Guild Wars 2

Toughness should mitigate Condition damage, it is totally silly that Condition bypass all armor, i mean, being tough should mean ability to take damage or resist damage.

Toughness as a stat should give you 1% resistance per 20 points toughness

you realize that at 1700 toughness, that’s 85%, yes?

yeah, but it wouldn’t be a flat out 85% damage reduction, there is other much better ways to do it im sure, but its kinda silly that a player playing full bunker who deals no damage can be dropped in seconds due to silly conditions they just bypass everything, they buffed conditions too much imho

So at 3k toughness conditions would do negative damage? Why don’t you take more than 10 seconds with your idea before posting a thread

So you only want power builds in WvW?

Maybe you should eat lemongrass and use Mel runes to offset condition damage ? if not then it’s your own fault you die!

*Sounds like a ‘Waaa my zerker warrior with all zerker gear died to a condition build… I should not die to nerf conditions’ *

I really can’t tell if you are serious or not.

The whole condition mechanic needs a complete overhaul in this game.

Allowing conditions to be hit by toughness and things like protection would be a great start. But at the same time, things that lengthen and reduce condition duration need some kind of cap as well.

I’m fine with foods and runes and such existing. But they should be there as an alternative to traiting, not an addition to it.

1% reduction for every 100 armor is a reasonable starting point so long as condition duration is capped at something like a 60-140% range.

Love these suggestions from people that dont actually think about them. All just to nerf Conditions across the board.

First of all, its hilarious because there is only 1 profession with 1 build in WvW running wild AND using conditions. As opposed to several builds across multiple professions that run rampant using direct damage. But yah, conditions are to blame. Go figure…

Even more glorious is the solution from these forum greats. Because that 1 build from that 1 profession is to strong we should nerf all conditions across all professions and builds. Even the builds that have been fine since release, even builds that are even terrible.
Thats like saying Guardians need a damage nerf because Thieves backstab hurts a lot.

They also tend to completely ignore Conditions just work a little bit diffirent from Direct damage. Dodging/Blocking a condition ability works just as well as dodging a direct-damage ability. But if i fail to prevent the ability, incase of condition damage i get a second chance to remove it after the fact.
To bad most people think that 1 bleed and 3sec poison is a good enough reason to blow all their condition removal. Thats like using your Immunity against a Warrior just autoattacking you. And then complaining you couldnt do anything against that 100b burst 5seconds later.
Learn to use your counters at the right time. You arent going to counter 100% of all conditions and you shouldnt be able to. If you could counter 100% of all conditions, condition builds would be redundant. If you want to counter my damage you should sacrifice something for it, just like i have to sacrifice (a lot) to deal with crazy direct-damage bursts.

I was thinking there should be foods/runes/traits etc that could reduce condition damage, not just durations.

But your idea is terrible.

Cutting a conditions duration is reducing the amount of HP you lose. Armor reducing conditions would completely break the use of conditions that reduce HP. Also, condition damage has diminishing returns built into it. Unlike the multiple power builds that scale up.

Toughness needs a serious boost in the game, as well as armor types. Having over 3k armor one should not be getting hit for 6+k.

DeWolfe.2174:

Cutting a conditions duration is reducing the amount of HP you lose. Armor reducing conditions would completely break the use of conditions that reduce HP. Also, condition damage has diminishing returns built into it. Unlike the multiple power builds that scale up.

this

plus the fact that there r SOO many things that remove conditions, l2spec

And I want thieves not to remove all my conditions during stealth and heal. But that’s not going to happen.

I’ll agree to that if condition clense is completely removed. Conditions work because they ignore toughness…that’s the beauty behind conditions. Remove that and you do less damage than full PTV class. Also, do you realize how unkillable guardians would be now?

Bailey.6892:

Toughness needs a serious boost in the game, as well as armor types. Having over 3k armor one should not be getting hit for 6+k.

QQ on backstab is that way….

KOK.2650:

Bailey.6892:

Toughness needs a serious boost in the game, as well as armor types. Having over 3k armor one should not be getting hit for 6+k.

QQ on backstab is that way….

A 6k backstab on 3k armor requires a significant amount of buffs/conditions to pull off. Even with a lot of power and solid crit dmg, a 6k BS hit is at the high upper end of possible damage on a non-conditioned 3k armor build.

((Weapon strength * Skill coefficient * Power) * (Multipliers)) / Armor

((806 * 2.4 * 3000) * 3.00) / 3000 = 5803

In this case we are going with 100% on crit damage plus the base 150% and another 50% from the weapon sigil, traits, etc. Stacked on a character with 3000 power and hitting from behind. Basically a REALLY glassy thief with a perfect hit.

