Guild Wars 2

Squashed the forum bug

X T D.6458:

I will never understand why anyone thought it was good idea to let players go invisible in a competitive gamemode…

Anet seems to like it as they kept on adding stealth upon stealth in this game.

could say the same about all of the automatic and or passive buff/defences too, i thought this was a game to play, not the game playing it for you.

Fat Disgrace.4275:

could say the same about all of the automatic and or passive buff/defences too, i thought this was a game to play, not the game playing it for you.

This gets me more than anything.

“The revenant is open – I’ll punish him with some CC!” → Autotaunt → CoR + Surge = Dead.

“Just baited the warrior’s Endure Pain – Time to hit him hard and finish him off!” → Defy Pain/Dead or Alive → Taunt → Dead

“The mesmer just burned F4, BF, and blocks – CC and punish!” → Mirror proc

“Let’s fight that ranger” → Auto-weakness

“Gonna get the jump on that DH and he won’t know what hit him” → FoF

“…Guess I’ll just burst down the necro” → LG/US

How interactive. There are more, but this just generally sums up how the game feels at the moment.

Camping stealth should be punished or simply not possible, but complaining that the mechanic itself is OP (especially the thief lol) rather than the surrounding mechanics that are definitely game-breaking seems a tad foolish when stealth played by any non-abusive build can be beaten (and beaten badly) just by playing well.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Baldrick.8967:

JahCool.3812:

Baldrick.8967:

JahCool.3812:

It’s also like this. Because of all the power creep classes in HoT almost all of them can melt a thief in a few seconds. Stealth and dodges are your most important tools to prevent melting of course every thief will use those tools every chance they get. Do not expect them to just stand there and give you easy kills. Example is this. If you are a revenant are you not gonna spam sword 2 every chance you get? If you take away stealth for thieves then let just anet delete the class. As if all the nerfs they got isnt enough. And i bet anet is actually believing all this QQ about thieves being OP cause of guys who cant, once again, l2p against thieves

I’d have no problem if they just deleted the thiefs as a class. It’s a very badly implemented class with zero penalty whilst in stealth and zero penalty for reveal. If ‘stealth’ actually meant you had to sneak around to not be detected then great. And the classic thief response of ‘wave your weapon around and hope to contact’ whilst they await cooldowns and pop back out at full HP to have another go with their macro whilst your defences are all still on cooldown or you’re still regaining HP from the last macro having blown your main heal on the 15k damage from the first one…

Personally I find thiefs annoying just because they can pop in and out of stealth at will, plus dodge like it’s going out of fashion when you can see them, whilst moving around like a pinball.

Not many can kill me unless they bring friends (which they usually do) or get really lucky on their first macro when I’m not paying attention as i tend to run quite tanky support builds in wvw, but the whole stealth mechanic plays wrong for me. There should be a penalty in the form of slower movement speed so stealth= sneak or be noticed.

Omg. I hope you’re just trolling bro. Cause if you’re not then you’re hopeless. Good luck. May Dwayna bless you.

Not hopeless, if you read my post you’ll see they don’t cause me much of an issue on their own against my non-solo builds.

It’s just in an ideal world I’d remove the class or totally rework the cheese oops I mean stealth mechanic to have benefits AND costs.

Seeing how they don’t have any actual sustain that’s a big cost for having stealth and being designed around it as well as having dump over 2/3 of their Initiative to even get into 3 seconds of stealth, while other classes that have more than enough sustain get stealth almost as easily, like Mesmer, Druid and Engie. Also if the Thief is out of combat more than likely you are out of combat as well so there is that.

It just sounds like you need to l2p against thieves. Want to know what’s cheesier than stealth? Passive defenses that carry a lot of the classes ingame currently.

He only cheesy stealth build currently is the ghost thief it shouldn’t exist but it does and if you die to that it really is a l2p unless it’s two or three of them.

It’s kind of funny actually. DDs have a great, short cd block/stun break, teleports out the wazzu, medium armor, top notch mobility, multiple near perma evade builds, stealth for days, a passive invuln, solid condi clear available, a solid low cd heal/evade. Their only major drawbacks are low base hp and lousy stab access. Maybe a shortage on some boons.

The sustain issue is mostly a matter of build. Everyone wants to run nuclear dps (which is fun) but every once in awhile I’ll mix some PVT with marauders and a couple knight trinkets. It’s near unkillable even in heavy aoe and hits hard…will even break bunkers. Even marauders, scrapper runes and dmg reduc food will make a thief stupid tanky.

People argue meta meta meta whatever but that’s mostly going to be pvp/gvg or organized zvz. What matters in wvw small scale is what you want to kill and what you want to run from.

To be clear, I think thief is mostly fine atm (condi, trapper and perma evade could prob use a look). Could be some other stuff I suppose

I have no problem dealing with thieves either, don’t even use some cheese duelist build either just regular WvW builds. Guess that’s why they abuse the broken stealth mechanic to reset fights constantly and call is “resilience”. Just not made for WvW really.. just trolling..

