Guild Wars 2

wedo.3049:

you all make fun of this guy, but truth is if a decent/ to good player is behind a permastealth thief they CANT be killed . So yes stealth does need to be reworked, gw2 is the only game that helps stealthers restealth and stealth and stealth again over and over.

Just negate his stealth by simply not allow him to stealth? Two people can completely lock down a thief and kill him with ease… This is even easier with 5 or more people, so there’s really no reason as to why they couldn’t kill these thieves.

aelflune.8590:

DeeSystm.1256:

That was the point

Seems like just bad argumentation. We’re not both necessarily right.

Aberrant.6749:

Prolly = probably. It’s not as slanted as I think you think it is. I’ve had many OK thieves drop dead in stealth while trying to get away because of how I plaid the fight.

You should lose any 1v2 if the skill levels are equal regardless of the classes involved. Thieves end fights quickly in these situations… yes. Thief isn’t the only class that can come out of kitten nowhere and take you down very quickly though.

If you could consistently win in a 1v2 at the same OK or above skill level then your class would be OP and in need of a nerf. I agree… people care about fairness. I don’t see why it’s only fair when people can not be killed quickly in a 1v2 on their own class though >.>

Um, you seem to be the one giving the slanted account. I said 50-50, and I think that’s fair given that there are variations in skill level and performance (depending on external factors) between players who have ‘OK’ skills.

Also, NPC guard and thief vs. a player is not a 2v1. This is not theory crafting. And my point is we should be talking about spontaneous fights that actually happen in WvW all the time. Their spontaneity gives stealthed players (with stealth-related bonuses on top of the element of surprise) a pretty large advantage. Assuming players of equal skill, clearly the player who hits first and does significant damage (and then disappears for a short while) has an advantage. This seems obvious and yet so many people are not honest enough to admit it. I wonder why.

Many classes are perfectly capable of sniping a person at 1500 range. Elementalists can also RtL Bomb someone out of nowhere.

Grimwolf.7163:

aelflune.8590:

DeeSystm.1256:

That was the point

Seems like just bad argumentation. We’re not both necessarily right.

Aberrant.6749:

Prolly = probably. It’s not as slanted as I think you think it is. I’ve had many OK thieves drop dead in stealth while trying to get away because of how I plaid the fight.

You should lose any 1v2 if the skill levels are equal regardless of the classes involved. Thieves end fights quickly in these situations… yes. Thief isn’t the only class that can come out of kitten nowhere and take you down very quickly though.

If you could consistently win in a 1v2 at the same OK or above skill level then your class would be OP and in need of a nerf. I agree… people care about fairness. I don’t see why it’s only fair when people can not be killed quickly in a 1v2 on their own class though >.>

Um, you seem to be the one giving the slanted account. I said 50-50, and I think that’s fair given that there are variations in skill level and performance (depending on external factors) between players who have ‘OK’ skills.

Also, NPC guard and thief vs. a player is not a 2v1. This is not theory crafting. And my point is we should be talking about spontaneous fights that actually happen in WvW all the time. Their spontaneity gives stealthed players (with stealth-related bonuses on top of the element of surprise) a pretty large advantage. Assuming players of equal skill, clearly the player who hits first and does significant damage (and then disappears for a short while) has an advantage. This seems obvious and yet so many people are not honest enough to admit it. I wonder why.

Many classes are perfectly capable of sniping a person at 1500 range. Elementalists can also RtL Bomb someone out of nowhere.

Seems like…..??? Why ya gotta get all technical here for son? While you we’re thinkin about wether kitten is sound or not, that thief jus unloaded a cd-bs combo on ur kitten , twice.

Shoulda been thinkin about whats goin on, not how it happened, at this stage in the game, you should already know.

If we are both not necessarily right, then idgaf, opinions opinions, if you wanna argue opinions then, meh, all i’m pointing out is I don’t see thieves win every fight, I see them loose or run away more often than anything else, oh so they killed you after resetting 3 times??? So they won 1/4 of the fights gg man, gg.

I’ll be leaving this here and forgetting about it, thnx for readin.

Straegen.2938:

XII.9401:

Roll a thief, get farmed by them or leave the game. I thought Anet’s position on the matter for a year made it clear for everyone?

This only applies if said player is inexperienced, up leveled or simply a poor WvW player.

Best class in the game with the most kills on probably every server, Guardian. We know the player with THE most kills across all servers is a guardian. I will put Alt Healing up against stealth in 3+vX any day.

AAAAAAAaaaahahahaha..and the siege monkey steps away from pressing 1-2-3 to voice his expert opinion..