A 6k backstab on 3k armor requires a significant amount of buffs/conditions to pull off. Even with a lot of power and solid crit dmg, a 6k BS hit is at the high upper end of possible damage on a non-conditioned 3k armor build.

((Weapon strength * Skill coefficient * Power) * (Multipliers)) / Armor

((806 * 2.4 * 3000) * 3.00) / 3000 = 5803

In this case we are going with 100% on crit damage plus the base 150% and another 50% from the weapon sigil, traits, etc. Stacked on a character with 3000 power and hitting from behind. Basically a REALLY glassy thief with a perfect hit.
[/quote]
At least it can be done from one thief.It is impossible for condition dmg to hit you for 6k in 1 tick from one attacker. Even more than 2k a tick is pretty much impossible.

Thief has one the best condition remove abilities. If condition is a issue for you, why not spec into it.

conditions need nerf whether this idea or something else. reduce condition duration by 33% as a new boon added to alot of skills

They should put an condition resistance like in other games like Diablo 3 (fire, poison, all resistance etc.) I don’t get it, why is out of GW2?

We need a specific “take less damage from conditions” attribute, but toughness is not that stat for that.

Preferably reducing damage taken from conditions should come from Healing Power and scale around a .0001 coefficient (I.E. 1000 healing power reduces condition damage by 10%). Heavily investing in Healing Power I doubt most classes would be capable of much more than 3k healing power, which would serve as a sort of soft cap of around 30% reduction of condition damage. In terms of balance its the most viable concept as healing power scales the worst out of all stats and could be justified in scaling poorly by also providing reduction of condition damage.

Terrahero.9358:

To bad most people think that 1 bleed and 3sec poison is a good enough reason to blow all their condition removal. Thats like using your Immunity against a Warrior just autoattacking you. And then complaining you couldnt do anything against that 100b burst 5seconds later.
Learn to use your counters at the right time.

this

Learn to use your counters at the right time.

and this

Learn to use your counters at the right time.

and this

Learn to use your counters at the right time.

and again this.

Learn

and

right time.

Nothing else.

Vitality > Toughness
Condi > Power

Truth in GW2, we all know it.

Learn to use your counters at the right time.

Animation: GS Guardian attacks, missed !
Animation: Necro bombs, hit !

You all make small asuras and play classes that have zero to very little casting animations, and say “L2 Dodge” While youre condi bombing classes that have very visible power based animations saying “Ha I see your attack, I haz dodge buttonz”

L2telegraph your skills just like GS Guardians, etc is what I say!

There should be a resist stat.

Nothing else to be said about it.

Littlefeather.8623:

Vitality > Toughness
Condi > Power

Truth in GW2, we all know it.

Toughness positively impacts healing and is better in longer fights and zergs. The concept that vitality is a superior stat really applies to the beginning of a fight and against condi damage.

Condi damage being so easy to apply right now does make it better than power on several builds but ultimately power scales better than additions to condi damage.

KOK.2650:

At least it can be done from one thief.It is impossible for condition dmg to hit you for 6k in 1 tick from one attacker. Even more than 2k a tick is pretty much impossible.

Thief has one the best condition remove abilities. If condition is a issue for you, why not spec into it.

For a thief to do 6k against a hardened target, it requires full glass and perfect execution. For a condi build to do 2k or more per tick, the player can be almost completely bunker. That same thief that hits for 6k can easily be hit for 10k+ and has a low HP pool. Given the same attacker with the same stats a thief can be one shotted:

((806 * 2.4 * 3000) * 3.00) / 1064 = 16382

Sorry but I’ve gotta call you out on this. You want the damage source that’s sole purpose is to get around toughness should be mitigated by toughness? Logic much?
If anything it should be Vitality that mitigates condi. It was originally intended to be the condi counter.

Some sPvP heros try to nerf condition damage again. Power necro is much more effective in real www fight than condition necro.

Conditions have barely been changed since Release, with the occasional nerf here or there. However, what has changed is the addition of Dhummfire (spelling) which necro’s didn’t even want. It is the same trait Engineers get as a minor trait. The difference is that Necro’s can put their conditions on 1 player and spread it to others. I actually try and follow the players who are using Runes of Perplexity, and when they get 18 – 25 stacks confusion, I Epidemic and laugh at groups who kill themselves, now that is fun.

Littlefeather.8623:

Learn to use your counters at the right time.

Animation: GS Guardian attacks, missed !
Animation: Necro bombs, hit !

