Thoughts on Scoring, Comebacks, and Future
The first thing for a scoring revision to me would be removing the global 15 minute owner gets the points system.
The flaws in the current system:
- With the addition of Righteous Indignation it has become used as a lock mechanic to guarantee points. If it can be avoided most servers focusing on ppt don’t take easy targets like camps until the last few minutes before the tick to make sure RI guarantee them the points. This leads to people occasionally getting upset when a objective is flipped early and not even supply can be gained from it before it is flipped back in the last minutes before tick.
- This creates an artificial surge period where all sides havoc attempt to flip camps in the same few minutes and conflict comes less from defending and more from fighting over the same objective.
- The existing ppt model can hamper comebacks and reward early leads simply because the total points for objectives are always the same.
- Points from kills in its current form leads to a MOBA mentality of veteran players getting upset when newer less experienced players die frequently ‘feeding’ the other side. Making new players feel unwelcome is not good for long term community.
Proposed changes.
- Remove the tally of all objectives every 15 minutes.
- Repurpose the defense event for objectives code to create a new objective score event. Edit for clarification: this means create a new continually repeating event that gives your server points everytime the event completes much like how the defense event repeats as long as you are being attacked.
- Adjust points for kills to only be rewarded for enemy that give wxp. Helps to curb perceived ‘feeding’. New players seen as less of a liability
Potential pros to the new system
- The new score event would lead to less push to take as many things as possible in a few minute span to maximize ppt into a more organic battle of taking objective for strategic purposes and defending them for the same reason. Without a way to lock in points holding an objective becomes more crucial.
- The events would be interruptible and once taken the new owner would start their own timer. This results in a variable number of points from objective. There would still be a theoretical max, but constantly traded locations would offer little to nothing to the over all score for any side. This would put a greater emphasis on holding objectives. It would also potentially allow a comeback by holding a few targets while just continually flipping others to deny anyone points, opposed to the current system that requires you to flip and keep targets to close a gap.
- The events lend naturally to being able to be worth more based on the tier when the event starts counting down.
- This also opens up killing enemies as a more viable path to victory as opposed to its current form which simply punishes the side with careless players. Also rewards seeking out the stronger of your opposing servers vs preying upon the weaker continuously. Diminishing returns on hounding a foe once they have been beaten back
(edited by Teraphas.6210)
Potential comeback mechanics
Some of these ideas range for minor to drastic
First idea is the scoring events I mentioned previously. Being able to deny points from the overall total means potentially smaller gaps to close. This also gives more power to smaller havoc groups to influence the matches.
Another idea is expand outnumbered and righteous Indignation to have additional effects for the server currently in 3rd place during the match. I would essentially have RI gain additional duration. This would means the 3rd place server owned objectives would potentially be less attractive and nudge the other servers to fight each other more and 3rd place less. I would also enhance out manned for 3rd place, especially if coupled with my idea for kills only give points if they are worth wxp, by having it either reduce the rate at which your death rewards other wxp or just subtract x wxp from what you reward others. Either way this means players on the third place server must be alive longer to grant wxp or points for the other servers making them a less profitable course to pursue.
Another idea would be events that only the 3rd place server can see. They could be made that any server can gain from them but only the 3rd place would get the notification of it starting. Or it could be that only the 3rd place server could benefit. I personally prefer the former but the breakout events could be considered the latter. Ideally I would steal mechanics from pvp. Starting with Niflhel, take the idea of gaining a buff from killing an npc. Have several different places and types of enemy that could spawn on a timer, prefer one with a built in random variance range to keep all sides from predicting their arrival. Any server who was close enough would see the event and be able to kill it to gain a buff for all nearby allies, but the 3rd place server would get map wide notification of it starting. Another would be to steal the orb from spirit watch. An orb would spawn and the 3rd place server would be tasked with taking it to any location they owned. Multiple spawn locations would be valuable. Or conversely it could spawn at the old northern alter in alpine (or the central in desert) and be worth more the further away you take it to turn in. Thus orbs on your home map would be easy points but unlikely to be run for far objectives as they would likely be in enemy hands. But orbs on opposing maps would reward you more if you were able to smuggle it all the way back to one of the south camps or your home tower. Again this would be only the 3rd place server able to pick up an orb.
