Guild Wars 2

Chips.7968:

Right – read your posts again kitten . You claim thieves should “run away to drop traps away from anyone in order to stay in stealth”.

Then when I point out that you’re now saying thieves should use an offensive weapon only to ‘stay in stealth’ which is fricken dumb as they’ve far better alternatives which won’t risk revealing them.

Chips brah you’re missing the point. This is exactly how trap runes work on the other classes and it is effective (at least it was for rangers until the nerf.. there is mounds of video evidence to support this).

You don’t use the traps purely for defense either… you use them offensively when the opportunity to do so arises and this creates strategy and risk vs. reward.

I know you don’t want a thief nerf, and nobody is saying trapper thief needs a nerf but good lord permanent stealth is kittening kittenedly broken whether it is OP or not and needs to be fixed. The only way to do that without simultaneously nerfing two other classes that are not even remotely OP is to revert the changes to thief traps. if they need to buff the traps to counter this then they can go ahead and do it and nobody will give a flying kitten.

the issue is 100% stealth uptime, not the power of the traps.

Did I ever tell you the story about how I invented Superior Runes of the Trapper?

“Once Upon a Time, there was a Ranger Collaborative Development thread, and I suggested Superior Runes of the Trapper, with Condition Damage, Condition Duration, and Stealth.”

“The End.”

I use them more on my thief than on my ranger, but I don’t do this perma-ghost business. I pop right back out with the pistol’s bleeding stealth attack.

Offair.2563:

A while ago Anet changed the thief a bit so they couldnt have access to the ridicilous perma stealth. Then they revamped the trapper runes so they wont reveal anymore when enemies trigger the traps. Do you guys at Anet’s office ever took thief trap in account when making this change? Apparantly not because the stealth now is even more ridicilous then it was ever before.

You can consider this post as a rant one and i am not asking for a thief nerf, but a revert/removal of these trapper runes. Why arent they allowed in Spvp? Cause it would make players going /sigh there? Why are they allowed in WvW then.

I’ll call for a nerf for you

I think its too powerful. I just watched a trapper/stealth/condi thief take down 4 experienced, decently equipped level 80 players in WvW.

I can see 1. I can see them taking down 2; under ideal conditions, 3, but 4… That pretty much tears it.

I’m seeing it also in havoc groups, even zergs – thief/engi/mesmer classes dominate. In groups; unless opposed by similar, any other classes fighting them are pretty much just so many loot bags.

Suggestion to the devs; give your tanks some better counters for this stuff, or you’ll find people will stop playing them.

jdallen.5179:

I’ll call for a nerf for you

I think its too powerful. I just watched a trapper/stealth/condi thief take down 4 experienced, decently equipped level 80 players in WvW.

I’m a platinum rank who lost against a guardian, assaulter rank, today – I think we should tone down guardian as I’m clearly very experienced.

(There’s actually some truth behind it, I’d just like to point out that we’re in the brainless passive buff meta and that people usually think they’re experienced – a friend sent me a youtube video of someone playing a shooter with modified toasters today and my answer was: “And GW2 is currently played by toasters pretending to be humans”.)

I think you can kind of boil down the discussion to a simple yes or no to a very simple question.

Should you ever be able to kill someone without ever leaving stealth or any indicators you were there?

apharma.3741:

I think you can kind of boil down the discussion to a simple yes or no to a very simple question.

Should you ever be able to kill someone without ever leaving stealth or any indicators you were there?

Counterquestion: There’s enough classes who are basically invulnerable throughout the fight – should that be?

Jana.6831:

apharma.3741:

I think you can kind of boil down the discussion to a simple yes or no to a very simple question.

Should you ever be able to kill someone without ever leaving stealth or any indicators you were there?

Counterquestion: There’s enough classes who are basically invulnerable throughout the fight – should that be?

show me a class that can keep up permanent invulnerability

I don’t think this should be nerfed thieves work in the shadows and should never be visible or killable. When i play this game I don’t want to die so I play this build it’s easy.

Jana.6831:

apharma.3741:

I think you can kind of boil down the discussion to a simple yes or no to a very simple question.

Should you ever be able to kill someone without ever leaving stealth or any indicators you were there?

Counterquestion: There’s enough classes who are basically invulnerable throughout the fight – should that be?

Please link me any build that can realistically be invulnerable for an entire fight that isn’t over in less than 10s, which also isn’t sat there essentially doing nothing while invulnerable.

apharma.3741:

Jana.6831:

apharma.3741:

I think you can kind of boil down the discussion to a simple yes or no to a very simple question.

Should you ever be able to kill someone without ever leaving stealth or any indicators you were there?

Counterquestion: There’s enough classes who are basically invulnerable throughout the fight – should that be?

Please link me any build that can realistically be invulnerable for an entire fight that isn’t over in less than 10s, which also isn’t sat there essentially doing nothing while invulnerable.

Guards, warriors, rangers and mesmers have got more than one invulnerability and they can hit while they’re at it.
Didn’t get the rest of your post, do you mean perma stealthed thieves (who aren’t invulnerable) do nothing while sitting in stealth or do you mean all other classes can’t do anything while being invulnerable?

ETA: I’m no fan of the runes or the build either- but I’m against the never stopping “NERF THIEVES!!!!!!!!!!111”

Jana.6831:

apharma.3741:

Jana.6831:

apharma.3741:

I think you can kind of boil down the discussion to a simple yes or no to a very simple question.

Should you ever be able to kill someone without ever leaving stealth or any indicators you were there?

Counterquestion: There’s enough classes who are basically invulnerable throughout the fight – should that be?

Please link me any build that can realistically be invulnerable for an entire fight that isn’t over in less than 10s, which also isn’t sat there essentially doing nothing while invulnerable.

Guards, warriors, rangers and mesmers have got more than one invulnerability and they can hit while they’re at it.
Didn’t get the rest of your post, do you mean perma stealthed thieves (who aren’t invulnerable) do nothing while sitting in stealth or do you mean all other classes can’t do anything while being invulnerable?

ETA: I’m no fan of the runes or the build either- but I’m against the never stopping “NERF THIEVES!!!!!!!!!!111”

You said, invulnerable throughout the fight, I asked for builds. I then stipulated the fight has to
1. Last over 10s and
2. The invulnerable person has to be able to essentially do more than either cast, be casting or stuck unable to attack. Essentially be some form of threat.

Jana.6831:

jdallen.5179:

I’ll call for a nerf for you

I think its too powerful. I just watched a trapper/stealth/condi thief take down 4 experienced, decently equipped level 80 players in WvW.

I’m a platinum rank who lost against a guardian, assaulter rank, today – I think we should tone down guardian as I’m clearly very experienced.

(There’s actually some truth behind it, I’d just like to point out that we’re in the brainless passive buff meta and that people usually think they’re experienced – a friend sent me a youtube video of someone playing a shooter with modified toasters today and my answer was: “And GW2 is currently played by toasters pretending to be humans”.)

Rank isn’t material except as an indication of time in grade; lower levels beat me down as well. That said, don’t take it personally, and if you think other classes have aspects which are overpowered, lay them out.

My point about experience is not an appeal to authority, it’s an effort to describe conditions.

I’ll pose this question to you, as you understand how to run a thief; what would you expect the outcome to be if you faced off against 4 other players from different classes, with comparable gear and gameplay expertise?

The thief we faced beat us easily and was obviously confident of the outcome. I’ve never seen that done by another class.

How can you do that?