You all make small asuras and play classes that have zero to very little casting animations, and say “L2 Dodge” While youre condi bombing classes that have very visible power based animations saying “Ha I see your attack, I haz dodge buttonz”

L2telegraph your skills just like GS Guardians, etc is what I say!

And again, a NECRO issue. They get their undodgeable abilities, because Marks fire of instantly without any warning. And Doom is instant aswell.

Getting kinda sick of these “examples” where conditions are oooh so overpowered, and then its always a necro that does it.

Necro needs toning down, not conditions. Stop trying to nerf every single condition build, including the really kitten ones, just because 1 profession has a build that is a bit out of whack.
By comparison, there is 1 condition build you do not want to run into roaming. Well there are several direct-damage builds that will kitten you up if you run into them while roaming. Direct-damage builds are overall a much bigger issue in WvW then Conditions.

A Thief CnD’s and then backstabs for 10k+ easily in a second, so does this mean we should nerf all the direct damage, even on kittenty builds?

Yes insta cast single target fear is so game breaking in www. You fear one and 59 enemies still attack.

Junkpile.7439:

Yes insta cast single target fear is so game breaking in www. You fear one and 59 enemies still attack.

no one is arguing condis are OP in zerg fights. they are OP in small man and that’s the end of it. if you disagree go ask a dev, they DO agree.

Terrahero.9358:

And again, a NECRO issue. They get their undodgeable abilities, because Marks fire of instantly without any warning. And Doom is instant aswell.

Getting kinda sick of these “examples” where conditions are oooh so overpowered, and then its always a necro that does it.

Necro needs toning down, not conditions. Stop trying to nerf every single condition build, including the really kitten ones, just because 1 profession has a build that is a bit out of whack. By comparison, there is 1 condition build you do not want to run into roaming.

Necro, condi grenade engineer and pack mesmers… even condi warriors are proving tough to manage. Never seen so much torment, fear, poison, bleed, confusion, etc applied so quickly since the game started and from more than necros.

I am not agreeing with the OP, but the current change in build designs is pushing out anything without a lot of CR and vit which in some cases is entire classes.

Terrahero.9358:

Well there are several direct-damage builds that will kitten you up if you run into them while roaming. Direct-damage builds are overall a much bigger issue in WvW then Conditions.

Sorry nope. Thieves… they have to glass and get close to do big damage. Warriors… yep pain in the rear right now but they still have to close and get in your face to dish it out. I cannot really think of a 3rd direct DPS driven class. Current condi builds from several classes played by a decent player are tough to crack.

Terrahero.9358:

A Thief CnD’s and then backstabs for 10k+ easily in a second, so does this mean we should nerf all the direct damage, even on kittenty builds?

If someone can show me the math for this, I would appreciate it. For a 10k hit from a total glass thief with a perfect strike (as in it crits with a high crit dmg multiplier, full bloodlust, guard killer stacks, damage sigil, etc) the target would have to have an armor rating south of 1700. Seems like people keep doubling BS damage every time they talk about it.

The problem here, is that -considering how often ANet does not split skills in this GW- any “fix” applied for Conditions in WvW (or PvP) is going to transfer to PvE. Guess what? With the overwriting of Condi-stacks as an ingame mechanism, all allowing a “Resist” stat will do is make Condi-spec less workable in PvE. We’re already at a PvE meta where Direct DPS > Support > Control … do you really wish to make this bit worse?

As for the idea of Condi-spam, most Necro players never wanted Burning as a Condition, and did, in fact, take a damage drop on Terror for it. Perplexity’s being used -and abused- specifically because of ANet’s glad-handed treatment of WvW Confusion, particularily on Mesmers, the supposed “Confusion Masters.” Engi also took a hit there, but has more overall options for Conditions in general.

Now, what could work, at least in my mind:

• Alter the damage/stack on damaging Conditions to allow for a certain % more damage at the expense of stack # and/or Duration.
• Remove the phenomenon of “stack overwriting”
• Cap stacks at a more “manageable” number, say 10. This is balanced by the first idea.
• In PvE, lower the frequency and stacks of things such as Unshakeable/Defiant. There is a difference between making CC on a boss “difficult” and “nigh-impossible.”

If these things were done, and done well, it’d finally allow for a reasonable balance between DPS and Condition attacks. It would also finally implement ANet’s idea of the “Trinity” for the game.

Conditions are fine, they are easy to counter if you want to. Get the proper runes, foods and traits and no problem.

Toughness how ever is not fine and needs a serious boost. Perhaps have the armor sets give a base damage reduction.

