Guild Wars 2

The Trebuchet and other seige weapons need to be brought in line with more common sense ranges. 10,000 meters for a trebuchet is simply stupid, even in a fantasy setting. Even the 50,000 pound seige engine, french Gigantine barely reached 650 meters with a 80 pound rock, 450m with a 300 pound rock.

Trebuchets need to be a max of 1000 meters in-game or the range system in-game needs a serious rework for seige calculations. I cannot see the ANET team making a blunder this big or deciding to fudge ranges based on fantasy gaming ranges.

Granted this is all fantasy and the ranges can be whatever Anet wants but i will simply call it ridiculous.

The fix. Since ranges seem at a premium in this game due to fantasy physics the Treb range needs to be cut in half at the very least, more actually. While 5k is still to far for a treb, i doubt folks want to close to actual ranges even the big seige trebs used as they are comfortable with what they are using now. Still it needs to change before folks become to dependant on range as it is now, i see way to many folks enjoying setting a treb out of reach and lobbing a rock a simulated two miles.

Any ranged weapon used for seige needs to be re-evaluated by Anet for range and placement purposes. Right now folks are getting to use to the bad mechanics in place.

While fixing weapons ranges may be a huge task it is something that needs to be done at once. What people assume is X or Y distance is not.

This includes player max ranged los/non los weapons and magic as a side note.

Are you sure the unit for range is the meter? If the trebuchet currently has a 10k meter range and IRL siege only shoots up to 450 meters…that’s less than 1/20th the range of current trebuchet range. That’s like the range of a catapult without charging it.

the distance value in the game isn’t related to any actual measurement that I can see. the 400-600m distance is much farther than you would estimate in a game like this. keep in mind how small the world has to be to be able to run everywhere.

The range is related to all distance measurements in the game. It’s not 10,000 meters, it’s 10,000 units. Out of combat movement speed is 300 units per second, for example. I don’t actually have a problem with it just being units… of no specific type, it’s just something I’ve gotten used to. When you start bringing real world units of measurement in… you start noticing that things are out proportionally (like ceilngs and doorways for example).

I think the trebuchet’s s range should be brought down to 9000, it’s damaged upped a bit, and its cost dropped down to 15-20 silvers. That would put them just out of range of neighboring fortifications, so realms can’t treb their way to victory from behind walls.

OoC speed = 300 units / second

Average human jogging speed = 2.78 meters / second (10 km / hour) let’s round to 3 for easy math

1 unit = 1 centimeter (.01 meters)

Treb range = 10,000 units = 100 meters.

So, if we took “real” distance into account based on the perspective of the character, we should increase the range by 4.5x the amount

hahah, do you even know the distance of 10,000 meters is? Because if you did it would be pretty obvious that the range of the in-game treb is not 10,000 meters

aeroh.8930:

I think the trebuchet’s s range should be brought down to 9000, it’s damaged upped a bit, and its cost dropped down to 15-20 silvers. That would put them just out of range of neighboring fortifications, so realms can’t treb their way to victory from behind walls.

This is precisely the reason for the trebs current distance and price though. It means in order to take a fortified garrison/keep you must first take the towers around it in order to set up strategically placed trebs that are relatively safe from the enemy. It’s a good mechanic IMO and one that is only resorted to (because of the price and time commitment) when something is fortified enough to make knocking on the doors a death sentence.
NOTE: I spend 95% of my time in the Borderlands.

just food for though, players run probably a guess of about 5-6 mph. which is around 2.5 meters per second. and it takes 6 seconds to run the 1200 range, so 1200 range is technically about 15 meters. multiply by 10 for the range of mortars (belive they are 12000), and you have 150 meters distance on them.

if you want realistic ranges, that means that a 450 meter range with a 300 pound rock (looks like a 300 pound rock that gets tossed… on fire). would be more like a 40,000 range on trebs.

not exact math but its far better than your poor excuse for addition

edit, just saw epsilon’s post… what he said.

OP still not too bright

also… id like to note..

OP.. you may want to remove your signature

OP.. you may want to remove your signature

There is no worse feeling than that during an argument, you realize you are wrong.

Salamol.7963:

The range is related to all distance measurements in the game. It’s not 10,000 meters, it’s 10,000 units. Out of combat movement speed is 300 units per second, for example. I don’t actually have a problem with it just being units… of no specific type, it’s just something I’ve gotten used to. When you start bringing real world units of measurement in… you start noticing that things are out proportionally (like ceilngs and doorways for example).

This. Treb doesn’t fire 10,000m. It fires 10,000 units.

If you started nerfing the Treb’s range, you’d completely alter the WvW metagame to the point of breaking it. There’s a reason why the treb has that long a range. It’s so that you can shell neighboring towers and keeps from fortified positions.

