Guild Wars 2

So here yesterday we had an amazing battle with Piken Square and Abbadons Mouth in Piken Garrison. The battle went on for 21 min (yes we times it) and I think most WvW oriented guild have had a similar experience sometime.

The thing that made the battle so long was well play by Piken and Abbadon, but unfortunately also a mechanic which I would like to be adressed = bannering of dead lords. Everyone I talk to, is against the priciple that you can banner res a dead lord and I can’t imagine that is was Anet’s intention to make this skill res dead NPC’s?

So this thread suggesting a dicussion of how we can adress the bannering of dead NPC’s.

Here are some of my suggestions:
- Remove the fact that lord can be ressed by warrior banner when he is dead
- Give the lords in Towers, Keeps etc. a downed state in which he can be bannered. We see down state more and more in PvE, so it should be easy to integrate.
- Give the lord a debuff so he can’t be bannered for 5 min after a banner res

What do you guys think of this?

Lastly I would like to say, that I don’t in any way blame Piken’s warriors for using this mechanic, we would have done the same!

All good ideas, any/all of them would be a welcome change

Chrhal.4983:

- Remove the fact that lord can be ressed by resurrection skills when he is dead

Fixed it for you. Getting a bit tired that warrior gets all the blame when there is multiple professions who can do this.

Sure, warrior is probally best for it as he can keep moving while channeling, has the lowest channel time and has immunities, but still warriors ain’t the only one and I know a lot of people who have used ress skills to ress lord with other professions than warrior.

If they remove the ability to rez lords with the banner, they will have to remove it from the other skills. Also not every lord rez was from a banner, in my case.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/wuv/wuv/Banner-lord-Question/first#post2641387

Tbh, I’d rather they fix the endless list of bugs and exploits, for example http://i.imgur.com/97In1Uc.jpg and people using Quaggan tonic to hide in Garri which was alot last night.

Paavotar.3971:

Chrhal.4983:

- Remove the fact that lord can be ressed by resurrection skills when he is dead

Fixed it for you. Getting a bit tired that warrior gets all the blame when there is multiple professions who can do this.

This was not a question of blaiming warriors it’s a question about the skill mechanic of resurrecting a dead NPC. So yes of course I mean other resurrection skills too.

Veeber.3192:

Tbh, I’d rather they fix the endless list of bugs and exploits, for example http://i.imgur.com/97In1Uc.jpg and people using Quaggan tonic to hide in Garri which was alot last night.

Also this was not a question of whether I would like this fixed now INSTEAD of all the other bugs and exploits in WvW, but to bring attention to this issue.

Apparently I was very unclear in my opening post

I’m absolutely fine with the ability to res NPCs. It helps to stop PVDooring if you got a warrior on hand to run in and banner, followed by other warriors in case there was a map zerg waiting for him.

If you can’t stop a lord from being ressed, well, you don’t deserve to take the keep.

Reverence.6915:

I’m absolutely fine with the ability to res NPCs. It helps to stop PVDooring if you got a warrior on hand to run in and banner, followed by other warriors in case there was a map zerg waiting for him.

If you can’t stop a lord from being ressed, well, you don’t deserve to take the keep.

I’m sure that you are aware of people being able to take waypoints during attacks of for example garrison. When they take the waypoint they are invulnerable for 5 seconds. How do you propose to stop 5 warriors that are all invulnerable and prevent them from ressing the lord?

Chrhal.4983:

Reverence.6915:

I’m absolutely fine with the ability to res NPCs. It helps to stop PVDooring if you got a warrior on hand to run in and banner, followed by other warriors in case there was a map zerg waiting for him.

If you can’t stop a lord from being ressed, well, you don’t deserve to take the keep.

I’m sure that you are aware of people being able to take waypoints during attacks of for example garrison. When they take the waypoint they are invulnerable for 5 seconds. How do you propose to stop 5 warriors that are all invulnerable and prevent them from ressing the lord?

You drag the lord away from the waypoint and guard it. Stance warriors only have a few seconds of invulnerability, usually not long enough to run through an entire zerg. It’s been done hundreds and thousands of times.

