Guild Wars 2

I loved the lore behind PvP in LotRO, but one aspect of it that drove me crazy was the inability to compete without serious time investment (a rank 1 vs rank 11 was an incredible power spread).

I feel that GW2 has been heading in this direction in WvW. The biggest culprit is guard stacks. The next is ascended gear. If we start nit-picking we can include consumables and stack-sigils.

Guard stacks provide an advantage in combat, and that advantage is obtained purely by time investment. This is a different fundamental mechanic over the siege attributes as you’re not engaging in 30 on 30 siege battles (nor 5v5, nor 1v1).

Ascended gear provides an advantage in combat, and like guard stacks, it’s obtained purely by time investment.

It’s definitely not out of control like it was in LotRO — it’s trending in that direction however.

A possible solution:

(1) Remove time-based power creep features like guard stacks
(2) Normalize stats in WvW. If you have a piece of zerker gear, then you get a normalize set of stats for that gear, regardless of player level and regardless of gear quality (rare, exotic, ascended, etc). Every player with a zerker chest piece has the same stats on it, period.

if WXP is obtained purely by time investment.. what in this game doesn’t also qualify as a purely a time investment?

getting to level 80? time investment
making/testing a build? time investment
attaining gear? time investment

Hey Juno, while I have never wanted to give this response, as it’s often used in a trollish manner, I feel it is correct here, and I’ll try to explain why after.

Go play sPvP if you want perfect balance.

Now, I’ll explain why. Your point of a piece of zerker gear being a piece of zerker gear regardless of level or quality is exactly what sPvP provides, its a level playing playing field that is designed to be balanced, that is why it has its own set of balance in regards to certain things. You don’t bring in your gear from PvE as well, again to provide a balance, so that time played doesn’t factor into your characters effectiveness. It’s also why I don’t play it, I want my time investment to matter, I want to work for certain gear and I want that work to make a difference. I like how I have to stack sigils in WvW and be careful not to lose them. Lastly, I like that it’s not perfectly balanced, sometimes I have an advantage, sometimes I don’t, I enjoy that dynamic, as many people do, I also know some people don’t, as does ANet, hence they created sPvP to cater to that crowd. As a side note, I have only ascended jewelry and I do not yet have guard leech or applied fortitude (or whatever either name got changed to)

Now, I know sPvP isn’t the same as WvW and doesn’t give the same fights that WvW does, but it has been stated since launch that WvW won’t ever be perfectly (maybe not even well) balanced. Frankly it’s probably better they don’t fret too much over it as the likelyhood of balancing WvW to the extent some players want it is probably impossible. WvW is imperfect, and it has a power creep. I agree with your sentiment that we don’t want a huge gap, but we have somewhere where there isn’t a gap, and working to make your character better is a big parr of MMO’s for so many people, including me . Let’s not try to make WvW into sPvP.

juno.1840:

/snip

I agree with everything that you said. That’s how WvW should work.

Razamatazz.9628:

I agree with your sentiment that we don’t want a huge gap, but we have somewhere where there isn’t a gap, and working to make your character better is a big parr of MMO’s for so many people, including me . Let’s not try to make WvW into sPvP.

But isn’t it way more rewarding if you work on “making yourself” a better player? I fail to see how overcoming an opponent only because your gear/buffs are better is rewarding at all.
And if power creep must be BiS gear should be obtainable at a reasonable rate in the chosen game mode. But right now if you want Ascended gear in a reasonable time frame you have to play PvE.
PvE power creep destroys the shaky balance in WvW. But why can’t I have my Strength/Fortitude stacks in PvE? Why does balance matter more in PvE than in WvW?

Razamatazz.9628:

but it has been stated since launch that WvW won’t ever be perfectly (maybe not even well) balanced. Frankly it’s probably better they don’t fret too much over it as the likelyhood of balancing WvW to the extent some players want it is probably impossible. WvW is imperfect, and it has a power creep.

No one asks for perfect balance or is naive enough to believe in true balance. But the goal of every game, especially every PvP game, should be to become more balanced over time. Not the opposite.

