Guild Wars 2

Having played games such as DAoC and WAR, I am used to a culture where groups and guilds dont add on each other if the fights seem even. This has been an unspoken rule amongst guilds that most if not all have agreed on. Same goes for killing groups smaller than yours / roamers.

However in GW2 it is rare to see this behavior from guilds. I wonder if its because we play on NA servers and NA dont have the same history in previous mmos, or its a general thing for GW2?

Its not a rant about other servers, cause guilds on my own server ( Blackgate ) is just as bad at doing this as others are. I am just wondering why people do this, and hopefully a discussion about this can lead to, what imo would be a better WvW enviroment.

I’ll be the first to go I guess. If I see a group fighting close to even we’ll usually not interrupt if we don’t have any issues with the guild/guilds involved but if say one side had done something I may camp/focus them even in an even numbered fight just to send a message.

Smokee.1754:

Having played games such as DAoC and WAR, I am used to a culture where groups and guilds dont add on each other if the fights seem even. This has been an unspoken rule amongst guilds that most if not all have agreed on. Same goes for killing groups smaller than yours / roamers.

However in GW2 it is rare to see this behavior from guilds. I wonder if its because we play on NA servers and NA dont have the same history in previous mmos, or its a general thing for GW2?

Its not a rant about other servers, cause guilds on my own server ( Blackgate ) is just as bad at doing this as others are. I am just wondering why people do this, and hopefully a discussion about this can lead to, what imo would be a better WvW enviroment.

It’s good as it sound but very hard to do in practice. First, you dont know whether they need help or not. Second, when you wonder that far in the map and happen to find red spots, you surely get a jump on them especially jump on lesser numbers of enemies. Human’s nature.

People like winning. Some of them (Not us) even used two organized guilds (or 3!) to hunt on one guild in a single map lol. And the term “hunt” means they didnt even want to take our keep, they (both guilds) just look out for us (one guild) only for blood with superior numbers.

Really couldn’t agree more.
It’s quite simple, if you don’t want to be thought of as a guild who is simply desperate for any form of lackluster victories they can get their hands on, please be respectful of both your enemies and servermates when out fighting.

Depends on the guilds..some really go out their way with 25 guys to hunt down a loner.Honestly if you just De-tour because you see a single guy running and you feel the need to steamroll him with 25 guys….Un-Install.

Hmmm given that the windmill, or behind it away from the camp is the dueling area anyone outside that is pretty free game. I make sure if im dueling on my mesmer to go out behind the windmill far away from everyone so we dont get interruptions.

And its easyto do, just join their group or invite them to your own and ask if they would care for a duel.

And no this doesnt count if you are taking the close by camp or killing people in it and then run to the duel area when u get attacked thinking you will be safe lol. Thats a sure fire way to get everyone in the duel area rolled by said 25man.

This was also the pretty common GvG area as it is nicely out of the way.

I too played DAoC but more just 8man and on Classic, really had a good amount of respect between the 8 man groups, ahh thems were the days lol.

On Maguuma, double engaging is seen as pretty rude, unless it’s obviously an extremely outnumbered fight or they’re wiping/already wiped.

I don’t think is something that really happens in normal WvW, and I believe that in T1, doing those ‘scrims’ and asking people not to jump in is pretty wrong.

People chose t1 for the constant fights and always having numbers to fight against. Doing those scrims causes problems for atleast 1 Server.

For example. Sever A is fighting Server B inbetween garrison and Bay, Server A and B are both the invader server, Server C sees these swords and pushes on Sever A’s bay. This starts off a double team straight away, simply because the server saw swords in that area.

OR

The fights are happening at the windmill ( better spot ) It shows people are down there, and you are going to pull part of the map down. We know there are queues in T1, so pulling ~20-25 ppl to basically, be useless to the map. Affects everyone else on your server, and it lets the server without ppl involved gain advantage.