Condi mesmsers are more of a pain when using some of these “play themselves” rune sets and builds. But I guess baddies prefer thieves since its easier to run away and reset with no penalty.

To the poster a few above, I do know how to play against thieves- unless there are two or three of them plus a mes and a necro or an engi and they just permanently make each other disappear then burst on recharge without you being able to see them.

It’s not a L2P issue- I just don’t like the mechanic of stealth in this game (or any class) as it has no penalty.

I don’t really have a problem dealing with anything one to one on my support ele, I just ignore them for the most part whilst making my way to the nearest safety as staff ele isn’t a good build to fight against solo builds on (unless I change my build entirely).

This post was not about thieves… so please stop being offended at the slightest thing. This post was about stealth… DH (via runes), Ranger (via lb and runes and Smokeskale blast), Engineer (blast and pots), Mesmers (Esp Chronophantasm with its 12 clones, 6 sec evade and dodges, target loss). This post is not about being kitten or response to game play, it is entirely about Stealth as a game mechanic and it abuse and exploitable pattern by even the most mundane user with a NAGA or macro mouse. Troll another post but if you can;t help yourself at least stay on topic and stop being petty.

non stop stealth is a problem in this game, but thief can’t get the stealth nerfed as the vanilla class would be destroyed.

Instead i suggest to give all the classes to be able to build to counter stealth effectively. Same as the players do for mobility, if you take the choice to build against stealth there should be the option for every one.

Caius.8094:

This post was not about thieves… so please stop being offended at the slightest thing. This post was about stealth… DH (via runes), Ranger (via lb and runes and Smokeskale blast), Engineer (blast and pots), Mesmers (Esp Chronophantasm with its 12 clones, 6 sec evade and dodges, target loss). This post is not about being kitten or response to game play, it is entirely about Stealth as a game mechanic and it abuse and exploitable pattern by even the most mundane user with a NAGA or macro mouse. Troll another post but if you can;t help yourself at least stay on topic and stop being petty.

I think most of these kinds of remarks are responding to the ones which are quite literally calling the thief or stealth as a mechanic overpowered.

Even still, stealth isn’t OP. Other defensive abilities used with stealth are what is ridiculous – AKA what most other professions like the scrapper and druid are benefiting from.

I agree with what some people are stating in here for the most part, and thats coming from someone who abuses stealth on both ranger and thief. Sadly. on both theses classes its really the only way to combat the majority of opponents currently is to leverage your stealth access. With all the immunities and aimless aoe spam as single target classes you have to abuse these or you melt.

In the same note I can see how frustrating it can be to fight people that just reset the fight endlessly when things don’t go their way with stealth. It’s smart tactical play from their end but there is very little counter play other then unskilled taunt traits sucking people in. Another thing that can be frustrating is the type of people that refuse to engage unless they “bomb” an individual from stealth as group (maguma does this a lot). That also offers little to no counter play.

For the most part I have little to no problems with thief or ranger stealth access because I understand how people would play them and get how to counter them. However, I do not like how engineer or mesmer interact with stealth sometimes.

I feel the game would be a whole lot healthier if stealth on every skill except shadow refuge could not stack longer than 3 seconds and leaving stealth in any format applied reveal. However that’s just my opinion. Which is worth a grain of salt.

You will feel that way until you play all classes and have a better understanding of how they work and how to counter them. Right now stealth is pretty balanced. Way better than it was before.

We have had, at any one time , separate topics claiming stealth as OP, Dodges on a thief as OP, and overall mobility as OP. Were this in fact the case in any iteration the thief would dominate at all levels of gameplay from PvP to Pve and WvW. given the very real ability of the thief to do raw damage and the fact that Thief has excellent access to all three of these.

This most certainly not the case meaning that these claims can not all be correct or that what has been offered others in the way of abilities is in fact more powerful yet.

In other words it simply not possible to discuss any one aspect of the game on its own be it stealth , mobility , damage, the number of blocks , invulnerabilities or passives on their own. They have to be all looked at holistically as any tinkering with one of these things will always affect one profession much more than another.

Caius.8094:

Other than players that use the ANET design, am I the only player that thinks attacking while stealth’d and staying stealth’d is stupid? GW2 is the only MMO where someone can attack from stealth, go back to stealth or stay in it due to kitten poor programing and exploits… do the dev’s even know this.. do they even play anymore?

Its the way anet appears to want stealth to work, my inference is they want to do something different to other games and stubbornly refuse to acknowledge that their version of stealth is arguably the worst in any online game on the market.

morrolan.9608:

Caius.8094:

Other than players that use the ANET design, am I the only player that thinks attacking while stealth’d and staying stealth’d is stupid? GW2 is the only MMO where someone can attack from stealth, go back to stealth or stay in it due to kitten poor programing and exploits… do the dev’s even know this.. do they even play anymore?

