Guild Wars 2

Terrahero.9358:

As for konrad curvez, really? The current zerker is a reaction? How long have you even been playing this game? Glasscannon’s have been running around since beta. And Thieves in particular never dropped the subject. Whereas conditions are a fairly new cup of tea people are kittening about, which didnt even start untill Necro’s got overbuffed.

I’ve been playing since release, and no, glasscannons werent as prevalent as they are now in WvW.
they were prevalent in thief builds, and perhaps 100b warriors, but thats about it, most people preferred balanced builds. there were plenty of bunkers too.

but then ANet buffed conditions to ludicrous levels, and nowadays everyone and their dog that doesnt go conditions go fullzerker, and bunkers are relegated to organized GvG….and that, just to support their condition spammers.

So OP you want to render condition damage builds completely useless? It’s already bad enough that there is a condi stack cap.

The condi build is just a good counter against low vitality builds…… Having said that, change your build, get better, or stop whining.

The meta right now is mostly condi build in Spvp. It is the best counter against a full zerker build.

Here I will tell you what build you are looking for so you can beat a high condi damage player:

Power Toughness Vitality

Basically any build with high vitality can beat any condi build. Really depends on the player. Maybe if you actually dodged some of the attacks it wouldnt be so bad. Or maybe bring condition removal? Or maybe don’t blow all your skills within the first 5 seconds of the fight.

There are average players, then there are above average players. The players who seem to complain are the one’s below average and legitimately have not tried to better themselves or find a solution. They would rather come on the forums.

Toughness / Armor are horrible.

The fact that you can sacrifice everything in terms of stats to get 3500+ Armor and still have Thieves hitting you for 5-6k, or Eviscerates for 7k+ is ridiculous.

Worst Scaling Stat.

Terrahero.9358:

Littlefeather.8623:

Learn to use your counters at the right time.

Animation: GS Guardian attacks, missed !
Animation: Necro bombs, hit !

You all make small asuras and play classes that have zero to very little casting animations, and say “L2 Dodge” While youre condi bombing classes that have very visible power based animations saying “Ha I see your attack, I haz dodge buttonz”

L2telegraph your skills just like GS Guardians, etc is what I say!

And again, a NECRO issue. They get their undodgeable abilities, because Marks fire of instantly without any warning. And Doom is instant aswell.

Getting kinda sick of these “examples” where conditions are oooh so overpowered, and then its always a necro that does it.

Necro needs toning down, not conditions. Stop trying to nerf every single condition build, including the really kitten ones, just because 1 profession has a build that is a bit out of whack.
By comparison, there is 1 condition build you do not want to run into roaming. Well there are several direct-damage builds that will kitten you up if you run into them while roaming. Direct-damage builds are overall a much bigger issue in WvW then Conditions.

A Thief CnD’s and then backstabs for 10k+ easily in a second, so does this mean we should nerf all the direct damage, even on kittenty builds?

Umm Marks can be dodged through and you wont be hit…

Straegen.2938:

For a thief to do 6k against a hardened target, it requires full glass and perfect execution. For a condi build to do 2k or more per tick, the player can be almost completely bunker. That same thief that hits for 6k can easily be hit for 10k+ and has a low HP pool. Given the same attacker with the same stats a thief can be one shotted:

((806 * 2.4 * 3000) * 3.00) / 1064 = 16382

A thief can put zero point in precision , stacking toughness, power and crt dmg only and still able to crt more than 7k on a tank.
I wonder what can hit a 3k armor thief for 10k? Another thief maybe?
The fact that OP said toughness should mitiage condition shown that he run hidden killer build and want to win all the time.

Konrad Curze.5130:

Terrahero.9358:

As for konrad curvez, really? The current zerker is a reaction? How long have you even been playing this game? Glasscannon’s have been running around since beta. And Thieves in particular never dropped the subject. Whereas conditions are a fairly new cup of tea people are kittening about, which didnt even start untill Necro’s got overbuffed.

I’ve been playing since release, and no, glasscannons werent as prevalent as they are now in WvW.
they were prevalent in thief builds, and perhaps 100b warriors, but thats about it, most people preferred balanced builds. there were plenty of bunkers too.

but then ANet buffed conditions to ludicrous levels, and nowadays everyone and their dog that doesnt go conditions go fullzerker, and bunkers are relegated to organized GvG….and that, just to support their condition spammers.

