Guild Wars 2

good power necro ,burn medi Dh , trap dh ,some druids and mes can kill thief if u know how to protect your self u can keep toe to toe vs pro thief i find out that dire condi chrono with stealth and blocks can keep pro thief at bay having stun break and good condi output and condi clear the stuns will be from steal and and basilisk venom and skill pistol 4 keep moving be ready to block n stealth if needed something like this
should work
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQRArf7elknhy0YjawTNwtGLvG1ZREEHHaAkTNR9wesLLA-TVyCQBASvgnU/BZHEglt/gEOBAZRpXiUCuRlBA4BAEAABYmBZGM0hO0hO0h2Mn5Mn5MnZpAWUaE-w

what kill me the most is good condi spam thief

Choppy.4183:

babazhook.6805:

There nothing wrong with a given class excelling in a certain area such as roaming and nothing wrong with that ability to roam being tied to superior mobility. This “bring them back down to everyone elses level” meme is just code speak to normalizing all classes so they play the same. It leads to sterile type gameplay.

Of course there’s nothing wrong with them excelling in a particular area, and nobody’s said otherwise.

The suggestion the gap in mobility between them and other classes along with them being compensated by giving more ability to survive in Zergs is doing exactly that and one you made. It very much like people wanting to “normalize” builds in WvW via an amulet system.

The end game of any such initiative would be to shift gameplay into the favor of classes with higher access to vitality, armor,invulns and passives some of which come out of the chute with those advantages before ever having invested in a skill or trait. Narrowing the gap when it comes to things like mobilty and or stealth in game terms is the same as increasing the relative effectiveness of abilities not related to the same.

babazhook.6805:

The suggestion the gap in mobility between them and other classes along with them being compensated by giving more ability to survive in Zergs is doing exactly that and one you made. It very much like people wanting to “normalize” builds in WvW via an amulet system.

I can’t speak for others, but you’ve misunderstood what I’ve said.

Choppy.4183:

All I was saying is that I see room to restore balance to the Force here. To keep thieves as a top class in small scale but still shaving into some of these aspects that give even mediocre players plenty of covers for bad play, and otherwise increasing the risk factor to better reflect the reward.

In addition, I’d like to see it get some more love to it’s more fun to play outside of small scale. It’s received some compared to the old days, but there’s room for more. That said, I’ve banged this drum before. My only reason for bringing it up in this conversation (which isn’t about that) is because people sometimes interpret calls for nerfs to thieves’ small scale combat game as a general claim that thieves are easy god mode at all times. I don’t think that that’s true, and I’d be surprised if anyone else with any time spent playing the game would either.

I’m fully comfortable with thieves being the most mobile class in the game, and they’ve always been so. But the extent to which they are now, relative to all other classes, puts it in a different league to the point that the risk:reward balance is way off in wvw. This is exacerbated by the newly HoT acquired defenses to being locked down and otherwise when they do choose to engage.

Similarly, I’m fine with thieves being less useful in terms of team support or in a zerg, but I don’t think there’s anything wrong with them getting a bump there to support broader utility for the class either. I agree with your previous post that HoT did indeed improve things for thieves on this front though.

But, no, I’ve no interest in homogenizing all classes, and I don’t have an issue with the general concept Anet has going for thieves either.

Choppy.4183:

babazhook.6805:

The suggestion the gap in mobility between them and other classes along with them being compensated by giving more ability to survive in Zergs is doing exactly that and one you made. It very much like people wanting to “normalize” builds in WvW via an amulet system.

I can’t speak for others, but you’ve misunderstood what I’ve said.

Choppy.4183:

All I was saying is that I see room to restore balance to the Force here. To keep thieves as a top class in small scale but still shaving into some of these aspects that give even mediocre players plenty of covers for bad play, and otherwise increasing the risk factor to better reflect the reward.

In addition, I’d like to see it get some more love to it’s more fun to play outside of small scale. It’s received some compared to the old days, but there’s room for more. That said, I’ve banged this drum before. My only reason for bringing it up in this conversation (which isn’t about that) is because people sometimes interpret calls for nerfs to thieves’ small scale combat game as a general claim that thieves are easy god mode at all times. I don’t think that that’s true, and I’d be surprised if anyone else with any time spent playing the game would either.

I’m fully comfortable with thieves being the most mobile class in the game, and they’ve always been so. But the extent to which they are now, relative to all other classes, puts it in a different league to the point that the risk:reward balance is way off in wvw. This is exacerbated by the newly HoT acquired defenses to being locked down and otherwise when they do choose to engage.

Similarly, I’m fine with thieves being less useful in terms of team support or in a zerg, but I don’t think there’s anything wrong with them getting a bump there to support broader utility for the class either. I agree with your previous post that HoT did indeed improve things for thieves on this front though.

But, no, I’ve no interest in homogenizing all classes, and I don’t have an issue with the general concept Anet has going for thieves either.

To expand upon this, HoT only did 2 things for preventing counters to thief.

1. Hot brought UC and thus complete immunity almost to soft CC which used to be a way to deal with the mobility gap between thieves and every other class.

2. As you and many others mentioned bandits defence which was on an even shorter cool down at HoT launch but still with trait is one of the lowest cool down if not the lowest cool down block in the game.

Thief since HoT has received numerous buffs right across the board as many players went from thief to rev as it offered a generally similar experience but better. They then massively nerfed Rev in some ways but buffed thief auto attacks to be some of if not the highest there are like for like. They then buffed signet of agility however only nerfed the dodge aspect in PvP where daredevil endurance gain was already considered far too much. Finally we had the buffs to shortbow, a weapon every thief already used for mobility, giving it more ranged cleave potential and much more damage.

I am all for the buffs to signet of agility and for the shortbow buffs as they were rather lack luster however many classes have been unilaterally nerfed while thief seems to only be nerfed in PvP mostly.

What this has done over time made thief the top dog for mobility while also giving it buffs to make it more useful in other areas, cleansing 3 conditions to allies with the signet and one of the best punishments for downstate with choking gas with 3 thieves about, as well as excellent cleave. This has only serves to widen the gap between how good a roamer thief is vs most other classes while making sure most mistakes aren’t punished while having increased their use when fighting scales up.

@babazhook, guard, rev, ele and necro are all excellent team fighters or zerging classes I wouldn’t ever call them homogeneous. I wouldn’t even use that word to describe the way different classes heal either mostly.

apharma.3741:

Choppy.4183:

babazhook.6805:

The suggestion the gap in mobility between them and other classes along with them being compensated by giving more ability to survive in Zergs is doing exactly that and one you made. It very much like people wanting to “normalize” builds in WvW via an amulet system.

I can’t speak for others, but you’ve misunderstood what I’ve said.

Choppy.4183:

All I was saying is that I see room to restore balance to the Force here. To keep thieves as a top class in small scale but still shaving into some of these aspects that give even mediocre players plenty of covers for bad play, and otherwise increasing the risk factor to better reflect the reward.

In addition, I’d like to see it get some more love to it’s more fun to play outside of small scale. It’s received some compared to the old days, but there’s room for more. That said, I’ve banged this drum before. My only reason for bringing it up in this conversation (which isn’t about that) is because people sometimes interpret calls for nerfs to thieves’ small scale combat game as a general claim that thieves are easy god mode at all times. I don’t think that that’s true, and I’d be surprised if anyone else with any time spent playing the game would either.

I’m fully comfortable with thieves being the most mobile class in the game, and they’ve always been so. But the extent to which they are now, relative to all other classes, puts it in a different league to the point that the risk:reward balance is way off in wvw. This is exacerbated by the newly HoT acquired defenses to being locked down and otherwise when they do choose to engage.