Great responses everyone. I understand that “perfect” balance will come from PvP (perfect in quotes for a reason). However I love the large scale that WvW provides. I want to roll with our coordinated guild groups, I want the epic feel that comes with large open field battles.

I’d prefer a PvP like regiment in WvW, but not via a necklace like PvP is currently. There’s a lot of individuality that comes from customizing your PvE toon for WvW — really enjoyable stuff that’s not present in PvP really.

In short I think this is easily achieved simply by stat normalization and elimination of the small set of time-based power mechanics (i.e. guard stacks).

I always wondered (and still do) why WvW does not have regimented gear/trait/skills. Remember Beta when sylvari “Grasping Vines” was AoE? — that was nerfed purely because of how OP it was in WvW (and it was better than the ranger elite).

juno.1840:

I always wondered (and still do) why WvW does not have regimented gear/trait/skills. Remember Beta when sylvari “Grasping Vines” was AoE? — that was nerfed purely because of how OP it was in WvW (and it was better than the ranger elite).

Same applies to Confusion. Bringing it down to PvP damage levels made WvW suddenly a lot more enjoyable again. That was definitely a good change too.

Indeed Elmo, it is much more rewarding to make yourself a better player. But, is a normalized playing field needed to become better? As someone who competes in WvW without ascended gear (don’t honestly intend to get it) or guard stacks (I’ll get them some day, working towards it) I focus on making myself good enough to beat someone with them even though I’m without them.

People seem to harp on the idea that a power creep is for people who want an advantage, I don’t necessarily want an advantage, in fact, with my family I simply don’t have the time to acquire said advantages in many cases, I like the goal. I also like the challenge provided by facing someone who has those advantages over me and finding a way to win regardless. After all, what better way to improve your skill than to face someone who is stronger than you? At that point you must win through skill, not strength.

The other thing that these goals provide is dynamics, sometimes you face opponents who are easy to defeat, some are an equal match for you, while others are almost impossible to beat, sometimes because of said challenges, to remove that dynamic through the normalization of stats and progression would stagnate WvW in a way, for me at least. Even if I couldn’t get any of the advantages, I wouldn’t be against them, I would figure a way to beat them. Maybe I’d improve my skill, maybe I would change my build, maybe I would change my group composition. Maybe you fight them on terrain that favors your class, or build, or maybe you use siege. Or maybe you just plain kite them into some hidden friends and win with simple numbers (I like to do this with up levels). Imagine the rage of some fully stacked 80 thief who thinks he just found a juicy target in my up leveled guardian to run after me only to find d my four other groupates around d the corner who burst him down right away thus killing his stacks. Oh my, I’m smiling just thinking about the nerd rage, hehe . Anyway, I’ve gone off tangent. I respect your views, and even agree we don’t want a huge gap or power creep, but variety is the spice of life, and the variety in challenges is what I think really makes WvW special. I don’t want to see that go.

Also, I do agree that there does need to be balance, and it may be that guard leech, and applied fortitude, and ascended do need to be balanced. The change of crit damage % to ferocity is a result of this and I think it’s a good thing. I’m just against a complete normalization of things.

I invested time/gold and Karma for my stuff. I do not see why someone in blue should have the same advantage as me in exotics, or me in exotics as someone in ascended.
I’ve beaten people who had stat advantage (through gear/food/stacks/applied fortitude/guard leech), and some beated me while I had advantages.

Sometimes I lose because I have my bus stuff on, sometimes I might win because the enemy has its bus stuff on…

Sometimes I get outsmarted, sometimes I outsmart the enemy.

Fact is, equal battles are very rare in WvW. I don’t think it happened once that I fought someone whose level was the exact same as mine, and that stats are all that made a difference.

Stats will help bad players live just a little bit longer, or good players kill the other just a little bit faster…

When one wins a 1v2, I do not think it’s because of any stat advantages – it’s just because he was better/smarter than it’s two foes…

I really do not feel like those advantages are such a big deal…

In short you support my argument Jocksy. You want to win because you were better, not because you had an advantage because you invested more time in WvW than your competition.

