Guild Wars 2

Arena Net

Today in WvW we ran into a group of about 10 thieves….. all hanging around the keep, just decimating anyone that came near. I’ve run into small groups of 2 or 3 before, but never so many – I’m not exaggerating the numbers either, there actually may have been more of them.

So it seems this really is turning into Thief Wars 2.

WvW is ridiculous – what are you doing about this?

Should we all just roll thieves? Can you let me know so I can start now and start saving mats for my exotic armour?

PvE is nearly dead because of FOTM and WvW is just pointless unless you’re following the zerg like a sheep.

Av.

A coordinated group of 10 anything will ‘decimate’ smaller groups walking by. Whining on the forums about this just makes you look foolish.

just send feedback to anet. they will get adjusted someday.

papacooldown.9482:

A coordinated group of 10 anything will ‘decimate’ smaller groups walking by. Whining on the forums about this just makes you look foolish.

My point being, the class is so overpowered you now have a situation where this is happening.

I wasn’t complaining about the decimation part.

Foolish? I think not.

Try playing one. You will probably be terrible, at least at first. But then you will figure out how to beat them and, ultimately, how silly this op is.

I have to agree the vast majority of players are thieves.

Roughneck.2509:

Try playing one. You will probably be terrible, at least at first. But then you will figure out how to beat them and, ultimately, how silly this op is.

If you would be so kind to send me a protip strategy for beating a team of 5 thiefs, as I could probably make a fortune selling this secret that only you know.

I think the point Papacooldown was trying to make is, would you really be saying the same thing if it were a group of 10 warriors or guardians?

I dont think you would. Thieves are in the spotlight at the moment due to culling and other issues, which makes them more of an obvious target when things like this happen.

Same can be said for any group of 5 Cover Girl…

Roughneck – when most of my health is gone before i even see them (because of culling), there is no way to beat them – unless i’m a bunker guardian/elementalist, which i am not.

Clearly A-net intend to do nothing about the imbalance issues in the game.

The whole point of my original post is that we’re now seeing stealther mini-zergs – this is not a good sign.

Aisunokami.6430:

I think the point Papacooldown was trying to make is, would you really be saying the same thing if it were a group of 10 warriors or guardians?

I dont think you would. Thieves are in the spotlight at the moment due to culling and other issues, which makes them more of an obvious target when things like this happen.

Same can be said for any group of 5 Cover Girl…

Lets not forget that we would be able to see/avoid the group of warriors or guardians. There is no avoiding 10+ perma-stealth thieves.

Avigrus.2871:

papacooldown.9482:

A coordinated group of 10 anything will ‘decimate’ smaller groups walking by. Whining on the forums about this just makes you look foolish.

My point being, the class is so overpowered you now have a situation where this is happening.

I wasn’t complaining about the decimation part.

Foolish? I think not.

When you get a 10 gankers camping a spot, it doesn’t matter what they are, they’re going to gank whoever they can. And the idea of having a theme to your group isn’t that odd either. For instance, one of my classmates has a Mesmer and he goes around WvW with a large group of other Mesmers doing whatever random stunt that comes to mind, like mass shatter salvos.
The other day I was caught by a smaller group of Warriors ganking.
Some players just like to do things like this. In any case, if they aren’t taking the keep, then they’re just trying to be nuisance for the sake of it and are not really a major threat, especially if they aren’t moving. Find an alternate route, and find something useful to do.
@Avigrus: There are plenty or rocks, hills and trees to hide behind that let you take advantage of the 3rd person perspective.

Sure about that?
10 warriors all leaping towards you at the same time?

Most of the players I encounter in WvW seem to be Mesmers and Rangers. Well, their clones and pets, at least. And there are probably also Eles in there since I can feel the fire raining from above, but I can’t say as I’ve actually seen one.

If you would be so kind to send me a protip strategy for beating a team of 5 thiefs, as I could probably make a fortune selling this secret that only you know.

I’d be happy too, just let me know what strategy you use for soloing five Warriors, Eles, Mesmers, Guardians, etc. Frankly, whatever class you’re playing that makes you feel that not being able to beat 5 Thieves means that they are OP, that would be the class in need of some serious attention from the Nerf bat.