Your best bet is do to it in Obsidian Sanctum or even Eotm. Doing it in the BL’s can get annoying

Medeyn.8562:

I don’t think is something that really happens in normal WvW, and I believe that in T1, doing those ‘scrims’ and asking people not to jump in is pretty wrong.

People chose t1 for the constant fights and always having numbers to fight against. Doing those scrims causes problems for atleast 1 Server.

For example. Sever A is fighting Server B inbetween garrison and Bay, Server A and B are both the invader server, Server C sees these swords and pushes on Sever A’s bay. This starts off a double team straight away, simply because the server saw swords in that area.

OR

The fights are happening at the windmill ( better spot ) It shows people are down there, and you are going to pull part of the map down. We know there are queues in T1, so pulling ~20-25 ppl to basically, be useless to the map. Affects everyone else on your server, and it lets the server without ppl involved gain advantage.

Your best bet is do to it in Obsidian Sanctum or even Eotm. Doing it in the BL’s can get annoying

Okay let’s put this in PPT words so you can understand,

A full map force wouldn’t go and take one camp would they? Then why have multiple forces attack one enemy force. Think of the fighting guilds as a distraction for the other enemy forces and a opportunity for you to take that distraction to capture your points.

Also like you stated most fighting guilds run around 20-25 people on a map. If they’re fighting equal sized enemy force then that server also has 20-25 people. So there is no disadvantage by having fighting guilds on a map.

Most guilds who play for the fights also know that taking or attacking a tower/keep will bring fights to them. They may not do it for the tick and the ppt but none the less they are still capturing points and helping their server.

Fighting guilds will always be on whatever BL so instead of complaining about it use them to your advantage and stop being disrespectful to the way they play the game.

All is fair in love and war.

Eternal Battlegrounds ~ Warzone. Red = dead.

Caedmon.6798:

Honestly if you just De-tour because you see a single guy running and you feel the need to steamroll him with 25 guys….Un-Install.

Red is dead.

Killing a solo roamer or small group when you’re in a large group?
Of course you have to do it. So what if they don’t stand a chance? If you don’t kill them maybe they’ll take a tower 3 minutes later. Maybe they’re bringing supply to another group. Maybe they’re scouting. Every single enemy you kill is a tactical advantage.

If you want to play fair, just go play chess or something.

LMAO this thread and smokee still being alive

Zanshin.5379:

Caedmon.6798:

Honestly if you just De-tour because you see a single guy running and you feel the need to steamroll him with 25 guys….Un-Install.

Red is dead.

Killing a solo roamer or small group when you’re in a large group?
Of course you have to do it. So what if they don’t stand a chance? If you don’t kill them maybe they’ll take a tower 3 minutes later. Maybe they’re bringing supply to another group. Maybe they’re scouting. Every single enemy you kill is a tactical advantage.

If you want to play fair, just go play chess or something.

^
Exactly.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

Zanshin.5379:

Caedmon.6798:

Honestly if you just De-tour because you see a single guy running and you feel the need to steamroll him with 25 guys….Un-Install.

Red is dead.

Killing a solo roamer or small group when you’re in a large group?
Of course you have to do it. So what if they don’t stand a chance? If you don’t kill them maybe they’ll take a tower 3 minutes later. Maybe they’re bringing supply to another group. Maybe they’re scouting. Every single enemy you kill is a tactical advantage.

If you want to play fair, just go play chess or something.

^
Exactly.

This made me think of that scene in Saving Private Ryan when they let that german soldier walk away counting to 100 only to see him later, back in a regiment fighting with a rifle.

We Generally leave roamers to roam, only when we are about to fight a guild in the next minute and some members needs sigil stacks would we quickly kill and only if they are right next to us, we wouldn’t chase. If you attack us, we’ll kill you and if you are blocking our group from doing something (standing in a capture ring) we’ll kill you.

Guilds don’t add ever! Guilds on AG like to test their strength on their own and the only way to do that is by fighting alone, until the last man stands. Other guilds will watch from the sides, let the enemy guild res up and regroup themselves and then take their turn to fight them where the last guild may have failed.

