Guild Wars 2

This BS also happens in PvP, and are arguably the best class for solo que.

Straegen.2938:

I would point out we are talking about a class that is mediocre at duels (and that is generous), virtually useless in zergs and marginal at best in skirmish. It even mostly sucks in sPvP outside of Decap.

If the plan is to nerf it so zerglings can fight it solo, well then go for it. However any player getting blown up by Vault spam is a fairly crappy player or got caught on cooldown (as the OP was) which can happen with any decent build.

Staff thieves are so far down on the list of “hard to beat” classes in a straight up fight it isn’t even remotely useful what is being proposed here.

And that’s the problem. You could make every skill on thief deal 10k damage, the class is still poorly designed. Because you are solely reliant on reflexes, use this or that teleport/evade/stealth in time, or you just die. Other classes get WAY more room for mistakes with all the passives, not even talking about the fact that for thieves to do meaningful damage, you have to be insanely glass to begin with.

OP complains, but 1 of those vaults wouldve OHKO’d me on my thief. Boohoo.

HoT has never been balanced, never will.

Other then this, duh, the skill needs a nerf. Just to the damage though. Removing the evade means the skill becomes unusable thanks to AoE killing you too fast.

primatos.5413:

Full Condi Tank / Troll dodge evade meta… Poor kitten overflow.

Thats the gw2 gimmick that developers love.
Actually not even a guard/DH bunker can hold/sustain as much as some classes do in non bunker stats lel… not even with a full block build that is super easy to counter, Anet killed that class to a noob trapper expect to kill, that even i feel carried and obligated when playing the class….

Cygnus.6903:

Other then this, the skill needs a nerf. Just to the damage though. Removing the evade means the skill becomes unusable thanks to AoE killing you too fast.

Theres to much AOE/cleave spam in this game, but since pve is all about that pvp needs easy press button gimmicks with side effects that migh be OR NOT balanced at all, and this reaches all classes, so Vault works this way to compensate the lack of balance…aoe/cleave spam game.

Cygnus.6903:

And that’s the problem. You could make every skill on thief deal 10k damage, the class is still poorly designed. Because you are solely reliant on reflexes, use this or that teleport/evade/stealth in time, or you just die. Other classes get WAY more room for mistakes with all the passives, not even talking about the fact that for thieves to do meaningful damage, you have to be insanely glass to begin with.

Pretty much sums up my attempts to use thief.

I have more survivability on a naked ele. Thief requires good reflexes and low latency to pull off. It’s a fascinating class though, so I haven’t given up just yet.

Ben K.6238:

Cygnus.6903:

And that’s the problem. You could make every skill on thief deal 10k damage, the class is still poorly designed. Because you are solely reliant on reflexes, use this or that teleport/evade/stealth in time, or you just die. Other classes get WAY more room for mistakes with all the passives, not even talking about the fact that for thieves to do meaningful damage, you have to be insanely glass to begin with.

Pretty much sums up my attempts to use thief.

I have more survivability on a naked ele. Thief requires good reflexes and low latency to pull off. It’s a fascinating class though, so I haven’t given up just yet.

And you shouldn’t. Even though I believe that almost all classes have been broken (either OP or just no fun) by HoT, especially what used to be my main, Thief is still very enjoyable to me. And I don’t have superhuman reflexes at all. Running almost full zerk+scholar in WvW.

You develop a sort of spider sense over time; where you will do what others would classify as ‘random dodging’. But it’s rather about positioning and knowing that if you take a hit or a CC at that time, it would be over. Luckily, thief has an insane amount of dodges.

Cygnus.6903:

Ben K.6238:

Cygnus.6903:

And that’s the problem. You could make every skill on thief deal 10k damage, the class is still poorly designed. Because you are solely reliant on reflexes, use this or that teleport/evade/stealth in time, or you just die. Other classes get WAY more room for mistakes with all the passives, not even talking about the fact that for thieves to do meaningful damage, you have to be insanely glass to begin with.

Pretty much sums up my attempts to use thief.

I have more survivability on a naked ele. Thief requires good reflexes and low latency to pull off. It’s a fascinating class though, so I haven’t given up just yet.

And you shouldn’t. Even though I believe that almost all classes have been broken (either OP or just no fun) by HoT, especially what used to be my main, Thief is still very enjoyable to me. And I don’t have superhuman reflexes at all. Running almost full zerk+scholar in WvW.

You develop a sort of spider sense over time; where you will do what others would classify as ‘random dodging’. But it’s rather about positioning and knowing that if you take a hit or a CC at that time, it would be over. Luckily, thief has an insane amount of dodges.

It’s being familiar with your limits. You’ve tested them enough times to know how far you can go before you can’t come back. I have the same thing on my Necromancer from having done so much roaming with her. I run a vanilla Necro and I know exactly when I’m crossing the line between “I can come back from this” and “too late now, YOLO.”