Similarly, I’m fine with thieves being less useful in terms of team support or in a zerg, but I don’t think there’s anything wrong with them getting a bump there to support broader utility for the class either. I agree with your previous post that HoT did indeed improve things for thieves on this front though.

But, no, I’ve no interest in homogenizing all classes, and I don’t have an issue with the general concept Anet has going for thieves either.

To expand upon this, HoT only did 2 things for preventing counters to thief.

1. Hot brought UC and thus complete immunity almost to soft CC which used to be a way to deal with the mobility gap between thieves and every other class.

2. As you and many others mentioned bandits defence which was on an even shorter cool down at HoT launch but still with trait is one of the lowest cool down if not the lowest cool down block in the game.

Thief since HoT has received numerous buffs right across the board as many players went from thief to rev as it offered a generally similar experience but better. They then massively nerfed Rev in some ways but buffed thief auto attacks to be some of if not the highest there are like for like. They then buffed signet of agility however only nerfed the dodge aspect in PvP where daredevil endurance gain was already considered far too much. Finally we had the buffs to shortbow, a weapon every thief already used for mobility, giving it more ranged cleave potential and much more damage.

I am all for the buffs to signet of agility and for the shortbow buffs as they were rather lack luster however many classes have been unilaterally nerfed while thief seems to only be nerfed in PvP mostly.

What this has done over time made thief the top dog for mobility while also giving it buffs to make it more useful in other areas, cleansing 3 conditions to allies with the signet and one of the best punishments for downstate with choking gas with 3 thieves about, as well as excellent cleave. This has only serves to widen the gap between how good a roamer thief is vs most other classes while making sure most mistakes aren’t punished while having increased their use when fighting scales up.

@babazhook, guard, rev, ele and necro are all excellent team fighters or zerging classes I wouldn’t ever call them homogeneous. I wouldn’t even use that word to describe the way different classes heal either mostly.

Bandits defense is NOT the lowest cooldown block in the game. There a number of blocks at 15 seconds and less available to other classes. Added to this when making such statements one has to consider the total NUMBER of blocks available to a given class. If class A has one single block that lasts 1.5 seconds every 15 seconds and class B has 5 seperate blocks that last 3 seconds and come around every 25 seconds Class B has much higher block access.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Block

The real value of BD is its stun break which on its own would be relatively weak but when married to that same block makes the skill very desirable. Stuns and Immobs kill a thief dead which is why so many invest in taking as many of those as possible.

As to being unable to IMMOB a thief simply not true as I immob them. You will find it very hard to immob a particular thief build that being Staff traited with UC. My own P/d thief and s/p thief both use immob on thieves that rely on UC as I really do not mind them burning a dodge to break the same.

babazhook.6805:

apharma.3741:

Choppy.4183:

babazhook.6805:

The suggestion the gap in mobility between them and other classes along with them being compensated by giving more ability to survive in Zergs is doing exactly that and one you made. It very much like people wanting to “normalize” builds in WvW via an amulet system.

I can’t speak for others, but you’ve misunderstood what I’ve said.

Choppy.4183:

All I was saying is that I see room to restore balance to the Force here. To keep thieves as a top class in small scale but still shaving into some of these aspects that give even mediocre players plenty of covers for bad play, and otherwise increasing the risk factor to better reflect the reward.

In addition, I’d like to see it get some more love to it’s more fun to play outside of small scale. It’s received some compared to the old days, but there’s room for more. That said, I’ve banged this drum before. My only reason for bringing it up in this conversation (which isn’t about that) is because people sometimes interpret calls for nerfs to thieves’ small scale combat game as a general claim that thieves are easy god mode at all times. I don’t think that that’s true, and I’d be surprised if anyone else with any time spent playing the game would either.

I’m fully comfortable with thieves being the most mobile class in the game, and they’ve always been so. But the extent to which they are now, relative to all other classes, puts it in a different league to the point that the risk:reward balance is way off in wvw. This is exacerbated by the newly HoT acquired defenses to being locked down and otherwise when they do choose to engage.

Similarly, I’m fine with thieves being less useful in terms of team support or in a zerg, but I don’t think there’s anything wrong with them getting a bump there to support broader utility for the class either. I agree with your previous post that HoT did indeed improve things for thieves on this front though.

But, no, I’ve no interest in homogenizing all classes, and I don’t have an issue with the general concept Anet has going for thieves either.

To expand upon this, HoT only did 2 things for preventing counters to thief.

1. Hot brought UC and thus complete immunity almost to soft CC which used to be a way to deal with the mobility gap between thieves and every other class.

2. As you and many others mentioned bandits defence which was on an even shorter cool down at HoT launch but still with trait is one of the lowest cool down if not the lowest cool down block in the game.

Thief since HoT has received numerous buffs right across the board as many players went from thief to rev as it offered a generally similar experience but better. They then massively nerfed Rev in some ways but buffed thief auto attacks to be some of if not the highest there are like for like. They then buffed signet of agility however only nerfed the dodge aspect in PvP where daredevil endurance gain was already considered far too much. Finally we had the buffs to shortbow, a weapon every thief already used for mobility, giving it more ranged cleave potential and much more damage.

I am all for the buffs to signet of agility and for the shortbow buffs as they were rather lack luster however many classes have been unilaterally nerfed while thief seems to only be nerfed in PvP mostly.

What this has done over time made thief the top dog for mobility while also giving it buffs to make it more useful in other areas, cleansing 3 conditions to allies with the signet and one of the best punishments for downstate with choking gas with 3 thieves about, as well as excellent cleave. This has only serves to widen the gap between how good a roamer thief is vs most other classes while making sure most mistakes aren’t punished while having increased their use when fighting scales up.

@babazhook, guard, rev, ele and necro are all excellent team fighters or zerging classes I wouldn’t ever call them homogeneous. I wouldn’t even use that word to describe the way different classes heal either mostly.

Bandits defense is NOT the lowest cooldown block in the game. There a number of blocks at 15 seconds and less available to other classes. Added to this when making such statements one has to consider the total NUMBER of blocks available to a given class. If class A has one single block that lasts 1.5 seconds every 15 seconds and class B has 5 seperate blocks that last 3 seconds and come around every 25 seconds Class B has much higher block access.

Actually there’s only 3 skills with a lower cool down on block and all of those only block a single attack and then have you stuck on a weird counter animation and 2 of them make you very vulnerable when doing the animation.

I mean if you really want to start saying you have to consider other blocks relative to the class you should also consider all defences accessable to the class as going on a tyraid about how guards have multiple 2s blocks on 25-30s cool downs paints a one-sided biased picture.

None however are stunbreaks out of the other blocks and bandits defence is also one of the lowest cool down stunbreaks in the game also. It’s that part that many refer to when they talk about the inability to punish poor play.

apharma.3741:

I mean if you really want to start saying you have to consider other blocks relative to the class you should also consider all defences accessable to the class

The short window of exposure to danger, and control over it, should also be factored in. If those other classes use a block or invuln, they’re generally going to be in combat when that defense is up. Not true with a thief unless they make mistakes.

Meaning, if tying up a thief once they’ve engaged in combat (which is something they generally have control over) is the manner in which they’re to be countered, then the class shouldn’t really have among the greatest access to defenses to that counter.

If those defenses are retained, then the ability to withdraw from combat and control engagement should probably be reduced, or damage, etc. Just standard risk:reward stuff, really, which should obviously apply to all other classes too (not just thief)

These types of threads never ceases to amuse me.

True that, would be cool though that anet knows that most of what’s said here is as valid as the sighting of a unicorn – and to be taken with a grain of salt. They have a tendency to cripple thief at the exact wrong points and making D/P only stronger.

I don’t really understand why thief have stealth because they survive better without stealth than many other classes.