1v1 or even 1v2, I’m fine with being handed my head by a thief who is well played (heck, even just average…) and geared. This isnt something I’ll get worked up about. But 1v4? 1v5? I’d like to see your explanation for how that is a normal outcome, rather than suggestive of an imbalance in the mechanics.

apharma.3741:

You said, invulnerable throughout the fight, I asked for builds. I then stipulated the fight has to
1. Last over 10s and
2. The invulnerable person has to be able to essentially do more than either cast, be casting or stuck unable to attack. Essentially be some form of threat.

Then read again what I said before you start to put words into my mouth =)

@Jd:

When meeting a trapper thief, I aoe the area around me, build a stealth trap or just go away, depending on the situation, if he’s a threat to my camp/tower/ keep, I will try to kill him and I will kill him.
Most classes in this game are currently beyond brainless, they can go full zerkers and still have 70% uptime on their passive and active damage migations – I don’t like the game like it currently is and I think trapper thief just fits into this meta. If anet is going to nerf trapper thief they better nerf all other classes as well.

Edit: Punctuation

100% stealth uptime is brainless and carries bad players. Deal with it

Jana.6831:

apharma.3741:

You said, invulnerable throughout the fight, I asked for builds. I then stipulated the fight has to
1. Last over 10s and
2. The invulnerable person has to be able to essentially do more than either cast, be casting or stuck unable to attack. Essentially be some form of threat.

Then read again what I said before you start to put words into my mouth =)

@Jd:

When meeting a trapper thief, I aoe the area around me, build a stealth trap or just go away, depending on the situation, if he’s a threat to my camp/tower/ keep, I will try to kill him and I will kill him.
Most classes in this game are currently beyond brainless, they can go full zerkers and still have 70% uptime on their passive and active damage migations – I don’t like the game like it currently is and I think trapper thief just fits into this meta. If anet is going to nerf trapper thief they better nerf all other classes as well.

Edit: Punctuation

With respect, jana, you answered a different question; we were doing what you were suggesting.

The question I actually asked was, how does a trapper thief kill 4 or 5 PC’s, given parity in player skill and equipment? What do they equip? What skills do they use? How do they sequence them?

That should highlight either what’s broken, or how to counter it.

jdallen.5179:

With respect, jana, you answered a different question; we were doing what you were suggesting.

The question I actually asked was, how does a trapper thief kill 4 or 5 PC’s, given parity in player skill and equipment? What do they equip? What skills do they use? How do they sequence them?

That should highlight either what’s broken, or how to counter it.

AoE skills, every class has them, use them. Dodge, also every class is able to do that, cleanse condis, yet again every class can do that.
In short: Think (not everybody can do that)

Jana.6831:

jdallen.5179:

With respect, jana, you answered a different question; we were doing what you were suggesting.

The question I actually asked was, how does a trapper thief kill 4 or 5 PC’s, given parity in player skill and equipment? What do they equip? What skills do they use? How do they sequence them?

That should highlight either what’s broken, or how to counter it.

AoE skills, every class has them, use them. Dodge, also every class is able to do that, cleanse condis, yet again every class can do that.
In short: Think (not everybody can do that)

Yeah guys, just aoe down the full dire thief. It’s not like you are guessing his location since he has super speed or teleports to escape and reset the fight while fully stealthed…

I think that this has gone 5 pages with no dev response says something – no change. Frankly, I’m glad. This thief build is a one trick pony (much like a distracting strikes warrior or der… perplexity engi). It’s a little l2p and a little wait it out. These sort of builds are intrinsically boring, and people will tire of them quickly.

… iam realising that you guys who are complaining about stealth thiefs are just to lazy to use anti stealth traps and skills…

If your class has not any chance to reveal a perma stealth thief, go get some anti stealth traps. Or joint with a class that can reveal stealth ( more Classes are able to do that in HoT)…

Now stop ranting about permastealth thief, go and build a build that has CONDITION removal in it. Use it and stop beeing a crybaby.

Anet has already done something against it long ago and even added with HoT more options exactly for this situation.

Puck.9612:

Jana.6831:

jdallen.5179:

With respect, jana, you answered a different question; we were doing what you were suggesting.

The question I actually asked was, how does a trapper thief kill 4 or 5 PC’s, given parity in player skill and equipment? What do they equip? What skills do they use? How do they sequence them?

That should highlight either what’s broken, or how to counter it.

AoE skills, every class has them, use them. Dodge, also every class is able to do that, cleanse condis, yet again every class can do that.
In short: Think (not everybody can do that)

Yeah guys, just aoe down the full dire thief. It’s not like you are guessing his location since he has super speed or teleports to escape and reset the fight while fully stealthed…

Going to have to agree somewhat. Even if you know his location if he himself isn’t braindead he should be able to survive almost anything.

I frontline glass cannon thief without any defensive traits or abilities in 40v40 and usually come out alive. I have been asked by commanders in server chat/TS how I stay alive and have been frequently used as an engage signal for the rest of the blob to follow after I am first to dive in. I quit solo roaming recently because it become a matter of extremely cheesy and unfun build decisions and frankly, I think D/P and SA are extremely boring, passive, and easy ways to play the thief and the game itself.

If people die playing dire thief to any extent in anything less than 25 people, or mesmer, they are straight bad.

DeceiverX.8361:

Going to have to agree somewhat. Even if you know his location if he himself isn’t braindead he should be able to survive almost anything.

I frontline glass cannon thief without any defensive traits or abilities in 40v40 and usually come out alive. I have been asked by commanders in server chat/TS how I stay alive and have been frequently used as an engage signal for the rest of the blob to follow after I am first to dive in. I quit solo roaming recently because it become a matter of extremely cheesy and unfun build decisions and frankly, I think D/P and SA are extremely boring, passive, and easy ways to play the thief and the game itself.

If people die playing dire thief to any extent in anything less than 25 people, or mesmer, they are straight bad.

I still kill dire thieves, although it’s easier to do it with a stealth trap, yes, but 4 experienced people should be able to kill them.

Not sure what your zerg experience has to do with it, but I’m doing the same actually – you have to know how the zergs will move and I don’t know how I can tell, experience or instinct, no idea. Guess it’s the same with D/D as well, there’s not much time to think.

Ripkord.8567:

… iam realising that you guys who are complaining about stealth thiefs are just to lazy to use anti stealth traps and skills…

If your class has not any chance to reveal a perma stealth thief, go get some anti stealth traps. Or joint with a class that can reveal stealth ( more Classes are able to do that in HoT)…

Now stop ranting about permastealth thief, go and build a build that has CONDITION removal in it. Use it and stop beeing a crybaby.

Anet has already done something against it long ago and even added with HoT more options exactly for this situation.

We’ve already been over stealth traps, L2Read.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Puck they may not have access to a reveal skill but they do to Stealth Disruptor, which was put in so all classes have access to reveal, there’s also pressuring the Black Powder field, there are ways to counter this hell even if your run condi cleanse the thief will have alot harder time to kill you, but people don’t want to do this, they say it’s an inconvenience and that there are better options for utilities or traits and items to use, well if you are dying to trapper thief that easy those aren’t better options for you.

yes it’s a gimmicky build yes it has counters to it, yes Anet knew what they were doing before making the changes to thief traps, actually use the advice to counter it and it won’t be an issue, but I hope it brings attention to The state of the thief and get Anet to redesign the class so it gets fixed so gimmicky builds like this don’t pop up.

