Guild Wars 2

I appreciate the well thought out post.

Rackhir Tanelorn.9123:

If you want to “mince words” then there is a difference between “playing the meta” and “playing meta” and in your above example you are trying to use the former as an incorrect use of the latter.

The argument still stands with the original reply. If anything, this only makes it more true (confusing). If I’m understanding your meaning, then this sentence would make complete sense:

“Im playing meta because I hate the meta.”

To interpret it as “I hate playing the zeitgeist, so I’m coming up with a build to counter it.”

That’s just crazy, and anyone who thinks it isn’t has been using this word way too long

KrazyFlyinChicken.5936:

Is it just me, or is everyone you know and respect using this word/prefix wrong.

Meta (Prefix) – to indicate a concept which is an abstraction from another concept, used to complete or add to the latter.

Examples (traditional)

From D&D: Your character has never seen a troll. You know Trolls are weak to fire from previous games. Your character, now, intrinsically, knows that trolls are weak to fire (cheating).

What Meta means in GW2 (near as I can tell) – The current prevailing strategy in both theory and practice.
for late joiners to this discussion)*

KrazyFlyinChicken.5936:

[/spoiler]

It is commonly misused. However, meta-gaming can take be realized as a strategy, or a tactic.

In GW2 it stemmed from the sPvP side, where I believed it was used correctly. To rephrase your definition, ‘meta-’ something is the abstraction of that thing.

Meta-gaming, would be the game of gaming. In sPvP that would refer to the game of team compositions and counter-compositions: in other words, the game of how to put together and optimal team to play the sPvP game. The meta-gaming in sPvP is a kind of strategy, but once removed from in-game play (i.e. sPvP map).

Referring to golem-zerging as the ‘meta’ in WvW would be incorrect: golem-zerging is a strategy, not meta-gaming.

In your example of D&D meta-gaming, you state that a player who has never encountered an undead character before, and presumably has 0 points in religion and arcane lore, knows to burn an undead creature. This is meta-gaming that has manifested as a tactic.

BTW, OP, my biggest nit-pick is when people improperly use the term strategy or use tactics and strategy interchangeably. Kudos for using it properly.

Ragnar.4257:

The problem you’re having is attaching the definition of “metagame” to the prefix “meta”. Try looking at it the other way round and you’ll find that both uses of “meta” are perfectly sensible and consistent with the definition of the prefix.

I’m not attaching “metagame” to the prefix. I’m pointing out that “Meta”, as it’s currently used, was originally a shortened way of saying ‘Metagame’.

And ‘Meta’ is not consistent with the prefix meta-. ‘Meta’ is closer to the meaning of ‘Zeitgeist’ as pointed out.

D&D invented the metagaming term, and what it originally meant was taking actions with knowledge that normally wouldn’t be available to your character.

Like, you’re attacking a golem, your character doesn’t know it’s immune to spells but you as a player do, so you don’t use spells. That’s metagaming.

Thedenofsin.7340:

Referring to golem-zerging as the ‘meta’ in WvW would be incorrect: golem-zerging is a strategy, not meta-gaming.

Exactly! Everything about your post makes perfect sense to me, and I agree with every point.

“Arrow carts are the new meta”
“Condition builds are the new meta”
“You’re running the meta build”

We’ve all heard one, or all of these lines before. I’m just glad there’s at least one person out there who can see what I’m seeing

Ahlen.7591:

Like, you’re attacking a golem, your character doesn’t know it’s immune to spells but you as a player do, so you don’t use spells. That’s metagaming.

Agreed.

Ahlen.7591:

D&D invented the metagaming term…

metagaming has been an element of games like chess and go for centuries.

GrandmaFunk.3052:

Ahlen.7591:

D&D invented the metagaming term…

metagaming has been an element of games like chess and go for centuries.

Chess is like…. 90% metagaming

KrazyFlyinChicken.5936:

GrandmaFunk.3052:

Ahlen.7591:

D&D invented the metagaming term…

metagaming has been an element of games like chess and go for centuries.

Chess is like…. 90% metagaming

Unlike rock, paper, scissors, which is exactly 100% metagaming, or 0% depending on who you believe.

Personally, the Most Effective Tactic Available is going to be my new go-to for why people call things META-builds for each profession.

I think Anet waits for what they call “The Meta” to develop in response to buffs and nerfs on a profession by profession basis. For instance, there has been a heavy condition Meta-game for quite a while, whereby certain professions have been able to be effective against most other professions using condition-bunker builds, and the response to that has been the Melandru Runes/lemongrass soup builds with varying degrees of trait investment to counter that “condition meta.”

When you equip condition cleanse, you are planning ahead for countering that meta on some level, just like when you take a stun break for a utility.

Some of the shifts in their idea of the meta for balance have seemed… ill-timed however, such as moving around stun breaks on non-heavy classes just in time for the hammer-warrior meta-builds to become the flavor of the month.

I have no issues in using meta in most of these ways, though, since when you look at the “over-game” you are essentially considering the “meta” implications of certain tactics, tools, etc.

On a related note…

“Min/Max” is a made-up, clunky gaming phrase that is synonymous with the much more elegant “optimize”.

Everytime I see “Min/Max” it makes me cringe a bit.

lunyboy.8672:

Unlike rock, paper, scissors, which is exactly 100% metagaming, or 0% depending on who you believe.

Personally, the Most Effective Tactic Available is going to be my new go-to for why people call things META-builds for each profession.

…

I have no issues in using meta in most of these ways, though, since when you look at the “over-game” you are essentially considering the “meta” implications of certain tactics, tools, etc.

