Guild Wars 2

kanikani.2430:

There is also the possibility of dynamic population changes. What about this, if you are in a Q for WvW you get sent to some other server (not in your current match) to fight it out while you wait for the Q to pop. This would add some bodies to other servers, even if just for a short time, it might also promote transfers to smaller servers from big ones. Say your always in a Q on your server, and you try one out in this way and you actually like the community for the time your there, you may be interested in going there perm. Just an idea.

I like that Idea, however that would entitled a whole redesign of WvW to make it work. On another note though what you are advocating is a WvW system that works similar to hot join sPvP. The way WvW currently works its based on server achievement not individual achievement. So this wouldn’t work unless there was som kinda mercenary system.

Now a mercenary system would be great. A menu that pops up and lists servers that need the most help at the current time of any given match up you are rewarded for helping them. To prevent exploiting you would be given a quest that contained objectives. Like take X amount of camps, towers and keeps. Only then once that is complete you would receive some kinda daily type reward that had a chance for a ascended ring or something.

Again to do anything like this stuff would require significant redesigns. But I like the idea of a mercenary system that only works like break out events when servers need help.

I like the idea of a mercenary system as well. Great idea Warlord. Daily rewards and such would be incentive but not overpowered. It would also let people try out other servers. It would be nice to have a guild based thing for this as well or guild based achievements/rewards.

As far as major redesign, if you kept it to Q’s and kept it to dealing with servers that are not currently fighting each other I don’t see tons of room for exploits.

kanikani.2430:

Oreo.1503:

I don’t think rebalancing population would work, the obvious reason is that if for example all tier 8 servers suddenly became overpopulated at the same time, they still wouldn’t move up, because they would only be rated in relation to each other and not to the others, and adding population and than removing tiers would just result in wvw oriented servers destroying pve oriented servers who would never get to enjoy wvw, which is the situation we want to avoid with a ranking system.

I don’t think you understand what balancing the population means. It would mean at a given time you would have 50 on each server fighting each other (or whatever numbers). And the ranking system promotes stagnation and should be removed as a whole, except for bragging rights purposes. At least as far as match ups are concerned. If every server had similar populations at similar times the fights would be relatively equal across all severs.

Isn’t that what we all want, relatively equal and fun fights that vary from time to time to keep us from getting bored? If numbers = win, then if we all have the same numbers then what? Skill = win? Isn’t that what we want?

Imagine playing chess where one side starts with 5 pieces and the other starts with 50. Isn’t that kind of dumb?

1st, there is already a cap, I’m on a tier 1 server and I get queued. And YOU don’t get it, fixing population DOESN’T address the issue of tier movement and DOESN’T make every server “equal”. The WvW servers will still crush the unorganised PvE servers, which is what rankings are there for.

@Oreo

Yes but when we are talking about large numbers like GW2 you will get groups of noobs and groups of hardcores on all servers. So yes if you grabbed 50 people in lions arch some will be great some will not be so.

50 v 50 would be much better then the current system of 5 v 50 or do you think that it is working well now? At this point teamwork, strategy, skill, have very little to do with how WvW is played, I would love to see that be so. And the player cap is only needed for the first couple tiers otherwise most servers never see it (yes there is a world outside tier 1).

The thing you dont and a few other seem to get is if you fix population, you no longer need tiers. You can jumble up matches all the time. The only way to change tier stagnation is to have more servers be on equal grounds, I think that is done by population fixing. Did you read my whole post about removing tiers and random matches?

And if one server gets creamed by some fantastic guild on one server it randomly changes next week, not the end of the world. But I have played WvW since beta, and I have seen great things from ALL servers. Great ideas, great skill, to think that T1 has a monopoly on that is just silly. If some of the T8 servers had the kind of populations of T1 they would be up there just the same. And if the T1 servers lost numbers they would fall quickly.

kanikani.2430:

@Oreo

Yes but when we are talking about large numbers like GW2 you will get groups of noobs and groups of hardcores on all servers. So yes if you grabbed 50 people in lions arch some will be great some will not be so.

50 v 50 would be much better then the current system of 5 v 50 or do you think that it is working well now? At this point teamwork, strategy, skill, have very little to do with how WvW is played, I would love to see that be so. And the player cap is only needed for the first couple tiers otherwise most servers never see it (yes there is a world outside tier 1).

The thing you dont and a few other seem to get is if you fix population, you no longer need tiers. You can jumble up matches all the time. The only way to change tier stagnation is to have more servers be on equal grounds, I think that is done by population fixing. Did you read my whole post about removing tiers and random matches?

