Guild Wars 2

Sly.9518:

Other classes can do better Burst, have almost as High stealth access and one class can almost rival mobility with the Meta Thief build on any flat surface sooo yeah…

But hey I’m not the one calling for nerfs to class or ever have soooo….. who needs to l2p??

You must be posting in the wrong thread. You seem confused.

Choppy.4183:

babazhook.6805:

That being the case one of the easiest ways a thief can get killed is leaving his group and running ahead to chase someone down. He tends to use all of his INI when doing so and is often dealt with handily by a warrior/DH who turns to face him when that INI gone and is finished off before the rest of the group catches up.

That really depends on how dumb the thief is and how far they have to travel. Even when the thief has to travel a long distance, all they need to do is tie up the person combat with a shortbow until his buddies show up. If we’re only talking about <3k distance, the thief can have plenty of initiative left in the tank for the fight, or can tie things up (as previously mentioned) until he gets to a more comfortable amount of initiative.

If the thief burns all of his initiative just to get into melee range of an opponent, then, yeah, obviously he’s going to die. But then, if any other class puts all of their skills on cooldown before walking into a fight, they’re probably going to die too.

We should probably assume at least a basic degree of competence when discussing scenarios.

babazhook.6805:

Here is the point. The thief having higher mobility adds diversity to the game. It is not a bad thing. As I exampled when I was on my warrior and was trying to flip those South camps against that roaming group of 3+ , it was relatively easy for them to catch and gank me. I was ineffective solo roaming. When I switched to thief it was harder for them to do the same. In having classes with these weaknesses and advantages I can better adapt to what the map situation warrants.

There is nothing wrong with having a class that can use its mobility to escape an outnumbered situation. Complaining about this is like some infantryman in the Napoleonic war complaining that the enemy Cavalry uses its superior speed to get away when they approach it.

Of course thieves having higher mobility isn’t bad for the game, and there’s no reason why they shouldn’t have the best among all classes. But mobility is even better now for thieves than it was before HoT, whereas all other classes have converged. Warrior mobility has dropped from the #2 spot to somewhere in the middle, ranger’s gained a bunch, dh has improved, mesmer too, ele’s fine, engineer’s about the same, etc.

Everyone in the non-thief cohort is closer than they’ve ever been in terms of mobility, and thief is in another league altogether, afaik. Meanwhile, defenses against being locked down while engaged are far higher and the thief ranged game has improved (if needed).

What this adds up to in small scale combat, particularly roaming, is a class that largely has total control over engagements. That doesn’t mean it’s favoured to win every fight, only that the thief gets to choose which fights to have, to easily bail from fights gone bad, to try again repeatedly in hopes of better results (often based on an opponent’s skills being in cd), and the primary counter to this mobile game is another thief.

That’s just boring.

So yes, no problem with thieves being the most mobile class in the game, and no problem with them being, as far as this can be assessed, potentially the best roaming class in the game. But the risk:reward balance is way off when getting into a fight requires no real commitment or risk.

see the thing is, I also play a warrior and I also play every other profession to a degree. When I play my warrior I know exactly what he can do relative to my thief. This includes parking himself IN The heart of a zerg with red circles all around and surviving. This includes shrugging off damage that would have my thief dead in an instant. it includes walking INTO a DH trap and wailing on the DH with unblockable attacks.

It includes pushing through arrow cart fire or chokepoints loaded with damging AOE that would have my theif dead in an instant.

All of that thief mobilty, be it the ports or dodges does not come close to providing the same ability to take damage that the warrior has. I am not asking that the warrior be brought closer to the thief in this regard. I am saying if I want to fight like a warrior, I can roll one up.

Your comittment risk argument really has little merit. This is not dueling. This is WvW where people play roles or classes that have specific advantages and the greater the variance in those abilities class to class the better it is for the game. Theif plays different then a warrior. I like that and no matter how much you try to say you are not asking they be pushed closer together, you are in fact doing that.

When you are talking risk reward you are simply wanting to shoehorn people in to one fighting style, that which you prefer which generally means once engaged you fight till one dead and I know full well that if mobilty, dodges and the ability to break off a fight diminished in a thief it is always going to be the thief ending up dead.

If you take into consideration that in WvW everyone plays Guardian, Warrior & Necro and that people Zerg/Blob FTW almost 98% of the time……what`s there to do for people wanting to play Thieves?
a. You get instantly kicked out of squads
b. Your health pool and damage mitigation is non-existant
Simply put without CC ignoring/speed/stealth you have no way to stay alive.
WvW has a flaw, a big flaw…….that flaw is people`s mentality and the fact that Anet supports Zerg/Blob gameplay and lagfest that follows.
Classes per say are not unbalanced it`s the way people use them, that creates problems.

Sly.9518:

Choppy.4183:

Sly.9518:

Oh nooooooooo!!!!! Thieves are good at one thing!!!!!

Only one? Bruh… you really need to have someone teach you how to teef.

Other classes can do better Burst, have almost as High stealth access and one class can almost rival mobility with the Meta Thief build on any flat surface sooo yeah…

But hey I’m not the one calling for nerfs to class or ever have soooo….. who needs to l2p??

Funny that thief , got all these mechanics in 1 package :P
Few lines before , you where saying that thief got only mobility

When the majority roaming area is filled with 1 class , then what you do ? Buff all the other classes or nerf the problematic ?
Powercreep like in the Core>Hot , or root out the problem ?

Do to me a favor and tell Cynz , that i will make conversations over conversations in the next x-pack :P
This is his/her/your mentality that created the HoT powercreep or whine about Bunker Meta …. 5 years now

Edit : Because i know where conversation will go and havea little amount of free time every day …

Do you remember the Necros Epidemic whine ?
That 5 Necros would aply damage to 25 ppl ? (even after after the unlimited target nerf)
Guess what 5x thiefs , using Stealth >Shadowstep >Steal(to cover more distance) > > 2x Vault (16k total damage) > teleport back does also ?
Or SR a group > move around them and attack them from behind , while they fight head on your zerg .

So lets not argue , why silly noob commanders dont want Thiefs in their group or that players will say anything to protect their class and createpowercreep in the next x-pack :P

Heatsink.5794:

Way too much burst damage and mobility. Seriously, does anyone at Arenanet test their stuff? My characters are taking 30k damage between backstab and cloak and dagger. This needs to be fixed yesterday, but here we are and nothing’s being done.

stop playing on up lvl’s then or put some armour on lol

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Sly.9518:

Choppy.4183:

Sly.9518:

Oh nooooooooo!!!!! Thieves are good at one thing!!!!!

Only one? Bruh… you really need to have someone teach you how to teef.

Other classes can do better Burst, have almost as High stealth access and one class can almost rival mobility with the Meta Thief build on any flat surface sooo yeah…

But hey I’m not the one calling for nerfs to class or ever have soooo….. who needs to l2p??

Funny that thief , got all these mechanics in 1 package :P
Few lines before , you where saying that thief got only mobility

When the majority roaming area is filled with 1 class , then what you do ? Buff all the other classes or nerf the problematic ?
Powercreep like in the Core>Hot , or root out the problem ?

Do to me a favor and tell Cynz , that i will make conversations over conversations in the next x-pack :P
This is his/her/your mentality that created the HoT powercreep or whine about Bunker Meta …. 5 years now

Edit : Because i know where conversation will go and havea little amount of free time every day …

Do you remember the Necros Epidemic whine ?
That 5 Necros would aply damage to 25 ppl ? (even after after the unlimited target nerf)
Guess what 5x thiefs , using Stealth >Shadowstep >Steal(to cover more distance) > > 2x Vault (16k total damage) > teleport back does also ?
Or SR a group > move around them and attack them from behind , while they fight head on your zerg .

So lets not argue , why silly noob commanders dont want Thiefs in their group or that players will say anything to protect their class and createpowercreep in the next x-pack :P

Bahahaha no this is a lot different than Epi, which was exponential damage growth in AoE.

And I don’t see these gangs of Only Thievs Roaming I have seen a healthy doseage of every class Roaming unlike in Zerg groups which is predominantly Only Guardian And Necro (the two classes played the most in WvW ) with the occasional Ele/Rev.

And omg now you are attempting to use SR one of the worst skills in game to make an argument on Teef OP lol. This is almost as bad as that player complaining about power D/D Thief saying it’s OP when it is the worst Thief build in game hahaha.