I have said it before, the simple fact that they can dictate which classes/builds can roam or not means that they are stupid overtuned. They can easily delete so many builds from existence.

They totally dominate a whole gameplay aspect of WvW and that’s really unhealthy for the game.

babazhook.6805:

There nothing wrong with a given class excelling in a certain area such as roaming and nothing wrong with that ability to roam being tied to superior mobility. This “bring them back down to everyone elses level” meme is just code speak to normalizing all classes so they play the same. It leads to sterile type gameplay.

Ok, well, they excel at roaming so well that less players are roaming on other classes, it gets even cheesier when they start to run in packs. There’s a reason the roaming scene has been dying off, why players feel the need to run in packs or zergs these days. roaming isn’t fun especially against thieves.

XenesisII.1540:

babazhook.6805:

There nothing wrong with a given class excelling in a certain area such as roaming and nothing wrong with that ability to roam being tied to superior mobility. This “bring them back down to everyone elses level” meme is just code speak to normalizing all classes so they play the same. It leads to sterile type gameplay.

Ok, well, they excel at roaming so well that less players are roaming on other classes, it gets even cheesier when they start to run in packs. There’s a reason the roaming scene has been dying off, why players feel the need to run in packs or zergs these days. roaming isn’t fun especially against thieves.

There is a very large grain of truth to this. There is a much smaller variety of roaming classes now than used to be. It’s primarily thieves, mesmers, and rangers. Not that there are not other classes in good numbers, but primarily it seems to be those three I run into more than others. It could very well be that these classes aren’t part of GREN for zerging, and so these players develop more sneaky skills.

The funny thing is, I’m not that great of a thief, but other solo classes have run from me instead of engaging…if only they knew the truth!

I don’t have a hard time fighting Thieves when I’m playing my Engi, Guardian, Ranger, or Necro. Thieves are at a disadvantage against these 4 professions, using their most common builds. But apparently, being weak to half, and strong against the other half – is too much. Thieves have to become weak to all before some of these crybabies are satisfied.

There used to be a time when I would give constructive feedback to people’s complaints. But it is so apparent that the majority of people complaining about Thieves on this forum haven’t played a Thief in WvW, and are basing their whines on pure speculation and bias – there is no use in trying to show them why their opinions are so skewed and mostly incorrect.

They’re only coming here to look for other ill-informed forum-goers to complain in tandem.

Turk.5460:

Thieves are at a disadvantage against these 4 professions, using their most common builds. But apparently, being weak to half, and strong against the other half – is too much. Thieves have to become weak to all before some of these crybabies are satisfied.

“A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent’s argument, while refuting an argument that was not advanced by that opponent. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be “attacking a straw man”.

The typical straw man argument creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent’s proposition through the covert replacement of it with a different proposition (i.e., “stand up a straw man”) and the subsequent refutation of that false argument (“knock down a straw man”) instead of the opponent’s proposition.

This technique has been used throughout history in polemical debate, particularly in arguments about highly charged emotional issues where a fiery “battle” and the defeat of an “enemy” may be more valued than critical thinking or an understanding of both sides of the issue. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

His argument in regards to which professions thieves are “weak against” is kitten, lazy, wrong and generalistic, but it isn’t a straw man.

Uninformed people need to actually roll the class and play it for a little while before posting all these threads about how their dodges, stealth & mobility are overpowered. (I’m on the fence about mobility, but the dodges and stealth are ay okay in my book considering the crazy sustain and/or healing on other, tankier professions.

~ Kovu

Turk.5460:

I don’t have a hard time fighting Thieves when I’m playing my Engi, Guardian, Ranger, or Necro. Thieves are at a disadvantage against these 4 professions, using their most common builds. But apparently, being weak to half, and strong against the other half – is too much. Thieves have to become weak to all before some of these crybabies are satisfied.

There used to be a time when I would give constructive feedback to people’s complaints. But it is so apparent that the majority of people complaining about Thieves on this forum haven’t played a Thief in WvW, and are basing their whines on pure speculation and bias – there is no use in trying to show them why their opinions are so skewed and mostly incorrect.

They’re only coming here to look for other ill-informed forum-goers to complain in tandem.

I got 3k hours roaming as a thief in WvW since launch. Ever since HOT came it ruined the class, made it incredibly forgiving and easy to play (assuming marauder d/p DA/TR/DD Unhindered combatant sigil of draining hurr durr). I had to stop playing it since it no longer was a challenge, i could kitten anyone down with next to no effort, even DHs (simply switch mainhand dagger to pistol before engaging and unload/dodge spam ezpz). These kinds of builds are just too powerfull and unsportsmanlike.

Kovu.7560:

His argument in regards to which professions thieves are “weak against” is kitten, lazy, wrong and generalistic, but it isn’t a straw man.

It is to the extent that he portrayed what people have said here as a call to nerf thieves to be weak against everything. I don’t see that in anyone’s posts here.

I just find it very annoying when they roam in packs, so I could get locked down multiple times, then get vaulted on on my head for 15k crit despite having over 3300 armor.

When they’re by themselves, not much threat at all

Feelsbadman

Kaiser.9873:

XenesisII.1540:

babazhook.6805:

There nothing wrong with a given class excelling in a certain area such as roaming and nothing wrong with that ability to roam being tied to superior mobility. This “bring them back down to everyone elses level” meme is just code speak to normalizing all classes so they play the same. It leads to sterile type gameplay.

Ok, well, they excel at roaming so well that less players are roaming on other classes, it gets even cheesier when they start to run in packs. There’s a reason the roaming scene has been dying off, why players feel the need to run in packs or zergs these days. roaming isn’t fun especially against thieves.

There is a very large grain of truth to this. There is a much smaller variety of roaming classes now than used to be. It’s primarily thieves, mesmers, and rangers. Not that there are not other classes in good numbers, but primarily it seems to be those three I run into more than others. It could very well be that these classes aren’t part of GREN for zerging, and so these players develop more sneaky skills.

There no greater a “grain of truth to this” as there was when people claimed that all classes they met roaming were condition. I roamed for hours the past few days on my warrior and saw rangers, warriors, necroes thieves, mesmers Guardians and revs all roaming. The only classes I do not see are Engineers and Eles to any great extent when roaming. I have been playing WvW since well before HOT and do not notice less variety. The conversations as to what are the best roaming classes go back well before HOT and well before HOT there less of the classes deemed poorer at it that were roaming. Are there more thieves then any one other class? Most likley but go to the blob and there hardly any thieves and a whole lot of Necroes and Guardians.

The roaming scene being dead is also false as I do it 90 percent of the time. The state of roaming rates directly to the population size as the greater the population the less likely you are going to see single persons or groups of two or three roaming.

I see this on my own server where during prime time or reset it much harder to roam without running into larger groups of an enemy. The map is a finite size and when 60 are squeezed into it each doing there own thing that single roamer is bound to run into a larger group.

As to these “packs” roaming, I really think people overstate the number of theives in those packs as well. For over a week on Desert BL there was a group of enemy roaming camp to camp comprising of a DH, Ranger and Necro, with a wrrior with them time to time. The DH would pull into traps and the rest wail on you. They are just as deadly as any group of thieves and I did not feel the need to complain on the boards when i giot gnked by them because they caught me alone.

babazhook.6805:

Kaiser.9873:

There is a very large grain of truth to this. There is a much smaller variety of roaming classes now than used to be. It’s primarily thieves, mesmers, and rangers. Not that there are not other classes in good numbers, but primarily it seems to be those three I run into more than others. It could very well be that these classes aren’t part of GREN for zerging, and so these players develop more sneaky skills.