@Kracin, you looked foolish doing that, next time take the time to read before you post.

lets get this back on track. Range again. We have all seen Anets explanation of units, i am not arguing that, what i am challenging is the perceived and “real” distance values ingame for seige weaponry.

Anyone typing on this thread should have already did their math and got the actual meters, feet, inches, units, or whatever you like to use and then compare them to the actual usage ingame. I figured them out before i posted the first time, maybe some folks need to do the same. For example the Treb has a unit measurement of 254 meters give or take a meter according to Anet, 10000 units, actual distance ingame is far far greater, and the reason i state it looks like 10k meters, because it does.

No one will tell me a Treb firing from a cliff and reaching a keep more than a certain “percieved” distance is correct, anyone playing WvWvW knows what i am referring to, even flat on the ground trebs fire much to far. Even with calculations for height/angle, etc, etc the treb still would not reach the distances it does currently.

If we were to get picky, an arrow cart has a much greater range in seige but is a one shot deal if you are familiar with how they are employed and loaded, the other seiges weapons have their own range and proper use issues.

The idea of WvWvW is to have fun, and not make zergs the point of being in there in the first place, but improper ranges and seige weapon usage issues make the turnover simply silly.

Seige seems to have been left of of WvWvW and instead we have toys that are capable of taking down keeps, etc in minutes in some instances. if you like the current status quo of seige weaponry they dont speak up, but fixes would do so much to enjoyment for a whole slew of reasons.

Maybe a treb firing from extrordinary distance is what anet wants, instead of keeps taking a few days to a week to take down in real time maybe anet likes the few minute turnovers that happen frequently.

Personally i would like supply to mean something for seige/ranges. trebs, arrowcarts etc, need to have limited ammo, supply should be needed to keep them firing and the ammo type of supply should determine ranges once seige ranges have been addressed and fixed properly.

A treb setup for an assault needs to “LOOK” like it is only 254 meters (10,000 game units for the purists) away according to Anets math, this will force them being protected by large forces etc and zerging for anyone would be costly as the seige units would be decimated without defense, tied with points instead of cash based the zerging might tone down a bit, then again, it might not. To those stating the “metagame” will be altered? WvWvW is not what it should be right now so metagame plays no role in this discussion.

Next discussion, supply.

Graill.8596:

the reason i state it looks like 10k meters, because it does.

No, the treb does not remotely look like it is firing 10 kilometers.

The problem here is you have a seriously distorted sense of scale.

the point of treb range is so that you can’t just turtle up in a keep, you have to send groups out to eat away at trebs health and actively defend by attack too. this is part and parcel of WvW..

in regards to realistic distances I think the trebuchets are in keeping with trebuchets in other fantasy settings such as LOTR. Siege should be exciting not an episode of scrap heap challenge.

The treb is really slow firing and created for this reason. They are beatable(sometimes*).

*My only gripe with them is when they’re able to be built in impossible to reach area’s and the only other response is counter seige. That makes me want to break things.

Just cause the range is 10k doesn’t mean that 10k stands for meters. This should be obvious if you play this game AT ALL.

Think about it. Skills like shield bash have 300 range. Is it realistic to shield bash someone 300 meters away? What about jumping/gap closers skills that typically have 600 range. Are you imagining your guy jumping 600 meters? No of course not. The number has nothing to do with real life measurement systems.

Graill.8596:

@Kracin, you looked foolish doing that, next time take the time to read before you post.

are you serious? you realize that 10,000 meters is equiv to 6.2 miles right???

and nearly every single person has told you in the nicest way that you are just plain wrong. there is no point on this map where a treb fires that it looks like its firing 6.2 miles in distance.

get your head out of your “blank”

do me a favor, learn simple math and learn to count, then stop posting because the trebs in the game fire a realistic amount of 130 meters according to player speeds and landscape

I think we get the idea that OP wants a medieval war simulation instead of a fantasy mmo. Keeps should be evening based activities to take down not week long projects. Video games have to cater to a target audience and the average gamer has 2-3 hours of night to spare maximum during this time that person needs to accomplish things.

also having giant firery rocks flying through the air overhead as you clear aoe off the walls of a keep is epic!

contracting dysentery in a medieval war simulation and losing 40% of your force to “the squats” isn’t epic

If the treb’s range was 10 000 meters, then that would mean some of our regular weapon skills could fire up to 1200 meters. Wouldn’t that be a blast? :p

Graill.8596:

The idea of WvWvW is to have fun, and not make zergs the point of being in there in the first place, but improper ranges and seige weapon usage issues make the turnover simply silly.

Seige seems to have been left of of WvWvW and instead we have toys that are capable of taking down keeps, etc in minutes in some instances. if you like the current status quo of seige weaponry they dont speak up, but fixes would do so much to enjoyment for a whole slew of reasons.