Way I remember it, zerker builds were extremely popular after release (more than any other time). Then knights became the trend because the extra defense could beat zerkers and toughness is stronger than vit (sustain). Then PvT became the next big thing because full knights is actually not that well optimized particularly in skill lag where you can’t get off your heal. During all this time, condition builds were actually called “unicorns” because of how rare they were.

Now we have a wide mix of every build while certain condition builds may be a bit overpowered after recent buffs. I would still say PVT is the most common build by far for WvW players… Because it’s so good.

Aside from certain possible overbuffing and perplexity issues on some classes, condition damage in general is not overpowered and if anything, has been made more legitimate across the board.

Littlefeather.8623:

Aberrant.6749:

Conds can be better mitigated than direct damage. There is no way for me to mitigate as much direct damage as a single cond clear can do Vs. a long duration burn or a lot of bleed/torment stacks. Then there is 40% duration food, Melandru, traits (on my eng it converts some incomming conditions to boons, my guard passively removes them every 10s etc.)….

Toughness is fine as is as well. You’re not meant to just tank every bit of damage in this game. You need to dodge as well to prevent that damage from even occurring in the first place. This actually opens up more builds by giving classes like guard vigor on crit (crits then become a way to mitigate damage). There are also sigils which can help your survival greatly by refilling your endurance.

This is his answer, trait, rune, sacrifice to mitigate it, because you cant just trait into it like necro’s, Yes necro’s, they are the easiest to point at right now.

Condi’s are not fine, not if you compare it to power based attacks.

Look:

*Melee based attacks, kite
*Range based Condi spam, eat it and mitigate it with your long CD’s, because your not going to be able to kill them anyway.

If you build to mitigate Condi spam, your not going to be able to kill the ranged spammer, thats the difference, the range condi spammers can safely kite you while your trying to close in for attacks that arent going to hit anyway.

You don’t need to fully build to mitigate the cond. Just carry around the -40% duration food. You see some one with cond dmg food, pop one. instant 40% reduction of condition damage. Food has no ICD or anything and you can just swap back to your other food whenever you feel like it.

My mes has no problem killing cond classes when built for direct damage. Neither does my guard. I evade a lot of it with both and carry -40% food and have either a full cond clear or passive constant removal. It doesn’t hurt their ability to kill a non-cond build one little bit. Non-cond damage builds very often use things like immobilize, chill, cripple (etc.) to help keep their target from running (I swear everyone runs in WvW).

Not using ANY of these things and then complaining about condition damage is like walking around without a stunbreak and then complaining that suns are OP.

As Seven Star Stalker pointed out… Comparing ranged to mele and blaming the conds is very poor argument indeed. There is also mele only condition damage btw… that would have made a better comparison to mele dps (just as there is ranged non-cond damage and ranged cond dmg).

I 100% agree with people about the perplexity runes being an issue though… but that doesn’t have to do with any class or conds overall. That’s an item balance issue.

Phantom.8130:

you realize that at 1700 toughness, that’s 85%, yes?

that’ wrong… toughness will never lead you to 100% damage reduction.
Just look on gw2 wiki for some information about “how toughness works” and “how skill damage” is calculated (in this situation is easier since they are conditions).

Also 1700 tougness are around -40/45% damage reduction not 85% (talking about heavy classes) and as you noticed (do you noticed it?) toughness is the only stat which stacks better with few points and lose effectiveness when high traited (over 1800 toughness you need like 50-80 toughness to gain 1% damage reduction).

Anyway to reduce condition damage with toughness will be a really nice idea! This will nerf their power in Hearth of the Mists (in which they are op) but can lead them to punish those who run full zerker (like nabs). Maybe will be a good idea to:
1) sightly increase condition damage
2) make toughness reduce condition damage
3) protection and other stufs for damage reduction can’t reduce condition damage

also this is the wrong section (suggestion is the right one)…

Obscure One.4357:

We need a specific “take less damage from conditions” attribute, but toughness is not that stat for that.

Preferably reducing damage taken from conditions should come from Healing Power and scale around a .0001 coefficient (I.E. 1000 healing power reduces condition damage by 10%). Heavily investing in Healing Power I doubt most classes would be capable of much more than 3k healing power, which would serve as a sort of soft cap of around 30% reduction of condition damage. In terms of balance its the most viable concept as healing power scales the worst out of all stats and could be justified in scaling poorly by also providing reduction of condition damage.