Its the way anet appears to want stealth to work, my inference is they want to do something different to other games and stubbornly refuse to acknowledge that their version of stealth is arguably the worst in any online game on the market.

Couldnt disagree more, stealth in this game is not some stupid 60 second cooldown that makes you walk slower out of combat, you have to sacrifice resources to even use it, that 6 seconds of stealth can cost a thief all of his initiative, initiative that could have been used for attacking instead, if you dodge or block the backstab the thief just used all of his resources for nothing.

For other classes stealth is easier, just fire and forget cooldowns, but they still have to sacrifice a utility slot or burn cooldowns on combo fields.

(On an unrelated note how do you manage to die vs a trap thief, do you stand still and wait out the condi stacks???)

Martyr.1920:

morrolan.9608:

Caius.8094:

Other than players that use the ANET design, am I the only player that thinks attacking while stealth’d and staying stealth’d is stupid? GW2 is the only MMO where someone can attack from stealth, go back to stealth or stay in it due to kitten poor programing and exploits… do the dev’s even know this.. do they even play anymore?

Its the way anet appears to want stealth to work, my inference is they want to do something different to other games and stubbornly refuse to acknowledge that their version of stealth is arguably the worst in any online game on the market.

Couldnt disagree more, stealth in this game is not some stupid 60 second cooldown that makes you walk slower out of combat, you have to sacrifice resources to even use it, that 6 seconds of stealth can cost a thief all of his initiative, initiative that could have been used for attacking instead, if you dodge or block the backstab the thief just used all of his resources for nothing.

For other classes stealth is easier, just fire and forget cooldowns, but they still have to sacrifice a utility slot or burn cooldowns on combo fields.

All that means is as I said they are trying to do something different. It doesn’t work.

DeceiverX.8361:

Fat Disgrace.4275:

could say the same about all of the automatic and or passive buff/defences too, i thought this was a game to play, not the game playing it for you.

This gets me more than anything.

“The revenant is open – I’ll punish him with some CC!” -> Autotaunt -> CoR + Surge = Dead.

“Just baited the warrior’s Endure Pain – Time to hit him hard and finish him off!” -> Defy Pain/Dead or Alive -> Taunt -> Dead

“The mesmer just burned F4, BF, and blocks – CC and punish!” -> Mirror proc

“Let’s fight that ranger” -> Auto-weakness

“Gonna get the jump on that DH and he won’t know what hit him” -> FoF

“…Guess I’ll just burst down the necro” -> LG/US

How interactive. There are more, but this just generally sums up how the game feels at the moment.

Camping stealth should be punished or simply not possible, but complaining that the mechanic itself is OP (especially the thief lol) rather than the surrounding mechanics that are definitely game-breaking seems a tad foolish when stealth played by any non-abusive build can be beaten (and beaten badly) just by playing well.

Some of those are definitely not as bad as you’re making out, Rev and DH I find the worst though as they not only have the anti CC (Rev gets it on 75% of the CD as everyone else wtf?) but also have a lot of stab and plenty of blocks, invulns or semi invuln states so as to be for all intents and purposes immune. A lot of that comes while dealing damage too which is straight up bad.

Ranger Druid certainly doesn’t need auto weakness when they have protect me, Druidic Clarity, Celestial Shadow, Ancestral grace, sword and dagger evades and the extra weakness sources they can have. However core ranger would need that trait so as to not die to a stealth gank.

That’s really the problem, when a class (either mesmer or thief) can jump you for between 10-16k while using a daze/stun to force you into a stunbreak you do need some form of auto protection from that initial attack. Especially when those classes can port 3000-5000 range in a few seconds and escape with ease.

However with stealth camping in it’s current state or should I say stealth ganking, I can’t honestly say every single one of these should be removed. It would be ideal for a lot of them to be more active but not while stealth is in it’s current form and that is to be untargetable, unseen (removing counterplay deliberately put into skills via long cast) and with no penalty for extended duration for ganking.

Honestly it would be nice if everything was toned down and scaled back so fights took a little longer naturally instead of taking longer because the vulnerable windows are so short and far between. A single auto proc trait isn’t a big deal to me and can be healthy but not lots of them while also having excellent mobility, extended blocks/invulns, evades and doing damage while doing them

anduriell.6280:

i suggest to give all the classes to be able to build to counter stealth effectively.

That’s no good because damage from stealth is often enough to swing the coming fight entirely in the thief’s favour before it even begins.

Same as the players do for mobility, if you take the choice to build against stealth there should be the option for every one.

What?

It’s called getting better at the game and stop blaming stuff on the opements.