I prefer the latter two options personally but any change on this front is welcome. It is far too easy to just kamikaze resurrect the lord for long periods of time with no real strategy required. This should have been changed shortly after the game launched and the fact that ArenaNet have still not addressed the abuse of the mechanic is simply abysmal. Any of the changes you proposed would be a welcome shift of the status quo.

I personally don’t think this should be changed. This mechanic has provided untold hours of battles inside enemy garrison’s. Not to mention the additional loot bags!
Taking an enemy structure is supposed to be harder than defending it!

Chrhal.4983:

So here yesterday we had an amazing battle with Piken Square and Abbadons Mouth in Piken Garrison. The battle went on for 21 min (yes we times it) and I think most WvW oriented guild have had a similar experience sometime.

The thing that made the battle so long was well play by Piken and Abbadon, but unfortunately also a mechanic which I would like to be adressed = bannering of dead lords. Everyone I talk to, is against the priciple that you can banner res a dead lord and I can’t imagine that is was Anet’s intention to make this skill res dead NPC’s?

So this thread suggesting a dicussion of how we can adress the bannering of dead NPC’s.

Here are some of my suggestions:
- Remove the fact that lord can be ressed by warrior banner when he is dead
- Give the lords in Towers, Keeps etc. a downed state in which he can be bannered. We see down state more and more in PvE, so it should be easy to integrate.
- Give the lord a debuff so he can’t be bannered for 5 min after a banner res

What do you guys think of this?

Lastly I would like to say, that I don’t in any way blame Piken’s warriors for using this mechanic, we would have done the same!

21 minute battle? Dude, that IS EPIC! You should be celebrating such a glorious battle instead of what you are doing now. As for your idea(s), NO! It will remove those EPIC long and glorious battles.

It’s a bit stupid, We had Kodash suicide Bannering Their zerg for almost 2 Hours last night in their EB keep. I did get Howl from it but I still got bored afer 15 mins.

Solution:
-Change the mechanics of conquest capping.
-Make the waypoint open or close depending on a new circle to capture at another location then at the lords room.
-Move the waypoint

i like the idea of adding the downstate to the lord, and remove the ability to banner except in the downstate (just like players). couple that with making hard rezzing fully defeated players or npcs out of combat only and things get a lot more interesting and fun for both sides imo.

DevonCarver.5370:

We’ve been discussing this a lot recently and we agree that something needs to change. When we have a change that we are ready to talk about we’ll make sure to make it known to everyone.

Best news I’ve heard all week.

Free transfers are up there as well.

thanks Devon. hopefully sooner rather than later

DevonCarver.5370:

We’ve been discussing this a lot recently and we agree that something needs to change. When we have a change that we are ready to talk about we’ll make sure to make it known to everyone.

Talk about understatement of the year. At least we know given the current track record, we can expect a path-forward plan on how they are proposing to release a CDI on the subject around the start of the 4th WvW season in 2015, which after given much need attention, will result in a fix that disables bannering (an EXTREMELY complicated thing to do) on structure lords by 2016.

Also Devon, please see this thread for an even more pressing issue: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/wuv/wuv/Hard-Rezzing-in-WvW/

I don’t want this changed – most of the epic fights I’ve had were hour long sustained fights defending/taking keeps.

DevonCarver.5370:

We’ve been discussing this a lot recently and we agree that something needs to change. When we have a change that we are ready to talk about we’ll make sure to make it known to everyone.

Thank you for your response Devon, and great to hear from you again! Looking forward to hearing about the changes. I would, myself, like to see the downed state integrated to lords instead of being able to banner them from death.

DevonCarver.5370:

We’ve been discussing this a lot recently and we agree that something needs to change. When we have a change that we are ready to talk about we’ll make sure to make it known to everyone.

This is sad news, I have been involved in massive epic 2-3 hour long fights thanks to the bannering of lords, now those are going to be gone, replaced by a 3-5 minute fight, then move on to another fortification.

Another nail in defending, another skill nerfed.