Maybe a treb firing from extrordinary distance is what anet wants, instead of keeps taking a few days to a week to take down in real time maybe anet likes the few minute turnovers that happen frequently.

Personally i would like supply to mean something for seige/ranges. trebs, arrowcarts etc, need to have limited ammo, supply should be needed to keep them firing and the ammo type of supply should determine ranges once seige ranges have been addressed and fixed properly.

A treb setup for an assault needs to “LOOK” like it is only 254 meters (10,000 game units for the purists) away according to Anets math, this will force them being protected by large forces etc and zerging for anyone would be costly as the seige units would be decimated without defense, tied with points instead of cash based the zerging might tone down a bit, then again, it might not. To those stating the “metagame” will be altered? WvWvW is not what it should be right now so metagame plays no role in this discussion.

Next discussion, supply.

While I admit that WvWvW could use a bit more strategy than just the current zerging from fort to fort and keep to keep, your suggestion of day/week long sieges just don’t work in a game.

Here’s a link to my suggestion of improving the game away from zerging, it’s also heavily supply-oriented:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Fixing-WvWvW-Supply-and-Defense/first#post320615

Heya,

From wiki page: Range

Ranges are defined in terms of game units. There are 12 units per foot, which makes them equivalent to inches. 1 meter is approximately 39.4 units.

I’m under the strict belief that trebuchets should not be able to siege other towers/keeps/castles from their relative defensive structures. I really don’t get the point and it doesn’t really fall in line with what a realistic siege would be… if anything you should have to bring your trebs with you, and place them in the field if you wish to use them to siege a castle/tower/keep.

“A siege occurs when an attacker encounters a city or fortress that cannot be easily taken by a coup de main and refuses to surrender. Sieges involve surrounding the target and blocking the reinforcement or escape of troops or provision of supplies (a tactic known as “investment”²), typically coupled with attempts to reduce the fortifications by means of siege engines, artillery bombardment, mining (also known as sapping), or the use of deception or treachery to bypass defences. Failing a military outcome, sieges can often be decided by starvation, thirst or disease, which can afflict either the attacker or defender."

Not read all the posts.

It’s not in metres as others have said, here’s some pointless maths for you too.

In game my character can run 10,000 units in 30 seconds (was working out the trebs range).

In real life I can run about 200m in 30 seconds, so the trebs range is closer to 200m and then by your workings should have a range 2 or 3 times longer

@Arkiels – Im with you on this one

How is it creative, fun, engaging to setup a trebuchet safe and secure behind a fortification and the only way to kill it is to setup another treb and have TREB WARS (maybe thats what we should call the game instead?) to see who can down the others treb first.

Now if the zones were bigger we would need to use the siege either in defense or in Open field to attack. Trebs would only be of use in a castle/keep/topwer siege. But they would need to be protected. It would almsot be like a siege is a long process that requires effort. NOT just 1 person spamming 2 to knock a wall down while the zerg is elsewhere.

People should have to protect the siege engines as well as use them. Trebs firing from Forts to hit other Forts is not what my idea of siege was.

Graill.8596:

@Kracin, you looked foolish doing that, next time take the time to read before you post.

Hmmm….

Range again. We have all seen Anets explanation of units, i am not arguing that, what i am challenging is the perceived and “real” distance values ingame for seige weaponry.

But you -are- arguing- just that. You are trying to change the definition of Guild Wars 2 “units” by trying to link them to meters but you can’t do that. You can’t just change the definition of a unit of measurement and then complain that no one else goes along with you.

A unit in Guild Wars 2 is NOT equal to one meter in the game. If I travel 1 unit in the game then the graphical representation does not have me moving what would appear to be 1 meter.

I don’t think you fully understand how far ten kilometers truly is.

Anyone typing on this thread should have already did their math and got the actual meters, feet, inches, units, or whatever you like to use and then compare them to the actual usage ingame. I figured them out before i posted the first time, maybe some folks need to do the same.

If you figured them out how did you manage to be so very wrong?

For example the Treb has a unit measurement of 254 meters give or take a meter according to Anet, 10000 units, actual distance ingame is far far greater, and the reason i state it looks like 10k meters, because it does.

You make no sense. This isn’t logical. This does not compute.

No one will tell me a Treb firing from a cliff and reaching a keep more than a certain “percieved” distance is correct, anyone playing WvWvW knows what i am referring to, even flat on the ground trebs fire much to far. Even with calculations for height/angle, etc, etc the treb still would not reach the distances it does currently.

If we were to get picky, an arrow cart has a much greater range in seige but is a one shot deal if you are familiar with how they are employed and loaded, the other seiges weapons have their own range and proper use issues.

Okay, so this is your issue: You think trebs have too great a range in game.

I have no idea how you figure that an arrow cart has a greater range. That’s…. I really don’t understand. So I’ll set that aside.