Stealth players are not an issue for me. I’m an old woman and kill them all the time, but I play all classes and usually know what they are trying to pull off. Its the groups of three running a stealth train and using one to sucker you in. Its a very clever strategy. But it comes at a price of crushing those who like to roam instead of blob up. In the end it hurts game play.

apharma.3741:

DeceiverX.8361:

Fat Disgrace.4275:

could say the same about all of the automatic and or passive buff/defences too, i thought this was a game to play, not the game playing it for you.

This gets me more than anything.

“The revenant is open – I’ll punish him with some CC!” -> Autotaunt -> CoR + Surge = Dead.

“Just baited the warrior’s Endure Pain – Time to hit him hard and finish him off!” -> Defy Pain/Dead or Alive -> Taunt -> Dead

“The mesmer just burned F4, BF, and blocks – CC and punish!” -> Mirror proc

“Let’s fight that ranger” -> Auto-weakness

“Gonna get the jump on that DH and he won’t know what hit him” -> FoF

“…Guess I’ll just burst down the necro” -> LG/US

How interactive. There are more, but this just generally sums up how the game feels at the moment.

Camping stealth should be punished or simply not possible, but complaining that the mechanic itself is OP (especially the thief lol) rather than the surrounding mechanics that are definitely game-breaking seems a tad foolish when stealth played by any non-abusive build can be beaten (and beaten badly) just by playing well.

Some of those are definitely not as bad as you’re making out, Rev and DH I find the worst though as they not only have the anti CC (Rev gets it on 75% of the CD as everyone else wtf?) but also have a lot of stab and plenty of blocks, invulns or semi invuln states so as to be for all intents and purposes immune. A lot of that comes while dealing damage too which is straight up bad.

Ranger Druid certainly doesn’t need auto weakness when they have protect me, Druidic Clarity, Celestial Shadow, Ancestral grace, sword and dagger evades and the extra weakness sources they can have. However core ranger would need that trait so as to not die to a stealth gank.

That’s really the problem, when a class (either mesmer or thief) can jump you for between 10-16k while using a daze/stun to force you into a stunbreak you do need some form of auto protection from that initial attack. Especially when those classes can port 3000-5000 range in a few seconds and escape with ease.

However with stealth camping in it’s current state or should I say stealth ganking, I can’t honestly say every single one of these should be removed. It would be ideal for a lot of them to be more active but not while stealth is in it’s current form and that is to be untargetable, unseen (removing counterplay deliberately put into skills via long cast) and with no penalty for extended duration for ganking.

Honestly it would be nice if everything was toned down and scaled back so fights took a little longer naturally instead of taking longer because the vulnerable windows are so short and far between. A single auto proc trait isn’t a big deal to me and can be healthy but not lots of them while also having excellent mobility, extended blocks/invulns, evades and doing damage while doing them

In the case of druid, do not forget about Bark Skin (minor) and Shared Anguish (the only good major), also applicable to core ranger since these are both in WS. Saying ranger is susceptible to burst is imho a pretty poor argument since their already-amazing trait line allows for such low-investment passive CC negation and 50% damage reduction on an opening hit or two. I find myself on my full berserker ranger almost always escaping being bursted, and quite honestly, only dying to thieves when being stuck to by Shadow Shot spam, because I don’t run staff or HoT pets to enable a disengage. And that’s a problem I’ve been arguing over religiously for years :P

I played a glass cannon no/low-stealth D/D thief for the better half of four years and won most of the times I got jumped by other thieves. Not to say stealth camping ganks are fair and fun, but the impact passives have (particularly against the more fair builds) on the game is pretty tremendous and quite honestly, just as frustrating, and in all seriousness, the need to react quickly in this game is under-valued. The fact my opponent can be perfectly capable of seeing me, not playing well enough to actually notice me, and then be unpunished for being taken by surprise from behind is quite silly.

As I said, permanent stealth shouldn’t be possible anywhere, as good awareness should let you be able to see any incoming opponents from a far distance, even if they might be able to close that gap very quickly. OOC stealth is imho poor design in general on pretty much anything that can inflict burst damage. Get rid of the possibility of ganks which don’t have counterplay, and the need for passives drops immensely. But it only becomes fair when both of these things happen.

As mentioned, though, it’s not stealth itself that’s necessarily the strong mechanic but stealth paired with things like burst damage, mobility, sustain, etc. that makes it seem so strong.

Fat Disgrace.4275:

well thats odd. very rarely do i see acro and dd in wvw. 90% of the thives i come across consist’s of shadow arts or deadly arts or sometimes CS line. but they always run DD and trickery.

Your eyes might expect to see a certain type of thief and you might not register many who are right there where you don’t think they should be, The air time I keep up with s/d to avoid terrain lockups probably makes me look like an s/d ranger and I’m usually where a heavy should be. A proper roaming or floating thief will have gone into stealth a couple of times for resets or to contain a double team where I’m likely to not stealth at all unless to bug out once the blob shows up.