Cygnus.6903:

You develop a sort of spider sense over time; where you will do what others would classify as ‘random dodging’.

Or the fact that you have 7 dodges with signet of agility and energy sigils. More with hard to catch.

If you are going to nerf something nerf the signet. By all means have crazy vault damage, but dont have perma evade sustain on top of that damage.

Chorazin.4107:

Cygnus.6903:

You develop a sort of spider sense over time; where you will do what others would classify as ‘random dodging’.

Or the fact that you have 7 dodges with signet of agility and energy sigils. More with hard to catch.

If you are going to nerf something nerf the signet. By all means have crazy vault damage, but dont have perma evade sustain on top of that damage.

If they remove Thief Dodges which is one of the few things that keeps Thieves viable they should remove all Passive defenses, there is absolutely no sense that players should be rewarded for sucking at the game and failing to use an active defense. Then once passives are removed any Invulns should make it so that the player can’t action besides move, since why should players be immune to damage and still be able to attack?

The balance in this game is a complete joke, they should have balanced everything around PvP aspects from the beginning since 2/3 Gamemodes are PvP oriented, but nope there is way to much AoE Spam/Cc spam wit no downsides/diminishing returns/ AoE Cc Spam/ Too many Passives/ Condition builds that can burst faster than Most power Builds/ too many invulns/ classes receiving mechanics that they don’t need access to/too many skills with Defense tied to Offense.

Until they remove all of that this game is a complete joke, and they will never fix those issues because it would mean redesigning most PvE mechanics, and really I find that if the current team tried their incompetence and lack of understanding the game as a whole would cause it to be even more broken.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Chorazin.4107:

Cygnus.6903:

You develop a sort of spider sense over time; where you will do what others would classify as ‘random dodging’.

Or the fact that you have 7 dodges with signet of agility and energy sigils. More with hard to catch.

If you are going to nerf something nerf the signet. By all means have crazy vault damage, but dont have perma evade sustain on top of that damage.

If they remove Thief Dodges which is one of the few things that keeps Thieves viable they should remove all Passive defenses, there is absolutely no sense that players should be rewarded for sucking at the game and failing to use an active defense. Then once passives are removed any Invulns should make it so that the player can’t action besides move, since why should players be immune to damage and still be able to attack?

The balance in this game is a complete joke, they should have balanced everything around PvP aspects from the beginning since 2/3 Gamemodes are PvP oriented, but nope there is way to much AoE Spam/Cc spam wit no downsides/diminishing returns/ AoE Cc Spam/ Too many Passives/ Condition builds that can burst faster than Most power Builds/ too many invulns/ classes receiving mechanics that they don’t need access to/too many skills with Defense tied to Offense.

Until they remove all of that this game is a complete joke, and they will never fix those issues because it would mean redesigning most PvE mechanics, and really I find that if the current team tried their incompetence and lack of understanding the game as a whole would cause it to be even more broken.

Or maybe, just maybe, and you know this is kind of heresy but it needs to be said, maybe ANet should nerf the access to dodges and improve other parts of thief so that it doesn’t rely on infinite dodging to survive. That’s just a bad kittening design. I can’t believe the thief players in this thread.

“Oh no you can’t change that because its the only thing keeping Thief viable!” (though some of you say that in every thread about thief so…..) Change that one thing and then change the rest of the class so they aren’t reliant on a single thing to stay alive/relevant.

@straegen I’m all for nerfing things that are overtuned and buffing where needed. There’s no conflict between wanting to shave vault while also wanting to see the class get some love to improve value elsewhere.

OriOri.8724:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Chorazin.4107:

Cygnus.6903:

You develop a sort of spider sense over time; where you will do what others would classify as ‘random dodging’.

Or the fact that you have 7 dodges with signet of agility and energy sigils. More with hard to catch.

If you are going to nerf something nerf the signet. By all means have crazy vault damage, but dont have perma evade sustain on top of that damage.

If they remove Thief Dodges which is one of the few things that keeps Thieves viable they should remove all Passive defenses, there is absolutely no sense that players should be rewarded for sucking at the game and failing to use an active defense. Then once passives are removed any Invulns should make it so that the player can’t action besides move, since why should players be immune to damage and still be able to attack?

The balance in this game is a complete joke, they should have balanced everything around PvP aspects from the beginning since 2/3 Gamemodes are PvP oriented, but nope there is way to much AoE Spam/Cc spam wit no downsides/diminishing returns/ AoE Cc Spam/ Too many Passives/ Condition builds that can burst faster than Most power Builds/ too many invulns/ classes receiving mechanics that they don’t need access to/too many skills with Defense tied to Offense.

Until they remove all of that this game is a complete joke, and they will never fix those issues because it would mean redesigning most PvE mechanics, and really I find that if the current team tried their incompetence and lack of understanding the game as a whole would cause it to be even more broken.