There no greater a “grain of truth to this” as there was when people claimed that all classes they met roaming were condition. I roamed for hours the past few days on my warrior and saw rangers, warriors, necroes thieves, mesmers Guardians and revs all roaming. The only classes I do not see are Engineers and Eles to any great extent when roaming. I have been playing WvW since well before HOT and do not notice less variety. The conversations as to what are the best roaming classes go back well before HOT and well before HOT there less of the classes deemed poorer at it that were roaming. Are there more thieves then any one other class? Most likley but go to the blob and there hardly any thieves and a whole lot of Necroes and Guardians.

I don’t think you get it. Whenever you make a build for roaming at the moment you make it with 2 things in mind.

1. Does it have enough condition cleanses to deal with the conditions being thrown around after HoT?

2. Is it weak to thieves?

In the latter part if your build is weak to thieves however isn’t that much stronger against anything else then you usually will not run it for anything other than lulz because as soon as you run into a half decent thief they will shut you down fast. There are many builds and classes that people cannot roam with because they are weak to thieves a good example is sc/f ele which is OK against a lot of builds but is very easy to kill for thieves.

babazhook.6805:

As to these “packs” roaming, I really think people overstate the number of theives in those packs as well. For over a week on Desert BL there was a group of enemy roaming camp to camp comprising of a DH, Ranger and Necro, with a wrrior with them time to time. The DH would pull into traps and the rest wail on you. They are just as deadly as any group of thieves and I did not feel the need to complain on the boards when i giot gnked by them because they caught me alone.

The difference is if I see those guys in the distance I have options. I can run away and assuming you’re not on necro you will match their speed or can stealth long enough that they can’t track you. You can engage or go to a more advantageous location, call in allies and get them to chase you around till your back up arrives. You can WP knowing you’re not likely to end up in combat before doing so or run to a nearby safe place like a tower and wait for them to pass.

Can the same be said of a couple of thieves? No. You cannot outrun the thieves, your best choice is to go to a safe location, WP or try to engage them if you know you can down one of them instantly as the other will likely run. Even WPing might not happen if they shadowstep+steal onto you after using shortbow to get you in combat and against 2 thieves that aren’t incompetent you will most likely lose as they will back off when low while the other keeps you in combat.

Are they better at what they do than any other class? I suppose so. All though, I notice a good amount of druids and mesmers alongside the thieves.
We simply notice them more now that the population went up and there no longer is a single thief but groups of roamers everywhere.

Next would be to complain about the 20/50 guardians in every single squad.

This game is so imbalanced that is a pain to play. Even in PvE at some extent.

The last mu, the whole week I roamed I met very few thives, who pretty much ran, the better thives trolled us for a while until 1 of us got bored where the thief would wp or go pve at camps, or he would try to 1v1 1 of us and do a bit more trolling.

This mu how ever I have seen a bit more thievs, but still did the same thing. Although this has been on dbl, the roamers I see or run it to are not thieves at all, just small grps ranging from 3-7 even see 10 person havoc grps and still they do not take thievs, they are heal bot eles chill mancers dh druids and beserkers. All this while also not touching my thief because they are just terrible at anything apart from gank +1/zergling, trolling and or running away, the realy good guys though can be pests but they are few and far between and spend most of their time at dueling spots. Another thing people miss is that probably lack the game playing a thief so they don’t understand it mechanicly, because I have played it for 3 years 90% fail to kill me on core warrior or scrapper though I do struggle on ele as I have yet to play them as much.

I find thives quite exciting to fight and you don’t even have to kill them to win, a lot of the time they will jump and port away which kinda tells me (I lost you won)

Dawdler.8521:

usnedward.9023:

I could switch things up and be better 1 v 1 but I hit the target and if the fight is longer than 30 seconds then I poof and run.

30s? Thats very sluggish, you need to up your game. Most thieves will run away after they realize they cant kill something in 2 seconds because that might actually be something dangerous.

HA!… I at least try. There are times 2s isn’t a bad idea but by 3s I realize it but I am downed :P

So where you find these bad thiefs anyways? Well maybe my high rank, op vanilla scepter/dagger ele spec and ultimate dominator title scare all scrubs away. I watch these videos where thief get killed and all those thiefs seems to be kind of stupid. Like hammer reve vs thief. I can understand that hammer reve land hit in 50 vs 50 fight, but 1 vs 1 fight it should be totally impossible if thief have normal reaction time.

The hit box on hammer aa is too large to side strafe like you can with bow, cor/drop the hammer and phase smash on the other hand are easy to dodge, though point blank cor can still land

apharma.3741:

babazhook.6805:

Kaiser.9873:

There is a very large grain of truth to this. There is a much smaller variety of roaming classes now than used to be. It’s primarily thieves, mesmers, and rangers. Not that there are not other classes in good numbers, but primarily it seems to be those three I run into more than others. It could very well be that these classes aren’t part of GREN for zerging, and so these players develop more sneaky skills.

There no greater a “grain of truth to this” as there was when people claimed that all classes they met roaming were condition. I roamed for hours the past few days on my warrior and saw rangers, warriors, necroes thieves, mesmers Guardians and revs all roaming. The only classes I do not see are Engineers and Eles to any great extent when roaming. I have been playing WvW since well before HOT and do not notice less variety. The conversations as to what are the best roaming classes go back well before HOT and well before HOT there less of the classes deemed poorer at it that were roaming. Are there more thieves then any one other class? Most likley but go to the blob and there hardly any thieves and a whole lot of Necroes and Guardians.

I don’t think you get it. Whenever you make a build for roaming at the moment you make it with 2 things in mind.

1. Does it have enough condition cleanses to deal with the conditions being thrown around after HoT?

2. Is it weak to thieves?

In the latter part if your build is weak to thieves however isn’t that much stronger against anything else then you usually will not run it for anything other than lulz because as soon as you run into a half decent thief they will shut you down fast. There are many builds and classes that people cannot roam with because they are weak to thieves a good example is sc/f ele which is OK against a lot of builds but is very easy to kill for thieves.

babazhook.6805:

As to these “packs” roaming, I really think people overstate the number of theives in those packs as well. For over a week on Desert BL there was a group of enemy roaming camp to camp comprising of a DH, Ranger and Necro, with a wrrior with them time to time. The DH would pull into traps and the rest wail on you. They are just as deadly as any group of thieves and I did not feel the need to complain on the boards when i giot gnked by them because they caught me alone.

The difference is if I see those guys in the distance I have options. I can run away and assuming you’re not on necro you will match their speed or can stealth long enough that they can’t track you. You can engage or go to a more advantageous location, call in allies and get them to chase you around till your back up arrives. You can WP knowing you’re not likely to end up in combat before doing so or run to a nearby safe place like a tower and wait for them to pass.

Can the same be said of a couple of thieves? No. You cannot outrun the thieves, your best choice is to go to a safe location, WP or try to engage them if you know you can down one of them instantly as the other will likely run. Even WPing might not happen if they shadowstep+steal onto you after using shortbow to get you in combat and against 2 thieves that aren’t incompetent you will most likely lose as they will back off when low while the other keeps you in combat.

Mesmers can group stealth and use that to approach enemy groups as well so as to gank. You are complaining about a mechanic , nothing more and it akin to my complaining about what happens in a zerg where certain mechanics are favored.

The complaint is made that Roaming dead because of thieves., Thieves could stealth and used more stealth from day one. More thieves used to use stealth as things like SR were a staple and since fallen to the wayside as it gets you killed more often then not. D/D used to be a preferred weapon set meaning to stealth at distance things like SR and BP used , where D/P took over due to stealth stacking

I spoke to that gank group that was raoming the BL I was on for the last weeks matchup. When I know these guys are operating , I am not going to bring in my necro or warrior or DH and try and solo flip camps. I am going to bring in my thief because he the best at avoiding such groups. Were I able to round up a group of like or equal size, to hunt them down, I would have likely stuck to my warrior. Why does it suddenly become an issue that a person uses a class best suited for a given scenario?