To what Jeknar mentioned about dodges, I’ve built deep into that for a feedback loop and I can’t have sustainable stealth on top of that. A stealth thief who might actually open up on you hard enough to matter might not even have Daredevil spec, our tier has a healthy amount of core thieves running around.

Svarty.8019:

anduriell.6280:

i suggest to give all the classes to be able to build to counter stealth effectively.

That’s no good because damage from stealth is often enough to swing the coming fight entirely in the thief’s favour before it even begins.

Same as the players do for mobility, if you take the choice to build against stealth there should be the option for every one.

What?

i can only say if you die from the first burst from a thief you certainly deserve to stay dead. What do you do? just eat it all with salsa? Do you stay on top of a trap thief just to be killed by condis?

Crits and how they ignore armor stat should be also addressed but this thread is about stealth i think….

anduriell.6280:

Svarty.8019:

anduriell.6280:

i suggest to give all the classes to be able to build to counter stealth effectively.

That’s no good because damage from stealth is often enough to swing the coming fight entirely in the thief’s favour before it even begins.

Same as the players do for mobility, if you take the choice to build against stealth there should be the option for every one.

What?

i can only say if you die from the first burst from a thief you certainly deserve to stay dead. What do you do? just eat it all with salsa? Do you stay on top of a trap thief just to be killed by condis?

Crits and how they ignore armor stat should be also addressed but this thread is about stealth i think….

Crits don’t ignore armor…..

I couldnt be bothered to read all of this defending of stealth. No class should be able to do damage while in perma stealth and thats it, stop complaining of how thief would be bad etc etc coz best thiefs i know dont run that broken build. It does not require skill (if any of u thiefs think ur that good) its a simple matter of a "legal"exploit.

Mikhael.2391:

I couldnt be bothered to read all of this defending of stealth. No class should be able to do damage while in perma stealth and thats it, stop complaining of how thief would be bad etc etc coz best thiefs i know dont run that broken build. It does not require skill (if any of u thiefs think ur that good) its a simple matter of a "legal"exploit.

This post wasn’t about perma stealth Thieves sorry you couldn’t actually read the post.

Mikhael.2391:

I couldnt be bothered to read all of this defending of stealth. No class should be able to do damage while in perma stealth and thats it, stop complaining of how thief would be bad etc etc coz best thiefs i know dont run that broken build. It does not require skill (if any of u thiefs think ur that good) its a simple matter of a "legal"exploit.

You do realize that thieves cannot deal damage while in stealth and that the only build which can do so is a build (D/P condi trapper) which most people here already are calling cheesy, right?

Again, my argument: Stealth isn’t the problem. It’s other things used in tandem with stealth access that are, I.E. damage, durability, mobility, boons, sustain, etc.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Mikhael.2391:

I couldnt be bothered to read all of this defending of stealth. No class should be able to do damage while in perma stealth and thats it, stop complaining of how thief would be bad etc etc coz best thiefs i know dont run that broken build. It does not require skill (if any of u thiefs think ur that good) its a simple matter of a "legal"exploit.

This post wasn’t about perma stealth Thieves sorry you couldn’t actually read the post.

I read the first comments where being killed by a perma stealth thief/dd was mentioned and is stealth related. That cheesy condi build as previously talked is allowed due to ANET not caring about it. Same goes for druid cheese build but that is off topic. What i see being the worst of this stealth issue is the fact that it cant be countered by most classes. If im playing DH bring it on, if im on necro oh s…

There is a little bit of l2p indeed, I myself started to play thief just to learn the mechanics of the class.

My opinion, thief is extremely easy to play for roamers, you only die if you dare too much otherwise it is so easy to run away that I find it boring… for 1v1 it is not exactly so easy, a very good thief can kill anyone but he must have some skill with the class, any noobie can survive a 1v1 fight but beating any class specially bunkers and condition builds is another story.

I do not like the stealth mechanics of gw2, it is differente from any other MMO and I do give my gratz for the idea to try innovate stealth, but hiding while in combat is hard to balance. I prefer stealth to move around and for suprise first strike, so it could last longer but should not be available after combat begins, thief could have other defenseive mechanics like dogdes or any kind of passive evasion.

The same goes for any other class with stealth.

albotelho.2931:

a very good thief can kill anyone but he must have some skill with the class,

Nope, sorry.
I can kill classes who don’t have that excessive sustain and passives, other than that I’m out = I can kill all vanilla specs, some reapers, some revs/heralds for whatever reason and a daredevil if he’s bad.
Given same skill level no thief/daredevil stands a chance in 80% of 1 vs 1. And even if the skill level of the opponent is a lot lower there’s a very good chance he will win.

ETA: A while ago I said to my buddy: Those who are still playing this game are no lifers like me and facerollers – and unfortunately that’s very likely true: I hope they got a proper balance team and I hope these guys will ignore the forums for the most part.

