Guild Wars 2

This is a personal opinion, but one based on factual data based on my playing time.

Over the last year I have seen many guilds come and go to Stormbluff Isle. I’ve seen players leave for no reason, and others leave in hopes of finding a more “stable” environment, or perhaps better structure. Why this might be the case for servers in higher tiers, I can assure you many of the lower and mid-tier servers have the same problems you might be seeing on your home server.

I have over 200 contacts on my friends list, many of them former members of Stormbluff Isle who have left seeking a better WvW environment. I’ve started to notice these players log on less and less, and even heard they’ve left the game entirely after not finding what they were hoping for.

The flaws of WvW go well behind server structure and environment. Every server will have jerks, drama, and squabbles, some more than others, but the core mechanic forcing people to transfer seems to be the desire for better WvW, more coverage and the desire to win.

Unless you plan on transferring to a high tier server, that has a well-established foundation and proper coverage; chances are you won’t find what you’re looking for.

When you transfer you are giving up your identity, you are essentially giving up all the knowledge your local player base had on you and starting over. People won’t recognize you and they might not even listen to you and soon you will find the same issues that forced you away in the first place.

I’m worried, and I fear that these transfers are the final nail in the coffin for many players. They hope for a solution to a problem, they spend actual cash, or a large sum of gold to hopefully find a solution and when they realize the problem doesn’t lie with the server, but with the mechanics of the game they are finally forced to accept it. Based on the dwindling number of contacts showing up on my friends list I think many of them end up quitting all together and that is not a healthy thing for WvW or Guild Wars 2.

Why are your thoughts on server transfers, do you think they are healthy for the game?

TL;DR: Unless you plan on transferring to a high tier server there is a good chance you won’t find what your looking for. The mechanics of WvW are the underlying reason people transfer, every server has issues, especially low and mid tier servers. If the undying mechanics of WvW are not fixed, people will likely transfer as a last resort before quitting the game entirely.

Agree with everything. People that transfer multiple times for WvW are just looking for an easy win, and that’s not a satisfying reason to play a game = quit.

I agree with a lot of the things you’ve said. The only people I would say this doesn’t apply to is people or guilds who move for fresh fights, GvG or a new environment to roam in. There’s nothing wrong with that, but that just validates your point even further, because those people are not moving in search of a better holistic WvW experience and in a sense have already given up on the intended WvW mechanics.

Disclaimer – I’m someone who has been on SBI since day one. But I gave up on the ‘ppt game’ a few months ago and my WvW experience has been a lot more fun since. That’s probably not the way things are supposed to be.

Pocket.2740:

I agree with a lot of the things you’ve said. The only people I would say this doesn’t apply to is people or guilds who move for fresh fights, GvG or a new environment to roam in. There’s nothing wrong with that, but that just validates your point even further, because those people are not moving in search of a better holistic WvW experience and in a sense have already given up on the intended WvW mechanics.

Disclaimer – I’m someone who has been on SBI since day one. But I gave up on the ‘ppt game’ a few months ago and my WvW experience has been a lot more fun since. That’s probably not the way things are supposed to be.

I think that’s precisely what many guilds and players end up doing when they are forced to play on servers that lack proper coverage. In a sense you know there’s nothing that’s going to prevent an apposing server from de-capping your tier 3 objectives you’ve worked so hard upgrading. If a server has more coverage there’s very little a server with less people can do, no matter how organized you are. (Unless the 3rd server is focusing one server in particular).

People stop worrying about it and focus on features they should be at the front of WvW, which is actually fighting other players in the open field, proving your group or guild is better than the opposing faction where it counts: Tactics, maneuverability, and player skill.

Sadly, it take time for players to realize this, and by the time they do they’ve most likely left their home server, leaving it with fewer WvW players who share the same ideals and goals as you, so you’re left with a smaller group to enjoy the game with.

hmmm interesting…So essentially you are saying that it’s not that WvW is broke (or rather the matchup system) but the players are. That actually makes sense. I can fully agree with that.

