Guild Wars 2

Solstace.2514:

I just wish they had a bigger penalty from losing an engagement other than being able to stealth, reset, and try again.

That’s called a handicap. If you want one try setting it up in a duel or something. If you didn’t kill them and they didn’t kill you then no one beat anyone. They’re probably going to check their combat log and come back at you or someone else later, you’re free to do the same.

Bigpapasmurf.5623:

usnedward.9023:

Bigpapasmurf.5623:

usnedward.9023:

Dawdler.8521:

usnedward.9023:

I could switch things up and be better 1 v 1 but I hit the target and if the fight is longer than 30 seconds then I poof and run.

30s? Thats very sluggish, you need to up your game. Most thieves will run away after they realize they cant kill something in 2 seconds because that might actually be something dangerous.

HA!… I at least try. There are times 2s isn’t a bad idea but by 3s I realize it but I am downed :P

I am a fairly balls to the wall teef. I only run during a fight when either:

1.) I have 20 stacks of condis on me (usually thanks to a lucky condi bomb from a reaper)

2.) If I want to kite the opponent while I wait for certain CD’s to recharge

3.) If I need a moment to re-think my strat vs the opponent, where then I go back and change something up.

Even if the fight lasts more than 3 seconds, 99% of my fights i go all in until someone dies.

I am built more for some hard power damage quickly with a little toughness. If I can’t get them down within 20 to 30 seconds I already know I am up against a veteran who knows how to counter or condi cancer is getting to me So I know when to fight and when to leave. So many times I have taken down a necro and then get downed from the condi and then the race is on who can kill with downed skills first. lol

Im more Marauder/Valk set up myself. I hear ya tho about if a fight lasts more than 20-30s, either im bad or they are good lol. I recently found a VoD clip on my twitch (and clipped it..cause…ya know…science) where i was in a 2 minute fight vs a scrapper. Most thieves would have bailed, however like I said, im all in until someone dies (that and he was a kitten during other encounters…laughing/siege throwing whenever he caught me while outnumbering me).

First time I caught him in a 1v1 and it was that one (saw him again and 1v1 fight went a lot quicker…he wasn’t as good then). There isn’t a class I wont fight as I have beaten many of them all (feels good when you lose so many times you actually learn little tricks)

That being said, we (Thieves) have many counters. Condi sustain, ranged pressure, AoE, reflect (for most thieves) and other bursty builds. If we didnt have the stealth we do, or the mobility, we would still be almost free kills. Its an easy class to pick up, but not as much to do damage and survive where we are very squishy…

Granted I still think Bandits Defence needs a nerf/balancing as it needs it (and this coming from a teef)

Since I am not really looking for a fight when playing my thief my secondary skills are set up mainly to poof in case of trouble. If one enemy comes into a camp to try and defend I will do my best to fight to the death. If two or more I may taunt them for a while just to see what I am up against.

I don’t think thief is that “easy” to pick up. Maybe in PvE mindless 111111 but I have learned so much from other thieves, videos and guides that the the thief can be pretty daunting to play. We don’t have the ability to track mouse pointer to secondary skills because when you look back you are downed so key binding (especially a gaming mouse) is important. PLUS I am not as young as I once was…lol

Choppy.4183:

Turk.5460:

Choppy.4183:

And no class has even remotely the ability to choose engagements/disengagements that thief has. I’d love to hear which classes you think are on the same level level though.

Mesmer, Ranger and Engineer – in that order.

I’m not going to bother explaining why and what combos for each individual profession, since you seem to understand the fundamental concepts of this game.

I’ve said this before, and I guess I’ll throw it out there again onto the sea of deaf ears;

People here like to complain about anyone who has outplayed them, and immediately blame it on the profession/build/gear of their opponent. Thieves are preyed upon in this manner because the ones that have mastered the profession are the ones who frustrate you the most. Apparently any thief that is killed was only killed because they were inexperienced (in the eyes of the forum complaints).

If the same opponent has mastered a different profession and kills the same forum complainers, that forum complainer no doubt will cry just as hard about that profession. I.E. DH’s (albeit DH skill floor is much lower than Thief).

If it were so forgiving and easy, someone would have answered the call to record and post a video of them, a novice Thief, “easymoding” in WvW. Which we have requested whenever such accusations arise. Seriously, been asking for that type of proof for years, and none of the complainers have recorded anything to backup their asinine claims. Is it possibly because they were …gasp …wrong?

If every Thief you come across is wiping the floor with you, the problem isn’t the Thief, it’s you.

You must be confusing disengage with choosing engagements again if you think those the are on the same level as thief in this regard… and they don’t even have the same level of disengage either, unless you want to say all of them can successfully disengage from combat.

Beyond that, I really don’t know what to do with your comment. You make all sorts of allegations about my motivations that aren’t true for arguments that I haven’t actually made. I think I’ve been pretty clear and specific about the issues I’m raising and why, and they don’t remotely resemble your characterization of them.