As to the the awareness of where/when you might be engaged by persons coming out of stealth , this is something any player can learn to do and should be able to anticipate. Circles show up on the map of enemies when they encounter sentries , which is why you flip those sentries. The camps near an enemy spawn are always more dangerous then those farther off. The order camps flip from or to a given side can show which direction the person(s) doing so will head next and finally it not REQUIRED that you avoid every enemy thief or group. You can engage those you meet one on one or roam with friends of your own and hunt them down. If all they do is run, so what? You can not complain that you can not run away from a thief group in one breath because of their higher mobility, and then in the next complain you can not catch them because they run away. They have more mobility. Deal with it. If you want to have that same mobility roll up a thief and you will have the same advantages and disadvantages of every other thief.

babazhook.6805:

Mesmers can group stealth and use that to approach enemy groups as well so as to gank. You are complaining about a mechanic , nothing more and it akin to my complaining about what happens in a zerg where certain mechanics are favored.

The complaint is made that Roaming dead because of thieves., Thieves could stealth and used more stealth from day one. More thieves used to use stealth as things like SR were a staple and since fallen to the wayside as it gets you killed more often then not. D/D used to be a preferred weapon set meaning to stealth at distance things like SR and BP used , where D/P took over due to stealth stacking

Several months ago when we were talking about traps I pointed out in post after post that once traps changed people would still complain about stealth because TRAPS were not the heart of the issue and that it was stealth stacking.

As to the the awareness of where/when you might be engaged by persons coming out of stealth , this is something any player can learn to do and should be able to anticipate. Circles show up on the map of enemies when they encounter sentries , which is why you flip those sentries. The camps near an enemy spawn are always more dangerous then those farther off. The order camps flip from or to a given side can show which direction the person(s) doing so will head next and finally it not REQUIRED that you avoid every enemy thief or group. You can engage those you meet one on one or roam with friends of your own and hunt them down. If all they do is run, so what? You can not complain that you can not run away from a thief group in one breath because of their higher mobility, and then in the next complain you can not catch them because they run away. They have more mobility. Deal with it. If you want to have that same mobility roll up a thief and you will have the same advantages and disadvantages of every other thief.

I think you meant this for the stealth thread as I was referencing build choices for most classes which mostly revolves around dealing with the increased amount of conditions around and that it can’t be weak to thieves as their mobility means you can’t escape if they have an advantageous fight vs you. To be clear I consider a build with decent stealth (?6s) to not be weak to thieves as you can usually ditch them if smart and see them on the horizon.

Then the second part was dealing with your example of DH, ranger and war. Even if they stealth up off smokescale smoke field when you see them smart players will know it’s their intention to gank you and run. The point I was making is most roaming builds have varying mobility but on the whole only thief is so much higher that running is not much of an option.

So I really don’t understand why you’re going on about stealth as it’s mobility that many have been mentioning including myself mostly. The guy originally said sneaky skills but that doesn’t always mean stealth.

babazhook.6805:

apharma.3741:

babazhook.6805:

Kaiser.9873:

There is a very large grain of truth to this. There is a much smaller variety of roaming classes now than used to be. It’s primarily thieves, mesmers, and rangers. Not that there are not other classes in good numbers, but primarily it seems to be those three I run into more than others. It could very well be that these classes aren’t part of GREN for zerging, and so these players develop more sneaky skills.

There no greater a “grain of truth to this” as there was when people claimed that all classes they met roaming were condition. I roamed for hours the past few days on my warrior and saw rangers, warriors, necroes thieves, mesmers Guardians and revs all roaming. The only classes I do not see are Engineers and Eles to any great extent when roaming. I have been playing WvW since well before HOT and do not notice less variety. The conversations as to what are the best roaming classes go back well before HOT and well before HOT there less of the classes deemed poorer at it that were roaming. Are there more thieves then any one other class? Most likley but go to the blob and there hardly any thieves and a whole lot of Necroes and Guardians.

I don’t think you get it. Whenever you make a build for roaming at the moment you make it with 2 things in mind.

1. Does it have enough condition cleanses to deal with the conditions being thrown around after HoT?

2. Is it weak to thieves?

In the latter part if your build is weak to thieves however isn’t that much stronger against anything else then you usually will not run it for anything other than lulz because as soon as you run into a half decent thief they will shut you down fast. There are many builds and classes that people cannot roam with because they are weak to thieves a good example is sc/f ele which is OK against a lot of builds but is very easy to kill for thieves.

babazhook.6805:

As to these “packs” roaming, I really think people overstate the number of theives in those packs as well. For over a week on Desert BL there was a group of enemy roaming camp to camp comprising of a DH, Ranger and Necro, with a wrrior with them time to time. The DH would pull into traps and the rest wail on you. They are just as deadly as any group of thieves and I did not feel the need to complain on the boards when i giot gnked by them because they caught me alone.

The difference is if I see those guys in the distance I have options. I can run away and assuming you’re not on necro you will match their speed or can stealth long enough that they can’t track you. You can engage or go to a more advantageous location, call in allies and get them to chase you around till your back up arrives. You can WP knowing you’re not likely to end up in combat before doing so or run to a nearby safe place like a tower and wait for them to pass.

Can the same be said of a couple of thieves? No. You cannot outrun the thieves, your best choice is to go to a safe location, WP or try to engage them if you know you can down one of them instantly as the other will likely run. Even WPing might not happen if they shadowstep+steal onto you after using shortbow to get you in combat and against 2 thieves that aren’t incompetent you will most likely lose as they will back off when low while the other keeps you in combat.

Mesmers can group stealth and use that to approach enemy groups as well so as to gank. You are complaining about a mechanic , nothing more and it akin to my complaining about what happens in a zerg where certain mechanics are favored.

The complaint is made that Roaming dead because of thieves., Thieves could stealth and used more stealth from day one. More thieves used to use stealth as things like SR were a staple and since fallen to the wayside as it gets you killed more often then not. D/D used to be a preferred weapon set meaning to stealth at distance things like SR and BP used , where D/P took over due to stealth stacking

I spoke to that gank group that was raoming the BL I was on for the last weeks matchup. When I know these guys are operating , I am not going to bring in my necro or warrior or DH and try and solo flip camps. I am going to bring in my theif because he the best at avoiding such groups. Were I able to round up a group of like or equal size, to hunt them down, I would have likley stuck to my warrior. Why does it suddenly become an issue that a person uses a class best suited for a given scenario?

As to the the awareness of where/when you might be engaged by persons coming out of stealth , this is something any player can learn to do and should be able to anticipate. Circles show up on the map of enemies when they encounter sentries , which is why you flip those sentries. The camps near an enemy spawn are always more dangerous then those farther off. The order camps flip from or to a given side can show which direction the person(s) doing so will head next and finally it not REQUIRED that you avoid every enemy thief or group. You can engage those you meet one on one or roam with friends of your own and hunt them down. If all they do is run, so what? You can not complain that you can not run away from a thief group in one breath because of their higher mobility, and then in the next complain you can not catch them because they run away. They have more mobility. Deal with it. If you want to have that same mobility roll up a thief and you will have the same advantages and disadvantages of every other thief.

You have to realize a certain someone wants thieves to lose almost all their stealth and lose Infiltrators Arrow, they have nothing more than a witch hunt for thieves, since apparently they can’t kill any thief of any skill level because Teef too stronk.

No matter the facts put out you can’t reason with people like that.

apharma.3741:

babazhook.6805:

Mesmers can group stealth and use that to approach enemy groups as well so as to gank. You are complaining about a mechanic , nothing more and it akin to my complaining about what happens in a zerg where certain mechanics are favored.