It’s a dangerous mentality to fall into… “I spent more time here so I deserve to be better… I deserve an advantage… I earned it”. Games like LotRO cater to that, rewarding the time investment (as opposed to the player skill).

GW2 is not bad like I’ve seen in LotRO or other games. However some mechanics are trending in that direction (guard stacks and ascended). There’s no good reason to include those time-based advantages in competitive play. You could view it as pay-to-win, where you spent time instead of money.

I fully support the desire to be individual, to craft your appearance, your build, your role. My proposal doesn’t inhibit that.

Razamatazz.9628:

Go play sPvP if you want perfect balance.
<snip>

And be forced into a point capture game mode.

WvW offers more enjoyable pvp than PvP itself. I would love normalised stats in an open world pvp environment.

Curunen.8729:

Razamatazz.9628:

Go play sPvP if you want perfect balance.
<snip>

And be forced into a point capture game mode.

WvW offers more enjoyable pvp than PvP itself. I would love normalised stats in an open world pvp environment.

Whoa, kind of cut out a lot of what I had to say there, including the part where I said I understand your point.

The issue with your statement of “I would love normalised stats in an open world PvP environment” is that it swings both ways. I would not like it, for the reasons I stated before. The thing is, if they were to normalize stats you would have two game modes that offer your preferred style of play (from a stat standpoint) while I had none. As it stands now we each have one, though sadly I will agree with you that sPvP isn’t nearly as enjoyable as WvW, and I do empathise with you guys on that.

I would say the gap isn’t really too big between just a short amount of time put in and a large amount of time (at this point at least, I do agree with Juno that we don’t want a huge gap) to be completely impossible to overcome via skill, which is all people who want normalized stats are seeking, skill to be the determining factor, not gear/stats. That is my personal opinion/experience though.

GrandmaFunk.3052:

if WXP is obtained purely by time investment.. what in this game doesn’t also qualify as a purely a time investment?

getting to level 80? time investment
making/testing a build? time investment
attaining gear? time investment

tPvP.
Unless you consider ‘experience’, ‘battlefield awareness’, ‘understanding’ and all that just a ‘time investment’.

drkn.3429:

GrandmaFunk.3052:

if WXP is obtained purely by time investment.. what in this game doesn’t also qualify as a purely a time investment?

getting to level 80? time investment
making/testing a build? time investment
attaining gear? time investment

tPvP.
Unless you consider ‘experience’, ‘battlefield awareness’, ‘understanding’ and all that just a ‘time investment’.

No, but then I don’t consider any of the other things as being “purely a time investment” either.

that was my point.

A lot of players prefer WvW because effort put into advancing a character pays off. Removing that concept would basically create another sPvP situation and drive off several WvW hard core players.

Razamatazz.9628:

Curunen.8729:

Razamatazz.9628:

Go play sPvP if you want perfect balance.
<snip>

And be forced into a point capture game mode.

WvW offers more enjoyable pvp than PvP itself. I would love normalised stats in an open world pvp environment.

Whoa, kind of cut out a lot of what I had to say there, including the part where I said I understand your point.

The issue with your statement of “I would love normalised stats in an open world PvP environment” is that it swings both ways. I would not like it, for the reasons I stated before. The thing is, if they were to normalize stats you would have two game modes that offer your preferred style of play (from a stat standpoint) while I had none. As it stands now we each have one, though sadly I will agree with you that sPvP isn’t nearly as enjoyable as WvW, and I do empathise with you guys on that.

I would say the gap isn’t really too big between just a short amount of time put in and a large amount of time (at this point at least, I do agree with Juno that we don’t want a huge gap) to be completely impossible to overcome via skill, which is all people who want normalized stats are seeking, skill to be the determining factor, not gear/stats. That is my personal opinion/experience though.

Ah, my apologies – I didn’t mean it to come across so bluntly!

The problem is the normalised gear in pvp allows swapping builds as much as you want with no cost, unlike wvw where every piece of gear costs something – which for the average player takes time to acquire.

