Guild Wars 2

Apparently there’s a rumor that Anet is going to remove treb damage to rams through gates. I think this is a horrible idea because as a lower tier server that is often outmanned, this is usually the ONLY way we can hold a tower against greater population servers. Removing this would take away a key part of defensive strategy and take a lot of the fun away from the game for defensive players like myself.

Please Anet, do not do this!

I’d be interested to hear other’s opinions on this…

Thanks!

It would be a terrible idea to do this. Right now it’s the only defensive measure if your server is outnumbered off hours, and even then this doesn’t work against omegas.

They should have gotten rid of mesmer portals for golems in this game, it’s way too easy at the moment to get a portal out and waypoint. Instead they’re nerfing defense which will only hurt the servers that don’t have 24/7 coverage even more. It’s the fact that defense is more and more impossible that makes people tired of the 24/7 format.

Bertrand.3057:

It would be a terrible idea to do this. Right now it’s the only defensive measure if your server is outnumbered off hours, and even then this doesn’t work against omegas.

There are ways for a few people to counter omegas, but if they take away treb damage on rams at gates, there will be very little chance of being able to counter a zerg attacking a tower or keep. It will remove a key defensive strategy, and will make for a more boring game, IMO…

Agreed. Do not remove treb damage through a gate unless some equally effective compensatory defense mechanism takes its place. As others have stated, it’s often the sole force equalizer for an outnumbered group defending a tower or keep against a zerg.

The counter-arguments that we’re going to hear in response will be:

1) It’s not realistic to have the treb damage go through the gate without damaging the gate.

Ummm…none of it is realistic. It’s a fantasy online game. You don’t get to cherry pick your realism to fit your own agenda. If treb damage through gates isn’t realistic, neither are animated Asura stone constructs (golems), siege weapons you carry in your back pocket, or expecting to destroy a reinforced gate by plinking away at it with a sword or arrows.

You want to remove treb damage through a gate on the basis of realism? Fine. I’ll give up the treb in exchange for you giving up golems, rams that magically expand like a pokemon from a poke ball, and the ability to damage a gate with your weapon and utility skills.

2) You can’t hit a treb hidden inside of a tower or keep, but it can hit you. This is unbalanced, uncounterable, and soooooo unfair QQ!

Anyone using this as their defensive argument has branded themselves a karma-training zerger who doesn’t know how to lay siege to a fortification outside of throwing down a ram or auto-attacking the gate.

There is not a single spot anywhere in any tower or keep where a treb can be placed that can’t be countered by some form of siege weapon or player skills. Those who claim otherwise obviously haven’t played WvW enough to learn this or – even if they have an inordinate amount of hours playing – never made the effort to learn anything beyond pressing the 1 key.

3) I don’t want have to build a counter-treb to take out the defensive treb. Treb wars is so boooooring.

In other words, you want all the loot handed to you on a silver platter with little to no effort on your part beyond auto-attacking the gate, believing that to be the epitome of skilled play. Trebbing may be boring to you; PvDooring is boring to us. Simply a matter of opinion.

It’s the difference between playing checkers and chess; one involves a bit more planning, forethought, strategy, and time than the other. If you want to play chess, play WvW. If you want to play checkers, play EotM.

4) Those defenders behind the treb are skill-less noobs. If they were any good, they’d come out from behind their treb and their walls and engage us in a fair fight like manly men!

And rolling up to a gate outnumbering your opponent 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10-to-1 is the shining ideal of skilled, fair play? Riiiiight. You can talk to me about skill when you manage to capture the tower or keep with your three players versus my three players. Until then, all I see is a skill-less blob that doesn’t know any better than to press the 1 key or throw down a ram right in the path of a trebuchet boulder’s blast radius. GG.

Feel free to add any additional merit-less counters. Don’t forget to include plenty of Straw Man arguments, ad hominem attacks, QQ’s about how siege is killing off WvW, and sprinkle liberally with the word “noob”. For extra credit, spin the discussion off into a tangent about how terribad arrow carts are, too.

Taking out trebs hitting splash damage onto rams would be a terrible idea. Might as well make WvW into a giant karma train every matchup since it’ll be impossible to defend.