Generally ask in /map or /team if they need help or want you to add before doing so. Adding into a fight, even one that your ally Guild is losing, isn’t going to help that guild get better.

They have OS for Duels and GvG, They have SPvP for team combat. Anyone that roams or soloes in WvW knows the risks they are taking, so no, if your in my way your getting steam rolled. The couple of times our guild has attempted to “go around” a small man group they either try and take out part of our tail or start nuking so no not going to happen.

At what point was this topic directed at deciding whether or not to engage on an otherwise disengaged roaming group?

The topic is in regard to adding to an ongoing equal guild fight and whether or not it is ethical to jump in and ruin that fight for both sides.

As for my guild, we typically don’t even add in on opposing guild fights to make it three-way if we can see that the fight is good, let alone friendly ones where the scales would clearly tip into our favor. There were countless times where teams were fighting it out and we just stood by and let it happen because we really want people to have those opportunities for solid fun and experience.

In that case it would be totally server dependant, in many cases in the lower tiers we don’t have the luxury of “equal fights” we have to be prepared to fight larger numbers. If people add in on the fight so be it. I played DAoC for years and the 8 man mentality is a completely different senario then GW2. Again this is why I brought up OS and small mans ect, if you want even uninterupted fights you have OS to do that in.

I think part of the fun of fighting superior numbers is when they just keep adding and you still come out on top. Red is dead, bags are bags.

Let me give you some examples of a typical [Choo] raid and let me just pick yesterday so I don’t have to go back and dig up video archives.

+ STUN + NAGA vs SG + NS vs BG - Here we made a judgment call that in terms of # STUN + NAGA = NS. In terms of guilds of course its a 2v1. But we decided that we don’t want (respawning?) adds from SG join in on the fight so that its a better experience for STUN/NAGA/NS. It was right next to JQ’s spawn. You have to remember that all 3 of them are “named” guilds.

If we had gotten involved and STUN/NAGA would’ve won then we are taking away the glory from them. You know – the little special moment within a guild where everyone hi-five each other for a job well done for a hard won battle. We didn’t want to take that away. If they wipe then STUN/NAGA are big-boy guilds, they would just dust themselves up and probably do their typical internal review etc..If they ask us to help them though (say on /map) we would definitely have gone in.

I can tell you that it was very tempting to go in and tag (not do any meaningful damage – just tag) for bags. But if everyone in [Choo] starts tagging then its over..LOL. Fortunately, [Choo] tends to have a pretty discipline army.

Now, here is the same set of guilds, but this time it involves an “objective”. Then I think anything is game.

Another example vs NS + Pro. Pro didn’t engage us until after we won the fight vs NS. In this case, I suppose they might have more, but I think its still a fair game (this isn’t GvG afterall). I also think that back to back engagement is fair – you don’t need to wait for another guild to get all their CD’s up.

The final criteria I would say is the group composition and the reputation of the guild. If it’s a mixed group (obviously led by a community commander – not a guild running untagged) then anything is game. If a certain guild keeps trying to sneak engage us mid fight then I would develop a certain expectation that said guild is one that would engage in that kind of behavior. I would just kind of come to expect it. Doesn’t mean that I don’t respect them though. oPP/RIOT are good examples. I kind of expect them to engage us when we are fighting someone else, but at the same time I think highly of them too!

Finally, its a game after all. I think all guilds should make some sub-troll guilds for the occasional quick, cheap fun :-p

Now this is highly situational.

For example I don’t really add to the fights that happen on open field and are equal. Because I know a good fight is a good fight and it would be a shame to ruin it for someone.

Now on the other hand, if I knew there was an objective in danger I would and I will add. It’s an objective and it is my job to defend it. I’m a defender, from toe to hair.

Want to comment a bit on the side track of roamers.