That is a great idea to both fix that trash attribute and the condi meta. Create a thread about it please.
And no, the whole point of conditions is that they aren’t affected by the (same) armor as regular damage. Do you want to be an über-tank?
I bet 10 gold OP isn’t even aware that there are runes and consumables (and some traits) that reduce condition duration. Use that.

Kjeldoran.3849:

Phantom.8130:

you realize that at 1700 toughness, that’s 85%, yes?

that’ wrong… toughness will never lead you to 100% damage reduction.
Just look on gw2 wiki for some information about “how toughness works” and “how skill damage” is calculated (in this situation is easier since they are conditions).

Also 1700 tougness are around -40/45% damage reduction not 85% (talking about heavy classes) and as you noticed (do you noticed it?) toughness is the only stat which stacks better with few points and lose effectiveness when high traited (over 1800 toughness you need like 50-80 toughness to gain 1% damage reduction).

Anyway to reduce condition damage with toughness will be a really nice idea! This will nerf their power in Hearth of the Mists (in which they are op) but can lead them to punish those who run full zerker (like nabs). Maybe will be a good idea to:
1) sightly increase condition damage
2) make toughness reduce condition damage
3) protection and other stufs for damage reduction can’t reduce condition damage

also this is the wrong section (suggestion is the right one)…

The problem is this the whole point of Condition Damage is to bypass Toughness. Toughness is for Direct Damage, Vitality is intended for Condition Damage, so if anything should effect Condi, it should be Vitality. That way we won’t have a Toughness > All situation in defense. The game should be about choosing one or the other, or both at a substancial loss.

TyPin.9860:

And I want thieves not to remove all my conditions during stealth and heal. But that’s not going to happen.

that would make nobody wanna play thieves anymore, they are already pretty squishy as it gets

KOK.2650:

Straegen.2938:

For a thief to do 6k against a hardened target, it requires full glass and perfect execution. For a condi build to do 2k or more per tick, the player can be almost completely bunker. That same thief that hits for 6k can easily be hit for 10k+ and has a low HP pool. Given the same attacker with the same stats a thief can be one shotted:

((806 * 2.4 * 3000) * 3.00) / 1064 = 16382

A thief can put zero point in precision , stacking toughness, power and crt dmg only and still able to crt more than 7k on a tank.
I wonder what can hit a 3k armor thief for 10k? Another thief maybe?
The fact that OP said toughness should mitiage condition shown that he run hidden killer build and want to win all the time.

7k is inrealistic on a tank…

Funny how i read posts and i still get preplexed….

@Cynz.9437, wrong, if the requiremetens are met killshot can hit over 17k on guardian, and im talking hitting guardians with more than 22k hp and 2.3k toughness or a litle bit more.

@OP toughness reducing conditions is bad as it sounds, even if they changed into a system with magic atk /magic def and as the same to conditions.

IMO that could lead to a true gear treadmill (wich here is almost non existent).

Ways to manage direct damage: toughness, vitality (at the start of a fight), dodge, healing, block, stealth, stun, daze, interrupt, blind, chilled, fear, immobilize, weakness and I am sure there are some others I am forgetting.

Ways to manage condi damage: Removal, duration debufs, healing, vitality (at the start of the fight)

No class has enough removal to keep up with multiple targets applying conditions. Some classes do not have enough to keep up with one target. Most do not have enough to keep up with one unless heavily traited/skilled for it. The system was fairly balanced until munchkin condi builds and recent changes were put in.

It may all balance itself out as we all adjust to the new condi dynamic but right now perplexity is at best one of the most powerful runesets in the game and at worst broken.

KOK.2650:

A thief can put zero point in precision , stacking toughness, power and crt dmg only and still able to crt more than 7k on a tank.
I wonder what can hit a 3k armor thief for 10k? Another thief maybe?
The fact that OP said toughness should mitiage condition shown that he run hidden killer build and want to win all the time.

Not on a tank as my math has shown over and over again. High armor targets will rarely see over 5k even from the most glassy thieves in the game without a lot of boons/debufs in the mix.

3k armor thief, he would hit like a wet noodle since everything would need to be poured into toughness but it is the same… armor effects all classes the same.