Also, you’re living in a bubble if you think you have to be a master thief to be effective in small scale Wvw combat. Those days are long gone and most people freely acknowledge that.

Do you honestly think thief is hard to play in small scale Wvw?

You’re delusional if you don’t think Mesmer and Ranger have similar disengage as Thief. Engineer is not far behind. And they can choose their engagements just as well based on the disengage options available to them. Those two concepts go hand in hand, they’re not separate. The rest of my post wasn’t directed at you, but merely the concept of this thread as a whole, which was…pretty obvious.

Thief hard to play? No, though it’s not as easy to play as Guardian, Warrior, Necro, or Ranger. Is it hard to be effective? Yes, more so than any other profession (other than core ele, probably) considering it’s hard to be effective if you’re dead. And that’s what inexperienced Thieves usually are in small scale – kissing the dirt.

You’re basing your arguments on the skill ceiling, where every profession is deadly and can survive/disengage in the hands of a skilled player. And even moreso, you’re coming across as though you’re pitting your skill-ceiling based argument against the idea that every Thief’s opponents are on their profession’s skill-floor…

Svarty.8019:

Sly.9518:

No one can take you seriously when you want to completely kitten Thieves by removing There stealth access and Infiltrator Arrow as you have stated in other threads.

You just have issues with fighting any skill level Thief and want them nerfed so you can get free kills.

Isn’t that a bit rich when thieves have so many free kills at the moment? And please refrain from mentioning my posting record in your reply. I would prefer that thief campaigners/apologists* address the issue rather than demonise critics of thieves.

Definition:
apologist
??p?l?d??st
noun
a person who offers an argument in defence of something controversial.
“an enthusiastic apologist for fascism in the 1920s”
synonyms: defender, supporter, upholder, advocate, proponent, exponent, propagandist, apostle, champion, backer, promoter, campaigner, spokesman, spokeswoman, spokesperson, speaker, arguer, enthusiast
“an apologist for hard-line government policies”

I had to include definition of apologist because last time I used the word I got infracted!

So many free kills? Bahahaha out of the Meta builds there are maybe (and that’s a big maybe) 2 free kills, that’s soooo many !!!!

Agains in the relative gamestate everything is balanced, and I only point out the ridiculous posts of players demonizing thieves asking for nerfs on everything thieves have, like a certain someone wink.

It’s funny to see the bias when a number of threads certain people threads keep getting moved into a certain class subforum and then they complain about them being moved there when the threads only revolve around that class getting nerfed.

Again all I have seen in most cases are bads not being able to handle a class and scream for nerfs while not touching anything else, when the relative gamestate is balanced.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Sly.9518:

So many free kills? Bahahaha out of the Meta builds there are maybe (and that’s a big maybe) 2 free kills, that’s soooo many !!!!

Agains in the relative gamestate everything is balanced, and I only point out the ridiculous posts of players demonizing thieves asking for nerfs on everything thieves have, like a certain someone wink.

It’s funny to see the bias when a number of threads certain people threads keep getting moved into a certain class subforum and then they complain about them being moved there when the threads only revolve around that class getting nerfed.

Again all I have seen in most cases are bads not being able to handle a class and scream for nerfs while not touching anything else, when the relative gamestate is balanced.

In which is balanced ?
Have ppl played any GvG or 1v1 tournaments lately , to showcase which classes are balanced or not ?
Or you are still hyperboalling to defend your class ?

When the majority of the ppl , targets a class ,,,
and that class is overrepressented in that targeted area 5 years now , then something wrong .

Where is the site where showcase which class is balanced in WvWvW ?

Cynz trust me :p It wont end well :P

I mean in WvW everything is relatively balanced (you know the gamemode we are talking about, bahahah bringing up 1v1 tournaments as if this is pvp which is completely separate balance) which you even agreed on (so funny you can’t even keep your story straight contradicting what you said in previous posts, see bolded below) the only thing needed is to remove all the spamminess and forgiveness of making errors on every class.

Oh you mean like the most over represented Guardians and Necros? The most played classes in WvW? Following your logic they still need to be nerfed into the ground, since they are still the two most played classes in the entire gamemode.

Again I’m not Cynz, and I disagree with a lot of what he/she/it says look at my post history at least of the posts not reported by he/she/it.

You really are making yourself silly.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Sly.9518:

again re-read what I stated, you are just making yourself silly now. I have yet to contradict myself in anything I posted, unlike you.

This is like holding a dialogue with a Skritt, too funny, I don’t even have to do anything you do it all to yourself.

Here’s a TLDr of my points for you.

Everything currently is in relative balance, so crying for Nerfs on one class only is he wrong thing to do.

They need to nerf all the mindless spam across the board (that means Thief too, aka Reading comprehension)

Players cry for Nerfs to classes because they are bads, since everything is relatively balanced at this moment to each other.

I’m just pointing out the blatant bias.

So we agreed here
Because its balanced then we dont need to nerf the mindless offensive + defensive spamm .
Any future x-pack spec then , it must have the same cappabilities .

Why i feel we are in the 2013 again ?
Buhhh …. i am immagining things ….