Street cloths naked, or transformed (moose form etc) 0%
Light armor 10% reduction
Medium armor 15% reduction
Heavy Armor 25% reduction

And then the armor value and toughness added to it.

Or change it like daoc where armor did better against certain weapons.

Straegen.2938:

Terrahero.9358:

And again, a NECRO issue. They get their undodgeable abilities, because Marks fire of instantly without any warning. And Doom is instant aswell.

Getting kinda sick of these “examples” where conditions are oooh so overpowered, and then its always a necro that does it.

Necro needs toning down, not conditions. Stop trying to nerf every single condition build, including the really kitten ones, just because 1 profession has a build that is a bit out of whack. By comparison, there is 1 condition build you do not want to run into roaming.

Necro, condi grenade engineer and pack mesmers… even condi warriors are proving tough to manage. Never seen so much torment, fear, poison, bleed, confusion, etc applied so quickly since the game started and from more than necros.

I am not agreeing with the OP, but the current change in build designs is pushing out anything without a lot of CR and vit which in some cases is entire classes.

Terrahero.9358:

Well there are several direct-damage builds that will kitten you up if you run into them while roaming. Direct-damage builds are overall a much bigger issue in WvW then Conditions.

Sorry nope. Thieves… they have to glass and get close to do big damage. Warriors… yep pain in the rear right now but they still have to close and get in your face to dish it out. I cannot really think of a 3rd direct DPS driven class. Current condi builds from several classes played by a decent player are tough to crack.

Terrahero.9358:

A Thief CnD’s and then backstabs for 10k+ easily in a second, so does this mean we should nerf all the direct damage, even on kittenty builds?

If someone can show me the math for this, I would appreciate it. For a 10k hit from a total glass thief with a perfect strike (as in it crits with a high crit dmg multiplier, full bloodlust, guard killer stacks, damage sigil, etc) the target would have to have an armor rating south of 1700. Seems like people keep doubling BS damage every time they talk about it.

Funny that you are concerned over Engineer, seeing as they have pretty much been in the same stat since launch. Care to explain why suddenly Condition Engineers are now a problem and not, oh i duno, 6 months ago? They were even stronger 6 months ago since that was before the Confusion nerf.

Warriors are now, had a lot of buffs. More an issue of “how to deal with this new thing” then anything else.
But the only real problems we have lately are from Necro’s and the Perplexity Runes. Two things that should be fixed in their own right.

As for Thieves, when has it ever been a problem for the perma-stealth, highest mobility, teleportspamming profession to get close and do their big burst? I also didnt say 10k+ in 1 hit, but the Cloak n Dagger + Backstab combo which can be done in a fraction of a second can easily go above 10k damage. You dont even have to be all glass for it.
Thieves have, rightly so, received a ton of complains. Stealth being one thing, but burst definatly another. And Thieves of late havent been the only one. Warriors after their buff after buff have now gotten pretty stupidly bursty builds aswell. With enough stuns to guarentee a setup where you can fully unload with little risk of fail. ot to mention burst Mesmers that melt people incredibly fast.

In the meantime the only profession that people run into roaming that is an issue is, again, just the Necro.

People have been sacrificing a lot to deal with the instagibbing Thieves (and now Warriors) and theyve given up their Condition removal. Now we see Condition builds pop up to counter the new meta.
People are also very bad at countering conditions. I rarely find an opponent that actually uses Condition removal correctly. If they even have condition removal at all they usually blow it the moment they see 3 conditions on their bar. Nevermind its just 1 stack of Bleeding, a short poison and 2 stacks of Confusion.

Conds can be better mitigated than direct damage. There is no way for me to mitigate as much direct damage as a single cond clear can do Vs. a long duration burn or a lot of bleed/torment stacks. Then there is 40% duration food, Melandru, traits (on my eng it converts some incomming conditions to boons, my guard passively removes them every 10s etc.)….

Toughness is fine as is as well. You’re not meant to just tank every bit of damage in this game. You need to dodge as well to prevent that damage from even occurring in the first place. This actually opens up more builds by giving classes like guard vigor on crit (crits then become a way to mitigate damage). There are also sigils which can help your survival greatly by refilling your endurance.

Bailey.6892:

Conditions are fine, they are easy to counter if you want to. Get the proper runes, foods and traits and no problem.

Toughness how ever is not fine and needs a serious boost. Perhaps have the armor sets give a base damage reduction.

Toughness is fine. In a fight every heal is essentially boosted by armor. Toughness also mitigates spike damage. Vitality may be better in the first few seconds of a fight, but once it is gone there is nothing that gets it back. Toughness scales, vitality doesn’t sans condi damage.