Yes, I do kill them as well, even with double numbers because I know exactly the damage they can do. And I will especially kill them if I know that my border is on upgrade state or refill state. One guy can take camp, and that one guy can hurt the supply route for a very long time by himself, prolong the upgrade or refill to the extend that we will eventually lose the objective because of good roaming. So yea, I kill roamers because I know they play as big role as all those big groups as well.

Smokee.1754:

Having played games such as DAoC and WAR, I am used to a culture where groups and guilds dont add on each other if the fights seem even. This has been an unspoken rule amongst guilds that most if not all have agreed on. Same goes for killing groups smaller than yours / roamers.

However in GW2 it is rare to see this behavior from guilds. I wonder if its because we play on NA servers and NA dont have the same history in previous mmos, or its a general thing for GW2?

Its not a rant about other servers, cause guilds on my own server ( Blackgate ) is just as bad at doing this as others are. I am just wondering why people do this, and hopefully a discussion about this can lead to, what imo would be a better WvW enviroment.

First off, I myself never knew this was an unspoken rule. So, right there, I think it’s a culture clash of EU DAoC players vs. everyone else. Many of the other commanders that we both play with started commanding here in GW2. This is our first experience to an open world pvp environment. Please, keep in mind, Smokee, that very few guilds have been together for the 10+ years that HB has and haven’t had nearly that same amount of MMO experience as well.

We’re both on BG and we both know that BG usually runs multiple smaller groups. JQ and whoever else might be in T1 usually runs map zergs. I know if I see an enemy fighting an ally, I immediately want to help out because they are most likely facing much larger numbers and will probably immediately benefit from some water fields or war banners.

Even if I did know this was an unspoken rule, I probably wouldn’t adhere too closely with it. I’m not going to sit around for 10 seconds or whatever and try to figure out if it’s an even fight. By the time I’m done, and if I was wrong, my allies might be dead. Better to not hesitate and get in the fray to help.

This is WvW. I don’t see it as being fair. If I’m in a group of 20, I’m going to kill a group of 10. That group of 10 can easily take a camp, kill yaks, take a tower, or even a keep if the timing’s right. I want them dead.

Roamers of 1 or 2, I’ll generally skip because I want to keep people together and I usually have someplace better to be. Speed is a huge factor to winning. However, if I don’t want them following me at all, then I will run them over because I don’t want them reporting where I’m going. Also, If I think that they are a bloodlust group, I’ll run them over.

Since this is a concern of yours, maybe just say something in CC. Have your guildies keep an eye on the tags on the map so that is someone is approaching, you can say “Hey, don’t engage, we’re trying to see if we can win this fight ourselves.” The flip side is that if you see an even fight, ask in CC if they want help. I know it’s been really hard lately since our TS has been down so much due to attacks.

Zanshin.5379:

Caedmon.6798:

Honestly if you just De-tour because you see a single guy running and you feel the need to steamroll him with 25 guys….Un-Install.

Red is dead.

Killing a solo roamer or small group when you’re in a large group?
Of course you have to do it. So what if they don’t stand a chance? If you don’t kill them maybe they’ll take a tower 3 minutes later. Maybe they’re bringing supply to another group. Maybe they’re scouting. Every single enemy you kill is a tactical advantage.

If you want to play fair, just go play chess or something.

You are obviously not getting it,At All..Lemme gues,youre on an NA server ?

OP: You have the same chance of getting others to act how you deem appropriate as they do to you. Good luck!

What happens when you outnumber your opponent 3 to 1 and still stay together as a blob (and sometimes drop siege on top of that?)

Do you personally ask your guilds to break off and allow an even exchange or continue on as one blob?

I never actually see that happen in T1 at all (groups splitting off)

In terms of defending a structure I think anything goes.

When it comes to guilded fights though I think it would be fair to apply some consideration to the numbers in the fight before stepping in.