Also, there are certain positions you can place your rams where the rammers won’t be knocked back from treb or cata shots so if your zerg is large enough, just keep building rams. lrn2ramplacement. Otherwise, use catapults against a wall

Stupid idea to do this, i love to defend and a treb behind gate often stalls big zergs and if thats going to be removed, what else can we do to even counter rams. Cannons? Nope cant even use em properly if group decide to aoe spam.

Since they made that ram mastery so powerfull we. defenders, feeling forced to put up trebs since itrs the only method to do something against it, all siege got offensive traitlines now while gates and walls are in the same state as launch.

Like Reverence stated above me, there are certain spots to put down rams where people wont be pushed off by the treb.

Lets just remove all siege so people actually come out of keeps/towers instead of camping them with ac/balista etc.

I hope they do not. Gates are too easily breached. When it comes to defense, probably 5-10% of the people on a server do 90-95% of the work. Please ANet, don’t make our jobs harder, and further tilt the game in favor of the zerg.

Its a broken mechanic, get the hell over it.

Avenge.1478:

Its a broken mechanic, get the hell over it.

Yep. Almost as broken as the decision to make WvW about who has the largest zerg rather than who employs the better strategies, tactics, and counters. Until that broken design decision is corrected, the broken mechanic of trebs causing splash damage to rams through a gate is practically the only counter available to the outnumbered defender.

If properly designed the burning oil would counter rams. But we have the broken mechanic that the device and the operator die within seconds. Same is valid for cannons or mortars in most cases. The only way to counter this broken mechanic is the usage of another one. It is the bitter truth.

Avenge.1478:

Its a broken mechanic, get the hell over it.

More broken than pvdoor?

Vyceloch.1285:

Apparently there’s a rumor that Anet is going to remove treb damage to rams through gates. I think this is a horrible idea because as a lower tier server that is often outmanned, this is usually the ONLY way we can hold a tower against greater population servers. Removing this would take away a key part of defensive strategy and take a lot of the fun away from the game for defensive players like myself.

Please Anet, do not do this!

I’d be interested to hear other’s opinions on this…

Thanks!

I am here as a major wvw verteran since beta, taking this away in wvw will be a MAJOR mistake. As others have posted, when the zerg (or really any enemy force greater than 15) is outside your keep/tower gate. You have very few options. While cannons and oil can work, they are destroyed far to easily and the users also die from the massive aoe the zerg is throwing at the defenders. Arrow carts will not stop the zerg from building the rams and smashing the gate down, unless you have like 5 superior arrow carts inside the tower/keep, and the zerg hasn’t already destroyed the arrow carts.

This change will be another MAJOR blow to defending objectives, and will only further make it easier for zergs to karma train (if for some reason you don’t know what a wvw karma train is by now, its a large zerg of players going from 1 objective to another, and they are so big that they can not be stopped unless faced against another big zerg or skilled guild groups). If you are going to take away this method of defending, which is one of the few ways left to be able to somewhat effectively stop the Player vs Door (gate) zerging, then you had better fix some of the other problems. Again, see the many other posts that explain these problems.

slingblade.1437:

I hope they do not. Gates are too easily breached. When it comes to defense, probably 5-10% of the people on a server do 90-95% of the work. Please ANet, don’t make our jobs harder, and further tilt the game in favor of the zerg.

What’s funny is that people will go to gates first normally, when I’ve noticed it’s easier to take walls. Outside of a few easily hit siege on walls, there is absolutely no way to defend against people catapulting your walls outside of getting a group together to take them out or making an easily countered siege to counter theirs.

Finally! It’s about time.

People need to learn to siege towers better. It’s a Broken mechanic. Always has been and I’ll be crazy happy if this change happens. Don’t get me wrong, I’m HAPPY for poison to still apply, that’s clever, but just damaging through a gate is a bad thing.

Learn how to place arrow carts, supply traps and how to destroy rams the proper ways rather than a cheese, non counter play mechanic. Stop them building rams in the first place and your life will be far easier.

Side note: saying your a wvw veteran doesn’t make your post have more weight.

KarlusDavius.1024:

Finally! It’s about time.

People need to learn to siege towers better. It’s a Broken mechanic. Always has been and I’ll be crazy happy if this change happens. Don’t get me wrong, I’m HAPPY for poison to still apply, that’s clever, but just damaging through a gate is a bad thing.