I just haven’t mastered fighting a class that takes off most of my hp before i can see them.

I’ll try to figure out how to do that now.

Seriously.

Why kittening play anything else? perma stealth then hit for 10k.

As a fully exotic invader/soldier geared warrior (so stacking 1800 vit and toughness) I can still be killed before the thief loads in on my screen because the optimization is so kittening horrid.

Avigrus.2871:

Roughneck – when most of my health is gone before i even see them (because of culling), there is no way to beat them – unless i’m a bunker guardian/elementalist, which i am not.

Clearly A-net intend to do nothing about the imbalance issues in the game.

The whole point of my original post is that we’re now seeing stealther mini-zergs – this is not a good sign.

I agree with the majority of your argument. I play a thief, and there are some “unbalanced” things with the class. The culling, combined with stealth gives the illusion of being perma-stealth (for the most part).

I disagree, however, with your second point. Do you really believe that the company/developer does not intend to do anything? Really? Do you think it’s that easy to just re-write codes that would change the dynamics of such a complicated game? Very rarely does a huge, amazing game (like this) comes out of production perfect—about that which the consumers have complaints. We can only wait, and with that said, they can only do so much on their end. I’m not saying they’re working like little elves in Santa’s factory the week before Christmas, but they are not sitting on their kitten But yes, there are some aspects about the thief class that needs some readjustments.

BarnabyMalong.7561:

Avigrus.2871:

Roughneck – when most of my health is gone before i even see them (because of culling), there is no way to beat them – unless i’m a bunker guardian/elementalist, which i am not.

Clearly A-net intend to do nothing about the imbalance issues in the game.

The whole point of my original post is that we’re now seeing stealther mini-zergs – this is not a good sign.

I agree with the majority of your argument. I play a thief, and there are some “unbalanced” things with the class. The culling, combined with stealth gives the illusion of being perma-stealth (for the most part).

I disagree, however, with your second point. Do you really believe that the company/developer does not intend to do anything? Really? Do you think it’s that easy to just re-write codes that would change the dynamics of such a complicated game? Very rarely does a huge, amazing game (like this) comes out of production perfect—about that which the consumers have complaints. We can only wait, and with that said, they can only do so much on their end. I’m not saying they’re working like little elves in Santa’s factory the week before Christmas, but they are not sitting on their kitten But yes, there are some aspects about the thief class that needs some readjustments.

Just to explain why i feel this way.

My first level 80 was a Necromancer – there are so many bugs and issues with that class – people are posting these issues in the class forums – go and have a look. The developers don’t even acknowledge the issues such as broken pet AI, broken trait lines and only 1 viable spec that can be countered by every class in the game (condition damage).

I see developers posting in other class forums and discussing the issues about those classes and then the “big balance” patch comes out and none of the major Necro issues have been fixed, but the Mesmer phantasm issue was solved immediately, and other classes received a number of benefits.

The Necro pets have been broken since Beta… they just stand around and watch as the Necro dies..

Anyways… just a rant for this evening, because the developers don’t seem to be listening.

Cover Girl: bring four of your friends.

Avigrus: start paying more attention to your surroundings so thieves cant get the drop on you. If you see 10, take a different route? Why would you pick a fight with 10 guys?

Roughneck.2509:

Cover Girl: bring four of your friends.

Avigrus: start paying more attention to your surroundings so thieves cant get the drop on you. If you see 10, take a different route? Why would you pick a fight with 10 guys?

I didn’t. I was running along towards a keep when i was jumped – they have invisibility.

They then hung around said keep, destroying everyone that came past.

So all 10 of these thieves were able to coordinate their invisibility’s to move in on you without you noticing? Either they displayed magnificent coordination, in which case they deserved your head as a trophy, or you were looking at your map to see where the keep was and you missed them.

Roughneck.2509:

So all 10 of these thieves were able to coordinate their invisibility’s to move in on you without you noticing? Either they displayed magnificent coordination, in which case they deserved your head as a trophy, or you were looking at your map to see where the keep was and you missed them.

No mate, i was jumped by 2 and then the rest came in from the bridge to finish the job….