Anyway, if you are going to try and make a case for something, try to do so in a manner that is logical and doesn’t rely on making up stuff.

You think that trebs have too great a range.

You also think that it’s too easy to take out an undefended keep / tower.

Those are your points. Now try to make them.

whiran.1473:

Graill.8596:

@Kracin, you looked foolish doing that, next time take the time to read before you post.

Hmmm….

Range again. We have all seen Anets explanation of units, i am not arguing that, what i am challenging is the perceived and “real” distance values ingame for seige weaponry.

But you -are- arguing- just that. You are trying to change the definition of Guild Wars 2 “units” by trying to link them to meters but you can’t do that. You can’t just change the definition of a unit of measurement and then complain that no one else goes along with you.

A unit in Guild Wars 2 is NOT equal to one meter in the game. If I travel 1 unit in the game then the graphical representation does not have me moving what would appear to be 1 meter.

I don’t think you fully understand how far ten kilometers truly is.

Anyone typing on this thread should have already did their math and got the actual meters, feet, inches, units, or whatever you like to use and then compare them to the actual usage ingame. I figured them out before i posted the first time, maybe some folks need to do the same.

If you figured them out how did you manage to be so very wrong?

For example the Treb has a unit measurement of 254 meters give or take a meter according to Anet, 10000 units, actual distance ingame is far far greater, and the reason i state it looks like 10k meters, because it does.

You make no sense. This isn’t logical. This does not compute.

No one will tell me a Treb firing from a cliff and reaching a keep more than a certain “percieved” distance is correct, anyone playing WvWvW knows what i am referring to, even flat on the ground trebs fire much to far. Even with calculations for height/angle, etc, etc the treb still would not reach the distances it does currently.

If we were to get picky, an arrow cart has a much greater range in seige but is a one shot deal if you are familiar with how they are employed and loaded, the other seiges weapons have their own range and proper use issues.

Okay, so this is your issue: You think trebs have too great a range in game.

I have no idea how you figure that an arrow cart has a greater range. That’s…. I really don’t understand. So I’ll set that aside.

Anyway, if you are going to try and make a case for something, try to do so in a manner that is logical and doesn’t rely on making up stuff.

You think that trebs have too great a range.

You also think that it’s too easy to take out an undefended keep / tower.

Those are your points. Now try to make them.

I think the point here is, the trebs have to great of a range, or the keeps/towers/castles don’t have enough between them, and I think everyone can agree on that.

Fantasy ranges aside, range needs to be shorter at least on trebs.. sitting in different keeps lobbing stones at each other is.. silly at best.

Not that I necessarily agree with this sentiment, but what about axing trebuchets altogether and increasing the range of catapults a bit?

I think the point here is, the trebs have to great of a range, or the keeps/towers/castles don’t have enough between them, and I think everyone can agree on that.

i dont think trebs have toogreat of a range. they are actually dead on for what they should be, but the problem people face is that people are finding better spots to put them and know where a treb can go and what it can hit by using a height advantage. and then the problem becomes.

“oh kitten, they are trebbing durios, anzalias, wildreek, and the north overlook……. all from stonemist!!!…. what do we do captain”

“we build trebs… we treb their treb before their treb sees our trebs and trebs us all to our own trebgrave….. " trebception.

i personally love trebs and dont think they should be changed, i actually find that i have to put it to close for comfort sometimes, depending on what im trebbing, i have not see a spot where you can place a treb and have it untouchable yet still effective, even in the garrison, if you have a problem with a treb go do something about it, they are usually minorly defended due to the fact that most people think that once its up it is safe in its spot.

A group of 5 can rush a treb from behind and take it out before the other side can react in most cases.

Trebuchets should just not placable inside of keeps and castles. Let them be a field siege unit that is intended to be protected by players, not two gates of the most fortified structures on the map.

As it stands, anyone who can make a simple macro can just set one up and just auto fire from Stonemist/EB keeps/Garrison/etc and kill your wall while watching Donnie Darko in the other room while knowing they’re pretty much completely safe from any simple retaliation. Find me anything else that is so easy to operate and so effective.

Lol 10000m? 10km? Where did you even get that number? It would take an average of 2 hours running from the treb to the target point for it to be 10km.

The range is fine, pretty much within expectations, it can’t really be much longer, because of the engine limitations and the fog, you can barely see where the treb hits as it is.

“To those stating the “metagame” will be altered? WvWvW is not what it should be right now so metagame plays no role in this discussion.”

Can you link someplace where someone from Arenanet said they were unhappy with the current state of WvW? Because if you can’t, you are just automatically promoting your (not community-supported) opinion to a fact. An opinion, I might add, that’s not even supported by proper points, since we can all agree that real-life comparisons are void when taking into account this is a fantasy-based MMO.