Again I have never called for any one class to get nerfed, again I think everything needs to be toned down at the same time, at lest I don’t cry “X” class OP, so again a lot of bads just need to l2p especially when balance over all between is pretty decent right now, they just need to remove all the mindless spam offfensive and defensive wise across the board.

Ah this is so much fun ahaha.

Again I have no problem fighting thieves or any other class, I don’t call for nerfs for any single Class, it’s called learning to get better. so……..

babazhook.6805:

When I play my warrior I know exactly what he can do relative to my thief. This includes parking himself IN The heart of a zerg with red circles all around and surviving.

Sure, and that’s why I’ve also said I’d like to see thief get some buffs so they aren’t (almost) shut out of that aspect of the game while remaining (arguably) the best roaming class (albeit with a better risk:reward balance there). Still with their own style, still with niches, just not extreme in either direction.

By this point, after all of these posts, you can’t possibly think I’m saying, “omfg!@#!! teefs nedz da nerfs from gawds mode now’s!!#!#!!”. I don’t think anyone on this thread had said anything close to that.

Choppy.4183:

What this adds up to in small scale combat, particularly roaming, is a class that largely has total control over engagements. That doesn’t mean it’s favoured to win every fight, only that the thief gets to choose which fights to have, to easily bail from fights gone bad, to try again repeatedly in hopes of better results (often based on an opponent’s skills being in cd), and the primary counter to this mobile game is another thief.

That’s just boring.

This is not a good enough reason for change. There are multiple other professions that can choose their engagements/disengage on the same level that a Thief can. In terms of disengage, Thief isn’t even the best at that, Mesmer is.

I can see how disengage/reset is frustrating and all, but in terms of equal skill, it is no more of an advantage to the Thief than it is to their opponent:

1. Walk the opposite direction to make the disengaged thief spend resources to catch up.
2. You are also out of combat the moment the Thief is, probably earlier due to almost every other profession having more on-demand condi cleanse.
3. The only opponent cooldowns that could possibly be a concern after a reset (Which means you won, by the way. you don’t have to double-down stomp your opponent to win) would be some elite skills. And even then they are very few, as you probably shouldn’t button-mash panic-spam your elite button upon the start of every engagement…

Regarding thieves contesting WPs – (There’s rangers and mesmers doing that as well, btw).
You have to give my first server a lot of credit: They used me as bait – never fails as I’m a thief magnet (as a thief myself – or maybe because my char is so pretty. And huge “you’re a Norn, right?” and the signet of shadows gives extra noob points). I wasn’t able to kill them in a 1o1 back then as I was a really noob (with a 250 ping) but the bait was enough for others to jump on them. So – if you’re not able to kill them you might be doing something wrong.

ETA: I was ok with that, btw. They really knew when and how to use my very special abilities

Choppy.4183:

babazhook.6805:

When I play my warrior I know exactly what he can do relative to my thief. This includes parking himself IN The heart of a zerg with red circles all around and surviving.

Sure, and that’s why I’ve also said I’d like to see thief get some buffs so they aren’t (almost) shut out of that aspect of the game while remaining (arguably) the best roaming class (albeit with a better risk:reward balance there). Still with their own style, still with niches, just not extreme in either direction.

By this point, after all of these posts, you can’t possibly think I’m saying, “omfg!@#!! teefs nedz da nerfs from gawds mode now’s!!#!#!!”. I don’t think anyone on this thread had said anything close to that.

The intent of these threads is exactly that or why else would people go out of their way to make them every second day. Why else would they use hyperbole and outright falsehoods in these threads such as “All roamers are thieves” or “Gangs of thieves are out there ganking everyone”. It the same type of thing that happens when people rail against condition builds claiming “everyone plays condition builds” and that "all roamers are condition builds " or that “everyone is in dire and can not be killed”. Do you really think they make these threads as an observation and are not desiring nerfs be made? Some of the same posters are in each and every thread about thieves be it ’too many dodges" or “they can get away and reset” to “they park and stealth” or they “gank me for a 10k backstab”.

When that hyperbole and exagerration and cherry picked examples are used in a given thread on any profession is used , there is an intent and it not just a toning down.

These threads do not speak to a specific skill or trait that might be toning down coupled with rationale for the same. They are generalized group whines directed towards an entire class and entire mechancis (such as stealth and dodge and burst) and are generally made by people who have never played a thief and just got killed by one in game.

I have no issues with a person filling a specific trait or ability overtuned and presenting their case for it. It the method being used to deliver this message that the problem.

Turk.5460:

This is not a good enough reason for change. There are multiple other professions that can choose their engagements/disengage on the same level that a Thief can. In terms of disengage, Thief isn’t even the best at that, Mesmer is.

What? Even Dragonhunter leaps can compete with Mesmer mobility.

1. Walk the opposite direction to make the disengaged thief spend resources to catch up.

Did you know that my standard DA/Tr/DD marauder (19K HP) teef deals 2K shortbow autos while I catch up using SB5 and evade/cripple using SB3 if my opponent decides to turn around again?

I’ve destroyed trailblazer/dire reapers only with shortbow autos and a few dodges.

2. You are also out of combat the moment the Thief is, probably earlier due to almost every other profession having more on-demand condi cleanse.

This is no lnger the case as ANet buffed agility signet to cleanse 3 damaging condis (after I cleansed the soft cc condis with a simple dodge) – IF I could not evadespam the condi application before. Condis are no threat at all for a teef these days.

I repeat: I’ve destroyed trailblazer/dire reapers only with shortbow autos and a few dodges.

a reset (Which means you won, by the way.)

What reward did you get after a teef reset to name it a “win”? This is no win. A reset is a part of the fight as the teef can re-engage you at any time.

If you feel like a winner after I disengaged and re-engaged 30 seconds later to gank, kill and loot you… well … that’s your personal definition.

Yeah, no. You’re not doing 2k autos on a dire/tb reaper.
I’m sorry that you don’t understand other professions abilities.

I’m also truly sorry that you seem to be fighting potatoes.

KrHome.1920:

Turk.5460:

This is not a good enough reason for change. There are multiple other professions that can choose their engagements/disengage on the same level that a Thief can. In terms of disengage, Thief isn’t even the best at that, Mesmer is.

What? Even Dragonhunter leaps can compete with Mesmer mobility.

1. Walk the opposite direction to make the disengaged thief spend resources to catch up.

Did you know that my standard DA/Tr/DD marauder (19K HP) teef deals 2K shortbow autos while I catch up using SB5 and evade/cripple using SB3 if my opponent decides to turn around again?

I’ve destroyed trailblazer/dire reapers only with shortbow autos and a few dodges.

2. You are also out of combat the moment the Thief is, probably earlier due to almost every other profession having more on-demand condi cleanse.

This is no lnger the case as ANet buffed agility signet to cleanse 3 damaging condis (after I cleansed the soft cc condis with a simple dodge) – IF I could not evadespam the condi application before. Condis are no threat at all for a teef these days.

I repeat: I’ve destroyed trailblazer/dire reapers only with shortbow autos and a few dodges.

a reset (Which means you won, by the way.)

What reward did you get after a teef reset to name it a “win”? This is no win. A reset is a part of the fight as the teef can re-engage you at any time.

If you feel like a winner after I disengaged and re-engaged 30 seconds later to gank, kill and loot you… well … that’s your personal definition.

What? Even Dragonhunter leaps can compete with Mesmer mobility. no it cant, can with #2 and utilty stun break skill though but they are not leaps. but its not just the mobilty its the stealthing and changeing direction of the mesmer that grants them out of combat, or enough distance to be in a safer spot

Did you know that my standard DA/Tr/DD marauder (19K HP) teef deals 2K shortbow autos while I catch up using SB5 and evade/cripple using SB3 if my opponent decides to turn around again? – no it cant unles the guy is full glass and is poisioned due to the dmg buff while posioned, i peak at 1.6k AA 2k with poision which on a normal build should of been cleansed ages ago any way.

the reapers you fought probably did not have any ranged weapons or were complete potatoes, or it was just a boring as hell MU for you tickerling them to death

the point is you should not be chasing the thief is he resets, when he does you stand still or open the gap even more and predict when he comes again, the ball now is in his court because he has used precocious skills and inative, you should know this after all since you play thief. its only when people get frustrated and chase them do they get rekt by the thief

You gais should like all play with ptv gear so them zerk thieves can stop destroying you.

babazhook.6805:

Choppy.4183:

babazhook.6805:

When I play my warrior I know exactly what he can do relative to my thief. This includes parking himself IN The heart of a zerg with red circles all around and surviving.