Again tell which site tells that everthying is relative Balanced ?
Any GvG sites with top GvGers that give their opinion on that , or what should be buffed ?
Or any High lvl WvWvw Streamer , that have made a megathread about it ?
Where do you get you immaginery stats ?

You are condracting yourself
You are telling me that thief has only Mobility and now suddenly he has also stealth .
And that stealth shouldnt have a 50% reduction speed or cd , like other MMos .
You dont give vallid reasons about that …. just a ‘’LoL ok hahah noob you dont know ’’ .

Why whine about reducing the defensive spam .. but dont look on your class first ?
How many post do you want to bicker with me to know your class better , and see that your class is the epitomy of spamm and has huge survibility ?

as far off :

Sly.9518:

Sly.9518:

again re-read what I stated, you are just making yourself silly now. I have yet to contradict myself in anything I posted, unlike you.

This is like holding a dialogue with a Skritt, too funny, I don’t even have to do anything you do it all to yourself.

Here’s a TLDr of my points for you.

Everything currently is in relative balance, so crying for Nerfs on one class only is he wrong thing to do.

They need to nerf all the mindless spam across the board (that means Thief too, aka Reading comprehension)

Players cry for Nerfs to classes because they are bads, since everything is relatively balanced at this moment to each other.

I’m just pointing out the blatant bias.

So we agreed here
Because its balanced then we dont need to nerf the mindless offensive + defensive spamm .
Any future x-pack spec then , it must have the same cappabilities .

Why i feel we are in the 2013 again ?
Buhhh …. i am immagining things ….

I knew that will say the basic : ‘’ yeah they should nerf all ’’ but in the next time you will keep defendind your class :P
Just like Cyzn or any Thief :P

Remember 2-3 posts before , that i said that you will ‘’try to calm me ’’? :P
Guess what opossite feeling , i feel now :P

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Again tell which site tells that everthying is relative Balanced ?
Any GvG sites with top GvGers that give their opinion on that , or what should be buffed ?
Or any High lvl WvWvw Streamer , that have make a thread about it ?
Where do you get you immaginery stats ?
TELLLL MEEE !!!!

You are condracting yourself
You are telling me that thief has only Mobility and now suddenly he has also stealth .
And that stealth shouldnt have a 50% reduction speed or cd , like other MMos .
You dont give vallid reasons about that …. just a ‘’LoL ok hahah noob you dont know ’’ .

Why whine about reducing the defensive spam .. but dont look on your class first ?
How many post do you want to bicker with me to know your class better , and see that your class is the epitomy of spamm and has huge survibility ?

You’re reaching for an argument you’re not going to find, you’re just crying hard at this point. If thieves had “huge survivability” then they’d have multiple places in every squad because according to these threads that survivability should go great with perma stealth and endless dodging on top of god like one shot damage. Get out of here with that nonsense, you know better.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Again tell which site tells that everthying is relative Balanced ?
Any GvG sites with top GvGers that give their opinion on that , or what should be buffed ?
Or any High lvl WvWvw Streamer , that have make a thread about it ?
Where do you get you immaginery stats ?
TELLLL MEEE !!!!

You are condracting yourself
You are telling me that thief has only Mobility and now suddenly he has also stealth .
And that stealth shouldnt have a 50% reduction speed or cd , like other MMos .
You dont give vallid reasons about that …. just a ‘’LoL ok hahah noob you dont know ’’ .

Why whine about reducing the defensive spam .. but dont look on your class first ?
How many post do you want to bicker with me to know your class better , and see that your class is the epitomy of spamm and has huge survibility ?

as far off :

Sly.9518:

Sly.9518:

again re-read what I stated, you are just making yourself silly now. I have yet to contradict myself in anything I posted, unlike you.

This is like holding a dialogue with a Skritt, too funny, I don’t even have to do anything you do it all to yourself.

Here’s a TLDr of my points for you.

Everything currently is in relative balance, so crying for Nerfs on one class only is he wrong thing to do.

They need to nerf all the mindless spam across the board (that means Thief too, aka Reading comprehension)

Players cry for Nerfs to classes because they are bads, since everything is relatively balanced at this moment to each other.

I’m just pointing out the blatant bias.

So we agreed here
Because its balanced then we dont need to nerf the mindless offensive + defensive spamm .
Any future x-pack spec then , it must have the same cappabilities .

Why i feel we are in the 2013 again ?
Buhhh …. i am immagining things ….

I knew that will say the basic : ‘’ yeah they should nerf all ’’ but in the next time you will keep defendind your class :P
Just like Cyzn or any Thief :P

Remember 2-3 posts before , that i said that you will ‘’try to calm me ’’? :P

You can tell relative balance by actually playing the game, the fact you need others to tell you something is balanced is lulz. And you tried using the lack of recent 1v1 pvp tournaments results/balance as an argument in regards to WvW balance state again lulz.

And no I never said they only have mobility go read again I stated they were only good at one thing Roaming, this is where reading comprehension becomes valuable.