Few classes have enough CC to handle multiple condi spammers or builds that stack multiple types of condi damage quickly. Trait/rune for it reduces effectiveness everywhere else in a build and doesn’t solve multi source condi damage. Some classes simply do not have much in the way of condi removal.

Terrahero.9358:

Funny that you are concerned over Engineer, seeing as they have pretty much been in the same stat since launch. Care to explain why suddenly Condition Engineers are now a problem and not, oh i duno, 6 months ago? They were even stronger 6 months ago since that was before the Confusion nerf.

Rune of Perplexity. This single set of runes has made the condi engineer a beast. Dropping 15, 20, 25 stacks on multiple players in seconds from a bunker is powerful.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQd53qlCvo8

I am also not “worried” about engi alone… condi damage has unbalanced skirmish/solo play leaving many of us trying to find a reasonable counter. Right now it seems perplexity needs an adjustment probably an ICD. The rest may just be about adjusting to heavy condition in general.

Terrahero.9358:

As for Thieves, when has it ever been a problem for the perma-stealth, highest mobility, teleportspamming profession to get close and do their big burst? I also didnt say 10k+ in 1 hit, but the Cloak n Dagger + Backstab combo which can be done in a fraction of a second can easily go above 10k damage. You dont even have to be all glass for it.

Decent players on decent builds can manage thieves. Bunkers even more so. CnD/BS combo pretty much works only on scrubs. Most classes immediately dodge, move out of position, etc before in lands. Nobody in our guild really prioritizes thieves as they are rarely the most dangerous player in skirmish or solo in the game today. Usually they get target locked when they hit low health as most cannot stand around blind AoE fire or ground targeted abilities.

How to counter the % of your health lost due to conditions featuring: Vitality

I personally love how the counter to condi is in your spells not your armor. I am all for building “tankyness” up to a certain point but really you should be able to come out of a fight alive not because you simply had good armor but because you used well time spells and such.

Active > Static defenses.

TheAmpca.1753:

How to counter the % of your health lost due to conditions featuring: Vitality

Vit only works at the start of a fight. Once extra vit health is gone nothing brings it back faster (this is why toughness is better in zergs). In fact nothing really mitigates condi damage as it can only be eliminated or waited out. Its duration can be reduced but when targets are applying it faster than a class/build can remove it nothing a player can do except take it… if torment is on running away isn’t even an option.

Straegen.2938:

Terrahero.9358:

Funny that you are concerned over Engineer, seeing as they have pretty much been in the same stat since launch. Care to explain why suddenly Condition Engineers are now a problem and not, oh i duno, 6 months ago? They were even stronger 6 months ago since that was before the Confusion nerf.

Rune of Perplexity. This single set of runes has made the condi engineer a beast. Dropping 15, 20, 25 stacks on multiple players in seconds from a bunker is powerful.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQd53qlCvo8

I am also not “worried” about engi alone… condi damage has unbalanced skirmish/solo play leaving many of us trying to find a reasonable counter. Right now it seems perplexity needs an adjustment probably an ICD. The rest may just be about adjusting to heavy condition in general.

Terrahero.9358:

As for Thieves, when has it ever been a problem for the perma-stealth, highest mobility, teleportspamming profession to get close and do their big burst? I also didnt say 10k+ in 1 hit, but the Cloak n Dagger + Backstab combo which can be done in a fraction of a second can easily go above 10k damage. You dont even have to be all glass for it.

Decent players on decent builds can manage thieves. Bunkers even more so. CnD/BS combo pretty much works only on scrubs. Most classes immediately dodge, move out of position, etc before in lands. Nobody in our guild really prioritizes thieves as they are rarely the most dangerous player in skirmish or solo in the game today. Usually they get target locked when they hit low health as most cannot stand around blind AoE fire or ground targeted abilities.

Conditions dont have an unbalanced skirmish/solo play… If that was true people wouldnt have been complaing about Direct-Damage burst builds in skirmish/solo play since launch.
I feel like i have to repeat myself here. Direct damage builds are a far bigger concern in roaming then condition builds. And also work in zergballing, where conditions actually dont due to excessive aoe condition removal.

Not to mention these lovely Hammer Warriors that roam around in a small pack (there you got with that skirmishing) and CC the everliving kitten out of you and your allies.

Perplexity is an issue in and of itself by no means limited to just Engineers. Hammer Warriors are even worst. But even Thieves and Mesmers take generous advantage of the broken mechanic of these runes.