Sure, and that’s why I’ve also said I’d like to see thief get some buffs so they aren’t (almost) shut out of that aspect of the game while remaining (arguably) the best roaming class (albeit with a better risk:reward balance there). Still with their own style, still with niches, just not extreme in either direction.

By this point, after all of these posts, you can’t possibly think I’m saying, “omfg!@#!! teefs nedz da nerfs from gawds mode now’s!!#!#!!”. I don’t think anyone on this thread had said anything close to that.

The intent of these threads is exactly that or why else would people go out of their way to make them every second day. Why else would they use hyperbole and outright falsehoods in these threads such as “All roamers are thieves” or “Gangs of thieves are out there ganking everyone”. It the same type of thing that happens when people rail against condition builds claiming “everyone plays condition builds” and that "all roamers are condition builds " or that “everyone is in dire and can not be killed”. Do you really think they make these threads as an observation and are not desiring nerfs be made? Some of the same posters are in each and every thread about thieves be it ’too many dodges" or “they can get away and reset” to “they park and stealth” or they “gank me for a 10k backstab”.

When that hyperbole and exagerration and cherry picked examples are used in a given thread on any profession is used , there is an intent and it not just a toning down.

These threads do not speak to a specific skill or trait that might be toning down coupled with rationale for the same. They are generalized group whines directed towards an entire class and entire mechancis (such as stealth and dodge and burst) and are generally made by people who have never played a thief and just got killed by one in game.

I have no issues with a person filling a specific trait or ability overtuned and presenting their case for it. It the method being used to deliver this message that the problem.

See this would be fine if Choppy and I had not already explained carefully why the risk/reward balance is off citing 2 things in particular that makes thief less easy to counter than in days past. We then also explained how the shortbow buffs in conjunction with the aforementioned skill and trait have improved thief’s usefulness in larger scale fights. Yet you choose to make posts like this one quoted and generally boiling down your arguement to generalisations, like quoted above, that many aren’t using.

The original post was a bit whiney and he did use a generalisation of “3 or 4 players roaming are thieves” (which could be true for what he is seeing on his server in this match up for roaming though I doubt it) however he did point to thieves being heavily resistant to CC.

“Can somebody explain to me why the class with hilarious mobillity, a ton of dodges, a non telegraphed burst and easy access to stealth needs to be basically immune to CC? Nice work on the CD of Bandit’s Defense there balanceteam.”

The way I interpret this is a discussion of whether thief has effectively lost most of its weaknesses in roaming other than being one shot by another class or outlasted via excessive amounts of power mitigation (like RR berserkers).

No one can take you seriously when you want to completely kitten Thieves by removing There stealth access and Infiltrator Arrow as you have stated in other threads.

You just have issues with fighting any skill level Thief and want them nerfed so you can get free kills.

That free 8k backstab before fight even start really kittens me off. You really start every fight against thief 50% hp left.

Sly.9518:

No one can take you seriously when you want to completely kitten Thieves by removing There stealth access and Infiltrator Arrow as you have stated in other threads.

You just have issues with fighting any skill level Thief and want them nerfed so you can get free kills.

That isn’t even close to what I’ve said.

I’ve said I’d like to see infiltrators arrow be more useful as a skill and to lose its mobility which would make thief still more mobile but not to the insane level it is atm while giving them more use for SB.

I haven’t said anywhere about removing stealth from thief. I’ve said I’d remove stealth from mesmers nearly but not thieves unless something has been taken out of context.

I have said multiple times in multiple threads that I also want thieves to lose the spammy nature of their attacks and get stronger more impactful abilities but again this is something thief players largely ignore because a lot of them are biased and want to keep their easy mode.

So i main thief, is it easy to play?
Yes its as easy as a guardian in blob…

what yields me more bags/wxp/whatever your after(beside fun)
guardian hands down..

thief is good at what he does pick on loners dont really see what part we are OP.
cant even stick to a blob, cus
A) no1 wants us in squad
B) die in a flash of a second on a mistake)
C) have nothing to add to a party
D) skill lag really really helps a class that doesnt relay on 111111 and cant handle a single mistake in a blob.

KrHome.1920:

1. Walk the opposite direction to make the disengaged thief spend resources to catch up.

Did you know that my standard DA/Tr/DD marauder (19K HP) teef deals 2K shortbow autos while I catch up using SB5 and evade/cripple using SB3 if my opponent decides to turn around again?

how u got that much HP?
cus im full mar thief and i hit ~17k tops

Bigpapasmurf.5623:

usnedward.9023:

Dawdler.8521:

usnedward.9023:

I could switch things up and be better 1 v 1 but I hit the target and if the fight is longer than 30 seconds then I poof and run.

30s? Thats very sluggish, you need to up your game. Most thieves will run away after they realize they cant kill something in 2 seconds because that might actually be something dangerous.

HA!… I at least try. There are times 2s isn’t a bad idea but by 3s I realize it but I am downed :P

I am a fairly balls to the wall teef. I only run during a fight when either:

1.) I have 20 stacks of condis on me (usually thanks to a lucky condi bomb from a reaper)

2.) If I want to kite the opponent while I wait for certain CD’s to recharge

3.) If I need a moment to re-think my strat vs the opponent, where then I go back and change something up.

Even if the fight lasts more than 3 seconds, 99% of my fights i go all in until someone dies.

I am built more for some hard power damage quickly with a little toughness. If I can’t get them down within 20 to 30 seconds I already know I am up against a veteran who knows how to counter or condi cancer is getting to me So I know when to fight and when to leave. So many times I have taken down a necro and then get downed from the condi and then the race is on who can kill with downed skills first. lol

apharma.3741:

something thief players largely ignore because a lot of them are biased and want to keep their easy mode.

Or they just play their class and learn from each loss instead of crying on the forums to try to dumb down another class. What it sounds like you want is for the thief to lose initiative and mobility, so why not just delete the whole class so you can enjoy the game again?

Turk.5460:

This is not a good enough reason for change. There are multiple other professions that can choose their engagements/disengage on the same level that a Thief can. In terms of disengage, Thief isn’t even the best at that, Mesmer is.

I can see how disengage/reset is frustrating and all, but in terms of equal skill, it is no more of an advantage to the Thief than it is to their opponent:

1. Walk the opposite direction to make the disengaged thief spend resources to catch up.
2. You are also out of combat the moment the Thief is, probably earlier due to almost every other profession having more on-demand condi cleanse.
3. The only opponent cooldowns that could possibly be a concern after a reset (Which means you won, by the way. you don’t have to double-down stomp your opponent to win) would be some elite skills. And even then they are very few, as you probably shouldn’t button-mash panic-spam your elite button upon the start of every engagement…

You misunderstood my comment about thief control over engagements to be a complaint about disengage mechanics. I actually think thief should retain control over the initial engagement to the degree that it has historically, but its mobility and defense have brought it to a silly level in small scale.

And no class has even remotely the ability to choose engagements/disengagements that thief has. I’d love to hear which classes you think are on the same level level though.

That being said, your #1 claim is obviously untrue, to the extent that you mean it’s an actual defense. And management of opponent cooldowns is a standard tactic that doesn’t require a fight reset to accomplish. In fact, someone in this very thread described doing it. I wasn’t even griping about it either, just presenting it as one of the pieces to the thief’s seemingly excessive control over engagement and low risk:reward in small scale.

kash.9213:

apharma.3741:

something thief players largely ignore because a lot of them are biased and want to keep their easy mode.

Or they just play their class and learn from each loss instead of crying on the forums to try to dumb down another class. What it sounds like you want is for the thief to lose initiative and mobility, so why not just delete the whole class so you can enjoy the game again?

Your words not mine. I want thief to gain more viability in team fights, tone down its mobility to a level ahead but not stupidly more than others like now and reduce its spammy nature.

The part you carefully snipped out is refering to how many thief players forget me saying about buffing thief in other areas in a way for it to feel like a more well rounded class instead of this 1 trick pony it’s been for 5 years.

Choppy.4183:

And no class has even remotely the ability to choose engagements/disengagements that thief has. I’d love to hear which classes you think are on the same level level though.

Mesmer, Ranger and Engineer – in that order.

I’m not going to bother explaining why and what combos for each individual profession, since you seem to understand the fundamental concepts of this game.