Stealth traps have something like a 4 second activation time. If you are actively fighting someone and they squat in place for 4 seconds you should either have them killed in that time, or have the sense to realize they just set a trap and you shouldn’t step on it.

Puck.9612:

babazhook.6805:

Trapper runes have LITTLE to do with this. The bulk of stealth comes off d/p . Setting a trap using runes gives at most 4 seconds stealth.

That is NOT permanent. If a thief sets a trap 3 seconds later he is revealed unless he traits SA where he revealed after 4 seconds.

This whether the trap triggered or not.I get longer stealth on my mesmer using decoy as my zerker lays on far more damage then a trap ever will.

This issue has little to nothing to do with trappers runes. It is using trap in conjunction with d/p and using HS in a smoke field.

In short this another anti-stealth argument. Use reveal skills.

We aren’t all engi’s with Lock On.
I main a ranger, I need to be able to see the person to put reveal on them and these thieves can remain in stealth the entire fight. Every other profession doesn’t have a reveal skill.

This might be the most ridiculous argument I have seen on the forums… How the hell is anyone defending this?

One more time . No one can stay in stealth because of trappers runes. They give 3 (4 if traited in SA) seconds of stealth on setting a trap. After that three seconds whether the trap triggered or not the person is revealed.

A theif gets the same amount of stealth off blinding powder or hide in shadows.

The lowest cooldown one can get on a trap is 24 seconds on needle/tripwire. Setting these consecutively will give 8 seconds stealth if traited SA. This is not permastealth.
The bulk of the time in stealth comes from d/p and the leap and or some combination of HIS/SR and that leap in a smoke field. Again as it seemed to escape you, this is a mechanic of stealth and how traps for thief work and not of “trappers runes”.

My own ranger has no issues dealing with a Ghost thief. They little more than a nuisance.

babazhook.6805:

Puck.9612:

babazhook.6805:

Trapper runes have LITTLE to do with this. The bulk of stealth comes off d/p . Setting a trap using runes gives at most 4 seconds stealth.

That is NOT permanent. If a thief sets a trap 3 seconds later he is revealed unless he traits SA where he revealed after 4 seconds.

This whether the trap triggered or not.I get longer stealth on my mesmer using decoy as my zerker lays on far more damage then a trap ever will.

This issue has little to nothing to do with trappers runes. It is using trap in conjunction with d/p and using HS in a smoke field.

In short this another anti-stealth argument. Use reveal skills.

We aren’t all engi’s with Lock On.
I main a ranger, I need to be able to see the person to put reveal on them and these thieves can remain in stealth the entire fight. Every other profession doesn’t have a reveal skill.

This might be the most ridiculous argument I have seen on the forums… How the hell is anyone defending this?

One more time to show how little you know. Trappers runes have little to do with this. No one can stay in stealth because of trappers runes. They give 3 (4 if traited in SA) seconds of stealth on setting a trap. After that three seconds whether the trap triggered or not the person is revealed.

The lowest cooldown one can get on a trap is 24 seconds on needle/tripwire. Setting these consecutively will give 8 seconds stealth if traited SA. This is not permastealth.

One more time it is d/p used that gives the longer stealth in these builds, that being a leap in a smoke field.

Learn to play the game .

Wtf are you talking about? What does that have to do with what you quoted? Where did I say thieves weren’t using weapon skills to help keep up stealth? Are you that lost that you are making up random things to argue against?

Puck.9612:

babazhook.6805:

Puck.9612:

babazhook.6805:

Trapper runes have LITTLE to do with this. The bulk of stealth comes off d/p . Setting a trap using runes gives at most 4 seconds stealth.

That is NOT permanent. If a thief sets a trap 3 seconds later he is revealed unless he traits SA where he revealed after 4 seconds.

This whether the trap triggered or not.I get longer stealth on my mesmer using decoy as my zerker lays on far more damage then a trap ever will.

This issue has little to nothing to do with trappers runes. It is using trap in conjunction with d/p and using HS in a smoke field.

In short this another anti-stealth argument. Use reveal skills.

We aren’t all engi’s with Lock On.
I main a ranger, I need to be able to see the person to put reveal on them and these thieves can remain in stealth the entire fight. Every other profession doesn’t have a reveal skill.

This might be the most ridiculous argument I have seen on the forums… How the hell is anyone defending this?

One more time to show how little you know. Trappers runes have little to do with this. No one can stay in stealth because of trappers runes. They give 3 (4 if traited in SA) seconds of stealth on setting a trap. After that three seconds whether the trap triggered or not the person is revealed.

The lowest cooldown one can get on a trap is 24 seconds on needle/tripwire. Setting these consecutively will give 8 seconds stealth if traited SA. This is not permastealth.

One more time it is d/p used that gives the longer stealth in these builds, that being a leap in a smoke field.

Learn to play the game .

Wtf are you talking about? What does that have to do with what you quoted? Where did I say thieves weren’t using weapon skills to help keep up stealth? Are you that lost that you are making up random things to argue against?

I am responding to your argument. Please read what you posted. You have reading comprehension problems. If you are simply going to drop half of a post and respon in kind without going back to the orginal post than you are responding OUT OF context which is disingenous. See the post two above this one which contains the one I responded to in its enitirty.

babazhook.6805:

Puck.9612:

babazhook.6805:

Puck.9612:

babazhook.6805:

Trapper runes have LITTLE to do with this. The bulk of stealth comes off d/p . Setting a trap using runes gives at most 4 seconds stealth.

That is NOT permanent. If a thief sets a trap 3 seconds later he is revealed unless he traits SA where he revealed after 4 seconds.

This whether the trap triggered or not.I get longer stealth on my mesmer using decoy as my zerker lays on far more damage then a trap ever will.

This issue has little to nothing to do with trappers runes. It is using trap in conjunction with d/p and using HS in a smoke field.

In short this another anti-stealth argument. Use reveal skills.

We aren’t all engi’s with Lock On.
I main a ranger, I need to be able to see the person to put reveal on them and these thieves can remain in stealth the entire fight. Every other profession doesn’t have a reveal skill.

This might be the most ridiculous argument I have seen on the forums… How the hell is anyone defending this?

One more time to show how little you know. Trappers runes have little to do with this. No one can stay in stealth because of trappers runes. They give 3 (4 if traited in SA) seconds of stealth on setting a trap. After that three seconds whether the trap triggered or not the person is revealed.

The lowest cooldown one can get on a trap is 24 seconds on needle/tripwire. Setting these consecutively will give 8 seconds stealth if traited SA. This is not permastealth.

One more time it is d/p used that gives the longer stealth in these builds, that being a leap in a smoke field.

Learn to play the game .

Wtf are you talking about? What does that have to do with what you quoted? Where did I say thieves weren’t using weapon skills to help keep up stealth? Are you that lost that you are making up random things to argue against?

I am responding to your argument. Please read what you posted. You have reading comprehension problems. If you are simply going to drop half of a post and respon in kind without going back to the orginal post than you are responding OUT OF context which is disingenous. See the post two above this one which contains the one I responded to in its enitirity.

You are absolutely not responding to what you quoted. You are ranting that I claimed thieves were maintaining perma stealth by only using traps and nothing else. I have never said that. Either you quoted the wrong person or you are very confused as to what is being discussed. By any chance do you happen to be drunk right now?