But to answer your question, “Are server transfers healthy for the game.” I would have to say that yes, they are. However, just like everything, if it geta abused it can become unhealthy and begin to cause some majr issues. I am glad I was able to transfer servers. I started with a small group of friends in DB, however shortly after I started they ended up quitting, and playing less and less. So I got some of my other friends to play, but they couldn’t get on to DB, so they all joined SBI. (Now this was in the days before megaserver, and guesting). So I hopped over to SBI and been there ever since. I’ve found an awesome guild, and good friends. Now I believe this is what transfering was originally intended for. But as I said, it got abused. I don’t think the match ups and server stacking issues are caused by transfers though. As you said, it’s more the players who are looking for easy wins, or “better” rewards.

pdavis.8031:

hmmm interesting…So essentially you are saying that it’s not that WvW is broke (or rather the matchup system) but the players are. That actually makes sense. I can fully agree with that.

But to answer your question, “Are server transfers healthy for the game.” I would have to say that yes, they are. However, just like everything, if it geta abused it can become unhealthy and begin to cause some majr issues. I am glad I was able to transfer servers. I started with a small group of friends in DB, however shortly after I started they ended up quitting, and playing less and less. So I got some of my other friends to play, but they couldn’t get on to DB, so they all joined SBI. (Now this was in the days before megaserver, and guesting). So I hopped over to SBI and been there ever since. I’ve found an awesome guild, and good friends. Now I believe this is what transfering was originally intended for. But as I said, it got abused. I don’t think the match ups and server stacking issues are caused by transfers though. As you said, it’s more the players who are looking for easy wins, or “better” rewards.

I’m certainly not saying WvW is not broken. It is flawed in it’s core mechanics (PPT and Coverage). What I’m suggesting is these mechanics force players to leave a server in hopes of fixing them, when the only way to fix these problems it to play on a high tier server that has coverage and a good foundation.

Server transfers prevent many servers from establishing a solid foundation needed to compete in WvW. Without a proper, broad based WvW community a server has no chance in rising in tiers or attracting new players to their server. People get frustrated, get tired of trying to fix problems and look for an easy solution, which currently means transferring to a “better” server. If they don’t find what they like, which in my experience many don’t, they end up quitting the game.

In my opinion transfers are largely the result of players seeking a solution to flawed WvW mechanics, I believe they are currently causing more problems for lower and mid tier servers and do more harm to the community and player base than good.

Keep in mind I’m discussing players leaving for the purpose of finding a better WvW environment, not leaving for the desire to play with friends, or join a better guild.

grifflyman.8102:

pdavis.8031:

hmmm interesting…So essentially you are saying that it’s not that WvW is broke (or rather the matchup system) but the players are. That actually makes sense. I can fully agree with that.

But to answer your question, “Are server transfers healthy for the game.” I would have to say that yes, they are. However, just like everything, if it geta abused it can become unhealthy and begin to cause some majr issues. I am glad I was able to transfer servers. I started with a small group of friends in DB, however shortly after I started they ended up quitting, and playing less and less. So I got some of my other friends to play, but they couldn’t get on to DB, so they all joined SBI. (Now this was in the days before megaserver, and guesting). So I hopped over to SBI and been there ever since. I’ve found an awesome guild, and good friends. Now I believe this is what transfering was originally intended for. But as I said, it got abused. I don’t think the match ups and server stacking issues are caused by transfers though. As you said, it’s more the players who are looking for easy wins, or “better” rewards.

I’m certainly not saying WvW is not broken. It is flawed in it’s core mechanics (PPT and Coverage). What I’m suggesting is these mechanics force players to leave a server in hopes of fixing them, when the only way to fix these problems it to play on a high tier server that has coverage and a good foundation.

Server transfers prevent many servers from establishing a solid foundation needed to compete in WvW. Without a proper, broad based WvW community a server has no chance in rising in tiers or attracting new players to their server. People get frustrated, get tired of trying to fix problems and look for an easy solution, which currently means transferring to a “better” server. If they don’t find what they like, which in my experience many don’t, they end up quitting the game.