And again using your logic Guardians and Necros need the biggest nerf Hammer in history since they are the two most over represented Classes in the whole WvW gamemode.

And that post you are trying to reference about the proposed 50% speed reduction I responded to that posters full proposal that they wanted Thief Stealth nerfed to the ground by making it. A 2 minute CD, 50% reduced speed and so on which in relation to Thief the only class designed around Stealth would ruin a huge portion of the class, but hey I read the posters full proposal instead of focising on one small portion of it.

Again I’m not the one whining about nerfing singular classes, which you keep bringing up and I have said all classes(this includes Thieves, again reading comprehension) need Spam both defensive and offensive to be nerfed.

Again try to be objective and impartial all I am doing is pointing out the huge bias certain players have.

Come up with real arguments especially ones relevant to the gamemode lulz 1v1 tournaments to determine balance, lulz.

kash.9213:

You’re reaching for an argument you’re not going to find, you’re just crying hard at this point. If thieves had “huge survivability” then they’d have multiple places in every squad because according to these threads that survivability should go great with perma stealth and endless dodging on top of god like one shot damage. Get out of here with that nonsense, you know better.

Silly commanders wants class that can offer protection + stability + healing + resistance or area denial skills (cannot cross over) . That why you see Guardinas + Eles + Revs in most areas .

From 2013- late 2014 , the Commaner loved the Smoke Bomb Enginners + Thiefs for the mass stealth and suprize attacks + escape .
Just like the Guardian’s Swiftness + Stuff (healing + denial) bot , stop to exixt , silly commander just want something more ’’balanced’’ and less hussle to cordinate 50 ppl .

As far you can see just like Raids they love ’’MORE’’ charactewrs that offer something to the party to increase the effectiveness even more .

When a class can spamm 1-2 attacks with huge amount of rewads and the ’’defender’’ is the one that need ‘’MORE SKILL AND KNOWLEGHE’’ to counter it …. then the first class is a easy to play and their Population must not try to be the ’’topdog’’ i na conversation , while i am having one with ‘’specific ppl’’

Sly.9518:

You can tell relative balance by actually playing the game, the fact you need others to tell you something is balanced is lulz. And you tried using the lack of recent 1v1 pvp tournaments results/balance as an argument in regards to WvW balance state again lulz.

How it is balanced again ?
When i roam the majority of the class i see is Thief .
If the majority of the population is using that class then , something is wrong .
Just like Revs in the start of HoT or any other Flavor of the Month Character .

Just like Necros and Guardians are the majority in Zergs , the majority is roamming is Thief .
Are agrreing with me that Necros and Guardians need nerf ? … or you are trying to sent me mix feeling that you dont want other classes to be nerfed ?

Sly.9518:

And no I never said they only have mobility go read again I stated they were only good at one thing Roaming, this is where reading comprehension becomes valuable.

Have you seen what you have typed ?
Even with 50% reduction in speed you CAN STILL ROAM … in stealth ….

Sly.9518:

Again try to be objective and impartial all I am doing is pointing out the huge bias certain players have.

Come up with real arguments especially ones relevant to the gamemode lulz 1v1 tournaments to determine balance, lulz.

You are telling me that everything is balanced …
I am trying to understand , based on who or when or what is balanced ?
Based on the Thief prospective is balanced ?
Something like 1-sided love … that is happening too often …sniff..

Turk.5460:

You’re delusional if you don’t think Mesmer and Ranger have similar disengage as Thief. Engineer is not far behind. And they can choose their engagements just as well based on the disengage options available to them.

You’ve seen a lot of mesmers, rangers, and engineers using their superior engage/disengage to toy with groups of 5+, have you? Leading them around ganking anyone who stays just a little too far from the rest?

Because I’ve seen thieves do that a bunch. Had a friend on another server doing that just the other day, even against non-scrubby players. He was laughing too because (1) he’s not a thief main, and (2) he want even using the acro line and was still effortlessly avoiding any real danger.

I don’t see other classes even close to having that level of engage/disengage. If you think otherwise, please describe exactly how a mesmer or ranger would be able to keep up what I just decided for five mins or so….

Choppy.4183:

You’ve seen a lot of mesmers, rangers, and engineers using their superior engage/disengage to toy with groups of 5+, have you? Leading them around ganking anyone who stays just a little too far from the rest?

Yes. Very often. But at that point, is it really the fault of those professions – or is it the groups of “5+” (I’m assuming some sort of group of disabled turnips) for deciding that they need to chase these professions around in circles every time they appear…

Choppy.4183:

I don’t see other classes even close to having that level of engage/disengage. If you think otherwise, please describe exactly how a mesmer or ranger would be able to keep up what I just decided for five mins or so….

Ah, so you don’t have a fundamental understanding of the other professions as I previously thought. No, I won’t tell you, I’m not going to hold your hand here. Go to those subforums and request someone to teach you basic evasive maneuvers of those professions.

