Guild Wars 2

I was reading another post about scouting and realized it is a lot to type in a timely fashion all the while dodging the enemies.

The team chat can also be cluttered with pug commanders shouting at the pugs, other pugs shouting at pugs not following commands, pugs shouting back better ideas how to lead, etc.

So an idea for an easy, fast, clear, uncluttered tool for scouts:

Trick: Marker
Applies 30 seconds of Marked on any visible enemies in the area.
Costs 10 supplies to use.
Range 1200.
Radius 600.

Optionally also applies Marked on siege making those visible on the map. Each siege type having a unique symbol.

Your scouts shouldn’t be typing anything. They should be in TS/discord/whatever, giving verbal scouting reports. It’s much quicker, and a lot more accurate. The traps would be easily avoided, anyway. Commanders would have 1-2 people to get marked, the same way they do now with sentries.

A trick, not a trap. The kind you throw at the enemy zerg.

zhonnika.1784:

Your scouts shouldn’t be typing anything. They should be in TS/discord/whatever, giving verbal scouting reports. It’s much quicker, and a lot more accurate. The traps would be easily avoided, anyway. Commanders would have 1-2 people to get marked, the same way they do now with sentries.

not everyone uses voice coms. not everyone CAN use voice coms. do you not want a scout report from someone like my husband typed out if he sees the enemy simply because he is deaf and can’t use TS? or the young player who’s parents haven’t bought them a headset? or the guy who usually has a headset, but it broke and he hasn’t replaced it yet? or the person with a heavy accent or speech impediment? or… or… or… you get the idea.

voice is a valuable tool, but to use it ONLY excludes those who aren’t using it, for whatever reason.

that being said… this trick marker is an interesting idea.. it has potential to be useful.

If your scout/person is within 1200 range and sees the enemy (with w.e. siege) it seems it being a throw-able trick is redundant? They would just say “20 YB at paper tower.” They are better off throwing Siege Disabler.

It would be more useful to revamp the Stealth Disruptor Trap to apply “marked” so it will see more use (it’s kind of in a joke state atm). Probably a better tool that helps those who already scout. I would say only keep it 15 seconds in duration so map awareness is more critical.

Or you could always increase sentries (they force larger forces to stop if they don’t want to be marked)!

In the end it all boils down to the usefulness of marking, which deters larger forces compared to marking a few roamers.

Mark = Knowing Locations of Enemies
Knowing Locations of Enemies = More Fights
More Fights = Profit?

oooo. good point. tying marked to stealth disruption would be a good combo

I think this is a pretty cool idea. Why not this be a Marker Trap similar to the Supply Removal one instead of like the Siege Disabler one?

If enemies trigger it, Only You the scout can see the enemies marked for a few seconds, this would provide added value to smart scouts. It would be like letting the player deploy a sentry mechanic wherever they want, for a supply cost of course.

Having it thrown seems like a poor idea. I could see it being part of the stealth trap or perhaps as a WvW only skill or on a kit that’s available in towers, though. It should be able to reliably hit since it’s more QoL than anything.

Also, typed scouting reports are available to everyone whereas TS reports are limited by channel and TS participation. Unless one mono-blob is running the entire map, it is always better to type even if you replicate the message in TS.

Or you could do this:

Guild Upgrade: Forward Scouting I, II, III

Each rank of Forward Scouting allows a guild to spawn a banner usable only by a player currently representing it on the map. Banner lasts for up to 3 hours and is destroyed on drop. The banner grants the following abilities.

(1) Enemy sighted! — Mark your position with a pulsing beacon visible to guild members. Sends a chat message to guild chat with the numbers of enemy players within player’s line of sight (close enough to see server affiliation).

(2) Scout’s Imperative — Grants banner bearer swiftness, stability, and immunity from movement impairing conditions.

(3) Scouting Post — Grants stealth until an enemy comes within 800 units of player. Player is immobilized for duration of stealth. Player is revealed for 1 minute after leaving this mode. Scout can use other banner abilities and remain in stealth.

(4) Radar Beacon — Drops a radar beacon [imagine engineer turret]. Radar beacon marks enemy positions within 2400 units. Only one beacon may be deployed at a time.

(5)Symbiotic Rewards — applies “Scout’s Honor” buff to allied guild members. Buff gives scout kill credit for any kill tagged by allied guild members. Buff lasts for half hour.

Yes, this is a quality of life thing.

Having it as a WvW skill/tower kit is too spammable. There should be some cost. Otherwise sentries become worthless again and all players would be Marked more often than not.