Or maybe, just maybe, and you know this is kind of heresy but it needs to be said, maybe ANet should nerf the access to dodges and improve other parts of thief so that it doesn’t rely on infinite dodging to survive. That’s just a bad kittening design. I can’t believe the thief players in this thread.

“Oh no you can’t change that because its the only thing keeping Thief viable!” (though some of you say that in every thread about thief so…..) Change that one thing and then change the rest of the class so they aren’t reliant on a single thing to stay alive/relevant.

It is a valid argument. And again people can’t take people seriously that don’t even know the mechanics or skills of classes they want nerfed.

Right now there is no class that Vault Spam Thieves oppress to the point they are not viable choices, it isn’t Op, and until Anet reduces all classes access to skills that are both Defensive and offensive as well as removing all Classes brain dead passives then there is no reason to call nerfs to non OP / game breaking skills.

One last time the balance in this game on all classes is pathetic, there is no fixing it with out Anet reworking every single class and actually having a design Concept between each class and having multiple viable specs.

Cygnus.6903:

Ben K.6238:

Cygnus.6903:

And that’s the problem. You could make every skill on thief deal 10k damage, the class is still poorly designed. Because you are solely reliant on reflexes, use this or that teleport/evade/stealth in time, or you just die. Other classes get WAY more room for mistakes with all the passives, not even talking about the fact that for thieves to do meaningful damage, you have to be insanely glass to begin with.

Pretty much sums up my attempts to use thief.

I have more survivability on a naked ele. Thief requires good reflexes and low latency to pull off. It’s a fascinating class though, so I haven’t given up just yet.

And you shouldn’t. Even though I believe that almost all classes have been broken (either OP or just no fun) by HoT, especially what used to be my main, Thief is still very enjoyable to me. And I don’t have superhuman reflexes at all. Running almost full zerk+scholar in WvW.

You develop a sort of spider sense over time; where you will do what others would classify as ‘random dodging’. But it’s rather about positioning and knowing that if you take a hit or a CC at that time, it would be over. Luckily, thief has an insane amount of dodges.

A lot of times those dodges are all you have to get you out of Dodge. Once INI burned off , which can happen quickly in a fight there really little left unlike other classes which can swap over to another weaponset for a block or have those passives kick in.

That 6th sense comes into play especially when a 2nd or thrid enemy arrives on the scene. You can usually tell right away what profession it is, the specific build , and the openings it will use on you and yes, very often will spam dodges to to get away from the scene.

On my warrior if I need to escape of a sudden I can throw up blocks, endure pain the dodges or just eat damage more readily just because i can.

The perception to the other layers facing my thief in this case is “he just spams dodges”. The warrior is just as survivable if not more so due to more armor and health and a greater variety of ways to protect itself via the weaponsets the perception is he does “more differnt things” so as to survive.

The thing people do not recognize is that when a class not tied to INI needs a defense of its weapon set it likely there for him to use because he did not need a defense until that point in the battle. When a thief needs a defense off their weaponset they very often can not use it because INI was burned up for offense so they need to Dodge.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

OriOri.8724:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Chorazin.4107:

Cygnus.6903:

You develop a sort of spider sense over time; where you will do what others would classify as ‘random dodging’.

Or the fact that you have 7 dodges with signet of agility and energy sigils. More with hard to catch.

If you are going to nerf something nerf the signet. By all means have crazy vault damage, but dont have perma evade sustain on top of that damage.

If they remove Thief Dodges which is one of the few things that keeps Thieves viable they should remove all Passive defenses, there is absolutely no sense that players should be rewarded for sucking at the game and failing to use an active defense. Then once passives are removed any Invulns should make it so that the player can’t action besides move, since why should players be immune to damage and still be able to attack?

The balance in this game is a complete joke, they should have balanced everything around PvP aspects from the beginning since 2/3 Gamemodes are PvP oriented, but nope there is way to much AoE Spam/Cc spam wit no downsides/diminishing returns/ AoE Cc Spam/ Too many Passives/ Condition builds that can burst faster than Most power Builds/ too many invulns/ classes receiving mechanics that they don’t need access to/too many skills with Defense tied to Offense.

Until they remove all of that this game is a complete joke, and they will never fix those issues because it would mean redesigning most PvE mechanics, and really I find that if the current team tried their incompetence and lack of understanding the game as a whole would cause it to be even more broken.

Or maybe, just maybe, and you know this is kind of heresy but it needs to be said, maybe ANet should nerf the access to dodges and improve other parts of thief so that it doesn’t rely on infinite dodging to survive. That’s just a bad kittening design. I can’t believe the thief players in this thread.

“Oh no you can’t change that because its the only thing keeping Thief viable!” (though some of you say that in every thread about thief so…..) Change that one thing and then change the rest of the class so they aren’t reliant on a single thing to stay alive/relevant.

It is a valid argument. And again people can’t take people seriously that don’t even know the mechanics or skills of classes they want nerfed.