Esprit Dumort.3109:

But, does any other profession have so many complaint threads? Combined they wouldn’t compare to those for Thieves. Obviously there’s nothing wrong with stealth and their escape mechanics with so many threads saying it’s broken, just a bunch of “L2P” players. /s

D/D bunker eles, before the last couple updates were just as broken and they got adjusted, but the complaint threads on Invinci-D/D eles was never anywhere near as many as for Thieves.

Ah, but that’s the beauty of it. Just like back then, the guys with the ridiculous class will always use the same arguments. “Just L2P”. “This isn’t a big deal, nobody cares about winning a 1v1 in the middle of nowhere”. “I beat D/D Eles all the time.” Etc. Always the same. I wonder if Thief defenders actually think anybody believes them.

As much as people like to think that making feedback threads work on Anet, I don’t think it’s enough. It has been my experience that game developers like numbers. Metrics. Tournament results. Things like that. Blizzard’s method for Starcraft 2 is very simple. 50% winrate for every race. That’s it. Occasionally they listen to things tournament players complain about and make small, minuscule changes. But mostly, they like to have hard evidence that things are awry. Evidence so real you can touch it.

How long have Warriors been in the state that they are in PvP despite multiple SotG where they were mentioned as lackluster? How long did Necromancers go without any adjustment? For how long have Mesmers had an irreplaceable spot on everything PvP related thanks in part to things like Portal? Have people not been whining enough?

I understand the sentiment that we feel that our beautiful game isn’t up to par just yet. We want it to become something better where everyone genuinely feels they aren’t limited in options just because of their class choice. It’s why many of us came here, over those other, more familiar, MMOs. I know I did. That’s why we are here, arguing about this very common topic. And I’m glad we are all doing it. These things need to be said and must continue to be argued. Every day, make a new thread on Thieves. Make the WvW forum a second Thief forum.

But it isn’t enough. Game devs need more than talking to see things straight. You guys need to act. I know some of you love your mains. That you are devoted to doing the best you can with what you chose. But sticking with your class is just a message that everything’s ok. “Hey…” Anet dev says; “things ain’t so bad”. “People are playing other classes in WvW and Thieves aren’t a problem in TPvP” (which we all know is so great and competitive an E-sport that it gets as many views as SC2, DOTA, and LoL).

If you think Thieves are OP, why do you think bending over and just whining on the forum is going to do anything about it? Prove to Anet what you’re saying. Give them all the data they’ll ever need. Show them a ruined WvW experience. Make it objective and tangible. Make Izzy regret taking anything but a third Thief or Mesmer in his havoc squad.

Abandon your class. Abandon it for the delicious fruits of an OP class. Show Anet what they are obviously missing. Gank noobs as a perma stealth Thief and use the /laugh emote. Troll groups by distracting them and wasting their time. Perma stealth near supply camps and flip them the moment it’s possible. Burn people’s opinion of the game into ashes. Make people hate WvW. Turn it into a joke. The more people do this, the more data Anet has. You guys have to make it so if someone steps outside their precious Zerg they get eaten alive by invisible monsters.

Can you imagine SC2, if one day Blizzard woke up, and found out that literally nobody played Zerg? Or if everyone just switched to one faction? What would happen? How valuable would their 50% winrates be then?

You gotta give these people more than QQ guys. Back when AvP2010 came out, it had some problems. Among the many problems it had, it had a huge balance problem. Predators destroyed everyone. You’d enter a match, and it’d be 10 Predators to 5 Aliens and 3 Marines. My favorite was Alien. I tried and tried, but it really wasn’t any fun.

The developers wouldn’t listen, either. The people who mained Predator, would stoutly defend the race. Me and my buddies just switched to Predator. We ruined endless matches. People would ragequit all the time, some of them going to community forums to whine. Eventually, the devs caved in. They didn’t have a choice, really, the game was ruined. People were leaving in droves. The devs made one last patch, but it didn’t do the things we suggested they did. It wasn’t enough. AvP2 came out in 2001 and lasted the community for almost 10 years. They had the tools to ban certain weapons from the server, to enforce race balance, mods, and things that kept the game alive. This game died in 2 months.

Continued

Actions speak louder than words. So, show Anet lots of action. Lots of perma-stealth action. Ruin a dev’s game a few times, and you’ll see some changes. You’re telling them about it, right now, but you have to show them what you’re saying, too. And, really, what could be more satisfying than giving Thieves their own medicine? Heck, maybe you’ll change your opinion on Thieves. Maybe you’ll realize they ain’t so bad, that it was just coincidence that you payed for more repairs on your other class. That’s a good result too.

Roll a Thief and start stabbing some backs. You won’t regret it.

TainoFuerte.8136:

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Continued

Actions speak louder than words. So, show Anet lots of action. Lots of perma-stealth action. Ruin a dev’s game a few times, and you’ll see some changes. You’re telling them about it, right now, but you have to show them what you’re saying, too. And, really, what could be more satisfying than giving Thieves their own medicine? Heck, maybe you’ll change your opinion on Thieves. Maybe you’ll realize they ain’t so bad, that it was just coincidence that you payed for more repairs on your other class. That’s a good result too.