Learn how to place arrow carts, supply traps and how to destroy rams the proper ways rather than a cheese, non counter play mechanic. Stop them building rams in the first place and your life will be far easier.

Just saying it’s a broken mechanic doesn’t make it so… creative treb placement IS a way to “siege towers better”. If you’re smart, you can counter nearly any defensive treb. What makes this game interesting is having to think ahead several steps of strategy to take an objective (as someone said above, chess, not checkers). With the power of rams with mastery without the treb counter, zergs will win… one dimensional and boring. An AC (even superior) just doesn’t do enough dps to destroy the rams before even a reinforced gate goes down. And outmanned servers often don’t have the manpower to babysit and be there before the zerg arrives to steal supply and prevent the rams from being built. The way trebs work now, it’s an equalizer. It gives us small servers a chance, and it makes defending fun. Again, please don’t take this away, Anet!

Thanks!

Apologies but your wrong. Two superior ac’s in good positions can take out any rams at any door. If your that into strategy and “forward” thinking, then place supply traps at key points to deny the opportunities to even place rams. Don’t be lazy and sit on a treb that nobody can destroy.

There is no such thing as creative treb placement. It’s lazy game play. It’s not needed and has zero counter to it. If a server has more numbers than you and you don’t have good siege placement in a way of traps and arrow carts, you deserve the loose the tower.

Arrow carts are the siege for anti zergs. You focus fire two superior ac’s on the same place, for around 30 seconds, you will force numbers away.

It’s a Broken mechanic. It’s an OBVIOUS broken mechanic. That’s the reason they changed catapults. No counter play. If you find sitting on a treb and hitting a gate fun, then good for you. That’s totally boring to me and has no logistical thinking required.

However, like I’ve already stated, poison through a door I’m perfectly happy with. Damage is unacceptable.

Ha, you think two superior arrow carts can do anything against a superior force? We had two superior flame rams down, both players on them with mastery, and 2-3 eles using water fields on their position. Neither player went down, and the gates went down with the superior flame rams still at 20% health. That’s just with us using two. I’ve seen forces using 4-5 on a gate if there are 2 superior AC with no treb hitting the spot. The second a treb hits the spot, they back off because they can’t handle a treb and 2 superior AC at the same time on their position.

KarlusDavius.1024:

Apologies but your wrong. Two superior ac’s in good positions can take out any rams at any door.

With your logic, then, why wouldn’t the 2 superior ACs be considered “broken” and unfair?

The difference is, with the treb, 1 person can make a difference in defending a tower if they plan ahead, spend 100 supply (often times running back and forth to a camp for 10 minutes) and watch the map. My guess is that you’re on a high population server and get mad when people stop your karma train.

There ARE ways of taking out trebs… you just have to be smart and plan ahead. Don’t you think that’s more fun than just “throw down rams… take tower… rinse… repeat….”?

Vyceloch.1285:

KarlusDavius.1024:

Apologies but your wrong. Two superior ac’s in good positions can take out any rams at any door.

With your logic, then, why wouldn’t the 2 superior ACs be considered “broken” and unfair?

The difference is, with the treb, 1 person can make a difference in defending a tower if they plan ahead, spend 100 supply (often times running back and forth to a camp for 10 minutes) and watch the map. My guess is that you’re on a high population server and get mad when people stop your karma train.

There ARE ways of taking out trebs… you just have to be smart and plan ahead. Don’t you think that’s more fun than just “throw down rams… take tower… rinse… repeat….”?

I’m assuming it’s just T1 QQing about the tactic. We use it all the time in T2 on down, because it means that we don’t have to worry about not making it to defense on time when we’re on other maps, our one person will be able to hold them off long enough to get there. Remember, T2 and below can at most queue 2 maps, we can’t pull off anything more than that.

there is servers where sides are not outnumbered. to balance game according to lowest rank servers is a bad idea. debuff AC’s also.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Vyceloch.1285:

KarlusDavius.1024:

Apologies but your wrong. Two superior ac’s in good positions can take out any rams at any door.

With your logic, then, why wouldn’t the 2 superior ACs be considered “broken” and unfair?