In my opinion transfers are largely the result of players seeking a solution to flawed WvW mechanics, I believe they are currently causing more problems for lower and mid tier servers and do more harm to the community and player base than good.

Keep in mind I’m discussing players leaving for the purpose of finding a better WvW environment, not leaving for the desire to play with friends, or join a better guild.

Oh yes, I agree, maybe I didn’t make it clear. Yes WvW (in respect to PPT and coverage)is most definitely broken, and as you stated, the reason people leave. But again, I feel that it’s not the transfers that are causing the problem. Its the people. Lets say YB has such good coverage, that SBI and IOJ feel that anything they do is so utterly worthless, they transfer to YB. So what just happened? The players that felt such a large imbalance in population, created a bigger imbalance in population. Is that the fault of being able to transfer? Or the players who felt the only way to “win” was to join the “enemy”?

So what solution is there to retain players on a patricular server? Stopping transfers I feel would only cause those players to either stop playing WvW or quit the game altogether. There needs to be either a change in how the scoring system works (as in this thread: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/wuv/wuv/Scoring-Discussion/page/7#post4488556) or more incentives to stay with your server. Give the players a reason to stay with SBI or IOJ (or whatever) and they won’t have a reason to leave. This would also include how the rewards for WvW work. From what I understand people want to transfer to a “winning” server for “better” fights. But with “better” fights, comes better rewards (i.e more loot bags and badges from wiping enemy zergs).

Until the whole rewards/scoring systems changed for WvW, you’ll always have the problem of “fair weather” players/guilds jumping ship when they see that they can get more and better stuff from transferring

Transfers needs to be free again. The WvW mode is at a point of being very close to the state of Guild Wars 1 Alliance Battles, “DEAD”. Unless Anet allows free transfers to help balance the game some, many will leave the game for AA.

A server loyalty buff would be a helpful way to prevent transfers. Maybe some kind of bonus the longer you stay on a server that caps at 3 months time?

grifflyman.8102:

A server loyalty buff would be a helpful way to prevent transfers. Maybe some kind of bonus the longer you stay on a server that caps at 3 months time?

3 months would be bogus for showing any loyalty. Make it at least 1 1/2 years or greater.

grifflyman.8102:

A server loyalty buff would be a helpful way to prevent transfers. Maybe some kind of bonus the longer you stay on a server that caps at 3 months time?

A loyalty buff would be a great idea. Regardless of how long till it becomes active, maybe also have it grant bonuses based on how those servers tend to play. (ex. DB is more about zerg fights, so they get a bonus to WvW exp for player kills, while SoS is more about capping and holding keeps/towers so they get bonus WvW exp for successful defense events) Although that may be a bit difficult to implement, as servers perferred play styles will change, as the “older” generation of WvWers moves on, and a “younger” one comes up. But either way, having a decent loyalty bonus to enourage players/guilds to stay I think would go VERY far in helping population balance.

Ironically, I just transferred to stormbluff (leaving a lousy server behind.) However I agree that transfering is a temporary solution at best for most people, largely because people transfer for numerous reasons but there’s only one thing held constant. Wvw: no matter what server you’re on I might see you at teq tonight, I can still join your guild, and I can still run dungeons with you. (World events, social aspects, and PvE) However if I’m still willing to pay for a server transfer when all of that is readily available I must be an active wvwer.
Unfortunately with the lack of care (or change in general if we assume anet does care) we’ve been shown over the years wvw is starting to lose its edge.

Transferring for a change of scenery delays the inevitable, the game is broken. I’m sure many contacts lists are greying out these days thanks to Season 3 and the release of another hyped MMO.

grifflyman.8102:

…

Keep in mind I’m discussing players leaving for the purpose of finding a better WvW environment, not leaving for the desire to play with friends,….