I’m lucky because I tend to play very few builds and only one class – often simply adjusting my main build whenever I feel like a change, so I can afford instant regearing when I want it.

I hope EotM is the start of more pvp game modes – would love a medium size map using pvp gear with unique objectives, or even simply a team ffa.

Hello Juno,

I do agree that the guard stacks are OP.

But they made WXP incredibly easy to get tbh.

Getting 115 takes about a few days. Also, WXP can be bought by laurels too.

FW

juno.1840:

Guard stacks provide an advantage in combat, and that advantage is obtained purely by time investment. This is a different fundamental mechanic over the siege attributes as you’re not engaging in 30 on 30 siege battles (nor 5v5, nor 1v1).

Straegen.2938:

A lot of players prefer WvW because effort put into advancing a character pays off. Removing that concept would basically create another sPvP situation and drive off several WvW hard core players.

That’s just a non argument. Other people will show up and tell you many people quit because ascended gear was forced on them.

Also keep in mind that gear normalization doesn’t mean less gear choices. You would still have all the gear that you can also have in PvE (even Dire gear or Perplexity runes that create problems on their own). Only the number of stats and base weapon damage would be locked.

I also believe that the critical damage change only became necessary becuase ascended gear was introduced. Ascended gear totally threw off balance, giving players more power and virtually allowing them to one shot other people. Now it’s growing out of hand and a stat combination that was perfectly fine to begin with suddenly needs to be changed. Power creep only ever creates problems, it doesn’t create more depth or adds any extra value to the game.

juno.1840:

In short you support my argument Jocksy. You want to win because you were better, not because you had an advantage because you invested more time in WvW than your competition.

Do not put in my mouth words I didn’t say.
I do not support your argument, I think it’s ridiculous that someone wearing blue should have the same stats as someone wearing exotics.
And, I find it riddiculous that people cry over stat difference when they loose, while they would still have lost if stats were normalised.

Getting to know your profession, its skills, the other professions and their skills might prove to be a greater time-sink for most players than the time a bus player will need to get the gard stacks.

Getting better, would it be stat-wise or play-wise takes time.
And it’s all right.

juno.1840:

I fully support the desire to be individual, to craft your appearance, your build, your role. My proposal doesn’t inhibit that.

juno.1840:

A possible solution:

(1) Remove time-based power creep features like guard stacks
(2) Normalize stats in WvW. If you have a piece of zerker gear, then you get a normalize set of stats for that gear, regardless of player level and regardless of gear quality (rare, exotic, ascended, etc). Every player with a zerker chest piece has the same stats on it, period.

(1) getting better takes time – seeing someone with stack indicates they played the game more – gives an idea that that person might have a better gameplay than I.
(2) giving blue the same stats as exotics is a disadvantage to the player who took time to get exotics. Would make that player’s time meaningless.

Please stop. If you think guard stacks are in any way a determining factor in an even numbers engagement you need to WvW with better players.

Normalizing gear is bad. If you honestly think Ascended is much more powerful than Exotic you probably haven’t done the math. Hint: it’s not. Exotic vs. Rare vs. etc., though, is significant. Except Exotic gear is extremely cheap and takes no time at all to acquire. If you have difficulty gearing your char fully in Exotic gear there’s something seriously wrong with your playing.

Boonprot.6274:

Please stop. If you think guard stacks are in any way a determining factor in an even numbers engagement you need to WvW with better players.

Normalizing gear is bad. If you honestly think Ascended is much more powerful than Exotic you probably haven’t done the math. Hint: it’s not. Exotic vs. Rare vs. etc., though, is significant. Except Exotic gear is extremely cheap and takes no time at all to acquire. If you have difficulty gearing your char fully in Exotic gear there’s something seriously wrong with your playing.

Since according to you the stacks and the ascended gear do not determine the outcome of a fight, why not just get rid of it alltogther then? Since it does nothing it’s a useless addition to the game. Right?

Elmo Benchwarmer.3025:

Boonprot.6274:

Please stop. If you think guard stacks are in any way a determining factor in an even numbers engagement you need to WvW with better players.