The difference is, with the treb, 1 person can make a difference in defending a tower if they plan ahead, spend 100 supply (often times running back and forth to a camp for 10 minutes) and watch the map. My guess is that you’re on a high population server and get mad when people stop your karma train.

There ARE ways of taking out trebs… you just have to be smart and plan ahead. Don’t you think that’s more fun than just “throw down rams… take tower… rinse… repeat….”?

I’m assuming it’s just T1 QQing about the tactic. We use it all the time in T2 on down, because it means that we don’t have to worry about not making it to defense on time when we’re on other maps, our one person will be able to hold them off long enough to get there. Remember, T2 and below can at most queue 2 maps, we can’t pull off anything more than that.

Don’t assume too hard. We sometimes have more than 1 door treb defending a gate simply because of how fast they melt. A door treb is quite literally the only viable defensive siege right now because superior ACs don’t do enough damage to siege and ballistas don’t have line of sight from behind a gate. A catapult can slow down rammers due to its greater knockback, but not nearly as viable as a treb if you’re a lone defender.

Kraag Deadsoul.2789:

4) Those defenders behind the treb are skill-less noobs. If they were any good, they’d come out from behind their treb and their walls and engage us in a fair fight like manly men!

I actually admire people who can use Treb effectively to eliminate other people’s treb or rams because it requires WAYYYY more skills and experience to effectively aim the Treb in correct distance within the very short period of time.

A group of people with 2~3 superior rams and 2~3 ram mastery tear down doors way too quickly that if you don’t immediately aim the Treb to the location within the first few tries of trebbing, you will lose your tower/ keep. Furthermore, if you want to destroy opponents’ treb before they destroy yours, you have to outplay them and aim exactly at their location before they do the same to you.

In my opinion, using treb effectively has the HIGHEST SKILL CAP among all the siege weapons, and anyone who can use it effectively is among some of the most skillful and experienced WvW players, and can proved to be extremely useful to your server.

Anyone who call the people who mount on treb and aim correctly noob is pretty much way noober themselves.

Seems you just don’t know how to secure keeps without a broken mechanic helping you out. If you want those rams down, you push the force back and go kill them yourselves.

I don’t get why people kitten and moan about karma trains and what not. Seriously, reducing to insults is pathetic. Get over yourselves. It’s. Broken mechanic and will spice WvW up Ina. Fantastic manner with the new season. You might actually have to fight instead of stopping in your tower hitting 2 every few seconds.

You might want to flip your argument around and ask a treb can completely destroy a small forces chances of taking a keep because one person can easily destroy all rams or siege and supply in your small team at a gate. It actually hinders small groups far more than zergs.

KarlusDavius.1024:

Seems you just don’t know how to secure keeps without a broken mechanic helping you out. If you want those rams down, you push the force back and go kill them yourselves.

I don’t get why people kitten and moan about karma trains and what not. Seriously, reducing to insults is pathetic. Get over yourselves. It’s. Broken mechanic and will spice WvW up Ina. Fantastic manner with the new season. You might actually have to fight instead of stopping in your tower hitting 2 every few seconds.

You might want to flip your argument around and ask a treb can completely destroy a small forces chances of taking a keep because one person can easily destroy all rams or siege and supply in your small team at a gate. It actually hinders small groups far more than zergs.

Sure, small group with 5 people and throw a superior ram in front of door + ram lv3 takes SOOO much skill.

If what you said is so easy to do, then my small zerg group wont have so many success just by throwing a superior ram and break the door.
Not many people can use Treb or BOTHER use Treb effectively, that’s why small zerg can have alot more success than you imagined.

Not to mention you only waste 50 supplies even if you got destroyed by treb, and if no treb’s stopping you, usually it’s a free tower capture that requires ZERO skill.

KarlusDavius.1024:

Seems you just don’t know how to secure keeps without a broken mechanic helping you out. If you want those rams down, you push the force back and go kill them yourselves.

I don’t get why people kitten and moan about karma trains and what not. Seriously, reducing to insults is pathetic. Get over yourselves. It’s. Broken mechanic and will spice WvW up Ina. Fantastic manner with the new season. You might actually have to fight instead of stopping in your tower hitting 2 every few seconds.