Agreed with all of this. Especially the Rock Paper Scissors, example. Looking at it that way, it really is a bit of a strange game—a game that is purely metagame…?

Kind of Ironic, when you think about it:

A game to which its only strategy exists entirely outside of the game itself. A game, to which, without the metagame, would not be a game at all. It would merely be an exercise in statistics.

… Mind. Blown.

Edit:

No wait, I forgot about Rock. Good ’ol Rock. Nothing beats Rock.

deathTouch.9706:

Everytime I see “Min/Max” it makes me cringe a bit.

This!! I have no idea where this phrase came from originally—or why it exists at all.

Kashijikito.1864:

It basically means the most efficient way to play.

Ummm, no it absolutely does not. Hammer warrior in WvW are the current meta, but they are absolutely NOT the most efficient way to play. It has a lot more to do with what people are doing and feel is “IN” and not whats mathematically or factually more efficient.

KrazyFlyinChicken.5936:

Is it just me, or is everyone you know and respect using this word/prefix wrong.

[…“meta”…]

For some reason, it’s being used in a context that has nothing to do with meta. Am I the only person noticing this? I feel like im taking crazy pills.

You’re not crazy; you just knew what the prefix meant before it acquired a new meaning, and you’re having trouble being comfortable with the newly-acquired meaning.

It happens all the time. It happens as often from ignorance or misinterpretation of an older word’s meaning as for any other reason.

We can reasonably guess that it went something like this:

1. Someone somewhere is playing some game and talking about how to win at it. He or she talks about analyzing the options for play that depend on elements outside the actual game—for example, choosing the class that is most likely to be effective for the result you want to get; or designing a strategy to gear the class for maximum effectiveness; or even figuring out how to influence the game publisher to modify mechanics to make the player’s strategy more effective. Any of these approaches is gaming the game, so you’re metagaming.

2. Once someone uses the word that way, others pick it up and run with it. Soon, by virtue of fuzzy meanings and associations, it’s just another way to say “effective approaches to playing the game.”

3. From there it’s a very short and obvious step to it being used the way it’s currently used. The “current meta” can be seen as a short and convenient way to say “the approach to setting up your character for play that is most likely to provide you with a good range of effective tactics given the current game mechanics.” And “current meta” is a much more convenient way to say that.

Sure, the connection to the prefix’s older meaning is tenuous at best, but so what? That’s never meant much in the evolution of words’ meanings. Etymology is a fun pastime for the linguistically inclined, but if it teaches you anything, it teaches you that words’ meanings are going to drift, and where they drift to isn’t necessarily anyplace particularly expected or logical.

Just for fun, read some of Shakespeare’s comedies and pay attentions to the meanings of the words he uses for puns. A lot of them are still in common use today—with wildly different meanings.

Meta means taking advantage of currently popular strategies.

For example, when everyone in SPvP started using condi-cleave, the warrior stun build evolved because it hard countered those builds.

In PvE, if it is very common to run with warriors who give fury easily, there is no point to trait for fury, so you might take another trait insead.

I guess meta has come to mean adapting to other people’s playstyle.

Yeah, back in my day we just called it “Flavor of the Month”.

KrazyFlyinChicken.5936:

No wait, I forgot about Rock. Good ’ol Rock. Nothing beats Rock.

You don’t just post your playbook, how will you get to Nationals?

Dee Jay.2460:

Yeah, back in my day we just called it “Flavor of the Month”.

If you’re referring to picking the “optimal strategy picked by common consensus as of late” then I’d agree, and that’s also how I view a lot of the situation.

But you know FOTM makes you a lot less cooler and trendy, and more of a follower, so it’s only natural to claim one is metagaming which sounds cooler to the uninitiated. :p

In reality though, it’s not easy to tell what is what in the present.

I always thought that “meta” is an alternative game inside a game,

like the meta in PVE dungeons is skipping mobs.
the meta in class building is maximizing direct DPS via berzerker armor and damage multipliers (crit% , scholar runes, crit damage food, vuln stacks, positioning for thieves etc)

the meta in WWW was arrowcarts, then golems to counter the arrowcarts meta…

Dee Jay.2460:

Yeah, back in my day we just called it “Flavor of the Month”.

The meta isn’t just the most popular build, it’s also the other builds and techniques that are developed in response to the fotm.

This thread is silly. All modern day usage of meta comes from the prefix, infact meta still is a prefix. Metamorphosis, not metamophasis, comes from the prefix meta and morphe. together it means changing form or transformation.

Meta throughout the years has known a widening semantic shift. it can be used to refer to a lot of things. for instance metalanguage is the language linguistics use to talk about language.
metalinguistics is the study of language in relation to cultural behavior. in other words it’s the study of how speech changes depending on culture.
Metaphore is the interchangability of words.
Metadiscussion is the discussion of discussions
Metatheory is the theory where a theory itself is the object of study.

When players talk about meta they mostly refer to some set of rules people abide to(or not abide to). these aren’t set in stone and can change with any patch. It’s having understanding of the game but instead of applying that understanding to the game and it’s mechanics, you apply it to a factor outside of the game namely the people who play it. You predict how others will play and play according to that strategy. for instance i predict people will zerg in wvw so i use an arrowcart because i’ll hit a lot of people fast. I predict people will defend their keeps in numbers so i’ll use golems to try to take it as fast. Meta in games is mostly just a conventional strategy/counter strategy. it’s meta because the people themselves are not part of the game mechanics. and thus are subjected to outside of the game knowledge.