Then my situation is an intersection of these. I joined my (former)guild on BP after they came from NSP, we decided on a then T2 TC because we raided late and were stuck in PvDoor matches, raids got boring and short. Transferring had to happen, some buff wouldn’t have made us stay when all we wanted was fun and regular fights. It’s been months since I kept track of who wins the week, I’ve met new people and learned new things, I’m not here to be some quasi-celebrity so I don’t feel like I’ve lost anything, actually I feel like I’ve gained. If I couldn’t transfer, I would’ve been done with GW2 sooner, I don’t care enough about an arbitrary thing such as the performance of game server to make such sacrifices for it. Yes, whether it’s a trickle or a mass departure, transfers can hit PPT a blow but since I don’t use PPT as a gauge for a good time, I’m inclined to be in favor of transfers because it keeps people playing—wherever they decide to play.

Transferring to Kaineng will

It’s worse than that. Every time you transfer you are rewarding anet for their lack of changes to address the reason why you want to transfer in the first place.

scerevisiae.1972:

It’s worse than that. Every time you transfer you are rewarding anet for their lack of changes to address the reason why you want to transfer in the first place.

While this might have been the case I believe Anet has the numbers to support the theory that WvW is not currently holding the popularity and numbers it used to have.

There are two things going on here, one is a businesses model and the other is game design.

It’s time Anet focuses on game design and accept they earned a pretty penny for transfers in the past.

I’m not sure that a focus on game design is a good thing.

If they look really closely, they might just conclude that PvE and SPvP are good investments, while WvW is a waste of time for everyone involved.

Living World and new dungeons keep PvE players interested. PvE players spend money on gems. meanwhile, SPvP is ArenaNet’s foot in the door into eSports, and as long as that looks like it could be big they need to maintain their presence there.

but how profitable are the WvW players, really? it may be a fun game mode but I’m not really seeing how it’s making a lot of money for them. as long as WvW doesn’t cost much they might as well leave it in, after all what’s not to like about having another game mode? but I really don’t see where they have any incentive to invest a lot of resources in it.

what could they add to WvW that we would be willing to pay for? and that wouldn’t horribly unbalance things for servers whose players are less willing to pay?

-ken

pdavis.8031:

hmmm interesting…So essentially you are saying that it’s not that WvW is broke (or rather the matchup system) but the players are. That actually makes sense. I can fully agree with that.

But to answer your question, “Are server transfers healthy for the game.” I would have to say that yes, they are. However, just like everything, if it geta abused it can become unhealthy and begin to cause some majr issues. I am glad I was able to transfer servers. I started with a small group of friends in DB, however shortly after I started they ended up quitting, and playing less and less. So I got some of my other friends to play, but they couldn’t get on to DB, so they all joined SBI. (Now this was in the days before megaserver, and guesting). So I hopped over to SBI and been there ever since. I’ve found an awesome guild, and good friends. Now I believe this is what transfering was originally intended for. But as I said, it got abused. I don’t think the match ups and server stacking issues are caused by transfers though. As you said, it’s more the players who are looking for easy wins, or “better” rewards.

The problem isn’t transfers. It wasn’t really a problem till S2 hit.
Anet broke WvW in a way it won’t ever recover without Anet’s intervention with S2, and the free/low cost transfers for ultra stacked servers, wich meant allowing already stacked servers to be stacked more, meaning the less stacked couldn’t get the players they needed, the low ranked ones lost a lot of players, and reached the stage where basically, if you don’t play during prime time, you don’t belong anymore (because PvD is funny a couple of hours, not all your play time long, all week long, for months, where you have so little fun moments you can name them all over a 3months period outside prime time (and i’m large with primetime, basically it’s 18 to 00 UK time in EU)).

They did it again with the reduction of transfers price post S3. Most of the ultrastacked servers are open again for transfers, with a cost that is the same/less than half the bottom 6 servers, and there is no logic behind it, since it’s still only PvE population making that population (oh and i doubt overnight, all the ultrahigh/full pop servers became very high/high/medium at the same moment.. it’s Anet manipulating pop lvls for transfers prices to milk players that are basically forced to move to compensate for Anet’s HUGE failures).