You might want to flip your argument around and ask a treb can completely destroy a small forces chances of taking a keep because one person can easily destroy all rams or siege and supply in your small team at a gate. It actually hinders small groups far more than zergs.

Here’s a better question, why do you assume people just leave if we can’t get the gate open? If the gate is impossible to open due to treb, we cata the wall down. Short of that one person getting off and becoming an easy target on the wall, there is no way that treb can help while the wall is going down. Stop acting like the treb destroys all hopes of taking a keep/tower when all it does is stop people from trying to take the main gate, it still leaves the 3+ walls open for taking down (which IMO are way easier to take down).

This change would be awful I said as much and more in the other thread…

That’s the POINT! Nothing should be impossible! It should be tough but never impossible. That Is why DAMAGE behind the door to objects the other side I feel is wrong and broken. However, nobody has picked up on the fact that I feel poison cows draining supply is fine.

One person should SLOW an assault down, not totally stop it in its tracks. Hence why supply drain is a good idea. Yes they get, let’s say, bay outer door down! however if you time a cow at the gate (which takes no skill at all), when the whole opposing group is building a ram, your draining a huge amount of supply. In addition, placing a supply trap just behind the gate when they breech can slow a group down and take out all siege options. That’s clever play and good tactics and play.

Sitting on a treb destroying anything behind a gate with no counter play is boring and takes no skill. Spam spam spam until there down, rinse and repeat.

Now, if they take the damage away, as they should, I’m happy for the secondary effect of a knock back to still apply. Again, it slows an attack down, doesn’t stop it, just slows until a few more people show up and you can put more pressure.

That said, I’d prefer them to replace all the keeps with EOTM style towers that protect oil more, which would solve the problem everyone has in the first place that Oil is too easy to destroy. Meaning limited options for defensive play anyway!

If your server is outmanned, chances are they will just stack up and PvD anyway. Slow, but still effective when having huge numbers.

KarlusDavius.1024:

Sitting on a treb destroying anything behind a gate with no counter play is boring and takes no skill. Spam spam spam until there down, rinse and repeat.

I just remembered a counter we’ve used for door trebbing. If there’s an opening above the gate like towers and some keep gates have, you can actually take down the treb from outside. Set down an arrow cart outside of the treb’s door blast radius, and fire IN at a spot that will hit the treb. You’ll be doing large amounts of damage to it and possibly the player inside, forcing the player to back off from the treb and allowing you to break it.

We’ve used this tactic in Eternal and in the borderlands to stop the door trebs in towers and some of them in the keeps. Again though, it requires that there be a hole over the gate so you can see the treb inside. Add a hole above the gates that don’t have them in the keeps, and then all door trebs can be countered.

what is the source of this rumor

KarlusDavius.1024:

That’s the POINT! Nothing should be impossible! It should be tough but never impossible.

I’ve said a number of times that it’s NOT impossible to take out the counter trebs in a tower… there are several ways to do so, and I’ve done it many times. Scout the tower. Oh, look, a door treb… let’s not place rams until we take it out. Use any of a number of methods, or, if you can’t figure out how to, go with catas. Using a door treb is no more simple or broken than using an AC, or ram or golem for that matter… why reduce the complexity of siege strategy?

insanemaniac.2456:

what is the source of this rumor

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/wuv/wuv/Cannon-destroying-rams-through-gate/first

I wanted to get it out there to Anet that I don’t think it’s a good idea, if the rumor’s true…

Vyceloch.1285:

insanemaniac.2456:

what is the source of this rumor

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/wuv/wuv/Cannon-destroying-rams-through-gate/first

I wanted to get it out there to Anet that I don’t think it’s a good idea, if the rumor’s true…

that post was unsubstantiated to my knowledge
feb 14 RU and this one dont mention wvw.

additionally, there is a precedent for the devs to make no balance changes during the season (but throw that out the window if the feature patch comes on the 18th or 25th). they arguably didnt stick to those guns with the much hated toxic crap in season 1, but no bugs were fixed, no wxp mastery lines were added, etc etc… and treb functionality would fall under that sort of thing.

i remain skeptical.

insanemaniac.2456:

Vyceloch.1285:

insanemaniac.2456:

what is the source of this rumor

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/wuv/wuv/Cannon-destroying-rams-through-gate/first

I wanted to get it out there to Anet that I don’t think it’s a good idea, if the rumor’s true…

that post was unsubstantiated to my knowledge
feb 14 RU and this one dont mention wvw.

additionally, there is a precedent for the devs to make no balance changes during the season (but throw that out the window if the feature patch comes on the 18th or 25th). they arguably didnt stick to those guns with the much hated toxic crap in season 1, but no bugs were fixed, no wxp mastery lines were added, etc etc… and treb functionality would fall under that sort of thing.

i remain skeptical.