And the “decent builds” you are talking about that deal with direct damage sacrifice everything to deal with it. To the point of carrying zero condition removal. And then turn around that their build doesnt work against conditions.
The problem isnt conditions, the problem if anything is the burst builds. That demand such a dedication to counter them in build and gear that your build is left crippled dealing with something that takes an entirely diffirent approach.

Straegen.2938:

Terrahero.9358:

And again, a NECRO issue. They get their undodgeable abilities, because Marks fire of instantly without any warning. And Doom is instant aswell.

Getting kinda sick of these “examples” where conditions are oooh so overpowered, and then its always a necro that does it.

Necro needs toning down, not conditions. Stop trying to nerf every single condition build, including the really kitten ones, just because 1 profession has a build that is a bit out of whack. By comparison, there is 1 condition build you do not want to run into roaming.

Necro, condi grenade engineer and pack mesmers… even condi warriors are proving tough to manage. Never seen so much torment, fear, poison, bleed, confusion, etc applied so quickly since the game started and from more than necros.

I am not agreeing with the OP, but the current change in build designs is pushing out anything without a lot of CR and vit which in some cases is entire classes.

Terrahero.9358:

Well there are several direct-damage builds that will kitten you up if you run into them while roaming. Direct-damage builds are overall a much bigger issue in WvW then Conditions.

Sorry nope. Thieves… they have to glass and get close to do big damage. Warriors… yep pain in the rear right now but they still have to close and get in your face to dish it out. I cannot really think of a 3rd direct DPS driven class. Current condi builds from several classes played by a decent player are tough to crack.

Terrahero.9358:

A Thief CnD’s and then backstabs for 10k+ easily in a second, so does this mean we should nerf all the direct damage, even on kittenty builds?

If someone can show me the math for this, I would appreciate it. For a 10k hit from a total glass thief with a perfect strike (as in it crits with a high crit dmg multiplier, full bloodlust, guard killer stacks, damage sigil, etc) the target would have to have an armor rating south of 1700. Seems like people keep doubling BS damage every time they talk about it.

To be fair on the backstab comment it is possible as i have pulled it off, but i was full glass, buffed to the max, and ran a very heavy damage traiting to pull it off. Even then it doesn’t happen against properly geared opponents. Easy to do on up-levels though.

Terrahero.9358:

Straegen.2938:

Terrahero.9358:

Funny that you are concerned over Engineer, seeing as they have pretty much been in the same stat since launch. Care to explain why suddenly Condition Engineers are now a problem and not, oh i duno, 6 months ago? They were even stronger 6 months ago since that was before the Confusion nerf.

Rune of Perplexity. This single set of runes has made the condi engineer a beast. Dropping 15, 20, 25 stacks on multiple players in seconds from a bunker is powerful.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQd53qlCvo8

I am also not “worried” about engi alone… condi damage has unbalanced skirmish/solo play leaving many of us trying to find a reasonable counter. Right now it seems perplexity needs an adjustment probably an ICD. The rest may just be about adjusting to heavy condition in general.

Terrahero.9358:

As for Thieves, when has it ever been a problem for the perma-stealth, highest mobility, teleportspamming profession to get close and do their big burst? I also didnt say 10k+ in 1 hit, but the Cloak n Dagger + Backstab combo which can be done in a fraction of a second can easily go above 10k damage. You dont even have to be all glass for it.

Decent players on decent builds can manage thieves. Bunkers even more so. CnD/BS combo pretty much works only on scrubs. Most classes immediately dodge, move out of position, etc before in lands. Nobody in our guild really prioritizes thieves as they are rarely the most dangerous player in skirmish or solo in the game today. Usually they get target locked when they hit low health as most cannot stand around blind AoE fire or ground targeted abilities.

Conditions dont have an unbalanced skirmish/solo play… If that was true people wouldnt have been complaing about Direct-Damage burst builds in skirmish/solo play since launch.
I feel like i have to repeat myself here. Direct damage builds are a far bigger concern in roaming then condition builds. And also work in zergballing, where conditions actually dont due to excessive aoe condition removal.

Not to mention these lovely Hammer Warriors that roam around in a small pack (there you got with that skirmishing) and CC the everliving kitten out of you and your allies.

Perplexity is an issue in and of itself by no means limited to just Engineers. Hammer Warriors are even worst. But even Thieves and Mesmers take generous advantage of the broken mechanic of these runes.

And the “decent builds” you are talking about that deal with direct damage sacrifice everything to deal with it. To the point of carrying zero condition removal. And then turn around that their build doesnt work against conditions.
The problem isnt conditions, the problem if anything is the burst builds. That demand such a dedication to counter them in build and gear that your build is left crippled dealing with something that takes an entirely diffirent approach.

