Guild Wars 2

Mooodster.3470:

if this is pvp why am i using pve gear? why is there pve mods such as champs,skritt and numerous other mods running around..why is there havesting nobs..why is there crafting stations…could it be that it is a mix of pve and pvp?

if there is no progression then you should be fine with not having them on any of your alts…there are roles..there are those that like to master the siege usage..those that like to master the traits capping towers and camps easier and faster…those that like to master building and repairing and im sure anet will continue to add more so that roles will become more defined but just because your not willing to see them doesn’t mean they dont exist

It’s not pve gear, it’s just gear. sPvP is an isolated part of the game that it’s own set of gear, sPvP gear. The PvE aspects that exist in WvW are a side show, or part of a capture mechanic. The main attraction of WvW is the other teams, the PvP aspect of it.

You can call the abilities roles, but gaining ranks and unlocking better/more powerful abilities within that role is progression of said role. There are even two lines, two of most costly to progress at that, that actually increase your character stats. Many of the others directly increase the amount of damage you do with various siege equipment, which is not really much different than giving your character more power. It makes you stronger and more powerful than someone that doesn’t have that ability.

In another thread, concerning Bloodlust/outnumbered, a dev stated that they don’t want to give any stat boosts to Outnumbered because of potential griefing/harassment of additional players joining the map, and causing the buff (and the extra stats) to be removed. Is this really any worse than having players being told to not use a piece of siege because someone else has abilities unlocked for it?

Being harassed about joining the map and causing an Outnumbered stat buff to go away (a suggestion from the other thread) is bad? But being harassed for using siege on an alt is fine?

The former is a hypothetical reason/excuse to not alter the Outnumbered buff, the latter is an actual in-game reality that I have seen. I avoid using siege if I’m on a character that doesn’t have any related abilities unlocked, unless there is no one else around to man it. I don’t want to use it, when someone else can fire it farther, do more damage, or have useful skills available…this is something that should not be happening in game. Siege shouldn’t care who is using it especially if that’s an experienced player (with ability unlocks) that just happens to be on an alt.

One of the best things for lower leveled characters to do in WvW was man siege. The lower stats and weapon damage didn’t matter, aside from condition damage. Siege always had the same range, the same damage, and the same skills. These character based ranks take away the only thing a lower level character could do as well as a level 80. And now even after you are 80, you still have to earn ranks to unlock them. If they were account bound, it would at least give alts of players with higher WvW ranks the ability to have equal power on siege.

TooBz.3065:

The explanation is that they want each character to have a unique progression path.
It doesn’t make sense to me either, but that’s what they said.

The commander tag is because they want people to start to identify with good commanders. If you change from Commander XoraxLorax to Commander Fuzzybritches how will anyone know it’s you.

5 character parties is a holdover from dungeons. They did, at least, make squads.

Alternatively you could say the reasons are avarice, greed, and sloth (respectively). But, while I disagree with most of these decisions, I prefer to look at it more positively.

The draw back is their progression path sucks more than a two dollar who er well it sucks. Havent even bothered to finish the yawn quest they call a personal story on a single character.

mrstealth.6701:

In another thread, concerning Bloodlust/outnumbered, a dev stated that they don’t want to give any stat boosts to Outnumbered because of potential griefing/harassment of additional players joining the map, and causing the buff (and the extra stats) to be removed. Is this really any worse than having players being told to not use a piece of siege because someone else has abilities unlocked for it?

Of course not that is a laughable reason. Most of the time you would not even know who came to the map last. And its hardly worse than the snowball effect that will potentially happen.

timidobserver.7925:

They have already said that they have no intention of doing this. They would prefer to address the issue by making it easier to get ranks.

With Liquid World EXP!

Oh… but they drop once in a blue moon.

Way to go FailNet.

Make WEXP Account Bound or lose your player base. Your choose

The fact that a.net announces their intent does not give that intent merit. Regardless of what has been said, no reasonable argument can be mounted for keeping the WvW rank system character based. For obvious reasons, the system would be far better had it been account based. It’s just yet another bad decision by the WvW design team (if there even is such a thing) that we now have to live with.