Roll a Thief and start stabbing some backs. You won’t regret it.

Dear god yes everyone please quickly roll a thief… craft it to 80 asap. Feed my eng/guard/mes more bags. They have nice crystals and fortune cookies in them right now.

Phantom.8130:

i’d like to comment on this part here. the thief is an ambush class. what you described is an ambush situation. that’s exactly where a thief is supposed to have the advantage. if the ambush class didn’t have an advantage in ambush situation, while being at a disadvantage in most other situation (like the thief is currently), that class would be completely worthless. also, if a player is unaware that a thief is around, that has more to do with their own perception than anything else. even the d/p build leaves clues that the thief is around (the red ring from black powder, for example). someone who pays attention to their surroundings is actively protecting themselves against thieves. those who don’t are leaving themselves wide open to get ambushed by the ambush class.

As I said before, you may argue that “Thief is the assassin/ambush class”, but is it a good idea to have a game mechanic that people evidently don’t feel is fair when used against them? I don’t think so. People play games to have fun. Whatever takes away the fun from the activity should be reworked.

Yes, you may complain that you wouldn’t be able to have fun anymore ganking people who are unaware you’re there. That’s why I asked earlier whether thief players, with their own complaints about how sub-par the class is in other roles, are genuinely interested in balancing the class. Or do they simply play the class to troll others?

Grimwolf.7163:

Many classes are perfectly capable of sniping a person at 1500 range. Elementalists can also RtL Bomb someone out of nowhere.

Sigh. Another one.

As I said before, someone will have the initiative in a fight, but stealth (especially long duration stealth) ensures it. Why do you need such a crutch? Wouldn’t it be better if thieves are more versatile at the price of having to work just as hard as other classes to get the drop on someone? Or are most thief players so bad that they wouldn’t be able to win if they didn’t have the advantage of always getting the first hit in?

And in case anyone is mistaken (and the chances of that are very high here), my posts are not simply QQing about thieves. I don’t die very often to thieves. I just think that it would be better for everyone if the class is balanced for other roles besides stealth and burst. Yes, I or anyone could become PvP gods and kill multiple stealthed thieves trying to gank, but the problem cannot be reduced to l2p. The problem is that a lot of people don’t seem to find the current situation fun on either side, whether it’s the average player getting ganked by an invisible thief or a thief finding himself not being able to contribute as much as others in larger fights and dungeons. And the question to thief players is do you want to improve the game or do you just want to laugh as you troll less skilled players?

thieves call other class players L2P. Other classes call thieves Troll who has perma stealth, super mobility, burst dmg and are able to safely jump out the combat easily if they feel a bit pressure.
I play a mesmer in pvp/wvw (only PVP rank 31) . I enjoy and no big problem to duel a higher rank thief in spvp (there are winning and losing) but also get very frustrated to fight against a Troll thief.

I partied up with other pvp mates (around8 or 9, pvp rank 20-40ish including ele, necro and hammer warr) have met a couple of high pvp rank (both are with Bear finishers) thieves running in troll mode in wvw last week, and we were nailed one by one. We then invited them both of them into spvp and had good duels (winnings and losings, not only losing). Both thieves won our respects and they sincerely agreed a good skilled thief is almost un-touchable/killable if he decides to switch himself into the troll mode in wvw. they even said any one of them basically was able to slowly eat a mini zerg (15ish ppl pug) without any issue. they dont believe any other existing classes have such ability to get the same result (1v15+) with such ease at current stage. they both play and master all classes. they used to have hard time when fight against good condition mesmers but not any more.

Well, that’s the current situation.

@aelflune: Honestly the reason most thieves are the way they on the forums it’s a mexican stand off. Thieves don’t trust people that demand stealth nerfs, and I can’t blame them. The suggestions are almost always horrible suggestions that would completely ruin the builds that aren’t even complained about, or the entire class as a whole. Couple that with bunch of vocal players with strong senses of self entitlement, and zero desire to consider improving themselves; and a game community that generally frowns on thieves no matter where they are, Its quite understandable why most thief players on the forums are cynical, irritable and defensive.

If change is to happen, the can either down then up or up then down. Either way people will angry, and likely many won’t be pleased when it levels off.

The best those that want thief to be nerfed can do is put some time into understanding what makes thief tick and what makes them unique before making suggestion, and not complaining without a clear aim, or having assessed your own flaws.
The best thieves can do is try to be patient and openminded.