This post sort of touches on my opinion on the subject. Now first off, I do not agree with op, toughness should not ever reduce conditions, conditions exist as a counter to toughness… With that said, I think there is a disparity between the two damage types that has not been brought up in this thread (or i missed it, sorry if so) Its been mentioned that the heavy burst builds have to sacrifice everything to achieve that damage and have nothing left to deal with condi, this is true. But what does one sacrifice to deal top tier condi damage? One single stat. That i think is the problem, if you want max direct damage, you sacrifice 3 stats, All your eq and stats goes to power/prec/critd, if you want max condi damage, all you need is condi leaving you free to build into 2 other stat lines. Because of this, I think condi damage should NEVER be as strong as direct OR if it is, then something needs to be added to make a condi user sacrifice those other 2 stat lines also

You should only need 1 build to beat everything in 1v1 and zerg vs zerg. Hmm… no.

Think it works fine as it is… condition build tend to beat traditional bunkish builds which depend on high toughness, but can be very vulnerable to GC builds which have strong condition removal, because the fact that they have low armour means nothing and they can hit like a truck.

Conditions are ridiculously overpowered atm. So many noobs get carried by them though so I dont think anet is gonna nerf them anytime soon. Necro is probably the worst joke of them all. Any scrub can roll a necro and just spam, dishing out huge numbers while tanking through a nuclear war.

Terrahero.9358:

As for Thieves, when has it ever been a problem for the perma-stealth, highest mobility, teleportspamming profession to get close and do their big burst? I also didnt say 10k+ in 1 hit, but the Cloak n Dagger + Backstab combo which can be done in a fraction of a second can easily go above 10k damage. You dont even have to be all glass for it.
Thieves have, rightly so, received a ton of complains. Stealth being one thing, but burst definatly another. And Thieves of late havent been the only one. Warriors after their buff after buff have now gotten pretty stupidly bursty builds aswell. With enough stuns to guarentee a setup where you can fully unload with little risk of fail. ot to mention burst Mesmers that melt people incredibly fast.

apparently you seem to be oblivious to the fact that thieves either have permastealth and mobility, or have huge burst. one or the other. not both at the same time.

if you think that D/P thief has big burst, you either are playing WvW with level 1 chars, or play naked to save repair bills.

thats the same as if I started complaining about that nasty guardians, that can tank 4 parties alone, hit harder than 100b warriors, stack boons on themselves and conditions on others and remove all of them in a split second…failing to realize that a single build cant do all that at the same time

also, after the constant nerfs to thieves (for example mug and assassin signet), if a thief wants to see >10k in their opener, yes, not only they have to be glass cannon, but also their opponent.

if you have trouble with glass cannon D/D thieves, I’d recomend you to change your zerker setup, its obvious you dont have the skills to play that kind of high risk high reward specs.
go tankier, and I guarantee you that once you survive the thief’s initial burst and hes out of tricks for 60 seconds, he will bail out and try to leave….but hey,regardless what you think, a D/D burst thief that has blown all his cds dont have neither permastealth nor high mobility nor other options to escape. you will kill him as easy as boxing with a 5 year old

Aberrant.6749:

Conds can be better mitigated than direct damage. There is no way for me to mitigate as much direct damage as a single cond clear can do Vs. a long duration burn or a lot of bleed/torment stacks. Then there is 40% duration food, Melandru, traits (on my eng it converts some incomming conditions to boons, my guard passively removes them every 10s etc.)….

Toughness is fine as is as well. You’re not meant to just tank every bit of damage in this game. You need to dodge as well to prevent that damage from even occurring in the first place. This actually opens up more builds by giving classes like guard vigor on crit (crits then become a way to mitigate damage). There are also sigils which can help your survival greatly by refilling your endurance.

This is his answer, trait, rune, sacrifice to mitigate it, because you cant just trait into it like necro’s, Yes necro’s, they are the easiest to point at right now.

Condi’s are not fine, not if you compare it to power based attacks.

Look:

*Melee based attacks, kite
*Range based Condi spam, eat it and mitigate it with your long CD’s, because your not going to be able to kill them anyway.

If you build to mitigate Condi spam, your not going to be able to kill the ranged spammer, thats the difference, the range condi spammers can safely kite you while your trying to close in for attacks that arent going to hit anyway.

Terrahero.9358:

Conditions dont have an unbalanced skirmish/solo play… If that was true people wouldnt have been complaing about Direct-Damage burst builds in skirmish/solo play since launch.
I feel like i have to repeat myself here. Direct damage builds are a far bigger concern in roaming then condition builds. And also work in zergballing, where conditions actually dont due to excessive aoe condition removal.