At this point I fully believe it is impossible to ever get a.net to view WvW as anything other than a strictly casual format, even if the players themselves are competitive. It’s one thing to state that WvW is harder to balance as a format – which I would agree with – but quite another to intentionally ignore balance concerns for no better reason than “we can’t be bothered”. Claiming that WvW isn’t meant to be balanced is merely an attempt to reduce the concept of balance to terms of black and white. Balance, however, is shades of gray. It is still desirable to aim for as high a degree of balance as possible, even if the format has inherent shortcomings.

It’s obvious to players when game systems aren’t designed in a fairminded manner, simply because they’re the ones who endure the consequences. To create a system that actively discourages players from enjoying multiple aspects of the content offered by the game should be a huge red flag. WxP ranks simply weren’t thought through properly – and now they’ve painted themselves into a corner by announcing that they won’t reverse the decision, the reasoning being that it’s okay cause it’s only WvW anyway.

Poor decisions, poor excuses.

Hate to break your echo chamber but

ManaCraft.5630:

The fact that a.net announces their intent does not give that intent merit. Regardless of what has been said, no reasonable argument can be mounted for keeping the WvW rank system character based. For obvious reasons, the system would be far better had it been account based. It’s just yet another bad decision by the WvW design team (if there even is such a thing) that we now have to live with.

Since when does you not understanding their reasons = them having no reasonable argument?
The argument is very straightforward. If you spend even one more minute on your character, or preferably in-game at all, due to the WXP progression mechanic than you would otherwise, it’s being effective.
If you don’t stat brand new twinks as gimmicks with full trees (treb gimmick, AC gimmick, etc.) and cycle between them without a single thought spent on the actual points distribution, it’s being effective.
I know that that’s probably a much less sexy, individually appealing reason for the existence of this particular reward mechanism than usually expected, but so is reducing your carbon footprint for the environment.

Jamais vu.5284:

Since when does you not understanding their reasons = them having no reasonable argument?

Well… That’s what reasonable means. If you don’t have a solid, logical reason for doing something, that argument is not sound or reasonable. If your argument does not make sense, you’re either a poor communicator or just plain wrong. ANet’s argument does not make sense; they are either poor communicators or wrong. Considering they have a PR team dedicated to making their message as clear as possible, I think it’s far more likely that it’s the second.

The argument is very straightforward. If you spend even one more minute on your character, or preferably in-game at all, due to the WXP progression mechanic than you would otherwise, it’s being effective.

Is it actually doing that? Because I feel actively discouraged from playing WvW when I want to level an alt. That is a Bad Thing. If I want to WvW, I’m more likely to experience burnout on my main. That is a Bad Thing. I haven’t found any Good Things that aren’t directly negated by these Bad Things yet.

If you don’t stat brand new twinks as gimmicks with full trees (treb gimmick, AC gimmick, etc.) and cycle between them without a single thought spent on the actual points distribution, it’s being effective.

Maybe I’m just sleepy, but this didn’t make sense. I mean, is this addressing the shared vs unique trait spreads?… Because yeah, alts shouldn’t be able to get different trait spreads, I agree with you there.

I know that that’s probably a much less sexy, individually appealing reason for the existence of this particular reward mechanism than usually expected, but so is reducing your carbon footprint for the environment.

what’s wrong with you

Sarrs.4831:

Jamais vu.5284:

The argument is very straightforward. If you spend even one more minute on your character, or preferably in-game at all, due to the WXP progression mechanic than you would otherwise, it’s being effective.

Is it actually doing that? Because I feel actively discouraged from playing WvW when I want to level an alt. That is a Bad Thing. If I want to WvW, I’m more likely to experience burnout on my main. That is a Bad Thing. I haven’t found any Good Things that aren’t directly negated by these Bad Things yet.

This appears to be the effect it’s having on the people I know. Not wanting to play alts in wvw because of the character bound ranks. And playing the same character all the time just leads to boredom, which means playing the game less.