The biggest problem with wvw is that maps queue. This may not seem like a big deal but actually limits overall community size. The second is the global rewards that the efforts of a few gain for the many. But the many often don’t know there are benefits they are getting for their side doing well or they are just taken for granted as they have little influence on the rest of the world. I will talk about the former here and the latter in another post.
Problems hampering overall community size for wvw.
- newer players not having an idea of what they are to do upon entering wvw or having tried EotM and leave because they find regular wvw more ‘intense’. Newer players will also be turned off by going to a map and it not having a commander as well as being turned off by there being a queue. Why would you spend your play time in wvw if there is no one to follow or if you have to wait to go into something you were going to try on a whim?
- veteran players who have little incentive to welcome new player especially if they are coming during a normally queued time. They become competition for your space in the map.
- Coverage becomes a double edge sword. Players want new people to play but only when there are normally no queues.
- Yes EotM can give players something to do if there is a queue but generally most serious wvw players treat EotM as a pale shadow better suited to level an alt than be considered as true play space. Especially since its only influence on the match is a supply drop in your home map.
What is needed to truly grow the wvw community are additional maps of a permanent or near permanent nature.
Now you might say we have trouble covering the maps we have why would we want more? Simply put to attract more people to wvw in general. The problem with coverage is as much too little room during peak server times as it is not having the same size forces during the same time as other servers.
My proposal is for 4 additional maps. 3 of which would be for 2 servers only. The final map would be a traditional 3 way battle. Each of these maps would have unique mechanics that let them exist as part of the larger struggle without being directly tied to it.
Now before I dive deeper into the maps I mentioned a semi permanence for them. Unsure if this would truly be possible to implement but it’s my vision for their nature. I would want to see these maps drift in and out of the mists. Anet would identify peak server times and set a schedule that would have these maps become available for an hour or two before drifting back into the mists for 2 or 3 hours. Ideally with their emergence coinciding with as much high population as possible. Now this would also have them at low pop times as well but hopefully that will be a good thing. These maps would be smaller pop limits of course. But with their on and off nature and hopefully a worthwhile influence you will start drawing more players during the slower times to aid their servers by tackling these smaller maps.
Now the 2 server maps could be thought of as bridges between each borderland. Picture the current borderlands arranged in a triangle around EB. The map between the red borderland and green would only be accessible by those 2 servers.
As I have done previously I would like to borrow from pvp namely the stronghold game type. Namely that push pull nature. You obviously would not need npcs to push the gates as you would have players. I would also rather have it be more of a tug of war to gain something for your server vs strongholds destroy the lord. To that end I foresee the ‘lanes’ resemble the symbol for cancer
[IMG]http://www.cancerzodiacsign.net/images/cancersymbol-font.png[/img] Your goal would be to push to the end of the line in the circle. You would start out at the end of the arm portion. Thus your spawn will be close the goal to man defenses and both teams will be in close proximity in the last section of the path. I see the nature of the resource being captured as something like in the one section of octovine, but instead of needing cc to move it you take a little yak escort code and have it move forward as long as allies are within range of it. In the course of a round on this map, the more of the resource you gain for your side the more the energy flow will swing in your favor. The larger of a margin you win by the better the buff duration you get. The buff granted would be the same for all the mall and would stack duration so each side has 2 chances to gain at least some of the buff. The exact buff would of course be up to anet but needs to affect all 4 core maps. Perhaps something like yaks move faster, or supply regen is faster to more extreme like speed boost while ooc or all points earned while buff is on are double.
Now I know I said these maps would be for just 2 servers but as an optional option I would love to see the third sever to join the map in a modified spectator mode. Have you ever gone on a river rapids ride and pass by a spectator platform where the people there can use water cannons or trigger geysers as you pass by? Yeah I would love to see that idea added to the map. I say modified because I propose that periodically the spectators would be asked to vote as to which trap type to activate. This would then trigger at multiple points along the path of both sides. That’s right no favorites both sides get punished but perhaps one side more than the other. Especially during peak times when these maps are open and everything is queued it would give players a place to go and still feel part of the match up.