And if one server gets creamed by some fantastic guild on one server it randomly changes next week, not the end of the world. But I have played WvW since beta, and I have seen great things from ALL servers. Great ideas, great skill, to think that T1 has a monopoly on that is just silly. If some of the T8 servers had the kind of populations of T1 they would be up there just the same. And if the T1 servers lost numbers they would fall quickly.

Well I don’t think that’s exactly the point of the thread, what I say is that changes to how many people play doesn’t fix the ranking system. What you are talking about is removing the ranking system, and I do not believe it would work. The reason I say this is because the whole point of the ranking is so that people don’t get bored kitten too much , and the reality is that the worst/best servers will be the losers in this, yes you, on your middle of the road server may get an more balanced game next week, but what about the best/worst servers, they will go from boring game into more boring game where they are either unchallenged or utterly destroyed. Also I do not believe the fact that it is 50 actually changes anything. Have you played WoW ? There is a battleground called alteract valley it’s 40vs40, and even in PUGs, with 40 random guys vs 40 random guys, the reality is, its 24/7 of one side farming the other, just because of the superior player pool, and it’s not fun.

As for playing on WvW of other servers, than that wouldn’t be much of a WvW anymore, thats would be just wow style battlegrounds, which is nice, but on its own, not really as a replacement.

DivineBeing.2086:

It seems a lot of what people are suggesting wouldn’t fix the original problem of fighting the same few servers for the last few months, despite the fact that your server has consistently been 1st every weeek!

Suggestions such as: Balance the WvW population. Ok, so it makes the match more even. This may flip some server rankings around now, but when the rankings settle again down the road we will be stuck with the same exact problem! Why? A server such as TC could be stuck in this zone, where they don’t belong in tier 3 but yet their rating doesn’t increase enough to tier 2, so the winning server just continues to crush the other two servers, week after week. Btw, not saying this is TC’s situation, just an example.

Just requoting to try to crush this whole “balance WvW population fixes all problems” nonsense.

Balancing WvW populations would only even out the number of players on the field. As stated in my quote, sure this may flip some rankings around at first, but after the dust settles, we will be back in the exact same problem we are in now!. Just because WvW populations would be evenly distributed doesn’t mean matches will start fluctuating.

So balancing WvW populations = very VERY bad band aid fix.

The root problem: Winning servers for each tier keep dominating that tier. The winning server begins to get bored of the match so they go with the whole “play enough to just beat the other two servers”, which completely goes against the Glicko rating system. Glicko rating system = performance of the server, not if they win or lose.

If a group of players (server) wins week after week after week thinking if they just keep on winning than eventually they will hit tier 2, than they will put in just enough effort to make them win the match!

WvW populations does absolute nothing to fix this problem!

I dont play WoW but I have been playing games for 25 years. There is no WvW server, we are all PvE servers with a very small percentage of WvW’s. And the numbers involved are not 40v40 its 165v165v165 (or close to) 24 hours a day for one week. This is a three way that is an important part. There is no guild or server so good that they would dominate all servers 24 hours a day 7 days a week. You would need an entire server to have 500 people on basically 24 hours a day 7 days a week that are all extremely skilled and extremely well coordinated and communicate extremely well, this does not happen anywhere in WvW as it currently stands, and would be even less so if they broke up the population.

I would much rather play a tough opponent sometimes and get squashed (we can learn from these losings) then to play the same opponents for the next several years. As it stands now all servers will pretty much stay in their tiers forever and I do not see people keep playing the game this way. That is the point of this thread complaining about having to play the same servers every week, and it is a real WvW problem. It becomes predictable, stale, and boring. If the point of the ranking system is to prevent boredom, why is everyone complaining and getting bored? To me that states that it is not working.

That is why they have added breakout events to try and balance unequal populations of servers. When one is getting dominated NPC’s will make up for some of that population gap.

And just a note on PUG’s for all you WvW elitist. I have seen a PUG 2v7 or 7v15 and win. Just because you are not affiliated with some BS guild (that would be a great guild name ) doesn’t mean you do not know how to play or what you are doing. Conversely, some of the biggest guilds show some of the worst decision choices regularly.

You overestimate your servers ability and you underestimate the lower tiers.

As for playing on other servers per my idea before (or warlords). I dont know about you but I would much rather play around on another server while waiting then sitting around LA for a few hours in a Q.

DivineBeing.2086:

WvW populations does absolute nothing to fix this problem!

Yes it does because you can remove ranking systems as they are now, simple as that.

If rankings are not working then get rid of them or change them, simple as that. So how do we do that?

It wont be 165v165v165 if you make it 50v50v50, which is what I was referring to. What I was explaining is that even if you make it 50v50v50, one of those 50 will dominate the others because their 50, will be better because some servers just have a highly dedicated player base for WvW that will be simply better, and I was pointing to WoW because 40v40 isnt so far from 50v50v50, and 40v40 even with random people wasnt balanced, not even close because they do not draw their people from the same player pool, some severs have a very dedicated hardcore pvper base while some don’t.