The complaint is made that Roaming dead because of thieves., Thieves could stealth and used more stealth from day one. More thieves used to use stealth as things like SR were a staple and since fallen to the wayside as it gets you killed more often then not. D/D used to be a preferred weapon set meaning to stealth at distance things like SR and BP used , where D/P took over due to stealth stacking

Several months ago when we were talking about traps I pointed out in post after post that once traps changed people would still complain about stealth because TRAPS were not the heart of the issue and that it was stealth stacking.

As to the the awareness of where/when you might be engaged by persons coming out of stealth , this is something any player can learn to do and should be able to anticipate. Circles show up on the map of enemies when they encounter sentries , which is why you flip those sentries. The camps near an enemy spawn are always more dangerous then those farther off. The order camps flip from or to a given side can show which direction the person(s) doing so will head next and finally it not REQUIRED that you avoid every enemy thief or group. You can engage those you meet one on one or roam with friends of your own and hunt them down. If all they do is run, so what? You can not complain that you can not run away from a thief group in one breath because of their higher mobility, and then in the next complain you can not catch them because they run away. They have more mobility. Deal with it. If you want to have that same mobility roll up a thief and you will have the same advantages and disadvantages of every other thief.

I think you meant this for the stealth thread as I was referencing build choices for most classes which mostly revolves around dealing with the increased amount of conditions around and that it can’t be weak to thieves as their mobility means you can’t escape if they have an advantageous fight vs you. To be clear I consider a build with decent stealth (?6s) to not be weak to thieves as you can usually ditch them if smart and see them on the horizon.

Then the second part was dealing with your example of DH, ranger and war. Even if they stealth up off smokescale smoke field when you see them smart players will know it’s their intention to gank you and run. The point I was making is most roaming builds have varying mobility but on the whole only thief is so much higher that running is not much of an option.

So I really don’t understand why you’re going on about stealth as it’s mobility that many have been mentioning including myself mostly. The guy originally said sneaky skills but that doesn’t always mean stealth.

If I see a “group of thieves” in the distance I can most certainly escape them and have. If I do not see them in the distance then they they are likely stealthed. Still that begs the question. If you see them in the distance how do you know they are all thieves?

babazhook.6805:

apharma.3741:

babazhook.6805:

Mesmers can group stealth and use that to approach enemy groups as well so as to gank. You are complaining about a mechanic , nothing more and it akin to my complaining about what happens in a zerg where certain mechanics are favored.

The complaint is made that Roaming dead because of thieves., Thieves could stealth and used more stealth from day one. More thieves used to use stealth as things like SR were a staple and since fallen to the wayside as it gets you killed more often then not. D/D used to be a preferred weapon set meaning to stealth at distance things like SR and BP used , where D/P took over due to stealth stacking

Several months ago when we were talking about traps I pointed out in post after post that once traps changed people would still complain about stealth because TRAPS were not the heart of the issue and that it was stealth stacking.

As to the the awareness of where/when you might be engaged by persons coming out of stealth , this is something any player can learn to do and should be able to anticipate. Circles show up on the map of enemies when they encounter sentries , which is why you flip those sentries. The camps near an enemy spawn are always more dangerous then those farther off. The order camps flip from or to a given side can show which direction the person(s) doing so will head next and finally it not REQUIRED that you avoid every enemy thief or group. You can engage those you meet one on one or roam with friends of your own and hunt them down. If all they do is run, so what? You can not complain that you can not run away from a thief group in one breath because of their higher mobility, and then in the next complain you can not catch them because they run away. They have more mobility. Deal with it. If you want to have that same mobility roll up a thief and you will have the same advantages and disadvantages of every other thief.

I think you meant this for the stealth thread as I was referencing build choices for most classes which mostly revolves around dealing with the increased amount of conditions around and that it can’t be weak to thieves as their mobility means you can’t escape if they have an advantageous fight vs you. To be clear I consider a build with decent stealth (?6s) to not be weak to thieves as you can usually ditch them if smart and see them on the horizon.

Then the second part was dealing with your example of DH, ranger and war. Even if they stealth up off smokescale smoke field when you see them smart players will know it’s their intention to gank you and run. The point I was making is most roaming builds have varying mobility but on the whole only thief is so much higher that running is not much of an option.

So I really don’t understand why you’re going on about stealth as it’s mobility that many have been mentioning including myself mostly. The guy originally said sneaky skills but that doesn’t always mean stealth.

If I see a “group of thieves” in the distance I can most certainly escape them and have. If I do not see them in the distance then they they are likely stealthed. Still that begs the question. If you see them in the distance how do you know they are all thieves?

I have standard models on now so you can tell just by looking as they all have the same standard look. Even before standard models if I saw player models ahead I would usually pause at max range, see how many and click them to see what classes they were. Thief gankers and most gankers generally don’t sit in stealth at high traffic spots, they will stealth when they see you but you usually see them too.

If you outrun the thieves then they chose not to chase you, though to be fair most thieves will chase a power mes even if they see them at max range.

Edit: I guess roaming on power mesmer has just made me very cautious as there’s a lot of classes that are bad fights so I pick and choose them carefully. I try to always check the fight I’m going into first unless there’s a friend who is asking for help.

Skada.1362:

… even DHs (simply switch mainhand dagger to pistol before engaging and unload/dodge spam ezpz).

So what did you do with those 3k hours of roaming? Farm the PvE creatures on the map? A blind mouse playing a DH could easily deal with a P/P thief…Oh you’re on EU, thats probably why you’re taking out DH’s “ezpz”

As far as the wood-tier people complaining about thieves being immune to their soft cc – most roaming thieves use Bounding Dodger. I’ve seen less than 5 weekly use Unhindered Combatant outside of combat. This is the same mindset of “everyone who roams is a dire/tb condition build!”

usnedward.9023:

Justine.6351:

Seriously, I don’t like thieves either but go play one.
Excellent ones are op,
All the rest get deleted,
There are so many bad thieves I could make a montage of me killing them with my hammer rev while solo roaming and even 1vX.

Edit:
Ya these are the typical thieves I run into,
https://youtu.be/gLYW9c30fdE
Not really seeing anything OP from them.

If they take damage,
You can kill it.

OH THANK GOD! The video wasn’t of me getting owned.

THAT WAS MY FIRST THOUGHT AS WELL! hahahaha. I swing between scorching an entire battlefield (very rare) and at the end surrounded by a pile of corpses while wondering wtf I just did and failing so horribly that I could have done better if I had played with my feet…with Crocs on. I’m certain I’ll never be caught on video during one of my good days.

My second thought was: I wish I knew how to play Revenant (and warrior, guardian, thief, ranger, engineer, elementalist, mesmer, and necro…) But mostly Rev after watching that vid.

A full soldier thief (Staff/SB), contested our EBG keep close to 5 hours, we managed in that time to kill him twice, he always came to the same spot, 5 hours to him having fun and getting pips while our keep was contested, so we don’t use our WP. we had to log our thieves and follow him and among many tries we managed to kill him those couple of times, and it was a waste of time. I stayed there just watching (7+ players) following him around trying to kill him, and always failing. He does no dmg, and can’t kill anyone, but our keep WP was useless for 5+ hours, now how is that fair?
no player, no matter how skilled he is, and no matter what class he uses can kill such thief, he always run away with tons of dodges and avoidance, and then come back to the same location within seconds.

well yes, what was said above is annoying but that should of been lesson learnt with in a few mins. he is only there to troll, deal’s do dmg and is of no threat apart from contesting the wp, he gained an ordinance with your server by forcing them to log on thief just to kill him which btw. wasted even more time and should of just bitten your tong, let him have his trolling no 2 and get bored of it. ofc thats easyer said then done when fresher people log on to see a troll thief doing that and not realising his play

Mirkava.8526:

A full soldier thief (Staff/SB), contested our EBG keep close to 5 hours, we managed in that time to kill him twice, he always came to the same spot, 5 hours to him having fun and getting pips while our keep was contested, so we don’t use our WP. we had to log our thieves and follow him and among many tries we managed to kill him those couple of times, and it was a waste of time. I stayed there just watching (7+ players) following him around trying to kill him, and always failing. He does no dmg, and can’t kill anyone, but our keep WP was useless for 5+ hours, now how is that fair?
no player, no matter how skilled he is, and no matter what class he uses can kill such thief, he always run away with tons of dodges and avoidance, and then come back to the same location within seconds.