Ppl think something is op when it makes big numbers pop over their head, they never think for a second that maybe they died cause they did something wrong…. moslty the fault is of the opponent class being OP…. lol

Cover Girl.2580:

Roughneck.2509:

Try playing one. You will probably be terrible, at least at first. But then you will figure out how to beat them and, ultimately, how silly this op is.

If you would be so kind to send me a protip strategy for beating a team of 5 thiefs, as I could probably make a fortune selling this secret that only you know.

There are 2 kinds of thieves running in WvW right now:
1 – backstab spec
2 – pistol / dagge spec

The first one is a one-trick-pony spec, they have one chance to shot you dead or they will be totally screwed, what you have to do is to counter their opener.

steal → c&d → backstab , this is the usual flow of actions, and there might be a basilisk venom to stun and land easier the backstab…. how to counter ?
With my necro → kitten easy… reaper mark under my feet will fear him after they waste their steal, then spam chillblains, mark of blood, and more conditions, they’ll try to hide in shadows then, to heal, stealth and remove poison/bleed, go DS and fear them to interrupt their heal and set it to cd… then they are done.
And yeh…i know there are other infinite cases, but this is the most common.

With my glass cannon mesmer → mirror images to break basilisk stun, roll back to dodge c&d = 3 clones up → shatter → roll + one more clone skill + leap&swap to immobilize → blurred frenzy & shatter = dead thief.

The pisol/dagger build instead is way more solid, it keeps range to stack bleeding and the get close to stealth with c&d, dodge it, and out-dps them from range, if they stealth dodge their sneak attack since thats their main source of dps and bleedstacking.

General tip: if they shadow refuge, just use a push or pull skill to force them out of it asap… so that stealth will be wasted.

People tend to use OP class more b/c its so easy to win.

Aisunokami.6430:

Sure about that?
10 warriors all leaping towards you at the same time?

I would see them and avoid them.

Cover Girl.2580:

Roughneck.2509:

Try playing one. You will probably be terrible, at least at first. But then you will figure out how to beat them and, ultimately, how silly this op is.

If you would be so kind to send me a protip strategy for beating a team of 5 thiefs, as I could probably make a fortune selling this secret that only you know.

5 guardians. Block block block block block.

A guardian goes down and a thief is about to stealth stomp them? Sanctuary away and res!

Roughneck.2509:

Try playing one. You will probably be terrible, at least at first…

orly?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Hh5zjK7ITpQ#t=77s

Now do ten D/D tank elementalists.

Modkip.7681:

Roughneck.2509:

Try playing one. You will probably be terrible, at least at first…

orly?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Hh5zjK7ITpQ#t=77s

Then some one tries to copy cat this video until they discover the heartseeker and assassin’s signet nerfs.

Azure Prower.8701:

Modkip.7681:

Roughneck.2509:

Try playing one. You will probably be terrible, at least at first…

orly?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Hh5zjK7ITpQ#t=77s

Then some one tries to copy cat this video until they discover the heartseeker and assassin’s signet nerfs.

Yeah, there have been a few balance patches since then, but you can still roll a thief and go straight derpmode and win a fair amount of the time, certainly more than anyone mashing 2 should. Sure, damage numbers are different now, but you still see some thief players that love their 2 key more than life itself and the sad/kinda funny thing is that a lot of the time they still walk away with a kill.
Point is that thief doesn’t have the highest of skill floors.

The invisibility is the only issue I have with thieves. I understand it is a core part of the profession but there needs to be stealth detection or some sort of system were you can tell where the thief is. Perhaps the closer they are to a person in stealth the more visible they are? For instance if a cloaked thief was right next to someone they would be able to see a clear silhouette of a person near them. Not completely noticeable but some sort of indication.

There seriously has to be some kind of computer issue here. I have seen invis players and not all of them are thieves. If you run into a zerg everyone is invis at first. What doesn’t need to render is your character turning into stone you know all gray and not moving.

Pretty much every d/d thief will not engage a fight if their bask is not up. What Im trying to figure out is how 2 thieves jumped you and you didnt see the big house on top of refuge or hear the noise from refuge. There if you don’t have any kind of mobility then yea they are gonna catch you so is ranger which moves just as fast.

There is no way they where stealth and caught with infiltrator arrow since that breaks stealth. Where they close to the keep like up top? Im trying to figure out how you didnt see them unless you never look around when your running solo in wvw which is bad on your part.