• Killshot from a fully zerked warrior with crit on 3600 toughness: 9.5k
• BS from a fully zerked thief with crit from behind on 3600 toughness: 4.3k

The only way to get those bigger numbers is to lower toughness or increase power to around 5k or somehow get 150 on crit dmg multiplier. While I suppose it is possible the most likely way is whoever you were fighting was buffed by gods while you were running some serious debuffs.

So the condi spammer who uses foods/runes/traits to maximize condi spam sacrifices nothing, yet power based player with low health pools must sacrifice traits/runes/stats/utilities to try to mitigate condi spam is fair?

seems legit

PS. Vitality > Toughness in GW2

Straegen.2938:

Bailey.6892:

Conditions are fine, they are easy to counter if you want to. Get the proper runes, foods and traits and no problem.

Toughness how ever is not fine and needs a serious boost. Perhaps have the armor sets give a base damage reduction.

Toughness is fine. In a fight every heal is essentially boosted by armor. Toughness also mitigates spike damage. Vitality may be better in the first few seconds of a fight, but once it is gone there is nothing that gets it back. Toughness scales, vitality doesn’t sans condi damage.

Sad and wrong toughness does not counter spike damage. Getting hit for over 6k them 5k 5k spam in less two seconds is not countering spike damage. And healing is not able to keep up let alone over come this sort of damage.

Amins.3710:

Toughness / Armor are horrible.

The fact that you can sacrifice everything in terms of stats to get 3500+ Armor and still have Thieves hitting you for 5-6k, or Eviscerates for 7k+ is ridiculous.

Worst Scaling Stat.

QFT

Littlefeather.8623:

So the condi spammer who uses foods/runes/traits to maximize condi spam sacrifices nothing, yet power based player with low health pools must sacrifice traits/runes/stats/utilities to try to mitigate condi spam is fair?

seems legit

PS. Vitality > Toughness in GW2

Cond builds do need to sacrifice something… usually power or pre.

In the case of not taking pre some classes have on crit procs… they lose those. So they’ll usually take rabid gear instead… and sacrifice vit and power instead.

In the case of not taking power you lose the most in terms of direct damage. This can be really bad if your opponent has good anti-condition abilities. If they take carrion then they lose out on toughness.

Dire loses any meaningful way of doing direct damage. It’s 100% reliant on non-proc condition damage. That’s a large weakness.

You can’t have it all with cond or direct damage despite what people say. You still need to make a choice where you want to be strong and where you want to be weak.

Once again… just carry around -40% condition duration food with you. If you’re getting hit with a lot of conds, then pop it. You don’t need to have it on 24/7. This is the easiest as well as one of the best ways for you to lower condition damage while not sacrificing when not fighting conds.

@ Bailey why are you letting people damage spike you? Use prot/block/invuln/dodge together with high toughness to mitigate the damage and you should be fine (unless you’re getting ganged, then it’s fair that you lose the fight). This isn’t WoW. You’re not supposed to just sit there and take all the damage and rely on your armor.

Summary:

Vitality > Toughness.

I point at condi spammers for context but at the end of the day, HP means much more than Armor, we all know it too. Just double standards that classes that have low HP can not maximize High Armor and stay alive longer than classes with high HP and little to medium armor.

Littlefeather.8623:

Summary:

Vitality > Toughness.

I point at condi spammers for context but at the end of the day, HP means much more than Armor, we all know it too. Just double standards that classes that have low HP can not maximize High Armor and stay alive longer than classes with high HP and little to medium armor.

It really depends on the class and your set up tbh. Guards do well with a lot of armor because it protects their hp… and they have a very large effective health pool (hp + expected hp gains). They also have solid condition removal. There is a lot more that goes into survival than just vit/tough as well.

Kjeldoran.3849:

Phantom.8130:

you realize that at 1700 toughness, that’s 85%, yes?

that’ wrong… toughness will never lead you to 100% damage reduction.
Just look on gw2 wiki for some information about “how toughness works” and “how skill damage” is calculated (in this situation is easier since they are conditions).

Also 1700 tougness are around -40/45% damage reduction not 85% (talking about heavy classes) and as you noticed (do you noticed it?) toughness is the only stat which stacks better with few points and lose effectiveness when high traited (over 1800 toughness you need like 50-80 toughness to gain 1% damage reduction).