And again, may be fun if you are a middle of the road server, but the weaker servers will suffer from this.

The only way to fix the system, is to fix the system ! removing it won’t actually fix anything, because that system was put in place to prevent other problems that will come back to bite you.

And really what you want is a 50v50v50 instanced cross-server battleground ppl queue up for… what I say is, great, but that’s not WvW, thats a wow battleground.

As for you reply to divine, divine is right, what you propose as a solution is to remove rankings, the pop cap is just a fix of the problem caused by your solution, which is that we need something to ensure people get fair games. What I argue here with proof from other games is that even with even numbers, servers with a bigger hardcore pvp communauty will still dominate and the balance issue caused from removing the ranking system will not be fixed by changing the player cap. And again, ranking isn’t about the middle of the road server, it’s about the top/bottom servers so they can get good matchups.

This is basically a whole overhaul for a problem that could be fixed simply by a small tweak to the rating system so it actually promotes movement across tiers.

Actually I dont want instanced or cross server battlegrounds. What I would like is to see larger servers an insentives to transfer down and smaller servers consolidated. I would love if the servers kept their own feel and personality that will not be achieve in cross server battlegrounds. And I want to see more variety in matches it is really boring as the OP put it. And I do not want the size to shrink to 50 at all, it was a arbitrary number in my post before.

I want the game to stay exactly like it is, just with more people on each server so it is a game of skill vs a game of numbers. And I would like some variety in who I play against. As well as variety of maps/rewards and so on. I am not alone in this.

What is your solution to not having tiers stick this way forever? What will make people not get “Tired of Fighting the Same Servers”?

Neither of DivineBeing solutions or Oreo solutions are decent because it basically takes the same thing but adds a one or two servers more as opponents (from higher or lower tiers). That is not enough for variety long term (say years). So instead of playing 2 or 3 opponents forever, I get 4 or 5. Wow big variety, that is a game changer.

kanikani.2430:

Actually I dont want instanced or cross server battlegrounds. What I would like is to see larger servers an insentives to transfer down and smaller servers consolidated. I would love if the servers kept their own feel and personality that will not be achieve in cross server battlegrounds. And I want to see more variety in matches it is really boring as the OP put it. And I do not want the size to shrink to 50 at all, it was a arbitrary number in my post before.

I want the game to stay exactly like it is, just with more people on each server so it is a game of skill vs a game of numbers. And I would like some variety in who I play against. As well as variety of maps/rewards and so on. I am not alone in this.

What is your solution to not having tiers stick this way forever? What will make people not get “Tired of Fighting the Same Servers”?

Neither of DivineBeing solutions or Oreo solutions are decent because it basically takes the same thing but adds a one or two servers more as opponents (from higher or lower tiers). That is not enough for variety long term (say years). So instead of playing 2 or 3 opponents forever, I get 4 or 5. Wow big variety, that is a game changer.

yeah, well that’s not a problem with the way wvw works its a problem with anet management, there just arent enough people playing and free transfer means people who are sick of their server just switch to a winning server instead of trying harder to make their losing server win. And really there aren’t enough highly active servers to really have much more rotation than that without making it even worse for many dying servers. Sucks :/

Hey, whatever system puts CD in a red borderland next week, sign me up.

kanikani.2430:

What is your solution to not having tiers stick this way forever? What will make people not get “Tired of Fighting the Same Servers”?

Neither of DivineBeing solutions or Oreo solutions are decent because it basically takes the same thing but adds a one or two servers more as opponents (from higher or lower tiers). That is not enough for variety long term (say years). So instead of playing 2 or 3 opponents forever, I get 4 or 5. Wow big variety, that is a game changer.

But one of my solutions DOES fix this problem.

If #1 server in tier 3 that has won 3x consectutive times in a row and the #3 server in tier 2 has lost 3x consecutive times in a row than they swap. What does this in fact do?

For clarity and readibility sakes let’s name these servers that just swapped:

- Server A = Tier 3 server that just went to tier 2.
- Server B = Tier 2 server that just dropped to tier 3.

Ok, so Server A now has a morale boost! Why? They want to prove that they are, in fact, worthy of tier 2. So they rally like never before. Let’s say Server A completely dominates tier 2, there rating jumps substantially right? Well, the other two servers in tier 2 probably have a high enough rating that they won’t be dropping to tier 3 anytime soon. But wait? What if, server B also completely dominates tier 3? Their rating may go above 3rd place tier 2, which will cause Server B to return to tier 2! Now, what if server B dominates tier 3 but cannot achieve a high enough rating? Well, they will swap with tier 2’s 3rd place server after 3x consectutive wins/losses!