Turk.5460:

Ah, so you don’t have a fundamental understanding of the other professions as I previously thought. No, I won’t tell you, I’m not going to hold your hand here. Go to those subforums and request someone to teach you basic evasive maneuvers of those professions.

You won’t say because you know it’s not true, and so do the rest of us.

Choppy.4183:

You won’t say because you know it’s not true, and so do the rest of us.

Sure, buddy. Whatever makes you feel better. I remember when I was new to WvW, too, you’ll learn the in’s and out’s eventually.

Turk.5460:

Choppy.4183:

You won’t say because you know it’s not true, and so do the rest of us.

Sure, buddy. Whatever makes you feel better. I remember when I was new to WvW, too, you’ll learn the in’s and out’s eventually.

I mean, you can try to pivot like that. But a lot of us in this thread have been playing the game for years, many of us know each other in game, and have fought each other in game as well. We all use different classes and we know the other classes too.

That you think you can make a claim that’s counter to what’s apparent, refuse to demonstrate your claim when asked, and then think anyone will believe your transparently obvious attempt to escape the box you’ve put yourself in is kind of hilarious.

Clearly this puts any sort of credibility people may have given your other posts in jeopardy. But, sure, try that tack.

Choppy.4183:

Turk.5460:

Choppy.4183:

You won’t say because you know it’s not true, and so do the rest of us.

Sure, buddy. Whatever makes you feel better. I remember when I was new to WvW, too, you’ll learn the in’s and out’s eventually.

I mean, you can try to pivot like that. But a lot of us in this thread have been playing the game for years, many of us know each other in game, and have fought each other in game as well. We all use different classes and we know the other classes too.

That you think you can make a claim that’s counter to what’s apparent, refuse to demonstrate your claim when asked, and then think anyone will believe your transparently obvious attempt to escape the box you’ve put yourself in is kind of hilarious.

Clearly this puts any sort of credibility people may have given your other posts in jeopardy. But, sure, try that tack.

I merely contested your initial claim of Thieves “being in another league altogether” in terms of mobility – a false claim that has since hindered your following arguments.

Do some popular Thief builds have better mobility than other popular profession builds? Yes. But “In another league” denotes extreme superiority. Which is not the case. Now, you, the one who initiated such exaggeration, try to play the “Burden of Proof” fallacy? Since you so enjoy logical fallacies, as you’ve copied/pasted (while somehow blatantly misunderstanding the meaning behind the fallacies) in the past, shouldn’t you be proving to us that other professions are so laughably inferior in terms of engage/disengage?

sheeeeet this forum post is funny AF meanwhile im just spamming moa on those annoying theives lol…..
from a mesmer POV thief really is not OP at all, they can be annoying AF but surely not OP.the only problem would be those nomad theives tagging keeps all around and peram stealth/evading, but then again that can easily be done with a nomad/minstrel mesmer or ranger as well.

Turk.5460:

I merely contested your initial claim of Thieves “being in another league altogether” in terms of mobility – a false claim that has since hindered your following arguments.

That’s a nice try, but strange given the post in question is on this very page. Here’s what was actually said, your claims in response to what I asked:

Turk.5460:

Choppy.4183:

You’ve seen a lot of mesmers, rangers, and engineers using their superior engage/disengage to toy with groups of 5+, have you? Leading them around ganking anyone who stays just a little too far from the rest?

Yes. Very often. But at that point, is it really the fault of those professions – or is it the groups of “5+” (I’m assuming some sort of group of disabled turnips) for deciding that they need to chase these professions around in circles every time they appear…

Choppy.4183:

I don’t see other classes even close to having that level of engage/disengage. If you think otherwise, please describe exactly how a mesmer or ranger would be able to keep up what I just decided for five mins or so….

Ah, so you don’t have a fundamental understanding of the other professions as I previously thought. No, I won’t tell you, I’m not going to hold your hand here. Go to those subforums and request someone to teach you basic evasive maneuvers of those professions.

So, please feel free to show how a mesmer or ranger can do what I described thieves doing for five mins or so. You said you’ve seen it plenty of times, and even that it’s super basic.

But, man, don’t try to shift into something else like we’ve all got the memories of gold fish. Even if we did, the post is just up the page… so that tactic’s just not going t work.

Oh you don’t like your own logic played against you? You made a claim first. Please provide proof of said claim, then I will happily appease your inexperienced curiosity of basic game-play mechanics and self-combo tecqniques.

I can see why you don’t quite understand what it takes to engage or disengage as a ranger or engineer, but downplaying mesmer, the most obvious one that supports my opposing viewpoint, speaks miles to your lack of understanding of what these professions can do.

After you provide the proof that no other profession even comes close to thieves engage/disengage, please humor me and tell me what profession you play. I’m going to guess Warrior.

I’m also curious as to how you think Thieves disengage. What are the skills you think they use to do so. I’m assuming you are in the mindset that they can disengage at will a vast majority of the time

Turk.5460:

Oh you don’t like your own logic played against you? You made a claim first. Please provide proof of said claim, then I will happily appease your inexperienced curiosity of basic game-play mechanics and self-combo tecqniques.