Daredevil is extremely easy to play. I’d actually say meta Daredevil is probably the easiest build to play in the entire game at the moment.

Core thief is a whole other story.

I’ve played MMORPGs for years and all of them have had stealth abilities in classes. But, none of them, for balance purposes, have allowed stealth abilities to persist while attacking — other than in this game. That is most perplexing to me. It is what it is.

However, one can’t say there is no counter to a stealthed foe attacking you if you have some kind of reflect.

I would love it that if in balancing stealth the developers could make the mechanics of reflect increase in dmg against stealthed attacks. That would create somewhat more skill and strategy in using the capability of attacking while stealthed and increases balance and counterplay for classes incapable of targeting a stealthed foe.

And, maybe they already do that for all I know. If you use attack skills while in stealth, you know reflect damage will increase 40% roughly. So, choose wisely how you play your stealthed class.

A lot of games with stealth allow it to be gained during combat, though. Even games like BnS and League, both.

GW2 doesn’t allow people to keep attacking while staying in stealth. Only the condi trapper build and PU mesmer, but again, this isn’t a problem with stealth itself but mechanics being used that simply don’t interact with it, and the effective exploitation of condition damage access on non-damaging abilities.

DeceiverX.8361:

Daredevil is extremely easy to play. I’d actually say meta Daredevil is probably the easiest build to play in the entire game at the moment.

Core thief is a whole other story.

True, but even daredevil can’t cut through all the blocks, passive blocks, boons and sometimes ridiculous sustain.

Jana.6831:

DeceiverX.8361:

Daredevil is extremely easy to play. I’d actually say meta Daredevil is probably the easiest build to play in the entire game at the moment.

Core thief is a whole other story.

True, but even daredevil can’t cut through all the blocks, passive blocks, boons and sometimes ridiculous sustain.

It still doesn’t justify any of it, nor take the fire from those saying stealth as it currently is trivializes a lot in combat on daredevil – because it absolutely does, and they’re not wrong for saying there’s a ton of reward for next to no opportunity cost.

You’ll never not see the daredevil played, unless ANet massively power-creeps their next elites every time they come up with a new one, or massively nerfs daredevil and buffs core thief and nerfs half of the rest of what was released in HoT.

DeceiverX.8361:

It still doesn’t justify any of it, nor take the fire from those saying stealth as it currently is trivializes a lot in combat on daredevil – because it absolutely does, and they’re not wrong for saying there’s a ton of reward for next to no opportunity cost.

You’ll never not see the daredevil played, unless ANet massively power-creeps their next elites every time they come up with a new one, or massively nerfs daredevil and buffs core thief and nerfs half of the rest of what was released in HoT.

Is stealth not more a problem of D/P than of DrD?
D/P has got too much access to stealth, rune of the trapper should be removed, all classes should be somehow tied to stealth or thief unbound and if that’s not possible reveal skills should be removed.
DrD is insane when looking at core thief, yes. Anet brought themselves into a very difficult situation with HoT.
I recently created a free account and could play happily ever after, especially if the elites aren’t in some form required. Another problem is: They took away the game a lot of people loved.
It might have worked out as planned if they had a proper balance team before june 2015 and created a line all sets can use. I’m curious how they’ll get out of it actually.

ETA: This is another problem anet face. It’s not just the core players who still haven’t got HoT, it’s also the free players – and I’d have to say that they are very generous with free accounts.

It’s an OH pistol problem when it comes to permanency, but also one perpetuated via Daredevil. Leap finisher on Bound still puts DrD into a situation where it’s almost always advantageous for literally half of the weapon combinations, even if not running Dash, which is the better of the two.

And Dash itself enables even poor play for the thief in general when it comes to getting stealth. Dash allows for thieves who get caught via immobs etc – inherent counterplay to stealth – to simply escape unharmed without needing to cleanse. Basically, the amount of skill required to play semi-competently plummeted hugely and the number of available aggressive counters to deal with the thief dropped tremendously.

ANet didn’t think things through. They’ve now got a hugely rewarding mechanic that once had very definitive counterplay in a situation that seemingly doesn’t have that much. I still don’t find it particularly oppressive, but that’s also because I’ve got years of experience on thief. Still, I find myself often shaking my head when playing against Daredevils because I know I out-played them, was in a position which would execute any core thief, and was simply unable to solely because of the elite spec. There are respectable and good players I’ve dueled who even admit their wins have come solely from this difference.

The fact is, stealth isn’t really punishable with the daredevil. It’s not that stealth is OP, but again, the surrounding mechanics used in tandem with it are what make it more infuriating than anything to play against.

Jana.6831:

DeceiverX.8361:

It still doesn’t justify any of it, nor take the fire from those saying stealth as it currently is trivializes a lot in combat on daredevil – because it absolutely does, and they’re not wrong for saying there’s a ton of reward for next to no opportunity cost.