Right now there is no class that Vault Spam Thieves oppress to the point they are not viable choices, it isn’t Op, and until Anet reduces all classes access to skills that are both Defensive and offensive as well as removing all Classes brain dead passives then there is no reason to call nerfs to non OP / game breaking skills.

One last time the balance in this game on all classes is pathetic, there is no fixing it with out Anet reworking every single class and actually having a design Concept between each class and having multiple viable specs.

you’re right, someone trying to learn how to play better can’t know a single thing about game design Oh wait, those two things aren’t at all related actually. You like sticking to this so much, its probably because you know there isn’t any real defense to the way thief is designed. The class needs a redesign, badly. Yet just about every thief player on these forums, despite endlessly crying about how their entire class is carried by one or two things mind you, adamantly refuses that anything is wrong with thief and that anything should be changed. This would make thief a better class if it was redesigned. But you seem to lack basic comprehension, so continue to enjoy a class with very poor design.

OriOri.8724:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

OriOri.8724:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Chorazin.4107:

Cygnus.6903:

You develop a sort of spider sense over time; where you will do what others would classify as ‘random dodging’.

Or the fact that you have 7 dodges with signet of agility and energy sigils. More with hard to catch.

If you are going to nerf something nerf the signet. By all means have crazy vault damage, but dont have perma evade sustain on top of that damage.

If they remove Thief Dodges which is one of the few things that keeps Thieves viable they should remove all Passive defenses, there is absolutely no sense that players should be rewarded for sucking at the game and failing to use an active defense. Then once passives are removed any Invulns should make it so that the player can’t action besides move, since why should players be immune to damage and still be able to attack?

The balance in this game is a complete joke, they should have balanced everything around PvP aspects from the beginning since 2/3 Gamemodes are PvP oriented, but nope there is way to much AoE Spam/Cc spam wit no downsides/diminishing returns/ AoE Cc Spam/ Too many Passives/ Condition builds that can burst faster than Most power Builds/ too many invulns/ classes receiving mechanics that they don’t need access to/too many skills with Defense tied to Offense.

Until they remove all of that this game is a complete joke, and they will never fix those issues because it would mean redesigning most PvE mechanics, and really I find that if the current team tried their incompetence and lack of understanding the game as a whole would cause it to be even more broken.

Or maybe, just maybe, and you know this is kind of heresy but it needs to be said, maybe ANet should nerf the access to dodges and improve other parts of thief so that it doesn’t rely on infinite dodging to survive. That’s just a bad kittening design. I can’t believe the thief players in this thread.

“Oh no you can’t change that because its the only thing keeping Thief viable!” (though some of you say that in every thread about thief so…..) Change that one thing and then change the rest of the class so they aren’t reliant on a single thing to stay alive/relevant.

It is a valid argument. And again people can’t take people seriously that don’t even know the mechanics or skills of classes they want nerfed.

Right now there is no class that Vault Spam Thieves oppress to the point they are not viable choices, it isn’t Op, and until Anet reduces all classes access to skills that are both Defensive and offensive as well as removing all Classes brain dead passives then there is no reason to call nerfs to non OP / game breaking skills.

One last time the balance in this game on all classes is pathetic, there is no fixing it with out Anet reworking every single class and actually having a design Concept between each class and having multiple viable specs.

you’re right, someone trying to learn how to play better can’t know a single thing about game design Oh wait, those two things aren’t at all related actually. You like sticking to this so much, its probably because you know there isn’t any real defense to the way thief is designed. The class needs a redesign, badly. Yet just about every thief player on these forums, despite endlessly crying about how their entire class is carried by one or two things mind you, adamantly refuses that anything is wrong with thief and that anything should be changed. This would make thief a better class if it was redesigned. But you seem to lack basic comprehension, so continue to enjoy a class with very poor design.

Point out where I said there is nothing wrong with Thief design, I will wait, I have stated to the contrary but it’s not just a Thief design issue it’s the game as a whole. Every class has something that carries the class, so if you go around removing stuff from one class you have to remove the equivalent thing from all others, and yes if a player doesnt know how classes work and call for nerfs , how can they determine what should be nerfed without actually having full understanding, that’s just common sense.

This game is at a pseudo balance with each class having overcompensating aspects to it so until they start reigning in all classes overcompensating issues then no specific nerfs should be applied, but that level of a fix/redesign will never happen.

This game is a complete lost cause due to the incompetence of the Balance team and due to the incompetence of most players calling for nerfs to everything they lose against.

Chorazin.4107:

Cygnus.6903:

You develop a sort of spider sense over time; where you will do what others would classify as ‘random dodging’.

Or the fact that you have 7 dodges with signet of agility and energy sigils. More with hard to catch.

If you are going to nerf something nerf the signet. By all means have crazy vault damage, but dont have perma evade sustain on top of that damage.