I did provide evidence in the post I quoted in my last comment. You confirmed that what I said occurs, but you denied it was remarkable by saying others do it, which I called you on.

If you don’t validate your claim that it’s unremarkable, then it stands as evidence (that you’ve acknowledged) to my earlier claim. Had you taken a different tack, like, “that’s totally impossible”, then you’d be in a better place than you are now.

You’re up.

I can’t wait to see the trash NA build of mimic, blink, portal, PU, mass invis, torch and trait line to reduce as many of those cool downs as possible in some weird build that wouldn’t even be half as effective at harrassment.

Yeah I understand what you mean OP. The stealth, mobility and constant evasion seems to be a bit much at times. I wouldn’t mind if they had all those things at the cost of damage, but actually they seem to be intertwined. My hope is that more and more the skills used in WvW, PvP and PvE will be separated. I can definitely emphathize with the need for constant evasion and stealth in PvE, because it saves me quite a bit on my thief! But in PvP and WvW, it just seems a bit over-abused and it really isnt fun.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

kash.9213:

You’re reaching for an argument you’re not going to find, you’re just crying hard at this point. If thieves had “huge survivability” then they’d have multiple places in every squad because according to these threads that survivability should go great with perma stealth and endless dodging on top of god like one shot damage. Get out of here with that nonsense, you know better.

Silly commanders wants class that can offer protection + stability + healing + resistance or area denial skills (cannot cross over) . That why you see Guardinas + Eles + Revs in most areas .

From 2013- late 2014 , the Commaner loved the Smoke Bomb Enginners + Thiefs for the mass stealth and suprize attacks + escape .
Just like the Guardian’s Swiftness + Stuff (healing + denial) bot , stop to exixt , silly commander just want something more ’’balanced’’ and less hussle to cordinate 50 ppl .

As far you can see just like Raids they love ’’MORE’’ charactewrs that offer something to the party to increase the effectiveness even more .

When a class can spamm 1-2 attacks with huge amount of rewads and the ’’defender’’ is the one that need ‘’MORE SKILL AND KNOWLEGHE’’ to counter it …. then the first class is a easy to play and their Population must not try to be the ’’topdog’’ i na conversation , while i am having one with ‘’specific ppl’’

What skill is this? Vualt??please don’t say that lol.

Fat Disgrace.4275:

What skill is this? Vualt??please don’t say that lol.

Vault + Bound
Infiltrator’s Strike + auto attacks (i like one , like a ninja!)
Death Blossom + Impaling lotus + Uncatchable
Pulmonary Impact + Headshot
Pulmonary Impact + Pressure striking (x3 torments on interupt) + Headshot (Rampage Gear)
S/D in general
Condi Thief in general
The one spec got nerfed because of Raids … the Condition one that was permantly stealth

And most of the aboves have Guarded Initiation + Pain respond + Weakening Strikes , and if they dont choose PI > they get Escapist Absolution + Assasin Reward + Driven Fortitude + Signet of Malice (even if they choose on to get some Toughness from various ammount of gear)

Because of the Gear and the Food , everything is ’’balanced’’ :PPPPP
The one that is left is to copy these traits to the rest of the classes , so the whines stops or nerf everything :p
I am trtying to figure out what the Thief community wants really .
I cant understand by the responses ‘’yeah ok haahah l2p’’

Because i have seen posters claiming Thiefs to not have been used in Season 1+2 in PvP …. IN THE TOURNAMENTS …. (ppl needed 1 year after the nerf of Revs to found out these specs) …..
but that was the Core’s acceptance that everything is balanced and they should move on with HoT to have the same attack + defensive capabilities , for a fun + fast based pvp . So the only thing is left atm , is to give these traits among classes , and i will try to find ppl that ‘’will whine in the future about that , while they used to defend it ’’ :P

Killthehealersffs.8940:

S/D in general

Its like everyone whining in this thread plays one, and only one profession. No wonder you guys have problems with Thieves. You haven’t had the revelation that you need to actually play another profession to learn its tricks. You must be new here, welcome to GW2! If you need help learning a profession, please seek it out in that profession’s subforum!

Turk.5460:

Killthehealersffs.8940:

S/D in general

Its like everyone whining in this thread plays one, and only one profession. No wonder you guys have problems with Thieves. You haven’t had the revelation that you need to actually play another profession to learn its tricks. You must be new here, welcome to GW2! If you need help learning a profession, please seek it out in that profession’s subforum!

This pretty well what it boils down to. Those that do not play thief on a regular basis do not seem cognizant of the fact that with the INI system the thief CAN spam an attack but that spamming said attack precludes him from using other weapon skills outside the AA .

If the state of the game is as they claim, it realtively easy for any of these people to roll up a thief and start rolling over every map in WvW with their OP skills , dispatching all they meet by “pressing one button”. I have not seen that happen yet.

Choppy.4183:

I did provide evidence in the post I quoted in my last comment.