I hope you’re right! I just thought it was important enough to comment on in case it was true…

KarlusDavius.1024:

Apologies but your wrong. Two superior ac’s in good positions can take out any rams at any door. If your that into strategy and “forward” thinking, then place supply traps at key points to deny the opportunities to even place rams. Don’t be lazy and sit on a treb that nobody can destroy.

There is no such thing as creative treb placement. It’s lazy game play. It’s not needed and has zero counter to it. If a server has more numbers than you and you don’t have good siege placement in a way of traps and arrow carts, you deserve the loose the tower.

Arrow carts are the siege for anti zergs. You focus fire two superior ac’s on the same place, for around 30 seconds, you will force numbers away.

It’s a Broken mechanic. It’s an OBVIOUS broken mechanic. That’s the reason they changed catapults. No counter play. If you find sitting on a treb and hitting a gate fun, then good for you. That’s totally boring to me and has no logistical thinking required.

However, like I’ve already stated, poison through a door I’m perfectly happy with. Damage is unacceptable.

Ah, yes. And here we have counter-argument #5. Thanks for adding it to the list and contributing to the discussion.

Now for the rebuttal. And note, I’m going to use the same approach you took with your counter to counter you in return.

You: Don’t be lazy and sit on a treb that nobody can destroy.

Don’t be lazy and think that throwing down rams should = game over. If there’s a treb inside of a tower defending the gate, make the effort to take it out before you start ramming the gate.

But wait, your pièce de résistance of a counter argument follows…

You: There is no such thing as creative treb placement. It’s lazy game play. It’s not needed and has zero counter to it.

There is no such thing as creative ram placement, either. It’s lazy game play.

Have a zerg outnumbering their opponent 10-to-1 throw down a few rams. Superior arrow carts will not do sufficient damage in time to prevent the gate from being breached. Even if they are successful in destroying the ram(s), the zerg – outnumbering the defenders – can keep them pinned down inside the tower or keep they’re defending while running to resupply at the nearest camp unopposed. They simply build new rams and continue chipping away at the gate.

Even in the presence of superior arrow carts, it’s a foregone conclusion the gate will fall. Trebs become the sole force equalizer in such a scenario.

I said it before and I’ll say it again: There is nowhere inside of any tower or keep that a treb can be placed that can’t be countered by an appropriately placed siege weapon. Oftentimes this will be a counter-treb of your own. You considering trebbing boring does not invalidate it as a counter. Defenders have a treb inside? Build a treb to destroy it, then place the rams. Alternately, take down a wall with catapults or trebs instead of going for the gate.

Just because your karma train run is being inconvenienced is not sufficient reason to take from defenders one of their last lines of defense when facing an outnumbered situation.

You: If a server has more numbers than you and you don’t have good siege placement in a way of traps and arrow carts, you deserve the loose the tower.

Who died and made you king of WvW? How presumptious and arrogant of you. You don’t get to dictate what constitutes good siege placement or who is deserving of what in WvW.

If a defender stops you from taking their fortification – regardless of how they accomplish it – then whatever strategy and tactics they employed were effective; whether that be supply traps, arrow carts, trebs, or simply your inability to think outside the box to which you’ve constrained yourself, failure to analyze the entire situation, and failure to formulate a solution beyond “Me zerg, me have more numbers, me smash gate, me WIN!”

Aomine.5012:

Kraag Deadsoul.2789:

4) Those defenders behind the treb are skill-less noobs. If they were any good, they’d come out from behind their treb and their walls and engage us in a fair fight like manly men!

I actually admire people who can use Treb effectively to eliminate other people’s treb or rams because it requires WAYYYY more skills and experience to effectively aim the Treb in correct distance within the very short period of time.