I’ve said this before, and I guess I’ll throw it out there again onto the sea of deaf ears;

People here like to complain about anyone who has outplayed them, and immediately blame it on the profession/build/gear of their opponent. Thieves are preyed upon in this manner because the ones that have mastered the profession are the ones who frustrate you the most. Apparently any thief that is killed was only killed because they were inexperienced (in the eyes of the forum complaints).

If the same opponent has mastered a different profession and kills the same forum complainers, that forum complainer no doubt will cry just as hard about that profession. I.E. DH’s (albeit DH skill floor is much lower than Thief).

If it were so forgiving and easy, someone would have answered the call to record and post a video of them, a novice Thief, “easymoding” in WvW. Which we have requested whenever such accusations arise. Seriously, been asking for that type of proof for years, and none of the complainers have recorded anything to backup their asinine claims. Is it possibly because they were …gasp …wrong?

If every Thief you come across is wiping the floor with you, the problem isn’t the Thief, it’s you.

kash.9213:

apharma.3741:

something thief players largely ignore because a lot of them are biased and want to keep their easy mode.

Or they just play their class and learn from each loss instead of crying on the forums to try to dumb down another class. What it sounds like you want is for the thief to lose initiative and mobility, so why not just delete the whole class so you can enjoy the game again?

i struggle vs good power mesmers on my thief because i have not yet fully explored the class, nor learnt its gimmicks. how ever on core warrior, i am pretty much destroying the same power mesmer who gave my thief trouble.

people will just not learn to adapt and learnm other class’s but instead cry that they are OP

apharma.3741:

The part you carefully snipped out is refering to how many thief players forget me saying about buffing thief in other areas in a way for it to feel like a more well rounded class instead of this 1 trick pony it’s been for 5 years.

Your heart is in the right place, but your message is not. You mentioned that you advocate buffs – yet do not suggesting any actual buff, rather tossing out a vague “nerf x but give it something” (leaving that something up to anyone’s imagination.)

It is no better than just saying “nerf x.”

apharma.3741:

Sly.9518:

No one can take you seriously when you want to completely kitten Thieves by removing There stealth access and Infiltrator Arrow as you have stated in other threads.

You just have issues with fighting any skill level Thief and want them nerfed so you can get free kills.

That isn’t even close to what I’ve said.

I’ve said I’d like to see infiltrators arrow be more useful as a skill and to lose its mobility which would make thief still more mobile but not to the insane level it is atm while giving them more use for SB.

I haven’t said anywhere about removing stealth from thief. I’ve said I’d remove stealth from mesmers nearly but not thieves unless something has been taken out of context.

I have said multiple times in multiple threads that I also want thieves to lose the spammy nature of their attacks and get stronger more impactful abilities but again this is something thief players largely ignore because a lot of them are biased and want to keep their easy mode.

Really? Here is your full quote on Infiltrator Arrow, not once did you say it should be compensated for losing IA.. you only mention they need to make it a power or Condi weapon

apharma.3741:

OriOri.8724:

I know why it was used, but that doesn’t change anything. It is still a weapon that was already used 100% of the time on thieves. Dev time would have been better spent making SB5 on thieves not so mandatory for them somehow (preferably by adding some of that mobility to other weapon sets somehow). As it stands though, that was a straight up buff to every thief, since every single one will still be running SB all the time

I think their time would have been better spent removing shortbow 5 from the game entirely. Then figure out wtf they want shortbow to be, a condi or a power weapon and roll with that. Right now it’s some weird hybrid that doesn’t really do any of it well but makes up for it all with an insane gtfo button.

The bias shows in all of your posts about thieves, and yes in quite a few posts you complain about thief stealth and have said they need to lose a lot of access to it.

usnedward.9023:

Bigpapasmurf.5623:

usnedward.9023:

Dawdler.8521:

usnedward.9023:

I could switch things up and be better 1 v 1 but I hit the target and if the fight is longer than 30 seconds then I poof and run.

30s? Thats very sluggish, you need to up your game. Most thieves will run away after they realize they cant kill something in 2 seconds because that might actually be something dangerous.

HA!… I at least try. There are times 2s isn’t a bad idea but by 3s I realize it but I am downed :P

I am a fairly balls to the wall teef. I only run during a fight when either:

1.) I have 20 stacks of condis on me (usually thanks to a lucky condi bomb from a reaper)

2.) If I want to kite the opponent while I wait for certain CD’s to recharge

3.) If I need a moment to re-think my strat vs the opponent, where then I go back and change something up.

Even if the fight lasts more than 3 seconds, 99% of my fights i go all in until someone dies.

I am built more for some hard power damage quickly with a little toughness. If I can’t get them down within 20 to 30 seconds I already know I am up against a veteran who knows how to counter or condi cancer is getting to me So I know when to fight and when to leave. So many times I have taken down a necro and then get downed from the condi and then the race is on who can kill with downed skills first. lol

Im more Marauder/Valk set up myself. I hear ya tho about if a fight lasts more than 20-30s, either im bad or they are good lol. I recently found a VoD clip on my twitch (and clipped it..cause…ya know…science) where i was in a 2 minute fight vs a scrapper. Most thieves would have bailed, however like I said, im all in until someone dies (that and he was a kitten during other encounters…laughing/siege throwing whenever he caught me while outnumbering me).

First time I caught him in a 1v1 and it was that one (saw him again and 1v1 fight went a lot quicker…he wasn’t as good then). There isn’t a class I wont fight as I have beaten many of them all (feels good when you lose so many times you actually learn little tricks)

That being said, we (Thieves) have many counters. Condi sustain, ranged pressure, AoE, reflect (for most thieves) and other bursty builds. If we didnt have the stealth we do, or the mobility, we would still be almost free kills. Its an easy class to pick up, but not as much to do damage and survive where we are very squishy…

Granted I still think Bandits Defence needs a nerf/balancing as it needs it (and this coming from a teef)

Sly.9518:

apharma.3741:

Sly.9518:

No one can take you seriously when you want to completely kitten Thieves by removing There stealth access and Infiltrator Arrow as you have stated in other threads.

You just have issues with fighting any skill level Thief and want them nerfed so you can get free kills.

That isn’t even close to what I’ve said.

I’ve said I’d like to see infiltrators arrow be more useful as a skill and to lose its mobility which would make thief still more mobile but not to the insane level it is atm while giving them more use for SB.

I haven’t said anywhere about removing stealth from thief. I’ve said I’d remove stealth from mesmers nearly but not thieves unless something has been taken out of context.

I have said multiple times in multiple threads that I also want thieves to lose the spammy nature of their attacks and get stronger more impactful abilities but again this is something thief players largely ignore because a lot of them are biased and want to keep their easy mode.

Really? Here is your full quote on Infiltrator Arrow, not once did you say it should be compensated for losing IA.. you only mention they need to make it a power or Condi weapon

apharma.3741:

OriOri.8724:

I know why it was used, but that doesn’t change anything. It is still a weapon that was already used 100% of the time on thieves. Dev time would have been better spent making SB5 on thieves not so mandatory for them somehow (preferably by adding some of that mobility to other weapon sets somehow). As it stands though, that was a straight up buff to every thief, since every single one will still be running SB all the time

I think their time would have been better spent removing shortbow 5 from the game entirely. Then figure out wtf they want shortbow to be, a condi or a power weapon and roll with that. Right now it’s some weird hybrid that doesn’t really do any of it well but makes up for it all with an insane gtfo button.

The bias shows in all of your posts about thieves, and yes in quite a few posts you complain about thief stealth and have said they need to lose a lot of access to it.

Yes look at that quote and read it. Shortbow is still some weird hybrid weapon where it’s still used for pretty much 1 thing only, number 5. What that quote is saying is they should make it work as either a power or condi weapon, the roll with that part refering to making it good in that regard.

How is wanting shortbow to be an actually good weapon that you use because of all the skills there rather than something you spring out to run away being biased against thieves? I’m advocating for making the weapon useful yet all you guys see is nerf feef.

As for stealth, I’ve also complained about mesmer stealth in threads where it has been brought up saying that I want the trait the pledge to also be removed because its aweful. I say aweful because it gives stupidly high stealth with PU but is next to useless without.

I’ve also complained about CS but you don’t see people going around saying I’m complaining because a mesmer beat me with CS, why is that? Maybe because I actually give thought out reasons for why I dislike something.

Someone mentioned me being vague with “buff something else” this might be hard to guess but I play thief only enough for me to know how it works and to be able to counter it. It is not my main class so I don’t make suggestions as guess what? I’m not in a good place to know just how to do so. The signet of agility buff was on point….for PvP.