If only the scout sees the dots it defeats the point of not needing to type details into chat. I also don’t like the idea of a solo scout being able to cover both sides of the map by placing a trap on the opposite keep. (yeah, im not big fan of the Watchtower either)

Why a trick rather than a trap?

• I feel having it as a trap would be too passive play.
• A trap is risky and error prone thing to place onto a moving enemy zerg.
• There is less counter play for a trick (no possibility of sending a solo runner in front of zerg).
• There is a delay before zerg triggers a trap. Trick is instant.
• As a trap it would not be able to mark siege.
• There exists a Watchtower improvement which marks enemies moving near a tower. A trap would compete directly with it.

saerni.2584:

Or you could do this:

Guild Upgrade: Forward Scouting I, II, III

Each rank of Forward Scouting allows a guild to spawn a banner usable only by a player currently representing it on the map. Banner lasts for up to 3 hours and is destroyed on drop. The banner grants the following abilities.

(1) Enemy sighted! — Mark your position with a pulsing beacon visible to guild members. Sends a chat message to guild chat with the numbers of enemy players within player’s line of sight (close enough to see server affiliation).

(2) Scout’s Imperative — Grants banner bearer swiftness, stability, and immunity from movement impairing conditions.

(3) Scouting Post — Grants stealth until an enemy comes within 800 units of player. Player is immobilized for duration of stealth. Player is revealed for 1 minute after leaving this mode. Scout can use other banner abilities and remain in stealth.

(4) Radar Beacon — Drops a radar beacon [imagine engineer turret]. Radar beacon marks enemy positions within 2400 units. Only one beacon may be deployed at a time.

(5)Symbiotic Rewards — applies “Scout’s Honor” buff to allied guild members. Buff gives scout kill credit for any kill tagged by allied guild members. Buff lasts for half hour.

For the current implementation of guild upgrades, no. The grinding barrier is too high (favoring the larger guilds), and the banner idea itself is limited to one scout per each objective with the upgrade. Having a marking trap is more ideal, since everyone has access to them including those without guilds.

As for the abilities suggested, I compared them to the trap idea below:

1. A marking/beacon/detector trap could still fulfill this role, but provide a map ping to those on said map. Having it broadcast to specific guild chat would be a coding stretch however.

2. Banner’s break bar already provide this.

3. A trap could be out providing that idea of a “scouting post.” Otherwise said person using the banner’s “scouting post” would be wasting their time scouting one area unable to move. Keeps are very large require movement, and scouting multiple objectives require far more movement. A thief could fulfill this role with stealth.

4. Again, a trap would essential be that beacon.

5. An interesting notion, not all scouts are compensated (especially non-guildies). Venom share has a similar mechanic, so this could be applied to mark traps as well.

saerni.2584:

Or you could do this:

Guild Upgrade: Forward Scouting I, II, III

Each rank of Forward Scouting allows a guild to spawn a banner usable only by a player currently representing it on the map. Banner lasts for up to 3 hours and is destroyed on drop. The banner grants the following abilities.
…
(5)Symbiotic Rewards — applies “Scout’s Honor” buff to allied guild members. Buff gives scout kill credit for any kill tagged by allied guild members. Buff lasts for half hour.

Big part of scouting is engaging enemy roamers and refreshing siege. I’d have to drop the banner to that.

Symbiotic Rewards… – I doubt any scout is motivated by loot. Maybe there is new generation of scouts waiting to step up when loot/time ratio is good enough.

Title of post could be better…was expecting to learn an actual “trick” concerning markers of some kind.

katz.8376:

zhonnika.1784:

Your scouts shouldn’t be typing anything. They should be in TS/discord/whatever, giving verbal scouting reports. It’s much quicker, and a lot more accurate. The traps would be easily avoided, anyway. Commanders would have 1-2 people to get marked, the same way they do now with sentries.

not everyone uses voice coms. not everyone CAN use voice coms. do you not want a scout report from someone like my husband typed out if he sees the enemy simply because he is deaf and can’t use TS? or the young player who’s parents haven’t bought them a headset? or the guy who usually has a headset, but it broke and he hasn’t replaced it yet? or the person with a heavy accent or speech impediment? or… or… or… you get the idea.

voice is a valuable tool, but to use it ONLY excludes those who aren’t using it, for whatever reason.

that being said… this trick marker is an interesting idea.. it has potential to be useful.

ok we get it…stop throwing stuff at us. The game is specifically tailored so that it can be played effectively without requiring voice chat. Adding more features to accommodate this is therefore appropriate. Anyone who says otherwise is fighting the ocean tide.