Puck.9612:

babazhook.6805:

Puck.9612:

babazhook.6805:

Puck.9612:

babazhook.6805:

Trapper runes have LITTLE to do with this. The bulk of stealth comes off d/p . Setting a trap using runes gives at most 4 seconds stealth.

That is NOT permanent. If a thief sets a trap 3 seconds later he is revealed unless he traits SA where he revealed after 4 seconds.

This whether the trap triggered or not.I get longer stealth on my mesmer using decoy as my zerker lays on far more damage then a trap ever will.

This issue has little to nothing to do with trappers runes. It is using trap in conjunction with d/p and using HS in a smoke field.

In short this another anti-stealth argument. Use reveal skills.

We aren’t all engi’s with Lock On.
I main a ranger, I need to be able to see the person to put reveal on them and these thieves can remain in stealth the entire fight. Every other profession doesn’t have a reveal skill.

This might be the most ridiculous argument I have seen on the forums… How the hell is anyone defending this?

One more time to show how little you know. Trappers runes have little to do with this. No one can stay in stealth because of trappers runes. They give 3 (4 if traited in SA) seconds of stealth on setting a trap. After that three seconds whether the trap triggered or not the person is revealed.

The lowest cooldown one can get on a trap is 24 seconds on needle/tripwire. Setting these consecutively will give 8 seconds stealth if traited SA. This is not permastealth.

One more time it is d/p used that gives the longer stealth in these builds, that being a leap in a smoke field.

Learn to play the game .

Wtf are you talking about? What does that have to do with what you quoted? Where did I say thieves weren’t using weapon skills to help keep up stealth? Are you that lost that you are making up random things to argue against?

I am responding to your argument. Please read what you posted. You have reading comprehension problems. If you are simply going to drop half of a post and respon in kind without going back to the orginal post than you are responding OUT OF context which is disingenous. See the post two above this one which contains the one I responded to in its enitirity.

You are absolutely not responding to what you quoted. You are ranting that I claimed thieves were maintaining perma stealth by only using traps and nothing else. I have never said that. Either you quoted the wrong person or you are very confused as to what is being discussed. By any chance do you happen to be drunk right now?

Excuse me. I made a post and YOU responded to it. I pointed out in that post that trappers runes had little to do with Ghost Thief and it not an issue with the Runes. This post was in response to the OP who posted

>>A while ago Anet changed the thief a bit so they couldnt have access to the ridicilous perma stealth. Then they revamped the trapper runes so they wont reveal anymore when enemies trigger the traps. Do you guys at Anet’s office ever took thief trap in account when making this change? Apparantly not because the stealth now is even more ridicilous then it was ever before.

Trapper runes were NOT revamped in any way shape or form.

What prompted you to reply as you did if you were in agreement?

You are PUCK.9612 and you did respond to my original post. Are you suggesting there two of you and yes any suggestion that trap damage reveal the thief that set the trap is an anti-stealth argument. That is a neutral term.

babazhook.6805:

Puck.9612:

babazhook.6805:

Puck.9612:

babazhook.6805:

Puck.9612:

babazhook.6805:

Trapper runes have LITTLE to do with this. The bulk of stealth comes off d/p . Setting a trap using runes gives at most 4 seconds stealth.

That is NOT permanent. If a thief sets a trap 3 seconds later he is revealed unless he traits SA where he revealed after 4 seconds.

This whether the trap triggered or not.I get longer stealth on my mesmer using decoy as my zerker lays on far more damage then a trap ever will.

This issue has little to nothing to do with trappers runes. It is using trap in conjunction with d/p and using HS in a smoke field.

In short this another anti-stealth argument. Use reveal skills.

We aren’t all engi’s with Lock On.
I main a ranger, I need to be able to see the person to put reveal on them and these thieves can remain in stealth the entire fight. Every other profession doesn’t have a reveal skill.

This might be the most ridiculous argument I have seen on the forums… How the hell is anyone defending this?

One more time to show how little you know. Trappers runes have little to do with this. No one can stay in stealth because of trappers runes. They give 3 (4 if traited in SA) seconds of stealth on setting a trap. After that three seconds whether the trap triggered or not the person is revealed.

The lowest cooldown one can get on a trap is 24 seconds on needle/tripwire. Setting these consecutively will give 8 seconds stealth if traited SA. This is not permastealth.

One more time it is d/p used that gives the longer stealth in these builds, that being a leap in a smoke field.

Learn to play the game .

Wtf are you talking about? What does that have to do with what you quoted? Where did I say thieves weren’t using weapon skills to help keep up stealth? Are you that lost that you are making up random things to argue against?

I am responding to your argument. Please read what you posted. You have reading comprehension problems. If you are simply going to drop half of a post and respon in kind without going back to the orginal post than you are responding OUT OF context which is disingenous. See the post two above this one which contains the one I responded to in its enitirity.

You are absolutely not responding to what you quoted. You are ranting that I claimed thieves were maintaining perma stealth by only using traps and nothing else. I have never said that. Either you quoted the wrong person or you are very confused as to what is being discussed. By any chance do you happen to be drunk right now?

Excuse me. I made a post and YOU responded to it. I pointed out in that post that trappers runes had little to do with Ghost Thief and it not an issue with the Runes. This post was in response to the OP who posted

>>A while ago Anet changed the thief a bit so they couldnt have access to the ridicilous perma stealth. Then they revamped the trapper runes so they wont reveal anymore when enemies trigger the traps. Do you guys at Anet’s office ever took thief trap in account when making this change? Apparantly not because the stealth now is even more ridicilous then it was ever before.

Trapper runes were NOT revamped in any way shape or form.

What prompted you to reply as you did if you were in agreement?

You are PUCK.9612 and you did respond to my original post. Are you suggesting there two of you and yes any suggestion that trap damage reveal the thief that set the trap is an anti-stealth argument. That is a neutral term.

I responded to your suggestion that everyone should just “use a reveal skill”. I never said anything about thieves maintaining perma stealth through utility skills alone. If you want to have a discussion you need to ignore the voices in your head and respond to what the other person is actually saying.

Puck.9612:

babazhook.6805:

Puck.9612:

babazhook.6805:

Puck.9612:

babazhook.6805:

Puck.9612:

babazhook.6805:

Trapper runes have LITTLE to do with this. The bulk of stealth comes off d/p . Setting a trap using runes gives at most 4 seconds stealth.

That is NOT permanent. If a thief sets a trap 3 seconds later he is revealed unless he traits SA where he revealed after 4 seconds.

This whether the trap triggered or not.I get longer stealth on my mesmer using decoy as my zerker lays on far more damage then a trap ever will.

This issue has little to nothing to do with trappers runes. It is using trap in conjunction with d/p and using HS in a smoke field.

In short this another anti-stealth argument. Use reveal skills.

We aren’t all engi’s with Lock On.
I main a ranger, I need to be able to see the person to put reveal on them and these thieves can remain in stealth the entire fight. Every other profession doesn’t have a reveal skill.

This might be the most ridiculous argument I have seen on the forums… How the hell is anyone defending this?

One more time to show how little you know. Trappers runes have little to do with this. No one can stay in stealth because of trappers runes. They give 3 (4 if traited in SA) seconds of stealth on setting a trap. After that three seconds whether the trap triggered or not the person is revealed.

The lowest cooldown one can get on a trap is 24 seconds on needle/tripwire. Setting these consecutively will give 8 seconds stealth if traited SA. This is not permastealth.

One more time it is d/p used that gives the longer stealth in these builds, that being a leap in a smoke field.

Learn to play the game .