You did not. And I did not confirm your claim of Thieves being vastly superior in terms of engage/disengage. I’d avoid embellishment if I were you, it greatly hinders what little credibility you have in this thread.

Please try again with proper evidence that Thieves are in another league in terms of engage/disengage. I’ll give you a hint on how to do this, since you seem to be having trouble formulating backup: “Profession A can disengage using skill X followed by skill Y, while Profession B cannot because their skill Z doesn’t compare to Profession A’s skill X” Feel free to include cooldowns, commonly used traits, and combo fields, as these all play equal part. (Please remember that Thieves cannot equip both Unhindered Combatant and Bounding Dodger at the same time – a common mindset seen here)

I’ll even be generous here and accept you providing backup to your claim for only Mesmer, Ranger, and Engi, even though you made a vague blanket statement covering all professions.

Your turn.

apharma.3741:

apharma.3741:

OriOri.8724:

I know why it was used, but that doesn’t change anything. It is still a weapon that was already used 100% of the time on thieves. Dev time would have been better spent making SB5 on thieves not so mandatory for them somehow (preferably by adding some of that mobility to other weapon sets somehow). As it stands though, that was a straight up buff to every thief, since every single one will still be running SB all the time

I think their time would have been better spent removing shortbow 5 from the game entirely. Then figure out wtf they want shortbow to be, a condi or a power weapon and roll with that. Right now it’s some weird hybrid that doesn’t really do any of it well but makes up for it all with an insane gtfo button.

This is the full quote. It was a response to OriOri on how s/he wants IA to not be mandatory to which I said remove it and instead spend dev time on figuring out if shortbow should be a power or condi weapon and roll with that. To be clear for anyone that might not be familiar with that term, it means make a replacement skill that is in line with whatever they decide it should be. Maybe I should have put that in for when I get misquoted every other month?

@Babazhook, The point I was making was how Choppy and I made comments in a more constructive way but you still responded as if they were like the OP.

@Jana, I was wrong, I didn’t realise this quote was from when SB was buffed. Still a lot of the time I rarely saw thieves using more than 5 to run away before the buff unless someone was downed. Occasionally I’d meet a decent one who used it as ranged pressure but it was mainly auto attack.

I guess I have to also say this otherwise you’ll all think I’m complaining about the SB rework?
The only thing I think was overtuned on the SB rework is how CG dazes every 1s pulse if the poison stacks are at the threshold, though given what they did to it in PvP I wouldn’t want it to become like that in WvW either. Sly said after he was corrected that he thinks it should be a 2s pulse and that seems fair or make a player only able to be dazed by CG once every 2s regardless of source I dunno.

I still stand by my statement that I’d have preferred the devs not make SB a weird hybrid weapon (still has bleeds on cluterbomb detonation because…/shrug) and instead removed IA and then made the weapon either a condi or power weapon with an appropriate skill. As mentioned before thief is not my main so I wouldn’t know what to replace it with.

SB should remain a hybrid weapon just as a number of other weapons in the thief kit are hybrid. I do not believe in forcing a person into one weapon type based upon the type of damage they want to do.

Unlike warrior, the total number of weaponsets thief as access to is limited and weapon swaps in combat do not function on thief as they do on warrior. Added to that one of the more interesting builds and rewarding builds for thief is hybrid, using carrion and the like on a given weapon set even as people whine about DIRE and TB.

Make SB purely condition or purely power and you further limit build choices all but ensuring that if SB was pure condition just as example, that every thief will be in dire.

Turk.5460:

Please try again with proper evidence that Thieves are in another league in terms of engage/disengage.

Well it’s obvious, isn’t it? Initiative allows Thieves to burst/spam most abilities like crazyfools. This includes engage/disengage.

Regen on initiative would make more sense if it were tied to them actually achieving something, or putting themselves in a risky position (like Necro has to with Life-Force), instead of having it magically return (and quickly) when they aren’t even near a fight. In this regard, the risk factor is lacking.

That’s the issue I think many people have with thief.

Turk.5460:

You did not. And I did not confirm your claim of Thieves being vastly superior in terms of engage/disengage.

Sure I did. I described a scenario in which a thief could do something through superior mobility that other classes can’t do to nearly to the same degree.

You confirmed that it can be done, but said you’ve seen other classes do it plenty of times, so it’s not remarkable.

So, if you don’t demonstrate that the other classes can do it, we’re left with just thieves doing it, which you and I both agree they can do.

Svarty.8019:

Well it’s obvious, isn’t it? Initiative allows Thieves to burst/spam most abilities like crazyfools. This includes engage/disengage.

Regen on initiative would make more sense if it were tied to them actually achieving something, or putting themselves in a risky position (like Necro has to with Life-Force), instead of having it magically return (and quickly) when they aren’t even near a fight. In this regard, the risk factor is lacking.

That’s the issue I think many people have with thief.

Thieves are forced into a trait line for more initiative. It can allow a burst, but any thief spamming initiative skills is a free kill, how are you even having a problem with thieves who spam their skills?

Svarty.8019:

Turk.5460:

Please try again with proper evidence that Thieves are in another league in terms of engage/disengage.