“OK, guys, we have 28 people… they have 1, 2, 3, wait that thief just stealthed, I think I counted him twice, 3, 4, 5, quit moving so I can count dangit, 6, 7, 8, hold on, that one just died, 7, 8, oh they’re hard rezzing, 10, 11….”

Just seems silly to me. See a group of folks, dive and and kill as many of ’em as you can. Heck with counting.

Odies.8017:

Medeyn.8562:

I don’t think is something that really happens in normal WvW, and I believe that in T1, doing those ‘scrims’ and asking people not to jump in is pretty wrong.

People chose t1 for the constant fights and always having numbers to fight against. Doing those scrims causes problems for atleast 1 Server.

For example. Sever A is fighting Server B inbetween garrison and Bay, Server A and B are both the invader server, Server C sees these swords and pushes on Sever A’s bay. This starts off a double team straight away, simply because the server saw swords in that area.

OR

The fights are happening at the windmill ( better spot ) It shows people are down there, and you are going to pull part of the map down. We know there are queues in T1, so pulling ~20-25 ppl to basically, be useless to the map. Affects everyone else on your server, and it lets the server without ppl involved gain advantage.

Your best bet is do to it in Obsidian Sanctum or even Eotm. Doing it in the BL’s can get annoying

Okay let’s put this in PPT words so you can understand,

A full map force wouldn’t go and take one camp would they? Then why have multiple forces attack one enemy force. Think of the fighting guilds as a distraction for the other enemy forces and a opportunity for you to take that distraction to capture your points.

Also like you stated most fighting guilds run around 20-25 people on a map. If they’re fighting equal sized enemy force then that server also has 20-25 people. So there is no disadvantage by having fighting guilds on a map.

Most guilds who play for the fights also know that taking or attacking a tower/keep will bring fights to them. They may not do it for the tick and the ppt but none the less they are still capturing points and helping their server.

Fighting guilds will always be on whatever BL so instead of complaining about it use them to your advantage and stop being disrespectful to the way they play the game.

I’m bringing MY opinions to light in NA T1 environment. Being as that is where I am playing, and I know Smokee is also in NA T1. I’ll be more specific this time to each point I make

1. “A whole force wouldn’t take a camp” You’d be surprised at what you see in T1 NA. Regardless, It isn’t easy to control all the people on you, If they want supply, they’ll go into that camp, jump into the fight and grab supply.

2. I never said it was a disadvantage, I said it EFFECTS the way the map politics work, meaning, the third server, which ISN’T involved in the said ‘open field fight in front of where ever’ gains the advantage because they will have an extra 20-25 people than both other servers, should they decide to bum rush a keep/tower, 20-25 people can make a large difference.

3. I’m not trying to flame or disrespect “fighting” guilds. Almost none exist that wouldn’t help you attack/defend a keep or create a distraction if you asked them too, However, if you compare them to a PPT guild, that PPT guild will always be putting pressure on an enemy structure, flipping a camp, orb etc. Fighting guild, MAY or may not spend some time pressuring the enemy, and the rest fighting in places which do not support your own server. This isn’t an issue if all three servers are involved, but as I said earlier, WvWvW is a 3 server race. So that’s when it can be an issue.

4. Please check my server history. I know each type of guild. I was on SoR for over a year, so I know the difference between “fighting guilds” and PPT guilds. I haven’t broken any friendships from said fighting guilds, and I often speak to many people in ‘those’ guilds for build advice to change the way my guys play, or add new tactics.

Smokee wrote this thread so people could put THEIR opinions on the matter, so we would shine a light on what we all think about the situation. Not so you could come and say YOU ARE WRONG

If you outnumber enemy that just mean that you are smarter and outplayed them.

Azelroth.6801:

What happens when you outnumber your opponent 3 to 1 and still stay together as a blob (and sometimes drop siege on top of that?)

Do you personally ask your guilds to break off and allow an even exchange or continue on as one blob?

I never actually see that happen in T1 at all (groups splitting off)

In terms of defending a structure I think anything goes.