Wtf are you talking about? What does that have to do with what you quoted? Where did I say thieves weren’t using weapon skills to help keep up stealth? Are you that lost that you are making up random things to argue against?

I am responding to your argument. Please read what you posted. You have reading comprehension problems. If you are simply going to drop half of a post and respon in kind without going back to the orginal post than you are responding OUT OF context which is disingenous. See the post two above this one which contains the one I responded to in its enitirity.

You are absolutely not responding to what you quoted. You are ranting that I claimed thieves were maintaining perma stealth by only using traps and nothing else. I have never said that. Either you quoted the wrong person or you are very confused as to what is being discussed. By any chance do you happen to be drunk right now?

Excuse me. I made a post and YOU responded to it. I pointed out in that post that trappers runes had little to do with Ghost Thief and it not an issue with the Runes. This post was in response to the OP who posted

>>A while ago Anet changed the thief a bit so they couldnt have access to the ridicilous perma stealth. Then they revamped the trapper runes so they wont reveal anymore when enemies trigger the traps. Do you guys at Anet’s office ever took thief trap in account when making this change? Apparantly not because the stealth now is even more ridicilous then it was ever before.

Trapper runes were NOT revamped in any way shape or form.

What prompted you to reply as you did if you were in agreement?

You are PUCK.9612 and you did respond to my original post. Are you suggesting there two of you and yes any suggestion that trap damage reveal the thief that set the trap is an anti-stealth argument. That is a neutral term.

I responded to your suggestion that everyone should just “use a reveal skill”. I never said anything about thieves maintaining perma stealth through utility skills alone. If you want to have a discussion you need to ignore the voices in your head and respond to what the other person is actually saying.

Excuse me but you responded to my entire post and suggested it ridiculous. You did not respond just to the bit on reveal. If you are going to respond to one point you should cite only that point,. No one can read your mind.

Added to that in suggesting a ranger did not have lockon you implied there no other way for other professions to deal with a stealthed thief.

My own Ranger does not even have to trait sic em to deal with ghost thief.

An elementalist can brush ghost thief of like a gnat with diamond skin.

A warrior has so much in the way of condition removal and can so easily break an immobilize any warrior that dies to one does not know his craft.

A Mesmer can pop in and out of stealth so often it all but impossible for a ghost thief to apply one of this traps unless the Mesmer afk or clueless.

An engineer need only spam his ample AOE.

A thief can hide just as easily clearing conditions as he does so.

guardians have ample healing and condition cleanse and will soon have a reveal all their own.

There will soon be a mass AOE available to a team that will neuter thus one dimensional build.

There is no issues I see with ghost thief that the vast majority of classes either can not deal with or will be able to better deal with come hot.

It a non issue being blown out of proportion by the same types of people who never tire of calling for a nerf to stealth and thieves and have continued in this vein since the game released.

It just another cry wolf.

just make thief traps do a small amount of damage. problem solved.

babazhook.6805:

I am responding to your argument. Please read what you posted. You have reading comprehension problems. If you are simply going to drop half of a post and respon in kind without going back to the orginal post than you are responding OUT OF context which is disingenous. See the post two above this one which contains the one I responded to in its enitirty.

No you weren’t. Nobody in the thread said anything about Trapper Runes being the only source of stealth. The issue is the runes COMBINED with the stealth on the weapon skills/utilities plus teleports. You did not address anything in this thread.

Ranger traps do damage as they added damage to the frost trap at some point. Perhaps Pepper’s suggestion above should be examined.

Jana.6831:

DeceiverX.8361:

Going to have to agree somewhat. Even if you know his location if he himself isn’t braindead he should be able to survive almost anything.

I frontline glass cannon thief without any defensive traits or abilities in 40v40 and usually come out alive. I have been asked by commanders in server chat/TS how I stay alive and have been frequently used as an engage signal for the rest of the blob to follow after I am first to dive in. I quit solo roaming recently because it become a matter of extremely cheesy and unfun build decisions and frankly, I think D/P and SA are extremely boring, passive, and easy ways to play the thief and the game itself.

If people die playing dire thief to any extent in anything less than 25 people, or mesmer, they are straight bad.

I still kill dire thieves, although it’s easier to do it with a stealth trap, yes, but 4 experienced people should be able to kill them.

Not sure what your zerg experience has to do with it, but I’m doing the same actually – you have to know how the zergs will move and I don’t know how I can tell, experience or instinct, no idea. Guess it’s the same with D/D as well, there’s not much time to think.

You’re fighting really bad dire condi players then tbh, granted most of them are because of the fact they typically use it as a crutch to get free kills. A friend of mine used to run it before I taught him D/D signets. He went from being able to solo pretty much anything under a 7v1 to dying to almost anything. He’s since become quite distinguished in my book and plays a more generic D/D and D/P build these days, but for funsies he went back to dire conditions recently for a day. I watched him solo 15 people down and never drop below half. I tried the same for shiggles and lasted only a few seconds. We swapped, and our success flipped almost identically.

Really, anyone playing dire conditions has no excuse to die unless massively outnumbered by an army of mesmers all coordinating ranged stealth stunlocking and reveal traps.

DeceiverX.8361:

You’re fighting really bad dire condi players then tbh, granted most of them are because of the fact they typically use it as a crutch to get free kills.

Yes,no wonder -there’s hardly any thieves around anymore, let alone solo.
Or maybe I’m just a really good thief ;)

Samis.1750:

babazhook.6805:

I am responding to your argument. Please read what you posted. You have reading comprehension problems. If you are simply going to drop half of a post and respon in kind without going back to the orginal post than you are responding OUT OF context which is disingenous. See the post two above this one which contains the one I responded to in its enitirty.

No you weren’t. Nobody in the thread said anything about Trapper Runes being the only source of stealth. The issue is the runes COMBINED with the stealth on the weapon skills/utilities plus teleports. You did not address anything in this thread.

Ranger traps do damage as they added damage to the frost trap at some point. Perhaps Pepper’s suggestion above should be examined.

Can you read? read the OP for petes sake. He stated a change was made to trappers runes. I cut and pasted it once already and you still ignore it.

I responded to that indicating that it was not trappers runes and that other sources of stealth more important. Did you bother to read that?

I stated what those other sources were and concluded that this was not a trappers rune issue but another argument against stealth.

Which it is. Adding damage to a trap is a method whereby stealth can be broken forcing a reveal. How is that so hard for you to understand?

So one more time this is what the OP suggested.

>>A while ago Anet changed the thief a bit so they couldnt have access to the ridicilous perma stealth. Then they revamped the trapper runes so they wont reveal anymore when enemies trigger the traps. Do you guys at Anet’s office ever took thief trap in account when making this change? Apparantly not because the stealth now is even more ridicilous then it was ever before.

Kapiche? he suggested changes made to trappers runes. No such changes were made. This is not a trappers rune issue. He then concluded that trappers Runes needed to be reverted (they were never changed) or removed .

I responded.

>>Trapper runes have LITTLE to do with this. The bulk of stealth comes off d/p . Setting a trap using runes gives at most 4 seconds stealth.
That is NOT permanent. If a thief sets a trap 3 seconds later he is revealed unless he traits SA where he revealed after 4 seconds.
This whether the trap triggered or not.I get longer stealth on my mesmer using decoy as my zerker lays on far more damage then a trap ever will.
This issue has little to nothing to do with trappers runes. It is using trap in conjunction with d/p and using HS in a smoke field.
In short this another anti-stealth argument. Use reveal skills.