There is part of truth in what the op says. Yes lots of players moving don’t realize what it entice (ie : you are moving to a new place, and will be forced to rebuild relationships, reputation and such, and it’s hard, and takes time), but the problem isn’t “only” with the WvW state.
It’s just that a good chunk of the players transfering do so as a last chance type of move, and when they get to their new home, they realize the game isn’t worth putting in that sort of effort/work torebuild what you lost.

It’s like in every game, it’s people/relationships/efriends that keeps people playing (that’s how WoW kept that many players for that long, most of them stayed for their friends, and numbers started dropping a lot once the exodus of people organizing guilds/with an e-rep that gave “cohesion” left, like in any other MMO).

It’s not the transfers that are the problem, they are just a symptom, and most of the people transfering now aren’t there for an easy win (unless they are the ones moving to the few ultrastacked servers in their tiers that basically have a free win all the time, like BG/SFR), most are trying to find again what they miss, and the activity they liked, but they can’t force themselves to redo the work they put in 1-2+ years ago.

Guilds moving, is usually something else, specially if they don’t move alone (if it’s not bandwagooning to it’s finest, usually around season, it usually works quite well and they stay, because erep comes faster, and players are in a “familiar” environement of sort while discovering new people).

Snowreap.5174:

I’m not sure that a focus on game design is a good thing.

If they look really closely, they might just conclude that PvE and SPvP are good investments, while WvW is a waste of time for everyone involved.

Living World and new dungeons keep PvE players interested. PvE players spend money on gems. meanwhile, SPvP is ArenaNet’s foot in the door into eSports, and as long as that looks like it could be big they need to maintain their presence there.

but how profitable are the WvW players, really? it may be a fun game mode but I’m not really seeing how it’s making a lot of money for them. as long as WvW doesn’t cost much they might as well leave it in, after all what’s not to like about having another game mode? but I really don’t see where they have any incentive to invest a lot of resources in it.

what could they add to WvW that we would be willing to pay for? and that wouldn’t horribly unbalance things for servers whose players are less willing to pay?

-ken

WvW players spend the same money (or more) on the game than others.
They are skin kitten and fashion victims too (just take a look around in WvW everytime a new BL weapon skin happens…. it’s around all the time. Same for BL Ticket skins, same for outfits and such).

They are buying the bronze/silver salvagers as much as others, minis and dyes too, appearance kits (when the Dbz hairs were released basically 30/40% of the WvW players jumped on it. Same with the purple hairs before, pretty much all commanders became White Charrs with Purple Hairs for a time).
And so on and so on.
Except they buy finishers too (that PvE players don’t) and so on.
The whole “WvW players don’t buy gems” is a total lie and fallacy, they buy as much as “regular” players do, and you see it everyday in WvW.

when talking profit for wvw players… one word… “Primers.” Lots use them. I would buy them occasionally if they were slightly cheaper and didn’t fall off constantly.

maybe just a server thing. I don’t see a lot of people with skins (or maybe I just don’t notice) and all the enemies look the same to me.

I forgot about the finishers though, good call. I retract my “wvw players don’t buy gems” claim.

-ken

Snowreap.5174:

maybe just a server thing. I don’t see a lot of people with skins (or maybe I just don’t notice) and all the enemies look the same to me.

I forgot about the finishers though, good call. I retract my “wvw players don’t buy gems” claim.

-ken

Change your display settings not to display friends and ennemies in WvW colors, put higher resolution in your settings and not everything will look the same, and you’ll see the people using skins.

When they released chaos skins basically 50% of the players on my (low tier) server were using one (staf, gs or hammer mostly).

WvW players are as much fashion victims than others.

Same thing, move with a group, and look up nodes. You’ll see all the animated harvesters from the gem store more often than not.