You’ll never not see the daredevil played, unless ANet massively power-creeps their next elites every time they come up with a new one, or massively nerfs daredevil and buffs core thief and nerfs half of the rest of what was released in HoT.

Is stealth not more a problem of D/P than of DrD?
D/P has got too much access to stealth, rune of the trapper should be removed, all classes should be somehow tied to stealth or thief unbound and if that’s not possible reveal skills should be removed.
DrD is insane when looking at core thief, yes. Anet brought themselves into a very difficult situation with HoT.
I recently created a free account and could play happily ever after, especially if the elites aren’t in some form required. Another problem is: They took away the game a lot of people loved.
It might have worked out as planned if they had a proper balance team before june 2015 and created a line all sets can use. I’m curious how they’ll get out of it actually.

ETA: And btw I’m not opposed to buying my free account. It would be cool to have some help against stalkers though as I’m deperately trying to get rid of mine.
But you see this is another problem anet face. It’s not just the core players who still haven’t got HoT, it’s also the free players – and I’d have to say that they are very generous with free accounts.

They shouldn’t tie stealth to anymore classes, that would cause more problems than anything, Thief was designed at a conceptual level to rely on stealth as a defensive mechanic, when they started giving more stealth to classes that do not require it but can abuse it causes issues like Scrapper and Druid who do not lack in sustain or damage mitigation to warrant getting as much stealth as they do.

And you can’t remove Stealth from being tied to Thief since it is built into the very core of Thief.

Now they do need to address how Stealth does interact with conditions, and with Stealth Stacking.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Now they do need to address how Stealth does interact with conditions, and with Stealth Stacking.

The first one is simple, don’t allow conditions to affect an enemies while you are in stealth or an invuln state.

The second one anet’s hinted at, and wouldn’t be surprised to see if they force all skills to jump their full range rather than the camera being able to reduce it. Simply put the majority of theifs would only be able to get 2 stacks of stealth.

The first is more than likely not going to happen the second probably will tho.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

They shouldn’t tie stealth to anymore classes, that would cause more problems than anything, Thief was designed at a conceptual level to rely on stealth as a defensive mechanic, when they started giving more stealth to classes that do not require it but can abuse it causes issues like Scrapper and Druid who do not lack in sustain or damage mitigation to warrant getting as much stealth as they do.

And you can’t remove Stealth from being tied to Thief since it is built into the very core of Thief.

Now they do need to address how Stealth does interact with conditions, and with Stealth Stacking.

No other class has got a gigantic red circle around them when stealthing, they have one motion, that’s it. They don’t have the crippling shadow attack cooldown, they don’t have their heal, condi remove, burst, damage migation and so on tied to stealth. They don’t need stealth, whether or not they’re revealed doesn’t bother them = In that case reveal skills are ok, not so in case of thief. So either they tie more classes to stealth, or they remove reveal skills – as how it is now it’s a huge passive nerf to thief and that’s not ok. The issue is just overshadowed by the state of the game in general.

And they certainly don’t need to adress how condis and stealth work together, that’s a problem of D/P and Rune of the Trapper – they don’t need to nerf core thief just that everybody can carry on using that stupid rune that was brought into game obviously untested.

Superior rune of the trapper in no way shape or form is OP. It provides 2 seconds of stealth and superspeed . Thats it. The lowest trap cooldown traited is 24 seconds.

2 seconds stealth/speed every 24 is not OP.

DP stealth stacking is the issue with people able to get 4 of those up. THAT is what gives the permanent stealth.

Ghost thief is better off using things like Perplexity runes wherein they can stack 11 stacks of confusion from stealth with relative ease all while remaining stealthed. Runes of the trapper can not do that.

With Runes of Perplexity you can add another 3 stacks confusion on top of that of struck while stealthed.

You can not play a Ghost thief without d/p.
You do not have to have Trapper runes to play a ghost thief.

Ergo. trapper runes are not the issue.

Address stealth stacking with DP and your ghost thief no longer an issue. Remove trapper runes and you can still have a ghost thief.

Ergo . trapper runes are not the issue.

Those that continue to insist that Rune of the trapper the reason for Ghost Thief are not familiar with the build at all. They can work in that build but they are not crucial to the build.

Eval.2371:

The first one is simple, don’t allow conditions to affect an enemies while you are in stealth or an invuln state.

The second one anet’s hinted at, and wouldn’t be surprised to see if they force all skills to jump their full range rather than the camera being able to reduce it. Simply put the majority of theifs would only be able to get 2 stacks of stealth.

The first is more than likely not going to happen the second probably will tho.

Without action camera and with full leaps, I as D/P noob, can leap through smoke field 4 times. It’s not a camera issue. Not sure if action camera really lets people leap through it more often as initiative is a limiting factor. Those using action camera might be able to leap through it 5 times.