^This. Vault is not a problem. Just the 6-7 dodges and evade frames added from a condi using D/D Death-blossom. That’s the only cheese imo. I don’t care about the condi, just the evades. I think trying this idea of changing Sig of Agility and see how that goes.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

OriOri.8724:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

It is a valid argument. And again people can’t take people seriously that don’t even know the mechanics or skills of classes they want nerfed.

Right now there is no class that Vault Spam Thieves oppress to the point they are not viable choices, it isn’t Op, and until Anet reduces all classes access to skills that are both Defensive and offensive as well as removing all Classes brain dead passives then there is no reason to call nerfs to non OP / game breaking skills.

One last time the balance in this game on all classes is pathetic, there is no fixing it with out Anet reworking every single class and actually having a design Concept between each class and having multiple viable specs.

you’re right, someone trying to learn how to play better can’t know a single thing about game design Oh wait, those two things aren’t at all related actually. You like sticking to this so much, its probably because you know there isn’t any real defense to the way thief is designed. The class needs a redesign, badly. Yet just about every thief player on these forums, despite endlessly crying about how their entire class is carried by one or two things mind you, adamantly refuses that anything is wrong with thief and that anything should be changed. This would make thief a better class if it was redesigned. But you seem to lack basic comprehension, so continue to enjoy a class with very poor design.

Point out where I said there is nothing wrong with Thief design, I will wait, I have stated to the contrary but it’s not just a Thief design issue it’s the game as a whole. Every class has something that carries the class, so if you go around removing stuff from one class you have to remove the equivalent thing from all others, and yes if a player doesnt know how classes work and call for nerfs , how can they determine what should be nerfed without actually having full understanding, that’s just common sense.

This game is at a pseudo balance with each class having overcompensating aspects to it so until they start reigning in all classes overcompensating issues then no specific nerfs should be applied, but that level of a fix/redesign will never happen.

This game is a complete lost cause due to the incompetence of the Balance team and due to the incompetence of most players calling for nerfs to everything they lose against.

By continuing to argue that thief is fine, and refusing to accept that some things on thief do need to be changed, including nerfed, you keep implying that there is nothing wrong with thief. Everytime it comes up you always retort with “But other classes are OP too” as if that is justification. Well, it appears that the balance team used that same justification themselves which is why we are even in this mess where every class is overpowered, so you can see how effective it is.

Answer this question though. Did you agree with ANets decision to nerf SotM on rev? Forget about how much it was nerfed, because it was extremely heavy. Do you agree with the decision to nerf if. Again, don’t focus on how the nerf was implemented, just tell me if you agree with the decision that it needed some type of nerf.

Choppy.4183:

@straegen I’m all for nerfing things that are overtuned and buffing where needed. There’s no conflict between wanting to shave vault while also wanting to see the class get some love to improve value elsewhere.

I agree the thief needs adjustments but Vault isn’t the problem. The Auto Attack (particularly Dagger) on the thief is too strong for a basic ability. Stealth Stacking is a clear problem as well (Ghost Thief is an extreme example). However Vault requires skill to land against a decent opponent and has an exploitable vulnerability.

Players that get beat down by Vault quickly either weren’t aware of their surroundings as Vault has a massive tell, were probably standing still/moving predictably or just out of any useful defense. The ability can be leveraged to deal big hits but has strong counter play by most average or better players.

OriOri.8724:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

OriOri.8724:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

It is a valid argument. And again people can’t take people seriously that don’t even know the mechanics or skills of classes they want nerfed.

Right now there is no class that Vault Spam Thieves oppress to the point they are not viable choices, it isn’t Op, and until Anet reduces all classes access to skills that are both Defensive and offensive as well as removing all Classes brain dead passives then there is no reason to call nerfs to non OP / game breaking skills.

One last time the balance in this game on all classes is pathetic, there is no fixing it with out Anet reworking every single class and actually having a design Concept between each class and having multiple viable specs.

you’re right, someone trying to learn how to play better can’t know a single thing about game design Oh wait, those two things aren’t at all related actually. You like sticking to this so much, its probably because you know there isn’t any real defense to the way thief is designed. The class needs a redesign, badly. Yet just about every thief player on these forums, despite endlessly crying about how their entire class is carried by one or two things mind you, adamantly refuses that anything is wrong with thief and that anything should be changed. This would make thief a better class if it was redesigned. But you seem to lack basic comprehension, so continue to enjoy a class with very poor design.

Point out where I said there is nothing wrong with Thief design, I will wait, I have stated to the contrary but it’s not just a Thief design issue it’s the game as a whole. Every class has something that carries the class, so if you go around removing stuff from one class you have to remove the equivalent thing from all others, and yes if a player doesnt know how classes work and call for nerfs , how can they determine what should be nerfed without actually having full understanding, that’s just common sense.

This game is at a pseudo balance with each class having overcompensating aspects to it so until they start reigning in all classes overcompensating issues then no specific nerfs should be applied, but that level of a fix/redesign will never happen.