A group of people with 2~3 superior rams and 2~3 ram mastery tear down doors way too quickly that if you don’t immediately aim the Treb to the location within the first few tries of trebbing, you will lose your tower/ keep. Furthermore, if you want to destroy opponents’ treb before they destroy yours, you have to outplay them and aim exactly at their location before they do the same to you.

In my opinion, using treb effectively has the HIGHEST SKILL CAP among all the siege weapons, and anyone who can use it effectively is among some of the most skillful and experienced WvW players, and can proved to be extremely useful to your server.

Anyone who call the people who mount on treb and aim correctly noob is pretty much way noober themselves.

Understand I’m in favor of using trebs defensively. I was offering up the potential counter-arguments that those opposed to such treb use will attempt to use as rebuttals and then de-constructing them. In other words, I’m on your side

KarlusDavius.1024:

Seems you just don’t know how to secure keeps without a broken mechanic helping you out. If you want those rams down, you push the force back and go kill them yourselves.

Riiiiight. When a force that outnumbers mine 10-to-1 rolls up to the door, we’re not going to be pushing them back. And yes, this is a common occurrence on the server on which I play wherein 3 of us may be defending a tower or keep against 30 of the enemy.

KarlusDavius.1024:

I don’t get why people kitten and moan about karma trains and what not. Seriously, reducing to insults is pathetic. Get over yourselves. It’s. Broken mechanic and will spice WvW up Ina. Fantastic manner with the new season. You might actually have to fight instead of stopping in your tower hitting 2 every few seconds.

When numbers are relatively even, then fighting your way through a siege at the gate is a viable option. Not so much when grossly outnumbered.

KarlusDavius.1024:

You might want to flip your argument around and ask a treb can completely destroy a small forces chances of taking a keep because one person can easily destroy all rams or siege and supply in your small team at a gate. It actually hinders small groups far more than zergs.

Because I can think outside the box and would never be stupid enough to build rams at a gate defended by a door treb. I either figure out how to destroy that treb or I attack a wall. If I find a door treb at a gate, I don’t QQ about it. Instead I compliment my adversary on being smarter than the average bear, then go about figuring out how to outsmart them.

@ KarlDavius, not all worlds have 20 people in each keep waiting for a possible incoming so they can wipe em, nor they have 5 superior acs on all gates manned when there are incoming, so a treb behind gate can buy some time for reinforcements to get in.

If you take out that last bit of defense, broken mechanic or not, there is not really any incentive to defend anymore since cannons and oil, well ya know with aoe spam, are useless. But if they really going to change it so trebs cant hit through gates anymore, then i propose gates will get at least 50% more HP as all siege has been buffed with mastery lines and structures are still same HP from release

Ohh yea, remove PvD aswell, moronic mechanic

I sincerely hope arena net take damage away. It amazes me the comments here that say it’s the only viable defence. I would throw down a counter to your counter but I feel it will fall on deaf, lazy ears.

Enjoy

what they should really do is make the cannon or oil upgrade operate like the skyhammer spvp laser with the controls in the lord’s room. Something that floats above the tower out of range of players but would be able to be killed by a ballista/cata/treb/omegas.

KarlusDavius.1024:

I sincerely hope arena net take damage away. It amazes me the comments here that say it’s the only viable defence. I would throw down a counter to your counter but I feel it will fall on deaf, lazy ears.

Please do give a counter… it’s good to have conversation about both sides. However, so far there haven’t been offered any good options other than “get on some AC’s” and “use supply traps”.

As others say, ACs just don’t do the job. Superior rams can get the gates down before they’re destroyed and the zerg can just keep healing the rammers.

As for stealing supply, that works fine if you’re waiting in the tower before the zerg gets there, but most of the time (especially on my server where we sometimes have just a handful defending) you have to respond to swords on towers, and the rams are already up when you get in… stealing supply makes no difference.

It just doesn’t leave any good defensive options if you’re fighting outmanned… I’d be happy to hear if you have any other suggestions than the above.

KarlusDavius.1024:

I sincerely hope arena net take damage away. It amazes me the comments here that say it’s the only viable defence. I would throw down a counter to your counter but I feel it will fall on deaf, lazy ears.