Is that hard for you to follow? Puck then reponded that my argument was ridiculous and assumed I should know what part he was referring to.

I have since than given all manner of reasons why the issue with traps not revealing a theif as an issue is overstated. People dealt with caltrops all this time and had no issues and those did not reveal a thief.

I have yet to die to one. I have not come close. They are easy to counter or ignore.

As to peppers suggestion. What suggestion? This is nothing new. It how traps worked before. Virtually no thief used traps because they could not afford a reveal triggering at the wrong time. The suggestion is “change traps back to what they were so no one uses them”.

DeceiverX.8361:

Jana.6831:

DeceiverX.8361:

Going to have to agree somewhat. Even if you know his location if he himself isn’t braindead he should be able to survive almost anything.

I frontline glass cannon thief without any defensive traits or abilities in 40v40 and usually come out alive. I have been asked by commanders in server chat/TS how I stay alive and have been frequently used as an engage signal for the rest of the blob to follow after I am first to dive in. I quit solo roaming recently because it become a matter of extremely cheesy and unfun build decisions and frankly, I think D/P and SA are extremely boring, passive, and easy ways to play the thief and the game itself.

If people die playing dire thief to any extent in anything less than 25 people, or mesmer, they are straight bad.

I still kill dire thieves, although it’s easier to do it with a stealth trap, yes, but 4 experienced people should be able to kill them.

Not sure what your zerg experience has to do with it, but I’m doing the same actually – you have to know how the zergs will move and I don’t know how I can tell, experience or instinct, no idea. Guess it’s the same with D/D as well, there’s not much time to think.

You’re fighting really bad dire condi players then tbh, granted most of them are because of the fact they typically use it as a crutch to get free kills. A friend of mine used to run it before I taught him D/D signets. He went from being able to solo pretty much anything under a 7v1 to dying to almost anything. He’s since become quite distinguished in my book and plays a more generic D/D and D/P build these days, but for funsies he went back to dire conditions recently for a day. I watched him solo 15 people down and never drop below half. I tried the same for shiggles and lasted only a few seconds. We swapped, and our success flipped almost identically.

Really, anyone playing dire conditions has no excuse to die unless massively outnumbered by an army of mesmers all coordinating ranged stealth stunlocking and reveal traps.

And the other day I was on my elementalist when I ran into a dire p/d condition thief. I was not set up for damage but for healing support for zergs and was just running about resetting siege.

He had no chance whatsoever of ever defeating me. Nothing he had in his build could ever get past all the healing I had and the diamond skin.

When he did come out of stealth I could attack and wear him down (even as he wore dire) faster then he could wear me down . I was not wearing dire. His dire armor was not saving him. He would stealth and reset when he got near death and recover his health.

We could have fought forever me with no stealth and no dire and he with his stealth and with his dire and not gotten anywhere. That is the nature of builds structured around bunkering and sustain.

You can also get a whole pile of people trying to kill two eles who just team off one another switcihing to water in sequence . They do not need stealth or dire.

Jana.6831:

apharma.3741:

I think you can kind of boil down the discussion to a simple yes or no to a very simple question.

Should you ever be able to kill someone without ever leaving stealth or any indicators you were there?

Counterquestion: There’s enough classes who are basically invulnerable throughout the fight – should that be?

There you go, that’s what you put, please show me the build that are basically invulnerable throughout the fight. As far as I can see the only ones that can get anything close to that are multi stance warriors and engineers and possibly some kind of bad ranger running signet of stone and protect me.

Even then you as a thief have the tools to wait it out even on DD. With some of the invulnerabilities needing for you to be hit while under a threshold.

So how’s about you answer the question I posed above?

I gather by the sig change you’re no longer on GH.

i also had the pleassure to fight 2 trapper thieves again yesterday once on my mesmer and one on my engi. none of em lasted more then 5 seconds. i put a chaos storm on the one who got interrupted/stunned in any attempt to restealth and got bursted down. 2nd one just jumpshot with lockon trait onto pistolfield , 6s reveal => dead thief. and my engi did have very low condi remove , mesmer only had condi duration reduction.

ofc u can now again argue that they were bad, but i see posts here about ghost thieves to kill 15 ppl ..if a ghost thief can kill 1vs 15 – those 15 were simply bad.

a ghost thief is good for killing brainless players or even groups or ppl without condi remove/reduction. but most roaming builds should be able to handle ghost thieves.

and still :

- no trapper runes needed for 100% stealth.
- adding back direct dmg is not a fix as traps were not used with direct dmg.
- still the only ‘OP’ thing about this build is its annoyance level. im also annoyed by groups of 4-5 ppl who keep chasing solo roamers – pls fix this.

P.S. pu chrono will be fun. btw they had 200% stealth => 150% stealth but with alacrity they will have more stealth then before last pu nerf and with alacrity they can get their scepter block down to ~3,6s cd .. dont think trapper thief is the build u will cry about most in a few days

apharma.3741:

I think you can kind of boil down the discussion to a simple yes or no to a very simple question.

Should you ever be able to kill someone without ever leaving stealth or any indicators you were there?

its not possible to stay 100% stealthed without indicators. most ghost thieves ive seen do this with d/p so u see em pistolfields. u also could stay stealthed with p/d but that requieres u to prefectly time ur CnD or ur revealed also if u fight a thief perma stealthing with CnD u need to aoe blind / block / dogge and his stealth runs out. i ve seen already perma stealthed thieves with only CnD like 2 years back so thats nothing new and if they play power build they should kill u alot faster then a p/d ghost thief.

will u demand a cd on CnD just for the skills nature to remain stealthed if timed perfectly ? well i mained thief 3 years and wont touch it after HoT so for me it wouldnt be a nerf .. but for the few remaining thieves that stick to this class even tho they got pretty much nerfed out of the game – just check the thief forums and u will find tons of ppl quitting / changing class now.

MUDse.7623:

apharma.3741:

I think you can kind of boil down the discussion to a simple yes or no to a very simple question.

Should you ever be able to kill someone without ever leaving stealth or any indicators you were there?

its not possible to stay 100% stealthed without indicators. most ghost thieves ive seen do this with d/p so u see em pistolfields. u also could stay stealthed with p/d but that requieres u to prefectly time ur CnD or ur revealed also if u fight a thief perma stealthing with CnD u need to aoe blind / block / dogge and his stealth runs out. i ve seen already perma stealthed thieves with only CnD like 2 years back so thats nothing new and if they play power build they should kill u alot faster then a p/d ghost thief.

will u demand a cd on CnD just for the skills nature to remain stealthed if timed perfectly ? well i mained thief 3 years and wont touch it after HoT so for me it wouldnt be a nerf .. but for the few remaining thieves that stick to this class even tho they got pretty much nerfed out of the game – just check the thief forums and u will find tons of ppl quitting / changing class now.

To be clear the only thing I would say needs changing is a small bit of token damage adding to needle trap and tripwire. It makes no sense for shadow trap and ambush to do any damage tbh. In fact I’d even be for removing ambush and putting a much better trap in its place.