This game is a complete lost cause due to the incompetence of the Balance team and due to the incompetence of most players calling for nerfs to everything they lose against.

By continuing to argue that thief is fine, and refusing to accept that some things on thief do need to be changed, including nerfed, you keep implying that there is nothing wrong with thief. Everytime it comes up you always retort with “But other classes are OP too” as if that is justification. Well, it appears that the balance team used that same justification themselves which is why we are even in this mess where every class is overpowered, so you can see how effective it is.

Answer this question though. Did you agree with ANets decision to nerf SotM on rev? Forget about how much it was nerfed, because it was extremely heavy. Do you agree with the decision to nerf if. Again, don’t focus on how the nerf was implemented, just tell me if you agree with the decision that it needed some type of nerf.

I play Rev and I did agree with the Nerf to SoTM since it did a lot more than vault did(this is the WvW Sub forum where SoTM never got nerfed, it’s still does more damage than Vault# funfacts), the Damage was Higher than Vault for a full hit which isn’t hard to land when using it properly, was a full 1 sec Evade for the cast duration of the skill no punish frame and Was a 8 hit Knock back.

I think Anet needs to nerf everything and I mean everything and start over, I have stated in multiple Threads no skill should be offensive and defensive, that they shouldn’t be frontloaded with effects and so on. But right now there is a pseudo balance and almost all outliers have been fixed only a few more need to be Trimmed if Anet refuses to actually nerf all the powercreep.

Unlike you I don’t call nerfs for anything anymore unless globally Anet Does it to all similar things, or unless the thing is blatantly broken/unhealthy for the game. And unlike you I have spent ample time in PvP/WvW environments on all classes except for Engie so that I learned all I could to better evaluate what makes them tick and how to better evaluate if something is broken.

OriOri.8724:

I can’t believe the thief players in this thread.

How are we supposed to take you seriously when you say stuff like this. Most comments have been very to the point and knowledgeable about thief class in this topic, which is an exception, I’ll admit it, but all the more reason you shouldn’t make things personal like this.

Obviously, you are not a thief player? I deduct this from your disbelief about thief players in this topic, as you are in this topic yourself, and I can’t presume you don’t believe in yourself either, judging by your demeanor.

So you are not a thief player (please correct me if I am wrong), and you don’t seem to understand that what many thief players, including myself, are saying here, is that without the overabundance of dodges on the class as it is right now, thief would not be able to survive against anything. As it stands, it is hard enough to survive already. I am talking about competent player on class X versus competent player on Thief.

So calling for nerfs when you don’t acknowledge that problem is bad game design if you ask me.

This does not mean that I don’t think thief has some very poor design issues. They took this route with HoT, and I would like to refer to a post by somebody in the topic on Ghost Thieves, where he referred to a game designer explaining the concept of ‘anti-fun’. And fighting something like DD condi, which runs very little risk of getting caught for their mistakes, removes the fun for the opposing player. This, however, is a problem with a lot of condi specs, since launch.
An opposing player using 7 back to back dodges to, get out of dodge, is frustrating. Obviously. You need to understand though, that those 7 dodges are our double endure pain, our plethora of blocks, our invulnerability spam, our 2-second full heals, etc. I could go on.

Then there is the damage issue of Vault. I do think that an ability like Vault is a prime example of what is wrong with the game. Calling for a nerf feels like discrimination more then really trying to improve the game, however. Such a wide array of abilities and mechanics are equally or way worse right now. There is a troubling tendency from Anet to buff specs that require very little to achieve very much. Vault is a good example of this were it not for the thief class being so incredibly squishy without any passives (bar the stupid stunbreak into endurance refill in acro) to make up for mistakes. You have to be quick.
Thief has a place in PvP solely because of mobility, not damage. So nerfing the damage of a class where that is not the main issue seems, well, you can guess.

Straegen.2938:

I agree the thief needs adjustments but Vault isn’t the problem….. However Vault requires skill to land against a decent opponent and has an exploitable vulnerability.

Speaking only from the perspective of roaming in wvw, I disagree.

I’ve regularly come across players who basically spam vault to attack and then use it (along with other abilities) to escape if they aren’t successful initially and need to regroup their initiative.

It doesn’t take a lot of skill to land a vault, and there’s not much consequence to just spamming it. Even if your opponent avoids it most of the time, landing a 10k crit without putting yourself in any real jeopardy is a pretty easy ride. Put two vault spammers in the mix with slightly offset vaults, and it’s pretty silly.

Though it’s somewhat less of a problem than it used to be, I feel the same way about gunflame when used in medium to large scale groups. It supports a risk-free pew-pew style that doesn’t seem particularly good for the game.

I’m a proponent of reward being balanced with risk. If you never have to put yourself in any danger, then your damage output should be fairly low (and vice versa). Skill should be the mitigator there, meaning a player who explodes his or her opponent without breaking a sweat should only be able to do so through their own competence.

Choppy.4183:

Speaking only from the perspective of roaming in wvw, I disagree.