Sly.9518:

apharma.3741:

Sly.9518:

No one can take you seriously when you want to completely kitten Thieves by removing There stealth access and Infiltrator Arrow as you have stated in other threads.

You just have issues with fighting any skill level Thief and want them nerfed so you can get free kills.

That isn’t even close to what I’ve said.

I’ve said I’d like to see infiltrators arrow be more useful as a skill and to lose its mobility which would make thief still more mobile but not to the insane level it is atm while giving them more use for SB.

I haven’t said anywhere about removing stealth from thief. I’ve said I’d remove stealth from mesmers nearly but not thieves unless something has been taken out of context.

I have said multiple times in multiple threads that I also want thieves to lose the spammy nature of their attacks and get stronger more impactful abilities but again this is something thief players largely ignore because a lot of them are biased and want to keep their easy mode.

Really? Here is your full quote on Infiltrator Arrow, not once did you say it should be compensated for losing IA.. you only mention they need to make it a power or Condi weapon

apharma.3741:

OriOri.8724:

I know why it was used, but that doesn’t change anything. It is still a weapon that was already used 100% of the time on thieves. Dev time would have been better spent making SB5 on thieves not so mandatory for them somehow (preferably by adding some of that mobility to other weapon sets somehow). As it stands though, that was a straight up buff to every thief, since every single one will still be running SB all the time

I think their time would have been better spent removing shortbow 5 from the game entirely. Then figure out wtf they want shortbow to be, a condi or a power weapon and roll with that. Right now it’s some weird hybrid that doesn’t really do any of it well but makes up for it all with an insane gtfo button.

The bias shows in all of your posts about thieves, and yes in quite a few posts you complain about thief stealth and have said they need to lose a lot of access to it.

Well stealth could be something like this. 10 sec stealth, -50% movement speed in stealth and 2 min cool down. You would actually think when to use it.

Oh my, people having no idea from thief complaining about thief or explaining how they play.
Well ok.
I’m using SB and I use all skills of it – mainly skill number 4.
Rarely 5 in a fight for that I have 3 which is way more effective and costs less initative.
I really wish it were: “Hey, I’m Jesus from anet – I’m the new thief dev, please shut up and let me do my work”.

Sly.9518:

And I don’t see these gangs of Only Thievs Roaming I have seen a healthy doseage of every class Roaming unlike in Zerg groups which is predominantly Only Guardian And Necro (the two classes played the most in WvW ) with the occasional Ele/Rev.

When the class that is overrepressented , dont you think something is wrong ?
It showns the signs that something is easy to play with huge rewards ?

Sly.9518:

And omg now you are attempting to use SR one of the worst skills in game to make an argument on Teef OP lol. This is almost as bad as that player complaining about power D/D Thief saying it’s OP when it is the worst Thief build in game hahaha.

Yeah for a sec , i forget i spoke to tiefs
Let me clarify : If the commander is silly and dont need Thiefs in their zerg , you sould join a commander that ASSIGNS YOU TO JOIN SOME PARTY AND STEALTH YOUR TEAM8S AND ATTACK THEM FROM BEHIND WHILE THEYARE OQQUPIED

Sly.9518:

Again I have never called for any one class to get nerfed, again I think everything needs to be toned down at the same time, at lest I don’t cry “X” class OP, so again a lot of bads just need to l2p especially when balance over all between is pretty decent right now, they just need to remove all the mindless spam offfensive and defensive wise across the board.

When you have a class that is the epitomy of push too few bottuns and do huge damage and exept from other to bulk up and have more toughness/protection on them , while the enemy must have a diplomacy in science that have to calculator the right momment to exploit your character weakness (find the spamm evades frames) , while avoiding the hgh burst ……….then you are the one to say that they should nerf all the mindless spams , WHIULE YOU DEFEND THE CLASS ?

Sly.9518:

Ah this is so much fun ahaha.

I know :P
But why Cynz did you report me ?

Jana.6831:

Oh my, people having no idea from thief complaining about thief or explaining how they play.
Well ok.
I’m using SB and I use all skills of it – mainly skill number 4.
Rarely 5 in a fight for that I have 3 which is way more effective and costs less initative.
I really wish it were: “Hey, I’m Jesus from anet – I’m the new thief dev, please shut up and let me do my work”.

Now you do but before they buffed shortbow, when my quote is from, what did most people do with SB?

Use 4 and 2 on downed or 5 to get around quicker. Occasionally you would use 3 for a quick evade if out of dodges. The fact was most people rarely used shortbow for anything but infiltrators arrow.

Now with the buffs there’s more situations for using cluster bomb for its AoE damage and choking gas as an AoE interrupt and to get a damage increase from the auto while triggering the daze + PI.

apharma.3741:

babazhook.6805:

Choppy.4183:

babazhook.6805:

When I play my warrior I know exactly what he can do relative to my thief. This includes parking himself IN The heart of a zerg with red circles all around and surviving.

Sure, and that’s why I’ve also said I’d like to see thief get some buffs so they aren’t (almost) shut out of that aspect of the game while remaining (arguably) the best roaming class (albeit with a better risk:reward balance there). Still with their own style, still with niches, just not extreme in either direction.

By this point, after all of these posts, you can’t possibly think I’m saying, “omfg!@#!! teefs nedz da nerfs from gawds mode now’s!!#!#!!”. I don’t think anyone on this thread had said anything close to that.

The intent of these threads is exactly that or why else would people go out of their way to make them every second day. Why else would they use hyperbole and outright falsehoods in these threads such as “All roamers are thieves” or “Gangs of thieves are out there ganking everyone”. It the same type of thing that happens when people rail against condition builds claiming “everyone plays condition builds” and that "all roamers are condition builds " or that “everyone is in dire and can not be killed”. Do you really think they make these threads as an observation and are not desiring nerfs be made? Some of the same posters are in each and every thread about thieves be it ’too many dodges" or “they can get away and reset” to “they park and stealth” or they “gank me for a 10k backstab”.

When that hyperbole and exagerration and cherry picked examples are used in a given thread on any profession is used , there is an intent and it not just a toning down.

These threads do not speak to a specific skill or trait that might be toning down coupled with rationale for the same. They are generalized group whines directed towards an entire class and entire mechancis (such as stealth and dodge and burst) and are generally made by people who have never played a thief and just got killed by one in game.

I have no issues with a person filling a specific trait or ability overtuned and presenting their case for it. It the method being used to deliver this message that the problem.

See this would be fine if Choppy and I had not already explained carefully why the risk/reward balance is off citing 2 things in particular that makes thief less easy to counter than in days past. We then also explained how the shortbow buffs in conjunction with the aforementioned skill and trait have improved thief’s usefulness in larger scale fights. Yet you choose to make posts like this one quoted and generally boiling down your arguement to generalisations, like quoted above, that many aren’t using.

The original post was a bit whiney and he did use a generalisation of “3 or 4 players roaming are thieves” (which could be true for what he is seeing on his server in this match up for roaming though I doubt it) however he did point to thieves being heavily resistant to CC.

“Can somebody explain to me why the class with hilarious mobillity, a ton of dodges, a non telegraphed burst and easy access to stealth needs to be basically immune to CC? Nice work on the CD of Bandit’s Defense there balanceteam.”

The way I interpret this is a discussion of whether thief has effectively lost most of its weaknesses in roaming other than being one shot by another class or outlasted via excessive amounts of power mitigation (like RR berserkers).

Oh please. You are being less then transparent here. The OP on this thread which you joined in on complained about thief burst, dodges mobility and stealth all in one post. This literally everything that makes a thief a thief.

FROM GW2 profession page.

>>Experts at stealth and surprise, thieves move through the shadows, vanish into thin air, or steal items from their opponents and use them as weapons. Thieves practice an agile, acrobatic fighting style, which makes them very hard to hit.

>>To power their attacks, thieves rely on a resource called initiative, which regenerates over time. Weapon skills cost initiative points, but they have no recharge time, so thieves can use them back-to-back. This allows thieves to stay flexible and responsive in combat and unleash a rapid flurry of powerful attacks.

>>Thieves can enter stealth mode, which renders them invisible to enemies and replaces their first weapon skill with a stealth attack skill. They use these skills to stab foes in the back, get off a surprise shot, and more.

In short the complaint, like so many others in the NERF thief threads that are started every few days is a whine on EVERY facet of the thief as defined by their design intent.

