Came back after a hiatus and only 1 hour into WvW’ing (roaming) I still find myself frustrated with what I think is the only thing that holds this game back.
WvW is all about escaping fights. There are rarely any equal # fights (closely #‘d at least) that doesn’t involve kiting and one side running away. Even 1v4 fights involve 4 guys trying desperately to slow down that warrior or thief who is just flying away. In the end, its just too annoying to kill anything when one side wants to leave.
Its a result of the combat style, and doesn’t effect fighting over objectives. But i find it as the sole reason why I don’t want to log in. Anyone else hate this?
I run away a lot, but mostly cause I just ignore that thief or mes trying to get me into fighting them, just to have the fight turn into a game of hide and seek. If I played with conditions maybe I might still have a chance to kill them but nope, I love my rifle engie. So I just do to then what they would do to me anyways :P Ill stop by for the rest of the classes though.
I think the game would have been better if they had made leaps only work on enemies and if stealth had been designed differently (or not put in the game at all, honestly). It just makes fighting people less fun when you have spend half your time chasing.
Downed state and the ease at which people can run away are two of the many things people will not miss about GW2 when another good RvR game finally comes out.
Maybe if fights weren’t so mind numbingly boring and pathetic, people wouldn’t run away.
Condi Thieves
PU Mesmers
Perplexity Engineers
Stealth Spam Thieves
Mobility is huge in WvW for sure. I don’t see how it’s Anet’s problem that you have chosen to play a class and or build that isn’t as mobile as your opponent is. I personally play a glassy condi mesmer that struggles to run down warriors, thieves, engis, eles, even teleporting guardians. Countering your opponents strengths is what PvP is all about isn’kitten There certainly are plenty of options out there to do so in this case IMO.
It just makes fighting people less fun when you have spend half your time chasing.
Well, in fairness, you don’t have to chase them.
Sometimes it’s important to kill someone because you really need to keep a dolyak path clear for a while, or when the fight you just had was pretty perilous and you’re worried they’ll just keep resetting and attacking you over and over again until they get lucky (HI THIEVES!), but there’s lots of other times when you can just shrug your shoulders and let them go. Maybe do some half-hearted chasing to put some fear into ’em so they run further.
It just makes fighting people less fun when you have spend half your time chasing.
Well, in fairness, you don’t have to chase them.
Sometimes it’s important to kill someone because you really need to keep a dolyak path clear for a while, or when the fight you just had was pretty perilous and you’re worried they’ll just keep resetting and attacking you over and over again until they get lucky (HI THIEVES!), but there’s lots of other times when you can just shrug your shoulders and let them go. Maybe do some half-hearted chasing to put some fear into ’em so they run further.
The path of “well, you don’t have to actually stomp them, you won because they ran away” eventually ends in people just not even bothering to fight each other. Why spend the time when most of the time you’ll either draw or lose? At least in pvp you get the satisfaction of “well, I get to keep this point for my team,” in wvw you get nothing.
At least in pvp you get the satisfaction of “well, I get to keep this point for my team,” in wvw you get nothing.
You get to cap BL bloodlust for your team. You get a camp. You get a tower. You get to kill a dolyak and that delays their garrison waypoint for a few more minutes. Heck, maybe all you get is the ability to stay there and scout the thing you wanted to scout.
The map is covered in objectives, many of which only require a small group to take. If you’re fighting for nothing in the middle of nowhere, well, why are you doing that?
At least in pvp you get the satisfaction of “well, I get to keep this point for my team,” in wvw you get nothing.
You get to cap BL bloodlust for your team. You get a camp. You get a tower. You get to kill a dolyak and that delays their garrison waypoint for a few more minutes. Heck, maybe all you get is the ability to stay there and scout the thing you wanted to scout.
The map is covered in objectives, many of which only require a small group to take. If you’re fighting for nothing in the middle of nowhere, well, why are you doing that?
Fun is the right answer. WvW is a lot about objectives, but its also fun to fight people. Laying an ambush and engaging enemies means nothing when they can just run away. Or you can chase them for 10 minutes until they find a keep or a zerg makes you run away.