I’ve regularly come across players who basically spam vault to attack and then use it (along with other abilities) to escape if they aren’t successful initially and need to regroup their initiative.

Staff is strong when Vault is primed in an attack chain but if a player keeps dying to Vault spam it is a training issue. We see it in duels… Vault spamming is weak play and cannot beat decently played small scale meta builds.

Most thieves die a lot mainly to other thieves and team composition but accept that as part of roaming. Other players from other classes get killed by some Vault spam and think it is OP because they mistakenly believe every build should be able to fight evenly with every other build.

The thief does two things well. Travels fast and kills players quick during an advantage (zerglings, wounded players, lessor skilled players, numbers advantage). Pretty much everything else a thief gets wrecked… and most thieves accept it. Changing that would mean Guardians should no longer dominate group play or Tempests should no longer be able to anchor skirmish play.

Straegen.2938:

Staff is strong when Vault is primed in an attack chain but if a player keeps dying to Vault spam it is a training issue. We see it in duels… Vault spamming is weak play and cannot beat decently played small scale meta builds.

Most thieves die a lot mainly to other thieves and team composition but accept that as part of roaming. Other players from other classes get killed by some Vault spam and think it is OP because they mistakenly believe every build should be able to fight evenly with every other build.

The thief does two things well. Travels fast and kills players quick during an advantage (zerglings, wounded players, lessor skilled players, numbers advantage). Pretty much everything else a thief gets wrecked… and most thieves accept it. Changing that would mean Guardians should no longer dominate group play or Tempests should no longer be able to anchor skirmish play.

Except duels don’t mirror what I’m talking about. You’re generally not able to reset a fight or go far out of range in a duel if you run out of gas, otherwise people stop dueling you.

You don’t have that restriction in wvw. You can just spam away, and then retreat for a bit just to try again when you’re ready. In a small group scenario, especially with two vault spammers, it’s not going to take any skill to clip a few people with 10k vaults.

So I’m not entirely clear about the argument you’re making here. I’m saying risk should match reward, and that vault seems somewhat off on that balance. Some people have identified the built-in evade, others the initiative cost, and others the damage.

You seem to be saying none of that matters because thief gets pinched in other areas of the game and, at least when dueling, vault spamming isn’t terribly effective. Have I misunderstood what you’re saying, because this perspective just doesn’t make sense to me.

HaHa after reading through this thread it’s making me itch to take my Thief out of moth balls and try some of that vault spam lovin’. :-)

Choppy.4183:

Except duels don’t mirror what I’m talking about. You’re generally not able to reset a fight or go far out of range in a duel if you run out of gas, otherwise people stop dueling you.

Duels often involve several resets on both sides particularly when stealth is involved. They typically operate more like bull fighting than a cage match.

Choppy.4183:

You don’t have that restriction in wvw. You can just spam away, and then retreat for a bit just to try again when you’re ready. In a small group scenario, especially with two vault spammers, it’s not going to take any skill to clip a few people with 10k vaults.

Sure a thief can Vault spam three shots in a row… then a decent thief will clip him as soon he starts to run. Thieves cannot fight mindlessly like what is being portrayed here without getting blown up.

As the numbers on both sides go up a thieves chance for victory goes down. The thief is primarily an advantage class so yes two thieves fighting one player is at a massive advantage… so is every other class in the game.

Choppy.4183:

So I’m not entirely clear about the argument you’re making here. I’m saying risk should match reward, and that vault seems somewhat off on that balance. Some people have identified the built-in evade, others the initiative cost, and others the damage.

And still others continually point out the massive tell it has and the fact it is easy to interrupt. Vault has holes… big giant holes. It even has a particularly nasty after cast that allows for big shots to crack it and prevents Vaults from being immediately chained together to hit different locations.

Choppy.4183:

You seem to be saying none of that matters because thief gets pinched in other areas of the game and, at least when dueling, vault spamming isn’t terribly effective. Have I misunderstood what you’re saying, because this perspective just doesn’t make sense to me.

The thief has the lowest health pool, medium armor and typically relies on stealth, mobility, evasion and pressure to survive. Its only effective AoE is Vault and most of its spike has to be done up close and personal. Vault on a Warrior might be OP. If Vault were Ranged it might be OP. If Vault didn’t have a big windup, it might be OP. If Vault didn’t have a mid and after cast delay it might be OP.

Vault is nearly a perfect example of a skill that is lethal to faceroll players and builds but is quickly dismantled by skill. Now Shadow Shot and the Dagger Auto Attack DPS increase, I can have a field day griping about those.