The problem here is that there’s no thief dev and that they let the combat aspect of this game detoriate for too long, it will be a lot of effort to fix that. If we had a thief dev none of the latest “nerf thief” cries would’ve worked – just saying: they’re losing more and more players because they’re listening to what people with serious L2P issues have to say.

Jana.6831:

Eval.2371:

The first one is simple, don’t allow conditions to affect an enemies while you are in stealth or an invuln state.

The second one anet’s hinted at, and wouldn’t be surprised to see if they force all skills to jump their full range rather than the camera being able to reduce it. Simply put the majority of theifs would only be able to get 2 stacks of stealth.

The first is more than likely not going to happen the second probably will tho.

Without action camera and with full leaps, I as D/P noob, can leap through smoke field 4 times. It’s not a camera issue. Not sure if action camera really lets people leap through it more often as initiative is a limiting factor. Those using action camera might be able to leap through it 5 times.

The problem here is that there’s no thief dev and that they let the combat aspect of this game detoriate for too long, it will be a lot of effort to fix that. If we had a thief dev none of the latest “nerf thief” cries would’ve worked – just saying: they’re losing more and more players because they’re listening to what people with serious L2P issues have to say.

Action camer isn’t what allows the HS stack it you can’t use Action camera to stack stealth 4 times with HS it’s how the camera manipulation allows the normal camera to shorten the HS distance to not leave the Bp field. It has been known as an exploit without the manipulation the most you can stack without it is 2 maybe three times but more time than not it is 2 max which is only 4-5 seconds of useable stealth, if they fix the camera exploit it will help with the abuse of stealth.

Eval.2371:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Now they do need to address how Stealth does interact with conditions, and with Stealth Stacking.

The first one is simple, don’t allow conditions to affect an enemies while you are in stealth or an invuln state.

The second one anet’s hinted at, and wouldn’t be surprised to see if they force all skills to jump their full range rather than the camera being able to reduce it. Simply put the majority of theifs would only be able to get 2 stacks of stealth.

The first is more than likely not going to happen the second probably will tho.

your first suggestion a bad idea and poor game design. It simply puts all the advantages of Condition builds into classes that do not require stealth to survive. Why on earth would I want a P/d condition thief if everytime I stealth to get off my sneak attack , I loose all damage from conditions already applied? If I immob or cripple a guy then stealth for an attack he is freed from my Immob, crippled goes away? If I try to cleanse conditions on myself using SE my damage stops? You are basically giving that enemy player resistance just because you stealth.

That makes no sense. Simply put the entire traitline becomes useless to a Condition thief and CS is already there. That just ruins CORE thief more. It would mean the only viable condition build for a thief d/d deathblossom.

They should just rework thief completely.
/2copper

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Action camer isn’t what allows the HS stack it you can’t use Action camera to stack stealth 4 times with HS it’s how the camera manipulation allows the normal camera to shorten the HS distance to not leave the Bp field. It has been known as an exploit without the manipulation the most you can stack without it is 2 maybe three times but more time than not it is 2 max which is only 4-5 seconds of useable stealth, if they fix the camera exploit it will help with the abuse of stealth.

Having a hard time to understand what you’re trying to tell me “it’s not action camera, it’s action camera”
I just told you that I can leap through the field 4 times? And more isn’t possible anyway, except if using initative gain traits.
So what is the exploit?

Jana.6831:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Action camer isn’t what allows the HS stack it you can’t use Action camera to stack stealth 4 times with HS it’s how the camera manipulation allows the normal camera to shorten the HS distance to not leave the Bp field. It has been known as an exploit without the manipulation the most you can stack without it is 2 maybe three times but more time than not it is 2 max which is only 4-5 seconds of useable stealth, if they fix the camera exploit it will help with the abuse of stealth.

Having a hard time to understand what you’re trying to tell me “it’s not action camera, it’s action camera”
I just told you that I can leap through the field 4 times? And more isn’t possible anyway, except if using initative gain traits.
So what is the exploit?

I said it’s not the action camera it’s the camera, you know the actual base camera, it is not possible to do the exploit with action camera but with the normal camera it is

Can’t say it any more plainly.

Alright, but the camera has always been around and I told you that even with full leaps it’s possible to stack 4 times – so I have no idea what’s an exploit and what should be fixed if everything is already working like intended.

That’s weird as I’m really an absolut noob when it comes to D/P.

ETA: Aren’t you using trickery?

BlaqueFyre.5678:

You can shorten it and still have some travel from HS if you didn’t rotate camera fast enough and still get 4 stacks but again that’s not the full HS length and is most often what happens when inexperienced players try to emulate the exploit.

Lol – alright then – have a nice day.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Yes I use Trickery, it’s not an issue of not having the Initiative it’s the actual time of the BP smoke field won’t last the length of 4 full distance HS.

Then try to noob down so it works for you.