Mooodster.3470:

just because you dont like the reason does not mean that its not a valid reason…its character progression(notice character not account)

THIS

It is character progression.

Sarrs.4831:

Is it actually doing that? Because I feel actively discouraged from playing WvW when I want to level an alt. That is a Bad Thing. If I want to WvW, I’m more likely to experience burnout on my main. That is a Bad Thing.

These are the salient points that haven’t been addressed at all.

Monsoon.2589:

In this thread…a lot of people who feel entitled and want easy mode.
Wvw rank is character NOT account progression end of story, how hard is it to understand really?

Stawman, no-one wants ‘easy mode’.

Monsoon.2589:

Mooodster.3470:

just because you dont like the reason does not mean that its not a valid reason…its character progression(notice character not account)

THIS

It is character progression.

Already answered, the system as implemented is a poor levelling system which doesn’t enhance role playing at all.

Also its been said in previous threads on this but WvW is mainly PvP. You are playing as yourself. Your character is largely just a playstyle not an opportunity to progress a character like in PvE.

Jamais vu.5284:

Hate to break your echo chamber but

Since when does you not understanding their reasons = them having no reasonable argument?
The argument is very straightforward. If you spend even one more minute on your character, or preferably in-game at all, due to the WXP progression mechanic than you would otherwise, it’s being effective.

Feel free to break away. ;-)

That being said, unless you can tell me something I haven’t heard already, I doubt you’ll win me over with the idea that I haven’t understood their argument. Rather, I would say it is the case that I simply do not find it compelling.

In response to what you said, however, since there is no (direct) monetary incentive for a.net to keep me logged on to the game, I fail to see what there is to be gained. And even if you grant that the goal of simply keeping players logged on in and of itself has merit in a non-subscription based game, it’s a short-term solution at best, as the forced lack of diversity will, over time, cause me to play the game less.

And that, of course, is assuming that the player is primarily motivated by rewards (and will therefore stay logged on longer to get them, as you claim). There’s some truth to that, but it depends on the type of player, and I would argue that a PvP-based format is precisely where that argument is least likely to hold – especially when we’re talking about a reward that has no use outside of that format.

Jamais vu.5284:

If you don’t stat brand new twinks as gimmicks with full trees (treb gimmick, AC gimmick, etc.) and cycle between them without a single thought spent on the actual points distribution, it’s being effective.

I’m sorry, but this part of your argument made no sense at all. Care to rephrase/elaborate?

Omaris Mortuus Est.2738:

They should have been account bound from the start. Character bound means people will play one class the most, so they’ll get bored faster and leave the game faster.

Anet really need to focus on fixing and improving WvW if they want those players to stay. They’ve probably already driven off 40% of WvW players by ignoring our complaints and suggestions for over a year now!

WvW population is almost at the same height as game launch and growing.
Source . State where you got your “40%” and then continue.

Apart from that: character progression was requested multiple times and we got it. I highly dislike the idea of having account levels as this invalidates my characters progression and make the characters just some tool to level accounts.

In DAoC we had character progression with RvR ranks and points. Did it discourage players from creating alts? Probanbly not. Where people who sticked to one character favoured? Yes and thats how many people liked it. You could still compete with people who played a lot (and thus had more points to spend on stats/abilities) if you sticked to one character.

My suggestions, however, would be: At least tripple the amount if WXP earned from player kills and double that amount again if you are defending a structure like a camp/keep/tower. Might not be the best reward to encourage defending, but if you manage to kill a bunch of attackers while defending, you will earn a lot of points (rightfully so).

Monsoon.2589:

In this thread…a lot of people who feel entitled and want easy mode.
Wvw rank is character NOT account progression end of story, how hard is it to understand really?

Wait.. talking about easy mode. What do you think a zerg in T1 is? There is no skill involved when running with a 50 man map zerg. But you get tons of wxp, while a main part of the ppt work is done with scouting and havoc which doesn’t reward you as much (or at all).
The map zergs are cheap world xp trains – nothing less.