A parallel of this woul be a person complaing that “warriors have access to too many weapons, have burst attacks that do too much damage , can take too many hits and regen health to fast and have too much stability , invulns and blocks and ability to shrug off damage” but this not about wanting them nerfed….really!

Sly.9518:

Junkpile.7439:

Sly.9518:

apharma.3741:

Sly.9518:

No one can take you seriously when you want to completely kitten Thieves by removing There stealth access and Infiltrator Arrow as you have stated in other threads.

You just have issues with fighting any skill level Thief and want them nerfed so you can get free kills.

That isn’t even close to what I’ve said.

I’ve said I’d like to see infiltrators arrow be more useful as a skill and to lose its mobility which would make thief still more mobile but not to the insane level it is atm while giving them more use for SB.

I haven’t said anywhere about removing stealth from thief. I’ve said I’d remove stealth from mesmers nearly but not thieves unless something has been taken out of context.

I have said multiple times in multiple threads that I also want thieves to lose the spammy nature of their attacks and get stronger more impactful abilities but again this is something thief players largely ignore because a lot of them are biased and want to keep their easy mode.

Really? Here is your full quote on Infiltrator Arrow, not once did you say it should be compensated for losing IA.. you only mention they need to make it a power or Condi weapon

apharma.3741:

OriOri.8724:

I know why it was used, but that doesn’t change anything. It is still a weapon that was already used 100% of the time on thieves. Dev time would have been better spent making SB5 on thieves not so mandatory for them somehow (preferably by adding some of that mobility to other weapon sets somehow). As it stands though, that was a straight up buff to every thief, since every single one will still be running SB all the time

I think their time would have been better spent removing shortbow 5 from the game entirely. Then figure out wtf they want shortbow to be, a condi or a power weapon and roll with that. Right now it’s some weird hybrid that doesn’t really do any of it well but makes up for it all with an insane gtfo button.

The bias shows in all of your posts about thieves, and yes in quite a few posts you complain about thief stealth and have said they need to lose a lot of access to it.

Well stealth could be something like this. 10 sec stealth, -50% movement speed in stealth and 2 min cool down. You would actually think when to use it.

Oh this is golden, 2min cd on stealth on a class that is Designed around stealth. Bahahaha. Maybe maybe if they removed Stealth from every class that wasn’t designed around having it.

On top of the 2 min you want it to give a speed reduction when Stealth doesn’t do anything besides force players to drop target, it’s not like it makes them invulnerable, it’s not like there aren’t Hard counters to Stealth, smh.

@apharma, you never said anything in that quote about buffing or compensating SB after completely removing IA you said either make it damage or Condi not a hybrid, nothing about compensating or bufffing it. And if they remove IA Thief would not even be close to having the best mobility like you claimed it would earlier in this thread, I can think of One class at the minimum that would outclass its mobility if IA was removed.

You haven’t thought anything through besides wanting nerfs.

Again can’t take what you say seriously.

What happens to your previous post to reduce the mindless defensive spams ?
Thief are has also on mobility/escape (just like your first posts) and evades/dodge
In different ppl , give different responses ? :P

apharma.3741:

Now you do but before they buffed shortbow, when my quote is from, what did most people do with SB?

I also used 4 mostly – reason: It’s the fastest skill – autotargeting went broken somewhen last fall, I switched to manual targeting which is a pain in zergs (the target just selected is out of range a split second afterwards), but I still mostly used 4 – as a valk/zerker thief with CS, not DA. Reason #2: Poison: 33% less heal and banner (which is rarely used nowadays) doesn’t work in it. Also a visible red circle enemies would probably back off from. Back in the day when people used combos and waterfields and firefields and when not everything was a blob I used mostly 2 which is way too slow now.
I use 5 when I’m traveling, very very rarely in a fight and if I’m using it I’m trying to get out of the fight. I’m not alone with that, btw.

apharma.3741:

Use 4 and 2 on downed or 5 to get around quicker. Occasionally you would use 3 for a quick evade if out of dodges. The fact was most people rarely used shortbow for anything but infiltrators arrow.

That is maybe true for pvp, for wvw it isn’t.

apharma.3741:

Now with the buffs there’s more situations for using cluster bomb for its AoE damage and choking gas as an AoE interrupt and to get a damage increase from the auto while triggering the daze + PI.

They could remove the daze entirely – it won’t get triggered in the scenario they thought it would, so that buff is useless to me, but causes problems in a 1vs1 situation/smallscale/pvp – I wouldn’t miss it.
What I want for SB is an option to make it autotarget while my other set still has manual targeting and a faster cluserbomb.

Your problems don’t stem from SB or SA or CnD – they’re D/P, /P + bound and daredevil – these things need to be nerfed. And some traits need to be looked into.

And as a indirect buff for all thieves I’d like some things to be reversed: the over access to reveal (I’ve got not chance against classes that use it), the over access to group stealth (that is destroying my CnD) and I want to have the stalth attack cooldown to be either scrapped or lowered because I’m basically shut down mid fight for 1,5 seconds.

For those who don’t know: I’m a D/D power thief with SB. The issues I listed (minus the stealth attack cooldown) are no issues for D/P which is the strongest set by far – even if my wishes were granted I wouldn’t be nearly as annoying as them. That’s why these vague accusations “nerf thief” aren’t doing any good. Really learn the class at least halfway and see yourself what exactly is op and then adress it.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Sly.9518:

Junkpile.7439:

Sly.9518:

apharma.3741:

Sly.9518:

No one can take you seriously when you want to completely kitten Thieves by removing There stealth access and Infiltrator Arrow as you have stated in other threads.

You just have issues with fighting any skill level Thief and want them nerfed so you can get free kills.

That isn’t even close to what I’ve said.

I’ve said I’d like to see infiltrators arrow be more useful as a skill and to lose its mobility which would make thief still more mobile but not to the insane level it is atm while giving them more use for SB.

I haven’t said anywhere about removing stealth from thief. I’ve said I’d remove stealth from mesmers nearly but not thieves unless something has been taken out of context.

I have said multiple times in multiple threads that I also want thieves to lose the spammy nature of their attacks and get stronger more impactful abilities but again this is something thief players largely ignore because a lot of them are biased and want to keep their easy mode.

Really? Here is your full quote on Infiltrator Arrow, not once did you say it should be compensated for losing IA.. you only mention they need to make it a power or Condi weapon

apharma.3741:

OriOri.8724:

I know why it was used, but that doesn’t change anything. It is still a weapon that was already used 100% of the time on thieves. Dev time would have been better spent making SB5 on thieves not so mandatory for them somehow (preferably by adding some of that mobility to other weapon sets somehow). As it stands though, that was a straight up buff to every thief, since every single one will still be running SB all the time

I think their time would have been better spent removing shortbow 5 from the game entirely. Then figure out wtf they want shortbow to be, a condi or a power weapon and roll with that. Right now it’s some weird hybrid that doesn’t really do any of it well but makes up for it all with an insane gtfo button.

The bias shows in all of your posts about thieves, and yes in quite a few posts you complain about thief stealth and have said they need to lose a lot of access to it.

Well stealth could be something like this. 10 sec stealth, -50% movement speed in stealth and 2 min cool down. You would actually think when to use it.

Oh this is golden, 2min cd on stealth on a class that is Designed around stealth. Bahahaha. Maybe maybe if they removed Stealth from every class that wasn’t designed around having it.

On top of the 2 min you want it to give a speed reduction when Stealth doesn’t do anything besides force players to drop target, it’s not like it makes them invulnerable, it’s not like there aren’t Hard counters to Stealth, smh.

@apharma, you never said anything in that quote about buffing or compensating SB after completely removing IA you said either make it damage or Condi not a hybrid, nothing about compensating or bufffing it. And if they remove IA Thief would not even be close to having the best mobility like you claimed it would earlier in this thread, I can think of One class at the minimum that would outclass its mobility if IA was removed.

You haven’t thought anything through besides wanting nerfs.

Again can’t take what you say seriously.

What happens to your previous post to reduce the mindless defensive spams ?
Thief are has also on mobility/escape (just like your first posts) and evades/dodge
In different ppl , give different responses ? :P

You might want to re-read my original reply to you, it said everything right now is in relative balance with each other, In this post you quoted I am responding to the people crying Nerf class X while leaving every other class alone.. I still stand on every class needs the mindless spam removed at the same time, I have not said anything that says otherwise, again look at the context of what you try to quote. And look again about the mobility thing you keep bringing up I was saying Thief was good in only one thing i.e. Roaming…… smh Context is key.