Enjoy

“I have a counter argument, but I won’t tell you it because I don’t want to”

Winning hearts and minds 101…

Substance E.4852:

“I have a counter argument, but I won’t tell you it because I don’t want to”

Winning hearts and minds 101…

Twisting words since 1754BC…

I think Far Shiverpeaks and Cmdr Kiro should lead the way and refrain from building door trebs for defense of towers and keeps. I say, try it for three weeks then get back to us with the results.

Already do. If they are they I don’t use them. I build arrow carts then push out to take the rams down. Not really hard unless you use to sitting on a treb.

However people do use them on FSP. If it’s there it can be used, however that doesn’t mean it’s not a broken mechanic. If it was something arena net wanted and liked, they wouldn’t have changed catapults (who do far less damage to arms when they could hit.)

Ive given plenty of reasons against the mechanic. I’ve also said that if arena bet hadn’t made oil so kitten easy to destroy the problem wouldn’t exist. Fixing the mechanic is a good thing. However they do need to change a hell of a lot of other things in order to adjust the balance. I’d much prefer to use oil than a treb, those things do insane damage to groups who don’t kill them

Lets skip the realistic part because if it was about realism trebs and catapults should insta kill everyone they hit head on,and the rest should had been knocked down and not knocked back to make sure they dont die from concetrated fire.
As far balance 1-2 trebs behind a gate are really meaningless if you count that superior rams with masteries do stupid dmg to gate and that rammers stack stability and reduction to stupid proportions.
50% reduction from ram mastery+5% from siege bunker and then we could always take a slight peek at frost aura and protection and there is the reason we started haveing trebs behind gates.
And even then i have seen blobs scoff at two trebs firing at gate or 2-3 superior carts focusing on them because of the constant healing and protection uptime.
Anet is just catering to zerg needs because the more happy customers the more income.
They just need to break some eggs for the omelette ,and guess who the eggs are.

KarlusDavius.1024:

Substance E.4852:

“I have a counter argument, but I won’t tell you it because I don’t want to”

Winning hearts and minds 101…

Twisting words since 1754BC…

I’m not sure that phrase means what you think it means…

This is nothing new. We used to put catas behind gates to damage rams until anet fixed that. The only reason Trebs damage rams behind gate is because or a regression in the code.

It should be patched and fixed that trebs and catas cant damage rams behind a gate just like before when the game was working.

The fact that none of you remember or know that ANET has fixed this issue before shows that you guys are just noobs abusing an old bug that has been re-enabled due to bad programing.

Warlord.9074:

The fact that none of you remember or know that ANET has fixed this issue before shows that you guys are just noobs abusing an old bug that has been re-enabled due to bad programing.

I’d be more than happy to not use trebuchets and catapults to damage gates from behind if there were some other reasonable way to place and use siege from inside of a fortification that couldn’t be destroyed the attacks of enemies not using counter siege weapons.

Right now, there is almost no pay-off for defensive play and the door treb is one of the only good ways to defend fully upgraded towers against enemies when the populations vary widely over time are severely imbalanced, which happens quite a bit on the low-tier servers. I understand that there are practical reasons why taking a tower or keep shouldn’t normally be a multi-hour project for a large group, particularly when it’s weakly defended, but flipping towers and keeps in minutes so that that zerging is like riding the champion train in Queensdale also seems pretty absurd to me, too.

Berk.8561:

Warlord.9074:

The fact that none of you remember or know that ANET has fixed this issue before shows that you guys are just noobs abusing an old bug that has been re-enabled due to bad programing.

I’d be more than happy to not use trebuchets and catapults to damage gates from behind if there were some other reasonable way to place and use siege from inside of a fortification that couldn’t be destroyed the attacks of enemies not using counter siege weapons.

Right now, there is almost no pay-off for defensive play and the door treb is one of the only good ways to defend fully upgraded towers against enemies when the populations vary widely over time are severely imbalanced, which happens quite a bit on the low-tier servers. I understand that there are practical reasons why taking a tower or keep shouldn’t normally be a multi-hour project for a large group, particularly when it’s weakly defended, but flipping towers and keeps in minutes so that that zerging is like riding the champion train in Queensdale also seems pretty absurd to me, too.

Quoted for Truth.