The whole point of this topic was that extreme mobility is fine in the combat system, but being able to escape with the same mobility makes the “player vs player” more into “players capturing objectives, and sometimes having incidental combat with other players. But don’t worry, you can always run away if you want.” There is very limited investment into engaging an enemy, which makes non objective fights very dis-interesting and “cheap”.
Nah. sPvP is the same as WvW in principle: PPT. And “players capturing objectives and sometimes having incidental combat with other players” is also found in sPvP. Due to the smaller size of an sPvP map and normalized stats and gear, fights feel better, like you need more skill to win them. Roaming in hotjoin where you don’t have to care about the score means you don’t have to run for 5 minutes or more looking for them. You’ll also find zerging or “ktraining” – running to all the points capping and backcapping and avoiding fights just like in WvW.
Mind you, in ranked PvP matches, the competition level goes up. You can’t zerg or ktrain to win and roaming is a dedicated team role, not something you can just choose to do on your own. You have to know both about capping and holding the objectives and winning fights. It’s a much more fun PPT game than WvW because you know that it is a game of teams of equal size and the only coverage issues you have to worry about is when one of your team members dc’s.
Chaba Tangnu
Founding member of [NERF] Fort Engineer and driver for [TLC] The Legion of Charrs
RIP [SIC] Strident Iconoclast
This is WvW, not PvP. You don’t do your server any favors by dying. You do it favors by surviving. Running is just part of WvW. Sure, I prefer a good fight. But if our group of 8 or 10 runs into 30 and it looks like we’ll get crushed (not always the case – we’ve beaten those odds many times), it’s better to WP and go cap something while the zerg is busy wondering where we went :p
This is WvW, not PvP. You don’t do your server any favors by dying. You do it favors by surviving. Running is just part of WvW. Sure, I prefer a good fight. But if our group of 8 or 10 runs into 30 and it looks like we’ll get crushed (not always the case – we’ve beaten those odds many times), it’s better to WP and go cap something while the zerg is busy wondering where we went :p
Nobody is criticizing people for running. They are criticizing the fact that the game makes it so easy to run in the first place.
Fun is the right answer. WvW is a lot about objectives, but its also fun to fight people. Laying an ambush and engaging enemies means nothing when they can just run away. Or you can chase them for 10 minutes until they find a keep or a zerg makes you run away.
I agree that it’s fun to fight people. It’s fun to stomp them, too! If someone runs away when they’re about to die, I don’t get to enjoy stomping them, but, well, whatever, it’s not like I didn’t get to enjoy the fight.
Some classes are really good at escaping, but I really wouldn’t say anybody gets a magic button that’ll consistently save their kitten .
The ability to run away also helps you avoid “unfair” fights, which are all over WvW. Don’t tell me you don’t feel good when you get away from six people all trying to gank you.
Eh, sorry Jeknar.6184. I said I just came back to the game after a hiatus.
From some of the comments on here, I guess the real issue is that WvW is treated as a large objective based competition, rather than an open world rvr area. When there is a scoring system in place it becomes less about combat and testing yourself against other players, and more about doing everything you can to win the game.
Not saying that there is anything wrong with that, but I think I just realized that its not what I am looking for, and not what I keep hoping it is.
well what am i supposed to do when attacked, be forced to fight back no matter what?? Fighting is based around Damage, Support, Control. You have to CC them, than damage them and heal if needed. If you want to just run damage and heal without the 3rd component, than your not adhering to the principles combat was designed around.
Mobility isn’t the problem, allowing them to use it is.
Everyone has access to some form of CC and/or immobilize. If you’re roaming you should know ahead of time to bring some of that with you. Control and mobility are the two most important things to have when roaming. If someone tries to escape, immobilize them, fear them, stun, daze, launch, knockdown or pull them as long as it prevents them from fleeing.
Now, before I get flamed, I understand that CC can be avoided and once your opponent recovers they’ll probably just go straight back to running away. But if you time it properly they shouldn’t get far.