Korgov.7645:

Yes, this is a quality of life thing.

Having it as a WvW skill/tower kit is too spammable. There should be some cost. Otherwise sentries become worthless again and all players would be Marked more often than not.

If only the scout sees the dots it defeats the point of not needing to type details into chat. I also don’t like the idea of a solo scout being able to cover both sides of the map by placing a trap on the opposite keep. (yeah, im not big fan of the Watchtower either)

Why a trick rather than a trap?

• I feel having it as a trap would be too passive play.
• A trap is risky and error prone thing to place onto a moving enemy zerg.
• There is less counter play for a trick (no possibility of sending a solo runner in front of zerg).
• There is a delay before zerg triggers a trap. Trick is instant.
• As a trap it would not be able to mark siege.
• There exists a Watchtower improvement which marks enemies moving near a tower. A trap would compete directly with it.

I am not a fan of that guild upgrade (and quite of few outside this topic). Simply put, it is not intuitively counter-able. Furthermore, currently you can only have 1 trap at a time with the cost of badges/karma and 10 supply. This removes your fear of “spammable.” For your other points, I have associated with the numbers below:

1. “I feel having it as a trap would be to passive play.” You are going have to define what you mean by passive play. One would argue the whole idea of scouting is “passive playing.” It being a trap is to help the scout…scout. Just like other traps, it is countered by a zerg’s forward scouts/havoc.
2. “A trap is risky and error prone thing to place onto a moving zerg.” You are not trying to mark a moving zerg (though having Stealth Disruptor becoming a throwable trick could be a thing). It being a trap works similarly to current supply traps. It is placed preemptively, not reactionary.
3. “There is less counter play for a trick (no possibility of sending a solo runner in front of zerg).” You need intuitive counter play for nearly everything. Otherwise there is no “tug of war” in the game mode. It is perhaps why people dislike some of the additions into the current WvW.
4. “There is a delay before zerg triggers a trap. Trick is instant.” I don’t understand your point here. Marking favors preemptive plays, so traps make more sense. Tricks are reactive, so marking them when you already see the enemy misses the point. Again, you can state you see “20 bg at paper tower.”
5. “As a trap it would not be able to mark siege.” Marking stationary objects is meaningless if you as a scout see the force. You may as well throw a Siege Disruptor with your 10 supply instead of a Marking trick.
6. “Watchtower guild upgrade” Yes, I already stated my thoughts on this above. I would rather it removed.

Chinchilla.1785

I am not a fan of that guild upgrade (and quite of few outside this topic). Simply put, it is not intuitively counter-able. Furthermore, currently you can only have 1 trap at a time with the cost of badges/karma and 10 supply. This removes your fear of “spammable.” For your other points, I have associated with the numbers below:

1. “I feel having it as a trap would be to passive play.” You are going have to define what you mean by passive play. One would argue the whole idea of scouting is “passive playing.” It being a trap is to help the scout…scout. Just like other traps, it is countered by a zerg’s forward scouts/havoc.
2. “A trap is risky and error prone thing to place onto a moving zerg.” You are not trying to mark a moving zerg (though having Stealth Disruptor becoming a throwable trick could be a thing). It being a trap works similarly to current supply traps. It is placed preemptively, not reactionary.
3. “There is less counter play for a trick (no possibility of sending a solo runner in front of zerg).” You need intuitive counter play for nearly everything. Otherwise there is no “tug of war” in the game mode. It is perhaps why people dislike some of the additions into the current WvW.
4. “There is a delay before zerg triggers a trap. Trick is instant.” I don’t understand your point here. Marking favors preemptive plays, so traps make more sense. Tricks are reactive, so marking them when you already see the enemy misses the point. Again, you can state you see “20 bg at paper tower.”
5. “As a trap it would not be able to mark siege.” Marking stationary objects is meaningless if you as a scout see the force. You may as well throw a Siege Disruptor with your 10 supply instead of a Marking trick.
6. “Watchtower guild upgrade” Yes, I already stated my thoughts on this above. I would rather it removed.

Good points. We clearly have a different vision of this thing. I’ll try to answer each point from my POV.

My vision for this feature is to reduce typing. My heart sinks every time when I see a commander trying to milk information from a scout like “how many?” “where?” “which way they are moving?” “do they have any siege?”.