As for no indicators, it depends where you are and what’s happening. As you’re a frequent visitor to the thief forums, I’m sure you remember that ranger vid where he just got destroyed by the trap thief. I know the ranger made a slight mistake but there was no indication that any enemy was there till the second set of trap got laid on him. Even then you only saw the thief once for a second after they stomped due to not enough stacked stealth.

apharma.3741:

As for no indicators, it depends where you are and what’s happening. As you’re a frequent visitor to the thief forums, I’m sure you remember that ranger vid where he just got destroyed by the trap thief. I know the ranger made a slight mistake but there was no indication that any enemy was there till the second set of trap got laid on him. Even then you only saw the thief once for a second after they stomped due to not enough stacked stealth.

yes i know that video. thats rather a problem of pre dropped traps. the thief in the video also said he had pre played down some traps , had them rdy again when the ranger triggered the first one, then he placed the 2nd traps and got lucky with improvisation to put down some more. to fix this it would be enough to make the needle trap / trip wire more like the shadow trap.
the shadow trap’s cd goes down like the one of needle trap/ tripwire when placed the trap. but in order to place another one right after that time u have to change skills which destroys the trap. u can also use the skill that replaces shadow trap : either Destroy Trap wich ports u to that location ( is declared a trap skill but does not give stealth from the rune) this will trigger the trap cd or Shadow Pursuit when someone has already triggered it and using this skill will also set the trap on cd. So if u change skill bar when placed needle trap / tripwhire to a specific ‘destroy trap’ which will set it on cd or if the trap is triggered the cd starts would also prevent the kind of condi bomb of that video. without that much condis the ranger had easily enough time to react properly to the thief.

p.s. i think setting cd when triggered is better or it will get complicated with the needle trap on heal.

edit: only putting direct dmg on that traps wouldnt prevent the ranger to die in that video coz he died just on condy overload ..if the thief was around the corner when the 1. traps where triggered he just had to wait 3s for reveal to end port with stealth through the wall and hes restealthed at the enemy again so the ranger wouldnt have seen him till then.

Yeah I saw the thief response and I’m well aware of how he died but if the pre placed offensive traps revealed the thief when they got trigger then he’d have seen the thief hiding around the corner. He’d have then been able to take some measure to run away or maybe not have used his heal. He’d have known to expect follow up attacks or potentially have been able to turn some pressure on the thief.

I’m not asking to gut thief or the runes which is why I said adding token damage to the 2 offensive traps.

There is nothing wrong with thief traps, they are fine as is. If a thief goes full trapper they have very little in the way of stealth access. Adding damage back to traps will make them unusable again. Why should sacrificing all your utilities be rewarded with random reveals?

What is broken is the runes themselves. The runes are providing stealth uptime equivalent to what a thief can achieve by taking all the of classes available stealth utilties. Either the stealth needs to be removed from trapper runes or made a very short duration.

On a side note, I still think revealed needs to be normalised across PvP and WvW and made 4 seconds. A condi trap thief cannot kill someone with decent condi removal unless they reveal themselves for additional damage.

Smoke field -> HS, CnD, HiS, Steal, SR, … Thieves have plenty ways to stealth without trapper runes. It would make it harder for them to stay stealthed permanently, but nerfing/changing trapper runes, which are totaly fine on ranger/dh, would affect those two classes still more than thieves.

babazhook.6805:

DeceiverX.8361:

Jana.6831:

DeceiverX.8361:

Going to have to agree somewhat. Even if you know his location if he himself isn’t braindead he should be able to survive almost anything.

I frontline glass cannon thief without any defensive traits or abilities in 40v40 and usually come out alive. I have been asked by commanders in server chat/TS how I stay alive and have been frequently used as an engage signal for the rest of the blob to follow after I am first to dive in. I quit solo roaming recently because it become a matter of extremely cheesy and unfun build decisions and frankly, I think D/P and SA are extremely boring, passive, and easy ways to play the thief and the game itself.

If people die playing dire thief to any extent in anything less than 25 people, or mesmer, they are straight bad.

I still kill dire thieves, although it’s easier to do it with a stealth trap, yes, but 4 experienced people should be able to kill them.

Not sure what your zerg experience has to do with it, but I’m doing the same actually – you have to know how the zergs will move and I don’t know how I can tell, experience or instinct, no idea. Guess it’s the same with D/D as well, there’s not much time to think.

You’re fighting really bad dire condi players then tbh, granted most of them are because of the fact they typically use it as a crutch to get free kills. A friend of mine used to run it before I taught him D/D signets. He went from being able to solo pretty much anything under a 7v1 to dying to almost anything. He’s since become quite distinguished in my book and plays a more generic D/D and D/P build these days, but for funsies he went back to dire conditions recently for a day. I watched him solo 15 people down and never drop below half. I tried the same for shiggles and lasted only a few seconds. We swapped, and our success flipped almost identically.

Really, anyone playing dire conditions has no excuse to die unless massively outnumbered by an army of mesmers all coordinating ranged stealth stunlocking and reveal traps.

And the other day I was on my elementalist when I ran into a dire p/d condition thief. I was not set up for damage but for healing support for zergs and was just running about resetting siege.

He had no chance whatsoever of ever defeating me. Nothing he had in his build could ever get past all the healing I had and the diamond skin.

When he did come out of stealth I could attack and wear him down (even as he wore dire) faster then he could wear me down . I was not wearing dire. His dire armor was not saving him. He would stealth and reset when he got near death and recover his health.

We could have fought forever me with no stealth and no dire and he with his stealth and with his dire and not gotten anywhere. That is the nature of builds structured around bunkering and sustain.

You can also get a whole pile of people trying to kill two eles who just team off one another switcihing to water in sequence . They do not need stealth or dire.

So you are saying diamond skin counters dire builds !? No kitten sherlock. Thanks for another completely random and pointless argument.

Puck.9612:

babazhook.6805:

DeceiverX.8361:

Jana.6831:

DeceiverX.8361:

Going to have to agree somewhat. Even if you know his location if he himself isn’t braindead he should be able to survive almost anything.

I frontline glass cannon thief without any defensive traits or abilities in 40v40 and usually come out alive. I have been asked by commanders in server chat/TS how I stay alive and have been frequently used as an engage signal for the rest of the blob to follow after I am first to dive in. I quit solo roaming recently because it become a matter of extremely cheesy and unfun build decisions and frankly, I think D/P and SA are extremely boring, passive, and easy ways to play the thief and the game itself.

If people die playing dire thief to any extent in anything less than 25 people, or mesmer, they are straight bad.

I still kill dire thieves, although it’s easier to do it with a stealth trap, yes, but 4 experienced people should be able to kill them.

Not sure what your zerg experience has to do with it, but I’m doing the same actually – you have to know how the zergs will move and I don’t know how I can tell, experience or instinct, no idea. Guess it’s the same with D/D as well, there’s not much time to think.

You’re fighting really bad dire condi players then tbh, granted most of them are because of the fact they typically use it as a crutch to get free kills. A friend of mine used to run it before I taught him D/D signets. He went from being able to solo pretty much anything under a 7v1 to dying to almost anything. He’s since become quite distinguished in my book and plays a more generic D/D and D/P build these days, but for funsies he went back to dire conditions recently for a day. I watched him solo 15 people down and never drop below half. I tried the same for shiggles and lasted only a few seconds. We swapped, and our success flipped almost identically.

Really, anyone playing dire conditions has no excuse to die unless massively outnumbered by an army of mesmers all coordinating ranged stealth stunlocking and reveal traps.

And the other day I was on my elementalist when I ran into a dire p/d condition thief. I was not set up for damage but for healing support for zergs and was just running about resetting siege.

He had no chance whatsoever of ever defeating me. Nothing he had in his build could ever get past all the healing I had and the diamond skin.