Class bound wxp completely penalises playing support and is a really crappy move for game health. The people forced into support because none else will do it, will burn out and leave, which will impact wvw heavily when those roles are increasingly empty.

Class bound wxp will help sell wxp boosters, unfortunately that is ’ killing the golden goose’ stupidity for the long term.

Monsoon.2589:

I do not play for the ranks but for the fun of wvw and it also does not mean I play less or don t play my alts…on the contrary

I don’t play for ranks either, but the game is trying to enforce that idea in some attempt to make us play more/longer. The issue isn’t the ranks, it’s the abilities tied to those ranks. My alts are less effective, so there is active discouragement to use them. They do less damage with siege, have less range with seige, are missing skills on siege, can carry less supply, don’t get supply refunds on use, can’t build as fast, can’t repair as fast, have lower HP, have lower power/condition damage, take more damage from siege, do less damage to guards, take more damage from guards…did I miss anything?

This isn’t an “easy mode”, because character based ranks are not a “hard mode”. It’s just a completely unnecessary grind for power. It’s about wanting more than a single character to viably have their maximum potential. Having that potential stuck behind ranks that take thousands of hours to acquire is not making that viable, it’s discouraging the use of alts. As someone that doesn’t have a “main” or “alts”, it’s flat-out devastating to my desire to play the game. Being disadvantaged just because you enjoy playing multiple professions is the problem here.

One of the core principles of GW2 (not just WvW) was not having to take thousands of hours to gain the maximum power/potential for a character, yet WvW abilities do just that.

None will leave game if wxp is made account wide, many will leave much sooner if wxp is kept as grind power class based.

Liete.5263:

In DAoC we had character progression with RvR ranks and points. Did it discourage players from creating alts? Probanbly not. Where people who sticked to one character favoured? Yes and thats how many people liked it. You could still compete with people who played a lot (and thus had more points to spend on stats/abilities) if you sticked to one character.

Yes, yes it did. Plenty of players complained about this mainly because class and build changes came and went. Players would pour a lot of time into their class/build only to see a patch a few months down the road make them want to play something else but be faced with the daunting task of starting completely over. Giving up R8+ would be tough.

Also, older MMOs are not a particularly good guide on how to do things well. Remember harsh death penalties? How about travel time sinks that practically every MMO thought was important so players didn’t level too fast?

It’s a badly designed system. People with one character don’t care if it’s acc bound or not. And people with alts strongly believe it should be acc bound.

The variety of playing different alts is the reason a lot of us are still playing. Discouraging it is one more step for ANet to actively kill their own game.

Straegen.2938:

Liete.5263:

In DAoC we had character progression with RvR ranks and points. Did it discourage players from creating alts? Probanbly not. Where people who sticked to one character favoured? Yes and thats how many people liked it. You could still compete with people who played a lot (and thus had more points to spend on stats/abilities) if you sticked to one character.

Yes, yes it did. Plenty of players complained about this mainly because class and build changes came and went. Players would pour a lot of time into their class/build only to see a patch a few months down the road make them want to play something else but be faced with the daunting task of starting completely over. Giving up R8+ would be tough.

Also, older MMOs are not a particularly good guide on how to do things well. Remember harsh death penalties? How about travel time sinks that practically every MMO thought was important so players didn’t level too fast?

By far the best RvR advancement system I have seen is in Planetside 2.

All points are accumulated account wide, and then can be spent per character.

Also, many abilities overlap between characters. So if a particular gun is shared, and if you unlock it on one, it is unlocked on all.

It really seems to strike a fine balance between viability of different loadouts, and individual character advancement.

Thrumdi.9216:

By far the best RvR advancement system I have seen is in Planetside 2.

All points are accumulated account wide, and then can be spent per character.

Also, many abilities overlap between characters. So if a particular gun is shared, and if you unlock it on one, it is unlocked on all.

It really seems to strike a fine balance between viability of different loadouts, and individual character advancement.

I hope anet are aware of this.