Normalizing gear is bad. If you honestly think Ascended is much more powerful than Exotic you probably haven’t done the math. Hint: it’s not. Exotic vs. Rare vs. etc., though, is significant. Except Exotic gear is extremely cheap and takes no time at all to acquire. If you have difficulty gearing your char fully in Exotic gear there’s something seriously wrong with your playing.

Since according to you the stacks and the ascended gear do not determine the outcome of a fight, why not just get rid of it alltogther then? Since it does nothing it’s a useless addition to the game. Right?

Won’t hear any arguments from me lol.

Combining WvW ranks will give all of my characters guard leech and applied fortitude.

And the amount of time it takes to get them and full exotic gear and runes and level 80 etc is a very small percentage of the amount of time the average player plays this game.

Ascended weapons and armor, however, are a bit of a different story and are the biggest offense to-date imo on this topic.

That being said, it would be nice for WvW to be scaled just like PvP with everyone at level 80 with equalized gear stats. The biggest problem is the rally mechanic, which currently makes un-equal players a liability instead of an asset, and that’s not the environment that we should want.

Solstice.1097:

That being said, it would be nice for WvW to be scaled just like PvP with everyone at level 80 with equalized gear stats. The biggest problem is the rally mechanic, which currently makes un-equal players a liability instead of an asset, and that’s not the environment that we should want.

This is one of the most intelligent posts in almost all of the WvW subforums. The absolute last thing an organized guild needs is a rally war, especially when they’re already outnumbered. I’ve been in many engagements where a single, non-guilded player has rallied almost 15 people. 15. That’s more than half the size of our regular guild group, and there are still more enemies to kill. On the one hand, the rally mechanic is important because, no matter how good your group is, people can mess up and die, and ressing them is important. On the other hand, to have 1/4-1/2 of an enemy group rally because some uplevel ranger deemed it prudent to engage alongside your guild is absurd. I’m getting off topic, though.

If you standardized the gearing in WvW you’d be dangerously close to ruining what makes WvW so unique: its gearing. Part of the reason why sPvP is stale and limiting is due to your stats being confined to poorly-constructed trinkets. This, in turn, limits the available builds and causes the meta to stagnate. Case-in-point: D/D ele fell out of favour in sPvP partly because of successive nerfs to its survivability, and partly due to S/D being a much more powerful option. In WvW, though? Completely different story. Thanks to the ability to tailor your gear piece-by-piece, you can maintain extremely high survivability stats and still pump out damage with 2k Power and 80%+ Crit Damage. Turning WvW into sPvP would be the biggest mistake ANet could make.

I think WvW is unique because of the format — not because you ground out some gear over time.

Your example on D/D ele is good, but not because of “the ability to tailor your gear piece by piece”. It’s more likely due to point-capture, small environment vs. open field, large environment.

To everyone that says the time-based power bonuses are “not determinant” regarding winning and losing — then as Elmo so nicely put it:

“…why not just get rid of it alltogther then? Since it does nothing it’s a useless addition to the game. Right?”

If you want to win due to skill (and time invested in getting more skillful), then remove all other advantages from the equation. Regardless of you how spin it, unequal stats provide an advantage. Whether or not you think the advantage is impacting is meaningless — it still exists.

juno.1840:

I think WvW is unique because of the format — not because you ground out some gear over time.

Your example on D/D ele is good, but not because of “the ability to tailor your gear piece by piece”. It’s more likely due to point-capture, small environment vs. open field, large environment.

To everyone that says the time-based power bonuses are “not determinant” regarding winning and losing — then as Elmo so nicely put it:

“…why not just get rid of it alltogther then? Since it does nothing it’s a useless addition to the game. Right?”

If you want to win due to skill (and time invested in getting more skillful), then remove all other advantages from the equation. Regardless of you how spin it, unequal stats provide an advantage. Whether or not you think the advantage is impacting is meaningless — it still exists.