If it was eternal then its easier to get the drop if your higher up and there are more nooks and cracks to hide in. If it was just a regular border land though then I can’t see how around the keep you got jumped.

Even if it was a regular borderland how do you not see them?

Lol at the dolyak comment, but as a thief you gotta think for a second while they can stealth the ones that can hit pretty hard usually don’t have that much health right, so go in there with a guardian throw up blocks everywhere and murk their kitten face off

Or use ring of warding and watch the hilarity

Or utilize the few skills that make you invulnerable for a lil bit at least long enough to get through the thief group

cuge.5398:

Ppl think something is op when it makes big numbers pop over their head, they never think for a second that maybe they died cause they did something wrong…. moslty the fault is of the opponent class being OP…. lol

Cover Girl.2580:

Roughneck.2509:

Try playing one. You will probably be terrible, at least at first. But then you will figure out how to beat them and, ultimately, how silly this op is.

If you would be so kind to send me a protip strategy for beating a team of 5 thiefs, as I could probably make a fortune selling this secret that only you know.

There are 2 kinds of thieves running in WvW right now:
1 – backstab spec
2 – pistol / dagge spec

The first one is a one-trick-pony spec, they have one chance to shot you dead or they will be totally screwed, what you have to do is to counter their opener.

steal -> c&d -> backstab , this is the usual flow of actions, and there might be a basilisk venom to stun and land easier the backstab…. how to counter ?
With my necro -> kitten easy… reaper mark under my feet will fear him after they waste their steal, then spam chillblains, mark of blood, and more conditions, they’ll try to hide in shadows then, to heal, stealth and remove poison/bleed, go DS and fear them to interrupt their heal and set it to cd… then they are done.
And yeh…i know there are other infinite cases, but this is the most common.

With my glass cannon mesmer -> mirror images to break basilisk stun, roll back to dodge c&d = 3 clones up -> shatter -> roll + one more clone skill + leap&swap to immobilize -> blurred frenzy & shatter = dead thief.

The pisol/dagger build instead is way more solid, it keeps range to stack bleeding and the get close to stealth with c&d, dodge it, and out-dps them from range, if they stealth dodge their sneak attack since thats their main source of dps and bleedstacking.

General tip: if they shadow refuge, just use a push or pull skill to force them out of it asap… so that stealth will be wasted.

Those glass canon thieves are doing it wrong. You wouldn’t survive the initial burst of the proper combo.

People complain about rogue/thief classes in every online game that has pvp. Don’t be foolish. If there’s a group of 10 coordinated stealth/burst based thieves denying you access to an area, don’t go that way. Or you can go around. Wild concepts, I know, but they work I swear.

Most of you guys are missing the main point of this rant. he ran into 10 thieves because they are OP and everybody is rolling the faceroll win class. suprise.. he didnt run into 10 necromancers and he didnt run into 10 rangers because they suck compared to the thief profession. i just bought this game a cpl of days ago and finally tried out WvW. being a level 20 its expected to get destroyed by everybody and there grandma, but when it comes to theives its just a little rediculous. logged onto the forums to see if there was a problem with them being OP and i instantly scope out 3 or so threads complaining about the thief class. it is a problem even me being a noob at this game can see it. hopefully they’ll get this fixed up soon.

Roughneck.2509:

If you see 10, take a different route? Why would you pick a fight with 10 guys?

If you see 10 thieves, then at least one of them has seen you. Given that thieves have some of the best mobility in the game (infiltrator’s strike, heartseeker, steal), how do you propose a non-thief, non-elementalist get away?

guys, thiefs may do lot of dmg but dont forget we have low hp, for exemple my main (thief) has less than 12k hp…. i get downed too easly and i lose my bloodlust stacks many times.

Modkip.7681:

Yeah, there have been a few balance patches since then, but you can still roll a thief and go straight derpmode and win a fair amount of the time, certainly more than anyone mashing 2 should. Sure, damage numbers are different now, but you still see some thief players that love their 2 key more than life itself and the sad/kinda funny thing is that a lot of the time they still walk away with a kill.
Point is that thief doesn’t have the highest of skill floors.

is that why here

http://www.gamebreaker.tv/video-game-shows/massive-dps/

Taugrim says

“This setup puts out MASSIVE amounts of DPS but takes a lot of skill execute properly.”

you can pretend it’s a faceroll class to make yourself feel better for losing to them, but it takes a LOT of skill to play the glass cannon backstab build. You and all the other QQers should watch the video and listen to them talk about how squishy the build is and how much finesse and how much coordination and timing you need in order to properly play this build.