Maybe do some half-hearted chasing to put some fear into ’em so they run further.
^ Story of my life, lol. I prefer to just let people run if they’re going to waste my time. Generally, they won’t get the chance to do so but no one’s perfect and there are loads of times where someone will slip through my fingers. When that happens, I don’t usually bother with chasing them very far. I just run a little ways, pause, make sure they’re still hauling kitten and I find myself something better to do.
I don’t think there’s an actual problem with mobility investment for most classes. Outside of a few apparent cases, such as the gtfowarrior and shortbow thieves, leaps and dashes are fairly nonspammable, and using them to engage locks you out of using them to leave the fight for what I consider respectable times.
The problem is that most people get roaming confused with dueling. Disengagement is mandatory in one and superfluous in the other, so when people roam with dueling builds, they get into alot of cases where they’re winning the 1v1, and then the other guy has a way out/back in that they don’t. This leads to alot of people complaining that “I should have won that but he got away”, when the only reason they should have won was because the other guy built to get away.
Maybe if fights weren’t so mind numbingly boring and pathetic, people wouldn’t run away.
Condi Thieves
PU Mesmers
Perplexity Engineers
Stealth Spam Thieves
Yea, I totally want to fight those.
Go to PvP if you want 1v1s. Complaining about it in WvW doesn’t make sense. Do something to actually help your server.
I agree to an extent, if I’m on my staff Ele and trying to meet up with the guild when I get jumped, I’m going to try and escape/run because my build is not designed to fight 1 vs. X, its designed to compliment what the guild needs.
Now with that said, if I’m out roaming during off guild hours and I engage an enemy I will stick around until I die that is unless I see a zerg running up then ya I’m out. There is nothing worse then a “roamer” that runs from a fair fight the moment they start to lose, I’m not talking about kiting to gain some CD ect I’m talking about running like a kitten. If you are roaming and looking for fights, man up and die when things don’t go your way, its not like repairs cost anything.
Even in PvP it’s not often you’ll find fair fights, so it’s only fair in WvW where things are far more unbalanced in terms of builds if one side is able to get away especially if you are a Solo Roamer, whom most people try to gank every single time if no one else is roaming themselves.
Oh yeah, some builds/classes are just better at dis-engaging and re-engaging better than others of course which is annoying!
Scrubio
Plays completely opposite professions to his main Teef.
I didn’t read through everything, but I will say them being able to run away (except the Warrior) I am 100% ok with, but they don’t run away, they are only resetting the fight, in 99% of the fights I have, when they “run away” they are back less than a minute later and I don’t think this should be the case. I think thieves and mesmers should have that escape ability, but it should come at a high cost that would keep them from using those abilities to get away and then come right back once their CDs are up to try again. Warrior on the other hand is just backward, they should be more like guards who once into a fight are stuck in that fight, out of combat mobility for Warrior I don’t mind however, and quite enjoy it on my warrior and is a breath of fresh air when I swap from my guard.
If they run away, I won, plain and simple….If they reengage 6 times while I am capping a camp (and still can’t win) however, its just annoying and broken game play. Remove the ability some classes have to reengage over and over and I bet all of these “run away” threads stop.
This is WvW, not PvP. You don’t do your server any favors by dying. You do it favors by surviving. Running is just part of WvW. Sure, I prefer a good fight. But if our group of 8 or 10 runs into 30 and it looks like we’ll get crushed (not always the case – we’ve beaten those odds many times), it’s better to WP and go cap something while the zerg is busy wondering where we went :p
Nobody is criticizing people for running. They are criticizing the fact that the game makes it so easy to run in the first place.
But the whole point is that fighting in 1v4 or whatever is not the objective of WvW. If you get “frustrated” by people running away, then this is not the right arena. The OP would be better off to go sPvP. There, the objectives would more suit what he’s looking for. People who WvW do make builds specifically for escaping, mobility, resetting fights. And that’s fine, because the purpose is to gain points for your side, not die in a 1v4.