The fix to me is an easy one. Leave the current skills and bannering in place just don’t reset the circle timer. Seems like an easy fix to implement and resolves the real problem.

The silly part isn’t the idea that a warrior can rush in a hold the circle for an extra few seconds by bring a lord up. The silly part is that the entire process starts all over again when that happens.

Of all the issues with WvW, this is not a priority. In fact, I don’t even see why so many people complain about it. Bannering adds more strategy to a fight. It requires groups to coordinate on who will banner and when. It is also a great defense tactic without adding more lame siege pieces.

Everyone cries about the game being about the fights. OHHH those turtles they should come out and fight. Well here you go. They bannered the lord now you have to keep fighting. You want proven victory and dominance then sustain your force during combat. Stay alive maintain the majority, control momentum and dominate. Communicate and eliminate the opponent that can res the lord. Stop whining about having to stay in the fight. You came in the keep / tower thinking you had what it took to be the baddest mama jama on the map now prove it.

you know what i tire of? dev’s making decisions that affect the gameplay of the game w/ out input of the player base.

remember the input system you had during early testing anet? at least an opinion system in game that people who play wvw can opt into (if not pop up like early testing had 1-5 rating & make a statement) on changes you’re thinking about making, before you dive into those changes and let your player base get a feel for your next sprints. while its not a totally reliable metric, its something more than basing decisions on the vocal few who make it to the forums and impact the majority who may or may not have had problems with the existing systems.

Reverence.6915:

If you can’t stop a lord from being ressed, well, you don’t deserve to take the keep.

lol, biggest piece of crap i ever heard^^. I had to search to find the occasion/link where we had a major problem with this against Gunnar’s Hold (AKA “Banner’s Hold”). we were 3 x Large Guild groups trying to take a T3 garri from a full zone blob (they ended up queuing for map to switch to their upscaled warriors by the end of it just for the sole purpose of bannering the Lord. The 3 Guilds were VoTF/Punk/Kale, we tried everything for a very long time (the link i am posting was only 1hr 10mins which was just a portion of the battle), we tried on many occasions 1 group in circle, 1 group drag lord to a secluded location while the 3rd group is busy fighting, which seemed the most logical theory to go about this and works a lot of the time. But this time the Lord was still getting bannered over and over. As I say towards end it seemed every other person was a banner warrior, people were loggin off their main characters to bring in their warrior alts. We even tried blobbing all 3 guilds together at one point, which would normally go against our principal but still failed. The mechanic is clearly broken unlike what Reverence.6915 “that u don’t deserve to take the keep” lol. Trust me if you got 3 Large guild groups against a pug zone blob like that in your Garri (especially with VoTF at it’s prime, in their GW2 Career) if your Garri is still standing, then there is something wrong with the mechanics not the gameplay. The enemy blob was no longer a blob half way through, it was a queued map of mainly warriors hiding behind every wall/pillar, on every ledge, around every corner, when u chase 5 different warriors in different directions one drops from above to banner the lord with many more w8ing in case he fails, major nightmare.

Don’t get me wrong I have bannered many lords and will continue to do so while we still can. And I will in no way blame Gunnar’s for bannering the lord, they done well to keep their Garri in this instance, but it still doesn’t take from the fact that it is a broken mechanic.

Found this to show u a small portion of the battle, god knows how many times lord was bannered before we gave up.
http://www.twitch.tv/xsuperxgw2/c/3053707

Straegen.2938:

The fix to me is an easy one. Leave the current skills and bannering in place just don’t reset the circle timer. Seems like an easy fix to implement and resolves the real problem.

The silly part isn’t the idea that a warrior can rush in a hold the circle for an extra few seconds by bring a lord up. The silly part is that the entire process starts all over again when that happens.

Seems reasonable to me.

They would need to add a way for defenders to decap the attackers progress though. Otherwise a failed keep take early in the day that almost succeeded with affect a battle an hour or two later.

Maybe it slowly sets back their progress every 10 seconds the lord is alive? like every 10 seconds 1/10th of the progress bar is lost.