The last map I would prefer to be more permanent than the bridge maps. It would be all about who is currently dominating the map to impart it’s effect. This is also the most ambitious. The side controlling this map would gain an air superiority buff that would allow the use of smoke flares from mortars (and maybe cannons) at owned objectives in all 4 core maps. These would call down a explosive barrage. But even more dangerous is. That players with a new wvw ability line whose last ability would let them remove a flare charge from the mortar. This would put a bundle in your hands. Run this to an enemy keep to call down a bombardment of the wall sections it’s placed at. This would do a little damage to the wall (if damageable) but if used well could be used to clear opposing siege and players.
I envision this map as a series of islands floating ‘above’ the core maps. The central keep would be a large mobile airship. Only one keep on this map, each side would have a two towers capable of assaulting the airship as it passes by. But this also means the airship can attack it as well.
I personally would not want to see supply usable by players. Yaks would still reinforce towers. But the airship would be ‘healed’ by friendly towers using a player wielded supply converting cannon to repair it as it passed by.
Now you ask if the airship is flying how do players capture it? That’s where camps come in. Camps on this map serve as hangers letting a player adopt another role by using a transformation much like the fire keep egg. This would transition you that as long as you are transformed to move about like you were underwater, but flying. Be warned all objectives have AA guns capable of shooting you down,best to coordinate with a ground assault. Also dropping the transformation will cause you to fall and take appropriate damage,as well as proc on fall effects for those who deem a deadly fall a good trade off.
Your ultimate goal capture the airship after your towers have weakened it by flying out to it. Warning the owners will likely have a forces to repel your boarding party. But take out all the AA guns on the airship and damage it’s engines to slow it down and you could take an APC out to the airship to arrive in force. Or fly out and hope you can release the transformation to fall and land safely on the deck before enemy fire tears you apart.
Especially if anet can implement these maps as cyclical they could also double as potential swing mechanics to help a side catch up or break a particularly stubborn defense
Now as to the global rewards for wvw progress. Aka power of the mists
The flaws with the system
- They progress in the same manner each time. there is no path of preference.
- They essentially mean the game gets easier the closer to the end of the march you get.
- Since it also affects wvw and grants more health and endurance thus means a team with an early lead or just dominating the other two servers have a larger health pool and can dodge more often making them even harder to catch up to.
- They reward players for not even stepping foot in wvw. Why would a player head to wvw when they will get the benefits anyway.
- There is no announcement of when your side had gained a benefit. Higher server pride to see the benefits roll in.
- The actual rewards are out dated or selectively beneficial.
Changes to the system
- First and foremost is a message or reward chest notification should appear for all members of their server denoting what benefit was just procured for them by the wvw team.
- A customizable path of rewards to let a server customize a path thru rewards. Players in the wvw maps would get a voting option of what to pursue next with how many more points to gain.
- Players in WvW should accrue a buff that amplifies the benefits of the Power of the Mist. The buff duration accrual could be tied to participation rewards, anytime you would gain participation towards reward tracks you would gain x minutes of buff. Perhaps even an aura when out of wvw to show players you are fighting for them as long as the buff is active.
- Change rewards to be less Stat influencing and more ease of progress. Remove defender energetic medic and robust. Potential new additions boosts to magic find, wxp gain (or have the xp boost affect wxp too) reduce way point costs, increase duration of utilities, food and spanners when used.
Potential alternate system all benefits of the powers of the mist are accrued during the match but not applied until the following match up. IE how well your server did last week will denote the benefits you have for all of this week. No progressive increase of benefits. A mail or reward chest could be sent to players letting then know what their server won for them this week.
Proposed changes.
- Remove the tally of all objectives every 15 minutes.
- Repurpose the defense event for objectives code to create a new objective score event.
As much as I hate ppt, I actually think it’s necessary. Objective based scoring just leads to a whole lot of problems.
Not sure if I understood you completely, but you seem to have a timer based objective scoring:
Your version of objective based scoring doesn’t seem like it would change anything. In practice, it is essentially the same as ppt currently (just ppf – points per flip). (I don’t know who gets the point but: if defender gets point on flip = why would attacker flip; if attacker gets point on flip = why would the defender defend?)
Even if you have a max ppt per control, it only makes weaker servers harder to compete. Weaker servers will not be able to hold/cap objectives as efficiently as a stronger server – they won’t be able to hold their structures for a long time. Scoring will still be lopsided significantly in addition to being confusing and unpredictable.
Also, fighting constantly over an objective can be fun, why do we want to discourage it?