When it comes to guilded fights though I think it would be fair to apply some consideration to the numbers in the fight before stepping in.

First of all, we would never engage in an open fight where we outnumber the enemy 3-1. If we come close to 2 guilds or a guild fighting a guild + pugforce, we ask if they need / want help before we engage, unless they look outnumbered alot, in which case we’d dive right in.

Dhampyr.2104:

“OK, guys, we have 28 people… they have 1, 2, 3, wait that thief just stealthed, I think I counted him twice, 3, 4, 5, quit moving so I can count dangit, 6, 7, 8, hold on, that one just died, 7, 8, oh they’re hard rezzing, 10, 11….”

Just seems silly to me. See a group of folks, dive and and kill as many of ’em as you can. Heck with counting.

Its not about fighting 15v20 og 20v20. I realise this is WvW and trully even fights will almost never happen. However you sometimes find yourself on the field fighting another guild that has about the same output as you do, regarding numbers difference. In this case I believe it is a lack of respect from other guilds to add in on this fight.

Regarding fighting in objectives I agree that everything goes, though I would prolly ask before rushing into a T1 tower if I see a known fighting guild having fun in there.

Medeyn.8562:

Smokee wrote this thread so people could put THEIR opinions on the matter, so we would shine a light on what we all think about the situation. Not so you could come and say YOU ARE WRONG

This. It is not about beeing right or wrong, but a naive hope that sharring opinions and having a discussion about the subject can lead to more fights the way I want them, which is a trully selfish goal.

Wasn’t there some sort of arena created for people to do that sort of thing?

Kumu Honua.2751:

Wasn’t there some sort of arena created for people to do that sort of thing?

Yes, but I don’t think people knows where or what to do with them arenas?

Azelroth.6801:

In terms of defending a structure I think anything goes.

When it comes to guilded fights though I think it would be fair to apply some consideration to the numbers in the fight before stepping in.

this is my view on it as well. there are a few other factors as well, such as exactly how close the small group is. if we only have to veer 20 feet to the left, while still running pretty much in the same direction, then yeah, might as well. if they’re hitting a camp on the other side of the map, breaking a 5-10 man group off to handle that is much better. that being said, there are some times where it’s the proper strategic move to hunt down that small group with a full zerg. such as if, they’ve been denying supply to a keep for a few hours, because wiping them with a zerg once or twice will chase them away and allow the supplies to get in for the upgrades. or if they kill our yaks, then we must make the borderlands run red with their blood. and EB. and EotM, and anywhere else those filthy yak murderers may be hiding.

Since an arena exists where you can “Control” or at least expect “Civility” then all is fair in love and war on the battlegrounds.

I will not hesitate to attack an enemy when I have an ally under attack. I don’t care that you are having a duel. There is a place for that. It’s not the battlegrounds.

I would have to agree with some of what Spurnshadow said, as far I knew, this was never a rule in NA T1. Most NA guilds on BG (ICOA, GOF, ONS, KNT, JINX, SG, BLK, etc… ) work together very closely on almost all engagements in the same map. Sometimes a force will be out of reach and the other will ask if they need assistance or if they can handle it….. but 95% of the time the guilds will work together to hit enemy forces because 99% of the time the enemy forces are usually quite larger….. due the never ending blobbing that occurs in T1.

But, this does not say that I dont have respect for the fighting guilds like apex or HB. The exact opposite, I find them pretty awesome and love to watch them scrimm all the time, both because its fun, and there is also a lot to learn from them and how they perform combat. (i pay attention to everything and am always working to improve…. which means i watch all forms of combat)

BUT…… the main map force or supporting map forces have no idea if its a scrimm or a fight they need help with unless they communicate it via Mapchat, wisper or, CC. I have no problem with scrimms, but if i dont know ahead of time that is what is happening , I WILL slam right into the unknown battle and kill as many as i can……. as that is the goal of WVW and is what happens 95% of the time on the maps during NA for the majority of guilds.