Draygo.9473:

They would need to add a way for defenders to decap the attackers progress though. Otherwise a failed keep take early in the day that almost succeeded with affect a battle an hour or two later.

Maybe it slowly sets back their progress every 10 seconds the lord is alive? like every 10 seconds 1/10th of the progress bar is lost.

Have the circle reset when the current “Defend the Keep/Tower” event ends and there are no enemies within the circle.

mcarswell.3768:

i like the idea of adding the downstate to the lord, and remove the ability to banner except in the downstate (just like players). couple that with making hard rezzing fully defeated players or npcs out of combat only and things get a lot more interesting and fun for both sides imo.

This is the best solution imho because it teaches players that npcs have the same mechanics as players and that you dont have to relearn how to play around key npcs.

Wait you mean the defenders were successful so game over?

Draygo.9473:

They would need to add a way for defenders to decap the attackers progress though. Otherwise a failed keep take early in the day that almost succeeded with affect a battle an hour or two later.

Maybe it slowly sets back their progress every 10 seconds the lord is alive? like every 10 seconds 1/10th of the progress bar is lost.

The Lord chest timer already does this. If a server kills the lord the first time, a chest drops. Subsequent banners don’t create more chests. At some point it resets. Basically if the lord doesn’t drop a chest when it dies, the timer doesn’t get reset.

As I see it the big advantage to this system is that it probably requires a ridiculously small amount of coding/testing versus some new mechanic.

I like it when the lord is bannered and it makes the fight last longer and more epic.

Nothing wrong with bannering, you just need to try to make sure the warriors do not make it near the lord to banner him..

If they do take out bannering, I hope they balance it out by making the lords as tough as the lords in EoTM. Right now,t he lords are a joke and go down too quick (so who cares if they are bannered).

Straegen.2938:

The fix to me is an easy one. Leave the current skills and bannering in place just don’t reset the circle timer. Seems like an easy fix to implement and resolves the real problem.

The silly part isn’t the idea that a warrior can rush in a hold the circle for an extra few seconds by bring a lord up. The silly part is that the entire process starts all over again when that happens.

this seems like a pretty good middle ground.

Andrew Clear.1750:

I like it when the lord is bannered and it makes the fight last longer and more epic.

Nothing wrong with bannering, you just need to try to make sure the warriors do not make it near the lord to banner him..

If they do take out bannering, I hope they balance it out by making the lords as tough as the lords in EoTM. Right now,t he lords are a joke and go down too quick (so who cares if they are bannered).

I’m fine for the most part with reviving the keep lord. What I an NOT ok with is how everyone calls it bannering and are forgetting that 6 other classes are able to revive downed allies/dead npc’s as well ( I say 6 others because Mesmer illusion of life does not work, and thief does not have one). I have seen an increasing number of players who are not warriors using their class revival skills. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revival

So calling it bannering is somewhat misleading.

While I am not inherently against removing the ability to banner the lord. But if you remove this mechanic that more often than not prolongs awesome fights (experienced both as invader and defender), please replace it by something better. Don’t just remove the mechanic and leave everything else as is because the cap timer is in my opinion ridiculously fast, so without allowing to revive the lord with banners, these great fun fights will be reduced to quick suicide contest pushes to the lord ring and will be over in mere seconds.

So, sure, remove the mechanic, but ONLY if you give us something in return that guarantees prolonging those amazing fights we have! Otherwise I will rabble.

Moopy.7908:

While I am not inherently against removing the ability to banner the lord. But if you remove this mechanic that more often than not prolongs awesome fights (experienced both as invader and defender), please replace it by something better. Don’t just remove the mechanic and leave everything else as is because the cap timer is in my opinion ridiculously fast, so without allowing to revive the lord with banners, these great fun fights will be reduced to quick suicide contest pushes to the lord ring and will be over in mere seconds.

So, sure, remove the mechanic, but ONLY if you give us something in return that guarantees prolonging those amazing fights we have! Otherwise I will rabble.

I actually agree. been there as an invader and a defender in those fights as well.
those fights are indeed quite fun.