Anyway to reduce condition damage with toughness will be a really nice idea! This will nerf their power in Hearth of the Mists (in which they are op) but can lead them to punish those who run full zerker (like nabs). Maybe will be a good idea to:
1) sightly increase condition damage
2) make toughness reduce condition damage
3) protection and other stufs for damage reduction can’t reduce condition damage

also this is the wrong section (suggestion is the right one)…

actually….. if you read the first post, the suggestion was 1% mitigation per every 20 points in toughness. that means 200 points for 10%, and 2,000 points for a full 100%. meaning that at 1700 toughness, the damage reduction as proposed in the first post (which i was clearly responding to, since i was the second post) would be 85%.

it doesn’t matter what the wiki currently says, as the only thing relevant in this thread is the suggestion made at the beginning of it. and, as was already pointed out by a few people already, vitality is the counter to condition damage, toughness is the counter to burst damage. if you want better mitigation against condition damage, more vitality on your gear is the best way to achieve that.

Phantom.8130:

it doesn’t matter what the wiki currently says, as the only thing relevant in this thread is the suggestion made at the beginning of it. and, as was already pointed out by a few people already, vitality is the counter to condition damage, toughness is the counter to burst damage. if you want better mitigation against condition damage, more vitality on your gear is the best way to achieve that.

Well I think most of us agree OP’s idea was terrible. Any % reduction without diminishing returns cannot be balanced no matter what. Any reduction vs everything stat is terrible for balance and should not exist.

Though to qualify what you wrote in terms of basic stats:
Vitality (and to a lesser degree, toughness) is the counter to burst damage.

Toughness and healing power (to a lesser degree) mitigate sustained damage. Of course, for tanky builds almost ALL damage is sustained damage.

And vitality and/or healing power will mitigate condition damage.

It doesn’t make any sense for balance to buff what’s already the strongest defense stat (toughness) and make it a reduction vs everything stat.

More generally, condition damage isn’t overpowered. It’s only a handfull of skills and slightly overpowered (but skill dependent) rune set that’s all the complaints are about.
It makes 0 sense to nerf a whole damage type that has essentially remained unchanged and for a year, remained the least popular set of builds. The complaints are only about a few builds and skills that people may just not have adapted to yet.

Good example being signet of spite: 1 minute cooldown and slow super-obvious animation to dodge. Just, most people don’t recognize to dodge it.

Straegen.2938:

Ways to manage direct damage: toughness, vitality (at the start of a fight), dodge, healing, block, stealth, stun, daze, interrupt, blind, chilled, fear, immobilize, weakness and I am sure there are some others I am forgetting.

Ways to manage condi damage: Removal, duration debufs, healing, vitality (at the start of the fight)

You assume that you can’t hinder condition application by dodging, blocking, stealthing and/or blinding, dazing, interrupting, stunning, fearing and in some cases even immobilizing/chilling your enemy? Good news: you can.

Straegen.2938:

No class has enough removal to keep up with multiple targets applying conditions. Some classes do not have enough to keep up with one target. Most do not have enough to keep up with one unless heavily traited/skilled for it.

Nobody should be able to withstand damage from multiple enemies (direct and/or conds).
Also, you usually can’t keep up against one enemy with high constant power damage unless heavily traited/skilled for it (bunker). That’s perfectly fine in my opinion.

Straegen.2938:

It may all balance itself out as we all adjust to the new condi dynamic but right now perplexity is at best one of the most powerful runesets in the game and at worst broken.

I agree. Perplexity needs a change.

I think what makes people think conditions are op is that their damage is very poorly telegraphed (combined with some poorly telegraphed condition-applying skills like necro scepter AA). Think about it: a Warrior spiking you uses obvious animations, even with Rifle/Bow (projectiles flying towards you).
You instantly see it when you take high direct damage (big numbers, crits), your health drops, immediately making you take counter measures. You don’t have that for conds. You basically get hit by a skill which will drain 2000 hp if the conds tick away but all you see on getting hit is a tiny damage number plus a tiny icon that has a tiny number attached to it which has a tiny effect if this number increases. Most players don’t recognize how hard they just got hit, making them react far too late.

It would be a step in the right direction to have a part of your health bar coloured green representing how much damage you will take from currently applicated conditions on you. Also, getting multiple stacks of e.g. bleeding could have a noticeable on scrren effect (since it’s comparable to receiving a high crit).