And if you want to look at Class oversaturation/representation the most oversaturated classes in WvW are Guardians and Necros, so by your logic they need the biggest nerf Hammer of all…….

And FYI I’m not the person you think I am, that person posts almost solely Woe is Teef, Teef so underpowered threads, which I have called gen out on it and also been Reported for calling them out on those types of posts, which I have never posted anything like that. And I don’t report people I like to let people see the ridiculous things others post, it makes more fun to point out people’s ridiculous claims.

You make this too easy.0

best way to phrase thief is if it can win a match up it normally destroy it. if cant fight it get totally owned. no middle ground for thief it either you know the match up your get face roll trying to fight something you cant probably why people hate thief.

let talk about dodge because a lot of people say"thief can dodge forever" is not true not even close with out gearing toward it.

thief with daredevil gain 3 dodges + 1.5 if they land steal dodge refund at 10 seconds pre dodge so at 3/4 eva pre dodge it .75 + .75 + .75 = 2.25 second of dmg immune – punish frame. so if we add signet of agility is most common source of extra dodge it another 1.5 dodges so that 2.25 + .75 + half a bar of endurance. = 3 seconds then apply weapon swap sigil of energy another + 1.5 dodges +75 3.75 + endurance we gain from 2 half .75 = 4.25 seconds.

goal to beating a thief that rely on dodging is force frame traps <- assuming most of you do not know of what a frame trap is. at start of a dodge roll and at end of a dodge roll there .15 frames where thief will be open to take dmg it very easy to time a instant skill to land in between though frames.

Let talk about movement. again thief is not a fast class at running away that not true at all. shadowstep used is most likely only def skill a thief run at all time will have a 1 minute CD. Yes it put him 1200 range away seem extramly far then he spam short bow to try escape But fact is if you can catch up to a thief after he used shadow step an land a simple stun 70% of the time he as good as dead.

Now to talk about stealth the way you deal with it is fire sigil will blow up on top of target it hit in stealth leaving a small aoe. <- do not want to use fire sigil k fine if you use a whirl finisher near a stealth player the whirl bolt auto trigger to that player an they will aim toward him. k do not want to use whirl finisher OR fir sigil it ok bro i feel you your weapon if you strike a target in stealth will slightly aim toward them from game auto correcting animation.

Thief is not a strong class it need to play to near prefect an still result in many losses if you lose to thief it not because you are bad most of the time it simply because it was a free match up.

as an example i will use rev vs short bow thief with 100% posion dur rev can cast anything but if it does not run ventari stance. fight will end in 10 seconds. because thief can 100% up time +5 stack of posion. <- is that OP ? no it simply understanding there nothing rev could do to fight it.

I agree with the advise that everyone should learn to play thief. The only thing that counters thief is another thief after all.

Sly.9518:

You might want to re-read my original reply to you, it said everything right now is in relative balance with each other, In this post you quoted I am responding to the people crying Nerf class X while leaving every other class alone.. I still stand on every class needs the mindless spam removed at the same time, I have not said anything that says otherwise, again look at the context of what you try to quote. And look again about the mobility thing you keep bringing up I was saying Thief was good in only one thing i.e. Roaming…… smh Context is key.

Then why did you did you dismiss the idea of Stealth having a 50% reduced movements speed from the previous poster ?
It doesnt fall to the mobility section

Also you told him that thiefs is a character based on mobility , which s not true because it has stealth + evades + dodges

Sly.9518:

And if you want to look at Class oversaturation/representation the most oversaturated classes in WvW are Guardians and Necros, so by your logic they need the biggest nerf Hammer of all…….

Which they get nerfed in every patch
By nerfing Necros , ppl are using Mesmers more, rather that beeing a character that stealth all the times in enemy keep and use portal for your zerg to inflitrate it

Sly.9518:

You make this too easy.0

By giving me the answers i want to hear and calming me , while use different tactics to the others ?
I will simply w8 and use the answers that you are telling to the others , to bicker with you .
Such as your moto : ‘’they should reduce the offesnive + defensive spam that is going around …. exept thief ….but i didnt say any specific class to be nerfed ’’ :P

Since 2012 the tievf community havent changed much :P
Its like i already know the answers to the test :P

apharma.3741:

OriOri.8724:

I know why it was used, but that doesn’t change anything. It is still a weapon that was already used 100% of the time on thieves. Dev time would have been better spent making SB5 on thieves not so mandatory for them somehow (preferably by adding some of that mobility to other weapon sets somehow). As it stands though, that was a straight up buff to every thief, since every single one will still be running SB all the time

I think their time would have been better spent removing shortbow 5 from the game entirely. Then figure out wtf they want shortbow to be, a condi or a power weapon and roll with that. Right now it’s some weird hybrid that doesn’t really do any of it well but makes up for it all with an insane gtfo button.

This is the full quote. It was a response to OriOri on how s/he wants IA to not be mandatory to which I said remove it and instead spend dev time on figuring out if shortbow should be a power or condi weapon and roll with that. To be clear for anyone that might not be familiar with that term, it means make a replacement skill that is in line with whatever they decide it should be. Maybe I should have put that in for when I get misquoted every other month?

@Babazhook, The point I was making was how Choppy and I made comments in a more constructive way but you still responded as if they were like the OP.

@Jana, I was wrong, I didn’t realise this quote was from when SB was buffed. Still a lot of the time I rarely saw thieves using more than 5 to run away before the buff unless someone was downed. Occasionally I’d meet a decent one who used it as ranged pressure but it was mainly auto attack.

I guess I have to also say this otherwise you’ll all think I’m complaining about the SB rework?
The only thing I think was overtuned on the SB rework is how CG dazes every 1s pulse if the poison stacks are at the threshold, though given what they did to it in PvP I wouldn’t want it to become like that in WvW either. Sly said after he was corrected that he thinks it should be a 2s pulse and that seems fair or make a player only able to be dazed by CG once every 2s regardless of source I dunno.

I still stand by my statement that I’d have preferred the devs not make SB a weird hybrid weapon (still has bleeds on cluterbomb detonation because…/shrug) and instead removed IA and then made the weapon either a condi or power weapon with an appropriate skill. As mentioned before thief is not my main so I wouldn’t know what to replace it with.

Turk.5460:

Choppy.4183:

And no class has even remotely the ability to choose engagements/disengagements that thief has. I’d love to hear which classes you think are on the same level level though.

Mesmer, Ranger and Engineer – in that order.

I’m not going to bother explaining why and what combos for each individual profession, since you seem to understand the fundamental concepts of this game.

I’ve said this before, and I guess I’ll throw it out there again onto the sea of deaf ears;

People here like to complain about anyone who has outplayed them, and immediately blame it on the profession/build/gear of their opponent. Thieves are preyed upon in this manner because the ones that have mastered the profession are the ones who frustrate you the most. Apparently any thief that is killed was only killed because they were inexperienced (in the eyes of the forum complaints).

If the same opponent has mastered a different profession and kills the same forum complainers, that forum complainer no doubt will cry just as hard about that profession. I.E. DH’s (albeit DH skill floor is much lower than Thief).

If it were so forgiving and easy, someone would have answered the call to record and post a video of them, a novice Thief, “easymoding” in WvW. Which we have requested whenever such accusations arise. Seriously, been asking for that type of proof for years, and none of the complainers have recorded anything to backup their asinine claims. Is it possibly because they were …gasp …wrong?

If every Thief you come across is wiping the floor with you, the problem isn’t the Thief, it’s you.

You must be confusing disengage with choosing engagements again if you think those the are on the same level as thief in this regard… and they don’t even have the same level of disengage either, unless you want to say all of them can successfully disengage from combat.

Beyond that, I really don’t know what to do with your comment. You make all sorts of allegations about my motivations that aren’t true for arguments that I haven’t actually made. I think I’ve been pretty clear and specific about the issues I’m raising and why, and they don’t remotely resemble your characterization of them.

Also, you’re living in a bubble if you think you have to be a master thief to be effective in small scale Wvw combat. Those days are long gone and most people freely acknowledge that.

Do you honestly think thief is hard to play in small scale Wvw?

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Sly.9518:

You might want to re-read my original reply to you, it said everything right now is in relative balance with each other, In this post you quoted I am responding to the people crying Nerf class X while leaving every other class alone.. I still stand on every class needs the mindless spam removed at the same time, I have not said anything that says otherwise, again look at the context of what you try to quote. And look again about the mobility thing you keep bringing up I was saying Thief was good in only one thing i.e. Roaming…… smh Context is key.