However, excessive use of the banner on the lord can sometimes be what kills the motivation of the invading party aside from buying time for wp timer. introducing a cap on how many times a lord could be bannered per minute/x might make things work out better or use a debuff to pose a reduction in health and states on the lord that gets bannered for x amount of time increasing in intensity each time the lord gets rezzed while the debuff is on.

Fallout.1798:

Andrew Clear.1750:

I like it when the lord is bannered and it makes the fight last longer and more epic.

Nothing wrong with bannering, you just need to try to make sure the warriors do not make it near the lord to banner him..

If they do take out bannering, I hope they balance it out by making the lords as tough as the lords in EoTM. Right now,t he lords are a joke and go down too quick (so who cares if they are bannered).

I’m fine for the most part with reviving the keep lord. What I an NOT ok with is how everyone calls it bannering and are forgetting that 6 other classes are able to revive downed allies/dead npc’s as well ( I say 6 others because Mesmer illusion of life does not work, and thief does not have one). I have seen an increasing number of players who are not warriors using their class revival skills. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revival

So calling it bannering is somewhat misleading.

Actually, last time i checked, you need 4 Elixir R or 4 Shadow Refuge to revive a NPC.

As stated above, removing the mechanic completely is a bad idea since defenders need every advantage they can get since the NPCs sure aren’t helpful. Personally, I would prefer nothing be done because also as stated above, it prolongs fights and creates epic moments in WvW. Basically, you don’t remember those times you roll over the defenders (if there are any) and instantly take the keep, you remember the hard fought battles that last for 20 minutes as you said or in the case of JQBL’s garrison today literally 4 hours of being assailed. Either way, without banner rezzing lords, we never would have had enough time to respond to some of the attacks and it just would’ve been another easily forgettable moment for all parties involved and generally it is a necessary tactic for buying time for the defenders to show up and fight.

That aside, I think a good compromise would be to give the lord increasingly lower health similar to the repeated downed state debuff. Something like a debuff that reduces the health of the lord to 70%-80% of the original health and make them stack multiplicatively. Naturally, they would gradually wear off if the lord is out of combat just liked the downed state debuffs do.

kudos to oslaf for having a similar idea, didn’t catch it as I skimmed the thread the first time

I do agree with bannering of Lords being a tad silly.

However, you are complaining about a 21 min fight at a Garrison? I can recall a 40+ min Bay fight from top of my head. Those fights are what I hope for in WvW when I can’t be bothered solo roaming.

Stupendous Man.4920:

However, you are complaining about a 21 min fight at a Garrison? I can recall a 40+ min Bay fight from top of my head. Those fights are what I hope for in WvW when I can’t be bothered solo roaming.

Haha wat… That’s not even long. I remember a roughly 1 hour and 30 minutes fight for garrison once. They just kept bannering the lord. It was impossible for either side to win – they had too many players there yet wasnt organized enough to push us out. We killed the lord so many times we lost count.

Brought battle fatigue to a whole new level.

Still think the NPCs should suffer same limitations as a player – they go into downstate rather than fully killed (with an appropriate huge amount of HP of course). There they can be ressed. If they are fully killed, they cant.

Reverence.6915:

I’m absolutely fine with the ability to res NPCs. It helps to stop PVDooring if you got a warrior on hand to run in and banner, followed by other warriors in case there was a map zerg waiting for him.

If you can’t stop a lord from being ressed, well, you don’t deserve to take the keep.

On the flip side if you can’t hold a keep without suicide run bannering…you probably don’t deserve to hold the keep either.

Suggestions:

1) Guards/Lords get a downed state. This keeps them in line with players mechanics wise. They get to rally off of kills just like players too.

2) Rezzing the Lord is treated the same as rezzing a player in a cap circle; it does not reset progress. You have to kill/push all hostiles out of the circle to decap.

3) No immunity buff for the Lord on rez or capture. Either have enough competent forces to defend a newly spawned/rezzed Lord or lose the objective.

4) Guards/Lord will try to pick up nearby downed friendlies. Just make sure to give them a logic switch where they only do that if friendlies outnumber hostiles to help prevent them from going full kitten and not fighting back.