Well it’s obvious, isn’t it? Initiative allows Thieves to burst/spam most abilities like crazyfools. This includes engage/disengage.

Regen on initiative would make more sense if it were tied to them actually achieving something, or putting themselves in a risky position (like Necro has to with Life-Force), instead of having it magically return (and quickly) when they aren’t even near a fight. In this regard, the risk factor is lacking.

That’s the issue I think many people have with thief.

This wouldn’t apply to engage, unless the Thief is using the initiative to stack stealth, but they wont have much initiative to use after engaging. Certainly wouldn’t have enough to disengage immediately, unless they use shadowstep, if it’s not already on its 50s cooldown, or used on the engage and now out of its 10s return window…

In terms of disengage during an actual fight: If the Thief has a large amount of initiative to use specifically for disengaging, then what were they doing during the fight? Just auto attacking? If so, that is an incredibly low-tier style of playing which is only truly effective against equally low-tier opponents. If a Thief is fighting even a remotely competent opponent, the Thief is not going to have spare initiative to completely disengage, as the initiative is being managed and focused on the fight.

Choppy.4183:

Turk.5460:

You did not. And I did not confirm your claim of Thieves being vastly superior in terms of engage/disengage.

Sure I did. I described a scenario in which a thief could do something through superior mobility that other classes can’t do to nearly to the same degree.

Oh, you did?

Choppy.4183:

Because I’ve seen thieves do that a bunch. Had a friend on another server doing that just the other day, even against non-scrubby players. He was laughing too because (1) he’s not a thief main, and (2) he want even using the acro line and was still effortlessly avoiding any real danger.

No, you didn’t. You merely made another exaggerate claim of something you think you see “a bunch.” Then you go on to mention a “friend on another server” (throwing in the adverb effortlessly) was doing this, and even without the defensive traitline. This isn’t even close to something you could call evidence. And it’s not even regarding the engage/disengage superiority I requested you to prove. You’ve lost all credibility now, and my interest. It’s been fun, though!

Turk.5460:

No, you didn’t. You merely made another exaggerate claim of something you think you see “a bunch.” Then you go on to mention a “friend on another server” (throwing in the adverb effortlessly) was doing this, and even without the defensive traitline. This isn’t even close to something you could call evidence. And it’s not even regarding the engage/disengage superiority I requested you to prove. You’ve lost all credibility now, and my interest. It’s been fun, though!

And you said you’ve seen what I described many times, even from other classes. This is why I said you wouldn’t be in a tough spot if you’d just tried to claim that what I described is impossible.

So, since you’ve seen it many times from other classes, and that how they did it was super simple and obvious, please go ahead and describe it for the rest of us.

Or are you now saying other classes can’t do it? Or is that how you run from the box you put yourself in, after desperately trying to change the subject for the last several posts?

Kleptomaniac
Quick Pockets

Fight not going your way? Swap to SB → 555 a mile away. No one’s going to catch you.

Instant Reflexes
Hard To Catch
Upper Hand
Feline Grace
Endless Stamina

Having a hard time properly evading attacks? No problem. If you don’t have endurance left, you have weapon evades/full Initiative. Probably won’t run out of both. 1v1, gonna be real hard to get locked down even if you’re spamming.

Endurance Thief
Driven Fortitude

Hey look, more endurance.

I’m not going to argue with people here because I know no one wants to be constructive. I’m just going to say that Acro/Trickery/DD, usually with Staff and/or Shortbow, is absurdly OP.

I’ve got no qualms with condition Thief, staff, D/P, Shadow Arts, what ever else. Thief as a whole is powerful, especially in roaming, but not untouchable. All it takes is practice, as with most things.

Acro Thief however, way too many get out of jail free cards. You’re not going to drop them in to a danger zone because they’ll always have the endurance or initiative to make sure you don’t.

I don’t think Thief needs to be nerfed in to uselessness and I don’t think there’s a problem with them being the apex roaming class. I do think certain things need to be adjusted, though.

With all that said, I also don’t expect roaming to be balanced. WvW isn’t about small scale and it would be incredibly difficult to maintain balance between both large and small scale without over tuning or over nerfing something. So it is what it is but if you think the evade spam build Thief is balanced, you’re kidding yourself. I’d easily place it among the most broken things out there right now with how forgiving it is. I’m just glad I don’t see it all the time because most people want more damage.

kash.9213:

Svarty.8019:

Well it’s obvious, isn’t it? Initiative allows Thieves to burst/spam most abilities like crazyfools. This includes engage/disengage.

Regen on initiative would make more sense if it were tied to them actually achieving something, or putting themselves in a risky position (like Necro has to with Life-Force), instead of having it magically return (and quickly) when they aren’t even near a fight. In this regard, the risk factor is lacking.

That’s the issue I think many people have with thief.

Thieves are forced into a trait line for more initiative. It can allow a burst, but any thief spamming initiative skills is a free kill, how are you even having a problem with thieves who spam their skills?

You tell me.