Then why did you did you dismiss the idea of Stealth having a 50% reduced movements speed from the previous poster ?
It doesnt fall to the mobility section

Also you told him that thiefs is a character based on mobility , which s not true because it has stealth + evades + dodges

Sly.9518:

And if you want to look at Class oversaturation/representation the most oversaturated classes in WvW are Guardians and Necros, so by your logic they need the biggest nerf Hammer of all…….

Which they get nerfed in every patch
By nerfing Necros , ppl are using Mesmers more, rather that beeing a character that stealth all the times in enemy keep and use portal for your zerg to inflitrate it

Sly.9518:

You make this too easy.0

By giving me the answers i want to hear and calming me , while use different tactics to the others ?
I will simply w8 and use the answers that you are telling to the others , to bicker with you .
Such as your moto : ‘’they should reduce the offesnive + defensive spam that is going around exept thief’’ :P

again re-read what I stated, you are just making yourself silly now. I have yet to contradict myself in anything I posted, unlike you.

This is like holding a dialogue with a Skritt, too funny, I don’t even have to do anything you do it all to yourself.

Here’s a TLDr of my points for you.

Everything currently is in relative balance, so crying for Nerfs on one class only is he wrong thing to do.

They need to nerf all the mindless spam across the board (that means Thief too, aka Reading comprehension)

Players cry for Nerfs to classes because they are bads, since everything is relatively balanced at this moment to each other.

I’m just pointing out the blatant bias.

Jana.6831:

And as a indirect buff for all thieves I’d like some things to be reversed: the over access to reveal (I’ve got not chance against classes that use it), the over access to group stealth (that is destroying my CnD) and I want to have the stalth attack cooldown to be either scrapped or lowered because I’m basically shut down mid fight for 1,5 seconds.

For those who don’t know: I’m a D/D power thief with SB. The issues I listed (minus the stealth attack cooldown) are no issues for D/P which is the strongest set by far – even if my wishes were granted I wouldn’t be nearly as annoying as them. That’s why these vague accusations “nerf thief” aren’t doing any good. Really learn the class at least halfway and see yourself what exactly is op and then adress it.

I feel you deserve a proper reply to this.

I think the main issue with the 1s ICD on stealth attacks is the aftercasts on the weapons and the cast times. It was ridiculous before the ICD was added to see block block block backstab but atm you only get 2 (3 if enemy doesn’t move) attempts usually from 4-5s of stealth. Maybe a better approach is to tighten up the cast/aftercasts and evaluate from there, the reason I suggest that is I play mes where aftercasts completely screw you over too and experienced those issues with thief the last few times I did stealth attacks.

Reveal on DH spear also screws me over too but generally I don’t find the reveals in the game too bad and that’s coming from a dom, duel, insp core mes. I don’t think DH needed it but so long as all tether skills keep the theme of revealing you I can at least find solace in consistency.

I get what you’re saying about group stealth as you rely on precast CnD+steal, BS to essentially do 15k+ damage and essentially insta down someone and having stealth when you do that removes BS. However I do think group stealth is a good aspect so long as it is not too long and has an appropriately balanced risk. This is why I’m not against PU mass invis as it’s a 2.5s channel on a 72s CD for 7.5s stealth or shadow refuge (traited or not) for 12-16s of usable stealth.

I think stealth as a mechanic needs changes though. The original inception was it wasn’t something to be maintained for long periods without considerable investment or co-ordination, I feel that has faded dramatically and that CS, stealth gyro and other stuff that’s silly won’t get changed.

Sly.9518:

again re-read what I stated, you are just making yourself silly now. I have yet to contradict myself in anything I posted, unlike you.

This is like holding a dialogue with a Skritt, too funny, I don’t even have to do anything you do it all to yourself.

Here’s a TLDr of my points for you.

Everything currently is in relative balance, so crying for Nerfs on one class only is he wrong thing to do.

They need to nerf all the mindless spam across the board (that means Thief too, aka Reading comprehension)

Players cry for Nerfs to classes because they are bads, since everything is relatively balanced at this moment to each other.

I’m just pointing out the blatant bias.

So we agreed here
Because its balanced then we dont need to nerf the mindless offensive + defensive spamm .
Any future x-pack spec then , it must have the same cappabilities .

Why i feel we are in the 2013 again ?
Buhhh …. i am immagining things ….

I’d be happy if they nerfed all the power/condi attacks that either do a lot that have under 1/2 cast times (as their listed ones). These ones are the ones I feel are the most overloaded.

Steal (Dem traits and instant cast, does waaaaay too many things for its CD and ease of use)
D/P maybe, it’s virtually in a good spot.
Thief Staff 3. Why take dash when you can go staff/acro and never run out of endurance if you’re gewd

Then nerf endurance gain (Signet of Agility lol), and we can probably start buffing things that aren’t D/P or Staff. Shortbow is probably fine at this point although it’s still weird and the 5 skill is still godtier.

Sword buffs. Mainhand chain is slow but powerful, endurance should be granted on the final hit similar to the dagger chain’s second hit (remove this please) since it is an acrobatics traitline weapon. Sword 2 should cleanse on both parts. S/D 3 needs to reverse the skill orders, having the roll set up the boon steal is weird. Make it offensive (the steal comes first), then reward you with a roll for landing it. S/P needs something, but it is a relatively superior version of 100 Blades although it does less damage, so buffing the damage is a good start. the thing has decent telegraph and the stun doesnt last the entire cleave duration anyways.

Utilities: Caltrops active should be like Caithe’s. Or at the very least cause torment (but not the trait roll caltrops). Scorpion Wire needs fixing. Distracting Daggers needs to not be completely and totally invalidated by OH Pistol (maybe applies interrupt effects twice? Or they automagically return for another use if you land an interrupt). Fist Flurry usability, make it always flip to Palm Strike. Palm Strike will apply Pulm stacks based off the number of fist flurry hits.

Some bonus mentions:
Reaper Rune + Deathly Chill Shouts (Really annoying, for everyone, condi meta op =P)
All Mesmer shatters. (Always have been annoying, power and condi variants, huge trait synergy)
Dragonhunter Longbow 3 (Unblockable, destroys projectiles, and can knockback)

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Sly.9518:

again re-read what I stated, you are just making yourself silly now. I have yet to contradict myself in anything I posted, unlike you.

This is like holding a dialogue with a Skritt, too funny, I don’t even have to do anything you do it all to yourself.

Here’s a TLDr of my points for you.

Everything currently is in relative balance, so crying for Nerfs on one class only is he wrong thing to do.

They need to nerf all the mindless spam across the board (that means Thief too, aka Reading comprehension)

Players cry for Nerfs to classes because they are bads, since everything is relatively balanced at this moment to each other.

I’m just pointing out the blatant bias.

So we agreed here
Because its balanced then we dont need to nerf the mindless offensive + defensive spamm .
Any future x-pack spec then , it must have the same cappabilities .

Why i feel we are in the 2013 again ?
Buhhh …. i am immagining things ….

The problem with the relative balance is the ridiculous amount of spam and skilled and mindless play on every class aka the Meta builds mainly, those need to be reduced across every class at the same time, to promote healthy and more skillful gameplay, they addressed this to an extent in Pvp and the majority of those need to make their way to WvW as well and would improve a lot of the gameplay.

The main thing i hate about thieves is that they can run away so easily when you beat them. When, I encounter them roaming in wvw, they come in and try to burst me down. Often, I’ll be able to counter that and start beating them down. Then they’ll stealth and run away. Then they’ll come back and we’ll repeat this same process over and over again. Occasionally, you can get lucky and burst them down or stack condis on them so they get downed, but not to the good ones.

I just wish they had a bigger penalty from losing an engagement other than being able to stealth, reset, and try again.

Kiroshima.8497:

Steal (Dem traits and instant cast, does waaaaay too many things for its CD and ease of use)

Untraited Steal is basically just any environmental item, it actually sucks having to stick to DA and Trickery to bring Steal sort of on par with other signature skills. It sucks, but I can appreciate having to make that decision in a build.

I like sword for the most part but agree it’s auto feels too slow. I don’t know about switching the animation order on Flanking Strike, at least in a team fight I can set up Flanking strike on any target and combo Larcenous Strike with another skill like Steal maybe. Also, the evade is more clutch than the boon steal and you’ll need FS untargeted in large fights at times, having to LS first would put that whole skill on the shelf I think.