Reverence.6915:

Chrhal.4983:

Reverence.6915:

I’m absolutely fine with the ability to res NPCs. It helps to stop PVDooring if you got a warrior on hand to run in and banner, followed by other warriors in case there was a map zerg waiting for him.

If you can’t stop a lord from being ressed, well, you don’t deserve to take the keep.

I’m sure that you are aware of people being able to take waypoints during attacks of for example garrison. When they take the waypoint they are invulnerable for 5 seconds. How do you propose to stop 5 warriors that are all invulnerable and prevent them from ressing the lord?

You drag the lord away from the waypoint and guard it. Stance warriors only have a few seconds of invulnerability, usually not long enough to run through an entire zerg. It’s been done hundreds and thousands of times.

If you cant run through with a warrior maybe search an other game. Hello kitty online maybe.

To respond to all the suggestions about treating the lord as a player and the idea that he should only get banner-revived in down state and get health reductions etc. There is one major flaw in this and that is that the NPC is NOT a player.

He will NOT dodge away from fight upon reviving, he will NOT try to avoid combat while healing up. He will also NOT try to stay close to friendly players for buffs and another revive should he need it. What he DOES do, is chase the enemy zerg down in his lonesome against what could be 60+ players!

I’d say we need better solutions than treating an NPC as a player will not fix the problem.

My suggestion that I can come up with at the moment is increase the capture time required for a tower/keep (the time spent uncontested in the circle) by at least 4 times the length and then don’t reset it upon revival of the lord. I fear this may still reduce the chance for epic fights, but we have to meet half-way on something we can all live with.

With the above plan, it could still very well be possible to banner the lord in sequence, combined with contesting of players to keep the fight going.

I would be fine with this if they added something to help defenders aswell…

With all the offensive WxP masteries, tower gates are melting way too fast for a zerg to respond, the white swords take too long to pop then zergs still have to get there to defend the objective and the only thing that can delay the cap could be a Battle Standard from a Warrior…

Ideas to help defending servers if they implemented this:

1. When a towers fortified upgrade finishes, the gates also fortify.

2. Watergate at garrison, inner gate: Never reinforces at all.

3. Change the Lord Supervisor in keeps and towers to match those of Edge Of The Mists. (The ones in there can’t be solo’d and are actually pretty tanky, don’t die easily.)

4. Any damage greater than 2,000 in one hit applied to the tower INSTANTLY gets white swords so the defenders know there is siege placed, not 30 seconds later after 3-4 superior rams have a reinforced gate down to 10% already.

My personal opinion and concern is that all WvW has been reduced to lately is a giant karma train with friends, especially since Golems and superior siege were buy-able from the trading post and the introductory of WxP with masteries that specialize in taking things quicker.

As someone already pointed out there are other classes that can already do this. Problem is the main class that can do this is the one that is making up 50%+ of your enemy numbers. Oh and it has easy access to 4s of vulnerability (8s if traited correctly) the best mobility in the game, excellent passive healing, high HP etc etc.

Personally I’d say make the skill for warriors not function in WvWvW. Might actually see some diverse gameplay/group makeup as well.

If reviving keep lords get removed, then breaking into structures and capping it must also be made harder. It’s already too easy as it is.

In real life, it is said you need 10 attackers for every defender in a siege. In GW2, it’s more of a 1:1. Removing the mechanic to revive lords will just destroy what little defensive play we have left in the game.

DevonCarver.5370:

We’ve been discussing this a lot recently and we agree that something needs to change. When we have a change that we are ready to talk about we’ll make sure to make it known to everyone.

How about you make the Champs/Lords go into Downed state first,at this time he can still be bannered.If he completely dies like a normal player,he can no longer be bannered..But can still be hard rezzed offc.

I agree that something needs to be done to prevent all the banner/glyph/signet rezes. Personally I think a debuff needs to hit the Lord. After 3-5 banners are dropped he’s dead and can’t be bannered again for 10 mins. I also think the circle for Garri and Bay needs to be smaller but that’s for another topic.