Filovirus.6258:

pdavis.8031:

hmmm interesting…So essentially you are saying that it’s not that WvW is broke (or rather the matchup system) but the players are. That actually makes sense. I can fully agree with that.

But to answer your question, “Are server transfers healthy for the game.” I would have to say that yes, they are. However, just like everything, if it geta abused it can become unhealthy and begin to cause some majr issues. I am glad I was able to transfer servers. I started with a small group of friends in DB, however shortly after I started they ended up quitting, and playing less and less. So I got some of my other friends to play, but they couldn’t get on to DB, so they all joined SBI. (Now this was in the days before megaserver, and guesting). So I hopped over to SBI and been there ever since. I’ve found an awesome guild, and good friends. Now I believe this is what transfering was originally intended for. But as I said, it got abused. I don’t think the match ups and server stacking issues are caused by transfers though. As you said, it’s more the players who are looking for easy wins, or “better” rewards.

The problem isn’t transfers. It wasn’t really a problem till S2 hit.
Anet broke WvW in a way it won’t ever recover without Anet’s intervention with S2, and the free/low cost transfers for ultra stacked servers, wich meant allowing already stacked servers to be stacked more, meaning the less stacked couldn’t get the players they needed, the low ranked ones lost a lot of players, and reached the stage where basically, if you don’t play during prime time, you don’t belong anymore (because PvD is funny a couple of hours, not all your play time long, all week long, for months, where you have so little fun moments you can name them all over a 3months period outside prime time (and i’m large with primetime, basically it’s 18 to 00 UK time in EU)).

They did it again with the reduction of transfers price post S3. Most of the ultrastacked servers are open again for transfers, with a cost that is the same/less than half the bottom 6 servers, and there is no logic behind it, since it’s still only PvE population making that population (oh and i doubt overnight, all the ultrahigh/full pop servers became very high/high/medium at the same moment.. it’s Anet manipulating pop lvls for transfers prices to milk players that are basically forced to move to compensate for Anet’s HUGE failures).

There is part of truth in what the op says. Yes lots of players moving don’t realize what it entice (ie : you are moving to a new place, and will be forced to rebuild relationships, reputation and such, and it’s hard, and takes time), but the problem isn’t “only” with the WvW state.
It’s just that a good chunk of the players transfering do so as a last chance type of move, and when they get to their new home, they realize the game isn’t worth putting in that sort of effort/work torebuild what you lost.

It’s like in every game, it’s people/relationships/efriends that keeps people playing (that’s how WoW kept that many players for that long, most of them stayed for their friends, and numbers started dropping a lot once the exodus of people organizing guilds/with an e-rep that gave “cohesion” left, like in any other MMO).

It’s not the transfers that are the problem, they are just a symptom, and most of the people transfering now aren’t there for an easy win (unless they are the ones moving to the few ultrastacked servers in their tiers that basically have a free win all the time, like BG/SFR), most are trying to find again what they miss, and the activity they liked, but they can’t force themselves to redo the work they put in 1-2+ years ago.

Guilds moving, is usually something else, specially if they don’t move alone (if it’s not bandwagooning to it’s finest, usually around season, it usually works quite well and they stay, because erep comes faster, and players are in a “familiar” environement of sort while discovering new people).

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

I agree on what you said, but as someone who transfers alot to find the fights I also have to disagree…

While every community is essentially the same, the fights and the people you fight will always be different everytime you change servers…

I have been GoM>FA>GoM>IOJ>GoM>CD>IOJ and will most likely transfer again if IOJ leaves silver league.

Fluffball.8307:

Agree with everything. People that transfer multiple times for WvW are just looking for an easy win, and that’s not a satisfying reason to play a game = quit.

I agree with the OP as well for the most part, but it’s not entirely true that everyone transfers for an easy win. At one point, I bounced around to several servers, looking for a fun community until I finally found one on a T3/T4 RP server called Tarnished Coast been here for more than 2 years now