Not to mention these lovely Hammer Warriors that roam around in a small pack (there you got with that skirmishing) and CC the everliving kitten out of you and your allies.

Perplexity is an issue in and of itself by no means limited to just Engineers. Hammer Warriors are even worst. But even Thieves and Mesmers take generous advantage of the broken mechanic of these runes.

And the “decent builds” you are talking about that deal with direct damage sacrifice everything to deal with it. To the point of carrying zero condition removal. And then turn around that their build doesnt work against conditions.
The problem isnt conditions, the problem if anything is the burst builds. That demand such a dedication to counter them in build and gear that your build is left crippled dealing with something that takes an entirely diffirent approach.

you fail to understand the root of the problem

condition builds are all too powerful. they can bomb power builds in the same or even less time that those can burst them, and can deal with bunker builds FAR better than bursters.

their only counter are condition removal heavy builds…for which of course, the tradeoff is being horrible against burst builds and bunker builds.

hence, barey noone runs condition removal heavy builds, noone wants to be so overspecialized that they win versus one type of players and lose by a landslide against all others.

the current metagame of lolfullzerkerlol is the natural reaction to condition builds. because if you are not using conditions,you are gonna die, period, so might aswell try to kill as many people as possible in the meantime, and with a burst build, skill, and a bit of situational awareness you can rack up quite a few bags before you go down

conditions are the ones that are breaking the balance of the rock-paper-scissors game.
so basically, tone down conditions and instantly you will see a rise of bunkers, followed by less power bursters.

People keep saying that, and yet the “roaming heroes” are all Thieves and Warriors. Outnumbering other professions firmly when it comes to running around picking small fights and skirmishes.

As for the argument “i play a heavy burst class and i need to sacrifice everything for it!”. Well, a condition build doesnt drop someone in 2seconds. Ha, not anywhere close. Even if the condition build sacrifices everything aswell by going full Rampager. Or are you honestly saying that someone stacking just Cond. Damage as a damage stat is dropping people left right and centre?
Because that just doesnt happen. They outlast people, they are essentially a bunker themselves. PTV / CTV, same thing.

As for konrad curvez, really? The current zerker is a reaction? How long have you even been playing this game? Glasscannon’s have been running around since beta. And Thieves in particular never dropped the subject. Whereas conditions are a fairly new cup of tea people are kittening about, which didnt even start untill Necro’s got overbuffed.

Littlefeather.8623:

Aberrant.6749:

Conds can be better mitigated than direct damage. There is no way for me to mitigate as much direct damage as a single cond clear can do Vs. a long duration burn or a lot of bleed/torment stacks. Then there is 40% duration food, Melandru, traits (on my eng it converts some incomming conditions to boons, my guard passively removes them every 10s etc.)….

Toughness is fine as is as well. You’re not meant to just tank every bit of damage in this game. You need to dodge as well to prevent that damage from even occurring in the first place. This actually opens up more builds by giving classes like guard vigor on crit (crits then become a way to mitigate damage). There are also sigils which can help your survival greatly by refilling your endurance.

This is his answer, trait, rune, sacrifice to mitigate it, because you cant just trait into it like necro’s, Yes necro’s, they are the easiest to point at right now.

Condi’s are not fine, not if you compare it to power based attacks.

Look:

Melee based attacks, kite
*Range based Condi spam, eat it and mitigate it with your long CD’s, because your not going to be able to kill them anyway.

If you build to mitigate Condi spam, your not going to be able to kill the ranged spammer, thats the difference, the range condi spammers can safely kite you while your trying to close in for attacks that arent going to hit anyway.

Except that’s an issue of MELEE VS RANGED. Not Melee vs Condition. And in that sense, Ranged will always be overpowered.

Furthermore some classes need condition damage. Look at engineers. Their direct damage is really cruddy, and practically 80% of their weapons apply conditions on a major level, be they hindering conditions of damaging conditions (Grenade kit, bomb kit, Alot of on-Crit effects their traits have) for one example.

And melee weapons in general aren’t very condition based. Proof you ask? I just decided to use two examples; Warrior and Guardian. Looking at their melee options, they have quite a few CC abilities, but only Warrior Swords have a significant amount of Comdition-based damage applications. Engineers don’t have melee weapons. Mesmers don’t either, besides swords, which also have very few conditions (Immob, cripple, vulnerability). On the other hand, the vast majority of their ranged weapons have numerous condition damage sources at disposal.