I also don’t want to create a Watchtower replacement and I think a Trap: Marker would be such. The evil thing is a direct attack against the scouting profession.

1. Passive play: Placing a trap which lasts for 1 hour and then going away waiting for someone to trigger it.
2. I would find it useful to apply Marked onto a moving zerg to easily communicate its movement. Just imagine the amount of typing needed to warn your commander catapulting Durios about an enemy zerg approaching from the gorge.
3. I feel Trick: Marker would be one of those things that does not need a counter. It is the same as scout typing very fast and accurately.
4. If it was a trap you need to place it on front of the zerg and then go wait until zerg steps on it. I don’t want that delay. Nor the risk that zerg misses the trap.
5. “3 rams on far left side of air keep mid gate” or “3 alphas against the south outer wall waiting for portal” or “catapults at fire keep south wall high up the staircase” are all valuable information.
6. No argument here.

Korgov.7645:

Good points. We clearly have a different vision of this thing. I’ll try to answer each point from my POV.

My vision for this feature is to reduce typing. My heart sinks every time when I see a commander trying to milk information from a scout like “how many?” “where?” “which way they are moving?” “do they have any siege?”.

I also don’t want to create a Watchtower replacement and I think a Trap: Marker would be such. The evil thing is a direct attack against the scouting profession.

1. Passive play: Placing a trap which lasts for 1 hour and then going away waiting for someone to trigger it.
2. I would find it useful to apply Marked onto a moving zerg to easily communicate its movement. Just imagine the amount of typing needed to warn your commander catapulting Durios about an enemy zerg approaching from the gorge.
3. I feel Trick: Marker would be one of those things that does not need a counter. It is the same as scout typing very fast and accurately.
4. If it was a trap you need to place it on front of the zerg and then go wait until zerg steps on it. I don’t want that delay. Nor the risk that zerg misses the trap.
5. “3 rams on far left side of air keep mid gate” or “3 alphas against the south outer wall waiting for portal” or “catapults at fire keep south wall high up the staircase” are all valuable information.
6. No argument here.

Yes, our views are going to differ greatly. I am currently on NA T1, and I have played T2,T3, and T6. Where I am at now, scouts will probably behave completely different from where you are now.

From my perspective, the desire “to reduce typing” falls upon the community/commander/scout. It sounds like you need a system of communication that is easily understood using more abbreviations and/or cardinal directions.(I think the forum post for scouting is too much in some areas).

On JQ (Jade Quarry) it is something like “20 YB at Ogrewatch no siege.” Or on home borderlands, “20 YB to NWT from Bay.” (Yes people call lava keep, “Bay” lol). YB being Yaks bend, and NWT being North West Tower. If you are with/near enough to the commander, then the calls given are relative to him/her with, “30 YB inc East/West/North/South of (color) tag.”

I disagree with it “destroying the scouting profession.” If the Trap range was 10,000 (treb range) or whatever absurd range the Watch Tower Buff is, that directly competes with the idea of scouts. The trap is single use per-person stationary object with 10 supply cost in an area of 1200.* If it moved around the map independently of the scout who made it, that would directly compete with the “scouting profession.” It is merely just another tool to help the scout to scout. They still have to maintain it, should it be triggered! It is merely a buffer, not a guarantee.

1. To me, passive play generally means: a play in which a person does not participate meaningfully. How “participating meaningfully” differs, but in this context: a trap means a scout participates preemptively in that given area that then allows him/her to actively scout another area. If the trap triggers on a zerg, they have the opportunity to make a scout call.

2. In T1 NA, being within 1200 range of a zerg means you will die. You will die faster if you are casting said Mark Trick with the standard casting time of 1 second. Thus, this is why I say Marking a moving zerg is meaningless in that way. If you die/don’t die you will just state the scouting information. You must think of all Tiers/Timezones when making this thing! A marking trap is universally more useful to everyone than a marking trick.

3. “I feel Trick: Marker would be one of those things that does not need a counter. It is the same as scout typing very fast and accurately.” This answers itself…theTrick: Marker isn’t necessary if the scout can make the call. Which supports the idea that this trick will see little to niche use. Again, it comes down to not typing fast, but communicating efficiently.

4. In those given instances of siege you are better off using your 10 supply to disable said objects, which in turns buys time for a force to come after a scout call is given.

I think it is very important to understand this. Whatever your community’s issues are with communication, it seems your concerns aren’t shared across the whole of the game. A throw-able mark trick (as you have laid it out) might only be convenient for you, but not the vast majority of everyone else.