You take the above scenario and sweep it across all tiers, you get A LOT of different potential match ups.

See the solution is: Server Morale! By allowing the server who has won 3x+ consectutively in a tier a chance in the above rank, it gives the servers population something to strive for! New opponents to out strategizes.

Btw, my scenario example is just that ONE example. There are multiple different scenarios that can pan out which can really get the rankings fluctuating!

How about keeping things the way they are but, the last week of each month is a completely random match? The points from this “Match Up Week” do not count toward the tier system either. It’s a fun week with some rewards for each placing. This way we’d all get to fight each other eventually. Also, incentive to get as many in there as possible.

Warlord.9074:

kanikani.2430:

There is also the possibility of dynamic population changes. What about this, if you are in a Q for WvW you get sent to some other server (not in your current match) to fight it out while you wait for the Q to pop. This would add some bodies to other servers, even if just for a short time, it might also promote transfers to smaller servers from big ones. Say your always in a Q on your server, and you try one out in this way and you actually like the community for the time your there, you may be interested in going there perm. Just an idea.

I like that Idea, however that would entitled a whole redesign of WvW to make it work. On another note though what you are advocating is a WvW system that works similar to hot join sPvP. The way WvW currently works its based on server achievement not individual achievement. So this wouldn’t work unless there was som kinda mercenary system.

Now a mercenary system would be great. A menu that pops up and lists servers that need the most help at the current time of any given match up you are rewarded for helping them. To prevent exploiting you would be given a quest that contained objectives. Like take X amount of camps, towers and keeps. Only then once that is complete you would receive some kinda daily type reward that had a chance for a ascended ring or something.

Again to do anything like this stuff would require significant redesigns. But I like the idea of a mercenary system that only works like break out events when servers need help.

yes,yes and yes to the mercenary system!im sure our guild would love to help other servers out that are currently being slammed by others!i would love to do that

OH GOD YES. PLEASE. Change up the lineups. Do you know how demoralizing it is to be in a constant losing match 5 weeks running?

Well… there’s good news for TC.

Looks like you guys will be taking us at SoR aswell as BG on next week, and IOJ will be dropping down to tier 3. Should change things up slightly for all parties involved.

Good luck in Tier 2 TC.

Revamp WvWvW:
With the current ranking and setup, almost the same 3 servers will see each other on the same map (duplicate 3 times) plus EB every week and it is getting old really fast.
A lot of complaints about 2 vs 1, not much of rewards for T1 servers, boring duplicated maps, low population for lower tier, etc.

Few ideas that will work well with each other:
1. revamp the map to 1 giant new map. (with 1 vs 1, it should be less burden on servers)

2. consolidate/merge servers.

3. There will be WvW (head to head competition, not WvWvW.) The rule is simple like any live tournament. First week, all servers put into RNG and randomly draw (example: blue fights blue, red fights red, magenta fights magenta.) Second weeks, all won servers put into RNG for random pick and same goes with all lost servers. Third weeks, we should have 4 tiers at this time, RNG and continue. This will continue until the last two top servers settled for 1st and 2nd place of the season. After that, All server put back into RNG and starting weeks 1 again. With this system, every server will have a chance to face different server instead of seeing the same old server for at least 3, 4 weeks in the row or maybe forever.

The rewards for 1st and 2nd place can be buffs: 1st place = +30% chance of receive badge of honor, +50% more gold. 2nd place = +15% chance of receiving badge of honor, +30% more gold or something interesting enough to motivate every servers to try harder. These buff will last for a week and only apply while they are in WvW. With good rewards, every servers will push harder to get it. Therefore, it is promoting WvW to a different level.
(These only works well with 2 servers against each other for the fairness)

4. More gears/weapons skin in WvW vendors as rewards of trading badge of honor.
Happy Holidays!

I think the plan was to find an equilibrium from the beginning and stay there. Its an excellent system.

Just in case some of you still think the ranking system works well, look at Devonas rest.
They were in T8 for the past 3 months or so, and have been dominant for at leat 2 months. Kain and FC have played well enough that they couldn’t move up until last week, where Fkittenerally gave them the amount of points needed to move up. Now look at DR in T7. It’s not even close. DR is literally going from the bottom of T7 to the bottom of T6 in one week.
But you’re thinking it’s all fixed right? DR is finally moving like they should? nope not yet.
Now we have KN and FC stuck in T8 beating up on the previously T7 server and likely neither of them will go up (where they belong) for another month at least. Sure it may work out eventually… in a year after the populations have shifted and the real ranks are different again.

this thread should be in the suggestions section of the forum, maybe that will get dev’s attention.