I think I know who that is. He plagued our matchup for a few weeks. That seemed to be his full time job.

Mirkava.8526:

A full soldier thief (Staff/SB), contested our EBG keep close to 5 hours, we managed in that time to kill him twice, he always came to the same spot, 5 hours to him having fun and getting pips while our keep was contested, so we don’t use our WP. we had to log our thieves and follow him and among many tries we managed to kill him those couple of times, and it was a waste of time. I stayed there just watching (7+ players) following him around trying to kill him, and always failing. He does no dmg, and can’t kill anyone, but our keep WP was useless for 5+ hours, now how is that fair?
no player, no matter how skilled he is, and no matter what class he uses can kill such thief, he always run away with tons of dodges and avoidance, and then come back to the same location within seconds.

Forum-goers have suggested changes to the Objective Contesting mechanic endless times with no response from the developers. One day it will happen, we just have to wait for the right people to go through the employment turnstile.

Brigand.9502:

Mirkava.8526:

A full soldier thief (Staff/SB), contested our EBG keep close to 5 hours, we managed in that time to kill him twice, he always came to the same spot, 5 hours to him having fun and getting pips while our keep was contested, so we don’t use our WP. we had to log our thieves and follow him and among many tries we managed to kill him those couple of times, and it was a waste of time. I stayed there just watching (7+ players) following him around trying to kill him, and always failing. He does no dmg, and can’t kill anyone, but our keep WP was useless for 5+ hours, now how is that fair?
no player, no matter how skilled he is, and no matter what class he uses can kill such thief, he always run away with tons of dodges and avoidance, and then come back to the same location within seconds.

I think I know who that is. He plagued our matchup for a few weeks. That seemed to be his full time job.

hehe, we used to have a Nomad warrior back in EU servers s.sh/GS, and a lot of commanders used to donate gold for him, to spend that time contesting stuff. it seems yeah!! this thief full time job in NA server :P

Fat Disgrace.4275:

well yes, what was said above is annoying but that should of been lesson learnt with in a few mins. he is only there to troll, deal’s do dmg and is of no threat apart from contesting the wp, he gained an ordinance with your server by forcing them to log on thief just to kill him which btw. wasted even more time and should of just bitten your tong, let him have his trolling no 2 and get bored of it. ofc thats easyer said then done when fresher people log on to see a troll thief doing that and not realising his play

thats what we ended up doing, but it is really annoying to have a WP which u can’t use for 5 consecutive hours :P

usnedward.9023:

Dawdler.8521:

usnedward.9023:

I could switch things up and be better 1 v 1 but I hit the target and if the fight is longer than 30 seconds then I poof and run.

30s? Thats very sluggish, you need to up your game. Most thieves will run away after they realize they cant kill something in 2 seconds because that might actually be something dangerous.

HA!… I at least try. There are times 2s isn’t a bad idea but by 3s I realize it but I am downed :P

I am a fairly balls to the wall teef. I only run during a fight when either:

1.) I have 20 stacks of condis on me (usually thanks to a lucky condi bomb from a reaper)

2.) If I want to kite the opponent while I wait for certain CD’s to recharge

3.) If I need a moment to re-think my strat vs the opponent, where then I go back and change something up.

Even if the fight lasts more than 3 seconds, 99% of my fights i go all in until someone dies.

apharma.3741:

babazhook.6805:

apharma.3741:

babazhook.6805:

Mesmers can group stealth and use that to approach enemy groups as well so as to gank. You are complaining about a mechanic , nothing more and it akin to my complaining about what happens in a zerg where certain mechanics are favored.

The complaint is made that Roaming dead because of thieves., Thieves could stealth and used more stealth from day one. More thieves used to use stealth as things like SR were a staple and since fallen to the wayside as it gets you killed more often then not. D/D used to be a preferred weapon set meaning to stealth at distance things like SR and BP used , where D/P took over due to stealth stacking

Several months ago when we were talking about traps I pointed out in post after post that once traps changed people would still complain about stealth because TRAPS were not the heart of the issue and that it was stealth stacking.

As to the the awareness of where/when you might be engaged by persons coming out of stealth , this is something any player can learn to do and should be able to anticipate. Circles show up on the map of enemies when they encounter sentries , which is why you flip those sentries. The camps near an enemy spawn are always more dangerous then those farther off. The order camps flip from or to a given side can show which direction the person(s) doing so will head next and finally it not REQUIRED that you avoid every enemy thief or group. You can engage those you meet one on one or roam with friends of your own and hunt them down. If all they do is run, so what? You can not complain that you can not run away from a thief group in one breath because of their higher mobility, and then in the next complain you can not catch them because they run away. They have more mobility. Deal with it. If you want to have that same mobility roll up a thief and you will have the same advantages and disadvantages of every other thief.

I think you meant this for the stealth thread as I was referencing build choices for most classes which mostly revolves around dealing with the increased amount of conditions around and that it can’t be weak to thieves as their mobility means you can’t escape if they have an advantageous fight vs you. To be clear I consider a build with decent stealth (?6s) to not be weak to thieves as you can usually ditch them if smart and see them on the horizon.

Then the second part was dealing with your example of DH, ranger and war. Even if they stealth up off smokescale smoke field when you see them smart players will know it’s their intention to gank you and run. The point I was making is most roaming builds have varying mobility but on the whole only thief is so much higher that running is not much of an option.

So I really don’t understand why you’re going on about stealth as it’s mobility that many have been mentioning including myself mostly. The guy originally said sneaky skills but that doesn’t always mean stealth.

If I see a “group of thieves” in the distance I can most certainly escape them and have. If I do not see them in the distance then they they are likely stealthed. Still that begs the question. If you see them in the distance how do you know they are all thieves?

I have standard models on now so you can tell just by looking as they all have the same standard look. Even before standard models if I saw player models ahead I would usually pause at max range, see how many and click them to see what classes they were. Thief gankers and most gankers generally don’t sit in stealth at high traffic spots, they will stealth when they see you but you usually see them too.

If you outrun the thieves then they chose not to chase you, though to be fair most thieves will chase a power mes even if they see them at max range.

Edit: I guess roaming on power mesmer has just made me very cautious as there’s a lot of classes that are bad fights so I pick and choose them carefully. I try to always check the fight I’m going into first unless there’s a friend who is asking for help.

Well I just do not see those “packs” of thieves everyone claims roam the maps. That being the case one of the easiest ways a thief can get killed is leaving his group and running ahead to chase someone down. He tends to use all of his INI when doing so and is often dealt with handily by a warrior/DH who turns to face him when that INI gone and is finished off before the rest of the group catches up.

Here is the point. The thief having higher mobility adds diversity to the game. It is not a bad thing. As I exampled when I was on my warrior and was trying to flip those South camps against that roaming group of 3+ , it was relatively easy for them to catch and gank me. I was ineffective solo roaming. When I switched to thief it was harder for them to do the same. In having classes with these weaknesses and advantages I can better adapt to what the map situation warrants.