When he did come out of stealth I could attack and wear him down (even as he wore dire) faster then he could wear me down . I was not wearing dire. His dire armor was not saving him. He would stealth and reset when he got near death and recover his health.

We could have fought forever me with no stealth and no dire and he with his stealth and with his dire and not gotten anywhere. That is the nature of builds structured around bunkering and sustain.

You can also get a whole pile of people trying to kill two eles who just team off one another switcihing to water in sequence . They do not need stealth or dire.

So you are saying diamond skin counters dire builds !? No kitten sherlock. Thanks for another completely random and pointless argument.

Youy poor thing. Having been exposed in the thread as making an argument that has no merit when examined in detail you have to come back with this.

The point is anyone can design a build which is invulnerable to certain builds. It does not need stealth to do it. It does not need trappers runes. When I am on a p/d dire theif and come across one of these elemtantalist who can kill me while I have no chance of killing him , i do not come to the boards and cry for a nerf. I leave the fight.

A further point to this.

That thief was in Dire and using P/d and had absolutely no chance to do be able to inflict damage enough to hurt my ele. Now at the same time I was not built to inflict damage enough to counter such a build given the times he was revealed , while I could bring down his health quicker then he mine once he stealthed I had few options in my existing build.

This would have been the case were he wearing armor other then dire such as a blend of apothecary and shamans. It was not dire that would save him it was stealth. I did not come running to these boards to whine about that stealth.

Just as my Ele can totally neutralize a thief condition build, it can neutralize a thief Ghost build. A Ghost build using dire d/p and traps would never be able to inflict damage enough to get past diamond skin. Reveal is not needed. The same applies were my warrior in the game. Being all but immune to Immobs he would not get trapped in a caltrops which lays on the bulk of the damage in such a build. the 3 stacks of bleeds from a trap can not kill a warrior. A warrior does not have reveal.

In other words , the Ghost Thief build is very niche and can only work against a limited number of builds and in particular those that lack condition cleanses or immob breaks. If there a person with a particular build or lacking the knowledge of the game or plays in a style that can not counter such a build, it hardly means the build OP for using that reasoning there going to be a whole lot of builds that qualify.

So no my response to Deceiver was not pointless. It just went over your head. In that fight against the thief I recognized staying around to try and kill him was pointless. That hardly means he was OP and it hardly balance to suggest “I should get a chance to kill him while he has none to kill me”. which seems to be the mantra of many of those calling for nerfs to stealth.

Nothing forces you to hang around trying to kill a ghost thief if you do not have the tools in your build to do so. leave.

apharma.3741:

Yeah I saw the thief response and I’m well aware of how he died but if the pre placed offensive traps revealed the thief when they got trigger then he’d have seen the thief hiding around the corner. He’d have then been able to take some measure to run away or maybe not have used his heal. He’d have known to expect follow up attacks or potentially have been able to turn some pressure on the thief.

I’m not asking to gut thief or the runes which is why I said adding token damage to the 2 offensive traps.

It does not follow that just because a thief is revealed a player will see him and run away. I have come upon a pile of players oblivous to my presence across all of my characters even those with no stealth.

The Ranger in question ran into the traps. Once he ran into the traps he could have reacted the EXACT same way he would have reacted had he seen that theif. He could have used his Immob break and ran away.

A ranger can also counter with their own AOE which will still work against stealthed foes be it bonfire, barrage, traps of their own . If there nothing in a current build to counter than do as any other class does when it comes against a foe it can not prevail against. leave the fight.

Added to that for pre stacked traps to work they have to be used in an area a thief knows will be entered such as those doorways. They count on people being creatures of habit. The ranger in question would never have died had he left by a different path or dodged through that doorway. He was caught because it was a TRAP. That is how a trap should work.

I was once standing at a doorway watching a camp where I had laid a few stacked traps. A guy ran over them was immobbed and killed by the guards before I even got to him. He knew the gaurds there. he did not know the traps there. Whether I was stealthed or using trappers runes would have made no difference to his fate. He did not have an immob break left to him likely having used it against one of the guards Immobs.

Stuff happens. If your build can not cope with that stuff it does not call for nerfs to anothers abilities.

Jana.6831:

jdallen.5179:

With respect, jana, you answered a different question; we were doing what you were suggesting.

The question I actually asked was, how does a trapper thief kill 4 or 5 PC’s, given parity in player skill and equipment? What do they equip? What skills do they use? How do they sequence them?

That should highlight either what’s broken, or how to counter it.

AoE skills, every class has them, use them. Dodge, also every class is able to do that, cleanse condis, yet again every class can do that.
In short: Think (not everybody can do that)

That is one of the most blatant example of someone not discussing in good faith. It is FAR from that simple. I play all professions but main an ele and I can tell you right of the bat that my staff ele has tons of AOE and condi cleanse, as you well know, but that it is not making up for the stupidly unfair advantage of perma stealth. Not by a long shot. You are still relatively powerless in front of that kind of build since you cant expect thieves to stay inside your pretty red circles. You are pretty much stuff in a reactive position or at best flailing blindly around crossing our fingers big time.

I’d be curious to see you on other build and professions to see how you deal with that without having to bail or resort to stealth traps.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Jana.6831:

jdallen.5179:

With respect, jana, you answered a different question; we were doing what you were suggesting.

The question I actually asked was, how does a trapper thief kill 4 or 5 PC’s, given parity in player skill and equipment? What do they equip? What skills do they use? How do they sequence them?

That should highlight either what’s broken, or how to counter it.

AoE skills, every class has them, use them. Dodge, also every class is able to do that, cleanse condis, yet again every class can do that.
In short: Think (not everybody can do that)

That is one of the most blatant example of someone not discussing in good faith. It is FAR from that simple. I play all professions but main an ele and I can tell you right of the bat that my staff ele has tons of AOE and condi cleanse, as you well know, but that it is not making up for the stupidly unfair advantage of perma stealth. Not by a long shot. You are still relatively powerless in front of that kind of build since you cant expect thieves to stay inside your pretty red circles. You are pretty much stuff in a reactive position or at best flailing blindly around crossing our fingers big time.

I’d be curious to see you on other build and professions to see how you deal with that without having to bail or resort to stealth traps.

Not every build is intended to have a counter to every build. Again I have an elementalist whom Thief condition builds have no way of harming. My elementalist does not have stealth.

Now tell me. What harm can that thief do to your ele if the thief perma stealthed?

Ripkord.8567:

… iam realising that you guys who are complaining about stealth thiefs are just to lazy to use anti stealth traps and skills…

If your class has not any chance to reveal a perma stealth thief, go get some anti stealth traps. Or joint with a class that can reveal stealth ( more Classes are able to do that in HoT)…

Now stop ranting about permastealth thief, go and build a build that has CONDITION removal in it. Use it and stop beeing a crybaby.

Anet has already done something against it long ago and even added with HoT more options exactly for this situation.

What kind of non-sense is that? Not all professions have access to so called ‘anti-stealth’ skills/traits and you can’t reasonably expect ppl to always carry supply and traps at all time. Oh, wait mister invisi trapper thief, I have to go to speldan get myself supplies for my stealth trap because I just dropped mine into a ram… brb…

No, seriously ppl drop it with the stealth trap BS. It’s just insulting to ppl intelligence to try that argument.

Perma stealth is kitten period. It provides extremely poor fights on top of being utterly unfair. It’s only fun for trolls and I’m sad ANET feed them so well.