Aisunokami.6430:

Sure about that?
10 warriors all leaping towards you at the same time?

Stealth, dodge twice, now lets have some fun while I collect my kills from these glass canon warrior.

Trevyy.8567:

Most of you guys are missing the main point of this rant. he ran into 10 thieves because they are OP and everybody is rolling the faceroll win class.

This^

The reason there were 10 thieves in the first place is becuase so many people are “rolling and trolling” with them in WvWvW.

I play an 80 Thief, 80 Warrior, 80 Guardian, and 80 Ranger. All in full exotics.

I main my Thief when tired, or drunk because it is MUCH easier to play than the other three toons. These thieves in here defending the class couldn’t play the other classes as well as they play their Thieves.

I don’t know why in every game scrubs have to defend the flavor of the month classes that they play because of broken mechanics, or overpowered abilities, but alas, you ALWAYS have people who will defend it. I on the other hand want a challenge, and quite frankly the way culling+stealth works in this game, IT IS BROKEN. It needs to be fixed, and there needs to be a balance. Damage wise, I think the class is pretty well balanced, though sometimes I hit people with Backstab, and it appears it is ignoring armor/toughness. I’ve hit bunker Guards with over 3500 armor for 5k Backstab damage, which cracks me up since Guardians have roughly the same hit points as my Thief.

I’ve gone roughly 7000 kills on my Thief, and just recently went over 100 deaths, ONLY because I played drunk two nights without using stealth those two nights for fun.

If people keep fighting the fix that NEEDS to happen, the end result, like in every other game is that class getting gutted so bad it is nearly unplayable. Help with the fixes, and be part of the solution, not part of the problem. I don’t want them to destroy the class with the wrong changes, only because those of us who play it won’t help zero in on what needs fixed.

Thieves in wvw are just ridiculous. I have played several classes 1v1 against thief but none of them work well even if specced SPECIALLY for fighting thieves. Now imagine how easy it is with generic setup, heh. Painfully difficult.

At least if you, by experience or some miracle have sixth sense to know when thief is going to have opening strike on you when you don’t even know he’s there, you can counter them maybe once or twice, if you’re experienced you can do that maybe 10 times. Problem is that anet’s official spam aoe and conditions doesn’t seem to work because they just stealth and heal then come at you again and eventually you will be so low hp that there’s nothing else to do there than just go downed and then they just stealth stomp you.

And don’t take me wrong I quite often do win 1v1 against thief. But it just doesn’t seem right that even less than mediocre player can come spam few buttons on you and kill you then run away in stealth whenever they feel like it.

Most annoying part is that if you can just counter them like 100 times and get bored and decide to walk off they keep pestering you forever because they’re faster than most of other ppl.

Class is just not fine as it is. Especially near infinite stealth part.

I read just the OP before posting. I can say that a couple guild mates, who I consider perhaps slightly above average level players (and incidently better than me), recently rushed their theives to 80 and geared them just so they could own face in WvW. And they are. They are running glass cannons but the culling issues are making them pretty much untouchable.

@jalmar – First of all, spamming a few buttons is vague, expound on that phrase as all profession do only require a few buttons compared to other MMOs like WoW. That’s the mechanic of Guildwars 2. You only have a few number of skills at your disposal, so generally speaking, you will only be really using few buttons. Thieves are meant to stealth, they’re meant to run away, they’re meant to pick their shots, that’s how the profession works. What they don’t have is, they don’t have direct defensive skills, their CC is close to none, their AOE comes from a weapon (SB) and you have to be near a zerg to be effective….that’s how the profession is advertised. Now, the only real issue that I admit Thieves should not benefit from is the culling, but it’s not just the thieves benefiting from it, so it would be unfair to nerf a thief because of an entire game’s fault. Solve the culling, thief is just as advertised. How many of you actually play thieves? Have you ever considered that these thieves that’s owning you are actually GOOD players???

for those of you who don’t know. every time a tier drop falls A.net gives thieves +1 power. you made us Op =)

My biggest thing is all the stealthing. It’s one thing to combat someone you can see, it’s another to combat someone who disappears every 4-5 seconds and turns up somewhere else. It’s a pretty big annoyance to me. This is why I think bleeds or poison should break stealth or prevent it.