Renxian.6982:

Necro – High Sustain

nice troll

Comparisons where you make up disadvantages of your favored profession while conveniently ignoring disadvantages of the others are pretty good. If you think this criticism is wrong, I ask you to elaborate on how thieves have low/worse utility compared to e.g. nec and ranger or how their build diversity is low compared to other classes who also have 1-3 viable builds only (which should be the majority)

Ehem. a class should not be able to reset a fight till the other player makes a mistake or their Cool downs give out, I have a problem with nothing else, just increase the cool down on shadow refuge, I find it out outlandishly powerful for a non-elite and is more powerful the mesmer’s mass invis with a much longer stealth time, If the thief has any capacities to dodge and stealth it will survive logn enough for shadow refuge and just reset the fight from there. You could say “just aoe it” but not all classes have the ability to do even medium aoe damage with certain weapon sets and to expect certain classes to use certain weapons just so they can kill a thief when one pops up would be just stupid.

XxNoahxX.7813:

snip

If you bait them into over committing in the fight then you can down them regardless if they try to get away at that point or not. If they are JUST trying to run away mid way through the fight then whatever. There was no real threat to me at that point of the fight anyways. Sure you don’t get the loot bag, but who cares… they didn’t accomplish anything. Most classes can leave a fight mid way though if they are built for it. Mesmer is no exception to this. Phase retreat + blink + invulns + perma swiftness + cripples + dazes.

Thieves don’t really get the option of building for anything else. They NEED to constantly disengage and re-engage. That’s why a thief can’t do a lot of value in WvW outside of ganking yaks… and why I don’t play my thief in WvW much at all anymore. There are just so many more powerful and meaningful things you can do with other classes.

Kaamau.5341:

snip

Mass invis > SR by a mile and a half. You can keep moving while casting mass invis and don’t need to stay in a small area for a long period of time.

Weapons that have aoe and cc abilities are very useful outside of just being able to kill a thief. Mele weapons also work. Btw… my eng set up has no aoe weapon (P/P + Toolkit) and kills thieves like no tomorrow. I’ve used the tiny mele of the toolkit to kill many thieves who try to SR. If you chose no aoe and no mele… that’s on you at that point.

Good thief can not be killed in WvW unless they let themselves be killed, end of story.

I play a thief mainly and have made plenty of negative comments about the class in the past, but honestly, I now have to wonder if most of the people complaining just started playing. It’s nowhere near as bad as it use to be before culling was fixed, an extra second was added to reveal, and the change to blind has also been huge. Every class, even rangers, has the tools to deal with thieves. Probably still something to be said about the ease of escape with shadow refuge, but that’s also a two way street if you’re playing with a thief that uses it to help you escape or res.

Spend some time playing spvp as a thief to learn the basics of the class if it’s that much of a problem and you have no idea what to do when one is trying to solo gank you. It’s a much better proposition than laying over as a free kill or hoping anet will listen to your prayers to make a class completely useless.

A few tips, the area around “ruin island” between the two invader corners on the borderlands is almost always a free for all of gankers, small group combat, and tactical spawn camping. If that doesn’t interest you, don’t run around in that area like an idiot. If you’re running to join or rejoin a battle, and it seems like there’s a choke that might be a good spot for a smart group of players to harry reinforcements, be prepared…it’s not too hard to use your head and be ready for combat in likely situations.

zen.6091:

an extra second was added to reveal,

i don t lay thief but…wasn t it reverted following patch?
Its only pvp afaik

Yes, you’re right. I admit to not paying too much attention to it since I mostly play an s/d thief, and flanking strike not sucking has changed how I play quite a bit.

Still though, culling / rendering issues were the #1 problem with thieves, and that’s pretty much done for. I played more in the last week than I had in the past two months and did not see more than a few token d/d and d/p thieves patrolling the usual borderland areas, and most of them seem to believe in some sort of thieves honor system where they will move heaven and earth trying to gank another thief not interested in 1v1 before anyone else.

People also need to realize that thieves who sometimes roam and sometimes zerg or play with a guild group do actually have to spec quite a bit of additional vitality and some toughness to survive and do anything of use. And your use is pretty much limited to spamming blast finishers, cutting down stragglers, and scouting ahead. Scouting, skirmishing, and screwing with people can be fun, but it’s not like a god mode, super amazing, kill everyone class. Learning to play an ele or guardian is a far better investment of your time imo.

Xom.9264:

Good thief can not be killed in WvW unless they let themselves be killed, end of story.

Depends on the player. If a thief is just strafing, they are really hard to kill. However good players who want to fight will lock horns until the fight is over or more players show up. The same can be said for bunker D/D eles who are built for speed or some other bunker builds.

Many players simply don’t know how to counter thieves and run builds that aren’t very solo friendly. For example, standing in the red circle when fighting a D/P, push/pull when the hut comes up or setting a thief up for a shadow return death. A lazy thief going for cheap kills can be a hard class to kill but they won’t kill a decent player either.