Your proposal probably may not be worse than the current system, but I don’t see how it is better.
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Other objective based scoring I’ve seen around the forum (without timer):
- WvW is not about fighting in one place (it’s something pvp/gvg would do), it’s about the amount of ‘objectives/land’ you control. With objective based scoring (without timer), you are disadvantaged the more land you hold. If they don’t have > 13 objectives on a single map, maybe objective based scoring would work, except that wouldn’t be WvW as we know it anymore.
- If you don’t reward any ‘objective points’ to caps without defenders, that destroys the game for a lot of roaming communities who pride themselves in ‘ninja caps’. Groups can also simply just leave the objective to deny the opposing server any points.
Solution:
I agree with what Tyler’s post on dividing up ppt into ‘sets’ or ‘skirmishes’ as he called it.
REASON?
Benefits
- Winning a Skirmish by a small margin, or a large margin, awards the same number of victory points.
- This keeps the winning and losing scores closer together, allowing the losing worlds a fighting chance
- Teams will still want to win as many time slices as possible, off-hours coverage is still important, but less dominant
Especially the third point. But I do not agree with nerfing ppt for off hour population. It’s not PVD all the time during off hours contrary to popular belief. I acknowledge that off hour coverage is unstable and hardest to balance, but this is the fairest way to reduce the dominance of those timezones without pooping on anyone.
I think 5 minutes tick is too short, but 15 minutes is too long especially under the new ‘skirmish’ system. 5 minute is pretty much a guaranteed point after capture (it’s effectively objective scoring in a way). I would rather see 8 -10 minutes RI, this gives a chance for the opposing server to cap the objective back before the tick, but this is all about subjective personal preference.
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(edited by ThunderPanda.1872)
Sorry for the confusion. I was meaning use an continually repeating event like the one that rewards you when you are defending.
I am asking for each objective to time independently vs all being on the same 15 min cycle.
You could then vary the amount of time per tick to each type of objective. For example you could have unupgraded camps reward 1 point every 5 minutes but have a max tier castle give 100 points every 30 minutes. The numbers are just for reference btw
So when you take a tower,let’s say it is set for 15 minutes, an timer would start counting down from 15 minutes. If it got to 0 your side would be rewarded points and it would start a new.
But the fun comes with the timer resets with each new owner. Ever been in a crazy 3 way hills battle? One side manages to cap it everyone else just abandons and jumps out. Because even if they could wait out the RI they don’t try because even if they flipped it it would probably just get flipped away from them for the tick. No longer the case, you could keep pressure up and flip hills soon as RI ends to start your own timer. And the more rapidly that hills flips the less impact it has on the overall score.
This makes the idea of papering an objective more worthwhile. You paper a keep if you get a single tick from it you consider yourself lucky, in my system not only did you reduce its defenses so a later group can take and hold it you definitely denied the enemy points and removed a little potential from the final score.
Objective x gives 5 points every 15 minutes. It’s is flipped 4 times in 2 hours. Old system total ppt awarded is 40. My system, 4 flips means 20 min unflipable max potential awarded in the same 2 hours is 30 points to the overall score.
This should make wanting to take out objectives always a good idea and not skipped because we won’t be able to keep it for tick so why bother
The scoring system is a red herring. Changing how it is calculated is putting lipstick on pig. The fundamental problem is population/coverage balance as very few players want fights that are so out of whack an entire side stops logging in. Changing the scoring won’t change crappy lopsided fights.
“Youre lips are movin and youre complaining about something thats wingeing.”
The scoring system is a red herring. Changing how it is calculated is putting lipstick on pig. The fundamental problem is population/coverage balance as very few players want fights that are so out of whack an entire side stops logging in. Changing the scoring won’t change crappy lopsided fights.
I’ve seen several posts from you like this. what you essentially ask for is team matching like pvp where others can’t join the battle unless there is enough on the other sides. but what do you do with people when the other sides log out? you still can’t garuntee everyone will run together. numbers will always be imbalanced for one reason or another in the matchup. restricting people from playing does no one any good. we need to focus on drawing more people into wvw overall so that all the maps can be near max or maxed naturally. but you you neeed more that EotM to handle the overflow.
Growing the community base that plays wvw and having the space for them without competing with each other is the key to wvw future and population normalization. i refuse to use balance because it never will be.