Here’s where I see a difference. In GW2 exotic gear is beyond simple to acquire. If it takes longer than a week for a completely brand new player to get a full set, they’re doing something wrong. Ascended gear offers very little over Exotikittentle enough so that it won’t be the determining factor in an even fight. HOW you gear, though, can help determine the outcome of an engagement. If you’re better at intelligently gearing your char than someone else, why on earth shouldn’t you have that advantage? How you gear a character is an extension of individual skill.

tl;dr: Since endgame Exotic gear is so quick to acquire, and Ascended offers very little in terms of stat increases, GW2 doesn’t really have a gear bias.

@Boonprot: The proposal does NOT take away your ability to mix-and-match your gear set. All it does it make stats independent of item rarity (so ascended == exotic == rare).

Regardless of the severity of the gear bias, it exists. Simply eliminate it. Nobody should be upset about this unless they enjoy having a time-based power advantage. So far not a single Player in this topic has said “I want an advantage over other players with lesser gear and WxP points”.

Elmo Benchwarmer.3025:

That’s just a non argument. Other people will show up and tell you many people quit because ascended gear was forced on them.

Also keep in mind that gear normalization doesn’t mean less gear choices. You would still have all the gear that you can also have in PvE (even Dire gear or Perplexity runes that create problems on their own). Only the number of stats and base weapon damage would be locked.

There is already a place in the game where players get normalized stats/gear and that is sPvP. Why create TWO areas in the game that are trying to achieve the same goal and completely remove the other?

If they remove gear/stat advantages from WvW, there is an entire group of players who will have nowhere to go in GW2. So yes it is a valid argument. This argument would be similar to putting gear/stat advantages in sPvP which would be OK to me but I am guessing a large group of players would quit if they did.

Many players (myself included) want to use the gear we EARNED. We want to advance our characters in the game and strive for new items and powers. If a player doesn’t want to play in that environment… sPvP awaits.

I enjoy having a time-based advantage.
When fighting people who have a greater time-based advantage, I do not see much difference than when fighting someone who does not.

I do not intend to grind for ascended, but for those who put time in it, they deserve to get it.
I do have WvW ranks enough to have defense and offense bonus, but most of the time, I do not chase guards to get it. I have a sigil weapon equipped, and others that don’t in my inventory, but I forget to swap 99% of the time.
Does not change much in my fights…
But those who go through the trouble of getting them, and using them properly do, imho, deserve the so-called “advantage”.

I feel like it’s ok that someone who’s been playing longer has something to show for it.

Jocksy.3415:

I enjoy having a time-based advantage.
When fighting people who have a greater time-based advantage, I do not see much difference than when fighting someone who does not.

I do not intend to grind for ascended, but for those who put time in it, they deserve to get it.
I do have WvW ranks enough to have defense and offense bonus, but most of the time, I do not chase guards to get it. I have a sigil weapon equipped, and others that don’t in my inventory, but I forget to swap 99% of the time.
Does not change much in my fights…
But those who go through the trouble of getting them, and using them properly do, imho, deserve the so-called “advantage”.

I feel like it’s ok that someone who’s been playing longer has something to show for it.

How you use it is irrelevant — my point is it exists. You should win your fights because you’re more skillful or your team employs better strategy. This isn’t war where the biggest gun matters… it’s a competitive mode in a game.

Ask yourself if you want your win “tainted” by the stigma of having higher stats than your opponent. Do you want someone to say “hey you only won that fight because you had guard stacks and ascended gear”? It doesn’t matter if that’s the reason you won or not — the point is the advantage existed.

If you feel you need those advantages, then maybe you shouldn’t be playing the competitive modes to begin with.

When I’m looking for equal fight, I go duelling in PvP…

WvW is the Wild… Never know what to expect, one way or the other…

Keep it that way.

Jocksy.3415:

When I’m looking for equal fight, I go duelling in PvP…

WvW is the Wild… Never know what to expect, one way or the other…

Keep it that way.

And it stays that way with stat normalization… as you’ve said yourself “it makes little difference”. If you don’t want me putting words in your mouth, maybe you shouldn’t speak them to begin with.

It’s terrible, but this is the way Anet’s moving with the game. You’d better believe that infusion slot vertical progression is coming next to make this gap even larger.