There is nothing wrong with having a class that can use its mobility to escape an outnumbered situation. Complaining about this is like some infantryman in the Napoleonic war complaining that the enemy Cavalry uses its superior speed to get away when they approach it.

Turk.5460:

Skada.1362:

… even DHs (simply switch mainhand dagger to pistol before engaging and unload/dodge spam ezpz).

So what did you do with those 3k hours of roaming? Farm the PvE creatures on the map? A blind mouse playing a DH could easily deal with a P/P thief…Oh you’re on EU, thats probably why you’re taking out DH’s “ezpz”

As far as the wood-tier people complaining about thieves being immune to their soft cc – most roaming thieves use Bounding Dodger. I’ve seen less than 5 weekly use Unhindered Combatant outside of combat. This is the same mindset of “everyone who roams is a dire/tb condition build!”

Yeah my Carrion thief kicking out 2.8 k PIs on an enemy was even QQed for wearing “dire armor”.

Mirkava.8526:

Fat Disgrace.4275:

well yes, what was said above is annoying but that should of been lesson learnt with in a few mins. he is only there to troll, deal’s do dmg and is of no threat apart from contesting the wp, he gained an ordinance with your server by forcing them to log on thief just to kill him which btw. wasted even more time and should of just bitten your tong, let him have his trolling no 2 and get bored of it. ofc thats easyer said then done when fresher people log on to see a troll thief doing that and not realising his play

thats what we ended up doing, but it is really annoying to have a WP which u can’t use for 5 consecutive hours :P

I think the only time the WP should be disabled is if siege used against part of the targets structure. Weapons should not damage doors at all.

babazhook.6805:

That being the case one of the easiest ways a thief can get killed is leaving his group and running ahead to chase someone down. He tends to use all of his INI when doing so and is often dealt with handily by a warrior/DH who turns to face him when that INI gone and is finished off before the rest of the group catches up.

That really depends on how dumb the thief is and how far they have to travel. Even when the thief has to travel a long distance, all they need to do is tie up the person combat with a shortbow until his buddies show up. If we’re only talking about <3k distance, the thief can have plenty of initiative left in the tank for the fight, or can tie things up (as previously mentioned) until he gets to a more comfortable amount of initiative.

If the thief burns all of his initiative just to get into melee range of an opponent, then, yeah, obviously he’s going to die. But then, if any other class puts all of their skills on cooldown before walking into a fight, they’re probably going to die too.

We should probably assume at least a basic degree of competence when discussing scenarios.

babazhook.6805:

Here is the point. The thief having higher mobility adds diversity to the game. It is not a bad thing. As I exampled when I was on my warrior and was trying to flip those South camps against that roaming group of 3+ , it was relatively easy for them to catch and gank me. I was ineffective solo roaming. When I switched to thief it was harder for them to do the same. In having classes with these weaknesses and advantages I can better adapt to what the map situation warrants.

There is nothing wrong with having a class that can use its mobility to escape an outnumbered situation. Complaining about this is like some infantryman in the Napoleonic war complaining that the enemy Cavalry uses its superior speed to get away when they approach it.

Of course thieves having higher mobility isn’t bad for the game, and there’s no reason why they shouldn’t have the best among all classes. But mobility is even better now for thieves than it was before HoT, whereas all other classes have converged. Warrior mobility has dropped from the #2 spot to somewhere in the middle, ranger’s gained a bunch, dh has improved, mesmer too, ele’s fine, engineer’s about the same, etc.

Everyone in the non-thief cohort is closer than they’ve ever been in terms of mobility, and thief is in another league altogether, afaik. Meanwhile, defenses against being locked down while engaged are far higher and the thief ranged game has improved (if needed).

What this adds up to in small scale combat, particularly roaming, is a class that largely has total control over engagements. That doesn’t mean it’s favoured to win every fight, only that the thief gets to choose which fights to have, to easily bail from fights gone bad, to try again repeatedly in hopes of better results (often based on an opponent’s skills being in cd), and the primary counter to this mobile game is another thief.

That’s just boring.

So yes, no problem with thieves being the most mobile class in the game, and no problem with them being, as far as this can be assessed, potentially the best roaming class in the game. But the risk:reward balance is way off when getting into a fight requires no real commitment or risk.

Choppy.4183:

babazhook.6805:

That being the case one of the easiest ways a thief can get killed is leaving his group and running ahead to chase someone down. He tends to use all of his INI when doing so and is often dealt with handily by a warrior/DH who turns to face him when that INI gone and is finished off before the rest of the group catches up.

That really depends on how dumb the thief is and how far they have to travel. Even when the thief has to travel a long distance, all they need to do is tie up the person combat with a shortbow until his buddies show up. If we’re only talking about <3k distance, the thief can have plenty of initiative left in the tank for the fight, or can tie things up (as previously mentioned) until he gets to a more comfortable amount of initiative.

If the thief burns all of his initiative just to get into melee range of an opponent, then, yeah, obviously he’s going to die. But then, if any other class puts all of their skills on cooldown before walking into a fight, they’re probably going to die too.

We should probably assume at least a basic degree of competence when discussing scenarios.

babazhook.6805:

Here is the point. The thief having higher mobility adds diversity to the game. It is not a bad thing. As I exampled when I was on my warrior and was trying to flip those South camps against that roaming group of 3+ , it was relatively easy for them to catch and gank me. I was ineffective solo roaming. When I switched to thief it was harder for them to do the same. In having classes with these weaknesses and advantages I can better adapt to what the map situation warrants.

There is nothing wrong with having a class that can use its mobility to escape an outnumbered situation. Complaining about this is like some infantryman in the Napoleonic war complaining that the enemy Cavalry uses its superior speed to get away when they approach it.

Of course thieves having higher mobility isn’t bad for the game, and there’s no reason why they shouldn’t have the best among all classes. But mobility is even better now for thieves than it was before HoT, whereas all other classes have converged. Warrior mobility has dropped from the #2 spot to somewhere in the middle, ranger’s gained a bunch, dh has improved, mesmer too, ele’s fine, engineer’s about the same, etc.

Everyone in the non-thief cohort is closer than they’ve ever been in terms of mobility, and thief is in another league altogether, afaik. Meanwhile, defenses against being locked down while engaged are far higher and the thief ranged game has improved (if needed).

What this adds up to in small scale combat, particularly roaming, is a class that largely has total control over engagements. That doesn’t mean it’s favoured to win every fight, only that the thief gets to choose which fights to have, to easily bail from fights gone bad, to try again repeatedly in hopes of better results (often based on an opponent’s skills being in cd), and the primary counter to this mobile game is another thief.

That’s just boring.

So yes, no problem with thieves being the most mobile class in the game, and no problem with them being, as far as this can be assessed, potentially the best roaming class in the game. But the risk:reward balance is way off when getting into a fight requires no real commitment or risk.

Oh nooooooooo!!!!! Thieves are good at one thing!!!!!

Sly.9518:

Oh nooooooooo!!!!! Thieves are good at one thing!!!!!

Only one? Bruh… you really need to have someone teach you how to teef.

Choppy.4183:

Sly.9518:

Oh nooooooooo!!!!! Thieves are good at one thing!!!!!

Only one? Bruh… you really need to have someone teach you how to teef.

Other classes can do better Burst, have almost as High stealth access and one class can almost rival mobility with the Meta Thief build on any flat surface sooo yeah…

But hey I’m not the one calling for nerfs to class or ever have soooo….. who needs to l2p??

Way too much burst damage and mobility. Seriously, does anyone at Arenanet test their stuff? My characters are taking 30k damage between backstab and cloak and dagger. This needs to be fixed yesterday, but here we are and nothing’s being done.