Stealth should be a means to initiate a fight or escape one if possible… not what we have now.

10 of anything is going to be able to gank a smaller party.

Thieves are not OP nor are they easy button. Anyone that claims such has not played a thief and is trolling because they don’t like the class. Also any class can be OP in the right hands. I’ve seen a warrior survive a long time in a group of 10. Next thing you know, people are going to QQ about good players and start asking for nerfs to them. You nerfing people will, you know it, I know it, don’t bother trying to deny it, you just can’t handle the bruise to your ego when you loose a fight.

Glass cannon thieves are difficult to play because it is very easy to die. You get one shot to blow you wad then you have to wait for cool downs before you get to one shot someone again. P/D thieves are going to be harder because they are built to be more versatile and typically are built to survive more.

Culling is a different issue. It is not because of a thief. I’ve been ganked by a zerg that wasn’t culled. One minute we were beating on the door, next minute I was dead then finally I saw the zerg that arrived to defend. If we go by the logic of these forum posters, zergs need to be nerfed into the ground since they are obviously exploiting the culling bug, but I’m not sure how you are going to nerf the number of people that are gathered in a spot just because they are gathered and that also would not fix any culling issue.

If you really think you should be able to take on 10 players, your ego needs a reality check. If you can actually take on 10 players and kill all 10, you are a really good player or the 10 players are under level and not very good.

Here is what I do when I’m out numbered. I run away as fast as I can. You can also hot key the function to look back so that you can look behind you when running without turning around. Culling doesn’t always let me know how out numbered I am so I do die from culling but that isn’t because they are X profession.

You cannot break a class just to fix a bug that is not caused by that class.

If the players in W3 were being smart, they were coordinating and being organized. It is better to group classes into the same group. You don’t always wand a glassy profession in a heavy melee team if for certain tactics that need the extra toughness and vitality, just like you don’t really want a heavy slow melee grouped with five fast light melee that is used for other tactics.

People in W3 are playing with tactics and are thinking about the meta. You are going to see packs of thieves and other faster running classes roaming to flip camps more than you will see slower classes doing that. Just because you see more thieves from roaming does not mean everyone is playing a thief. Most likely they are a organized bunch with a particular task in mind, you just got ganked due to a bug that is not the result of the class.

More and more thieves everyday seems to me. I hope more and more people DO start playing them. I encourage everyone who is sick of them to roll one. Keep playing them for the next few months. When over 1/2 the WvW population are thieves, THEN maybe ANET will wake up and realize their previous nerfs have not went far enough. Maybe nerfs are not the answer. Redesign the class if necessary! I don’t care but do something soon.

It all comes down to fun. Everyone enjoys a good fight where things go back and forth and you never know who is going to win until the last blow. Even if you lose those can be fun. But does anyone really enjoy fighting a thief? IMO, it is NOT fun. Especially when almost dead before you get a chance to MAYBE do something before they kill you. And fighting groups of them is even less fun.

Thieves are taking the fun out of WvW. That is the problem for a lot of players. It is like they designed the class for griefers. Enjoying killing players over and over who can’t fight back effectively is griefing IMO. If they gave them a button that would kill everyone in a borderland instantly every five minutes, some of the thief players would push it over and over every 5 minutes even if it killed their own server mates.

These players are not looking for balance nor do they care about ruining other players fun. They just want to ‘PWN!’

to RedOwl .

8/10 from enemy I see in WWW is thife…
Kytra is full of Crime lol.

Guys, the devs have been playing this game for multiple years. You think they dont know how powerful the thief is? You think they never ran a glass cannon build for testing purposes?

Sorry, but I trust the balance decisions of the devs, who have played these classes for 2+ years as opposed to armchair gamers who have been playing it for a few months.

Keep the QQ going though, I can guarantee you the devs are laughing at the casual gamers who can’t counter a thief.