@BlaqueFyre – I disagree that SotM did more things than Vault did. It did just as many, but it did them better per se (higher damage, longer evade). But its damage was, justifiably which we agree on, nerfed because the skill simply did too many things. Vault is in the same boat right now. It does high damage, it evades (so its a defensive skill as well), hits more targets than SotM does, and it also has a leap finisher. That finisher can be both offensive and defensive for the thief due to your ready access to smoke fields. Vault just simply does too many things. And also, it has a much lower “CD” than SotM did (being able to do 3 vaults in a row aside, it has a minimum 5 sec to refill the ini that it uses but it can definitely be used much more often than every 20 seconds). And on top of that it can even be traited to also restore 10 endurance when you use it. Its just a broken design that it does so many things. Just because its a telegraphed skill doesn’t change the fact that it does 3 (or even 4) different things. I very much disagree with skills that do 3 things at a minimum.

Cygnus.6903:

OriOri.8724:

I can’t believe the thief players in this thread.

So you are not a thief player (please correct me if I am wrong), and you don’t seem to understand that what many thief players, including myself, are saying here, is that without the overabundance of dodges on the class as it is right now, thief would not be able to survive against anything. As it stands, it is hard enough to survive already. I am talking about competent player on class X versus competent player on Thief.

This is exactly what I cannot believe from thief players. Yes, you are correct that thief needs this ridiculous amount of dodges to survive. How can you not see that is broken? The problem right now is that because of how many dodges and evades that thief/DD has, ANet cannot give them better defenses and ways to survive otherwise it would be broken beyond belief. People like you are actively defending broken designs that are hampering the ability of the thief’s class design to move forward and be more versatile. If I was a thief main I would be campaigning to limit the amount of dodging that thief can do so that it could get other defenses and ways to survive.

Straegen.2938:

Duels often involve several resets on both sides particularly when stealth is involved. They typically operate more like bull fighting than a cage match.

Well, I’ve clocked a lot of duels by this point, including against thieves, and not once has one of my dueling partners reset the fight, afaik. If it happened more than once, I doubt I’d continue dueling them since that’s cheap as hell and totally avoidable. (Remember: resetting isn’t gaining space and healing up, it’s resetting your health pool by disengaging far enough to be considered out of combat).

Straegen.2938:

Sure a thief can Vault spam three shots in a row… then a decent thief will clip him as soon he starts to run. Thieves cannot fight mindlessly like what is being portrayed here without getting blown up.

Because thieves are practically the only class that can catch another thief who’s determined to get away, particularly when the opponents skills are on cd. Vault has a range of 600 with an evade frame, and a thief has more than that to get away.

Vault’s pretty mindless from what I’ve seen with no real skill required. If warriors could spam Earthshaker three times in a row, then use mobility to get away if it doesn’t land, then come back again, people would be salty about it. Vault’s like that, but does far more damage and no cc. Of course, Earthshaker can be interrupted at any point until it lands, blinded, etc., and is negated by stability and stunbreaks.

Straegen.2938:

As the numbers on both sides go up a thieves chance for victory goes down. The thief is primarily an advantage class so yes two thieves fighting one player is at a massive advantage… so is every other class in the game.

Oh, I’m not saying 2v1 situations… I mean, assuming equal skill, 2 should beat 1 most of the time. I’m saying two vault spam thieves in a small group fight (say 5 people on each side) can do a tremendous amount of damage without putting themselves in any real danger and without having any real skill.

As a point of comparison, dagger (and even sword) thieves can be very lethal in those situations too, but they face greater danger and present a narrower threat. Vault spammers are like the aforementioned gunflamers shooting into the melee from a safe distance, but add the ability to kite anybody if they picked up focus.

Straegen.2938:

And still others continually point out the massive tell it has and the fact it is easy to interrupt. Vault has holes… big giant holes. It even has a particularly nasty after cast that allows for big shots to crack it and prevents Vaults from being immediately chained together to hit different locations.

It has a 1/4 second “hole”, right? That’s not really giant…. I mean, most skills don’t have evades built into them at all, and skills that do that sort of damage normally have a fully interuptable 3/4s channel. And that aftercast isn’t so much of a threat when your opponent is still recovering from their dodge to avoid the 10k hit.

Let’s keep it real here… I don’t think anyone has said Vault is the most broken thing in the game, but there aren’t a lot of skills that sort of spammable damage that are so forgiving.

I’m with Cygnus on this, personally. Reduce the power scaling or base damage and otherwise leave the skill alone. It hits way too hard for a no cooldown and no-setup skill with a built-in evade, especially for a class that’s swimming in evades and escape options.

Vault has the potential to deal more damage, but on any semblance of a good build, it dealt much less than SoTM.

Not uncommon to find revs in WvW hitting for 20-25k SoTM’s. A 25k vault is CS/Tr/DrD gone signets and running signets, especially without DA, automatically makes any build terrible for the most part.

OriOri.8724:

@BlaqueFyre – I disagree that SotM did more things than Vault did. It did just as many, but it did them better per se (higher damage, longer evade). But its damage was, justifiably which we agree on, nerfed because the skill simply did too many things. Vault is in the same boat right now. It does high damage, it evades (so its a defensive skill as well), hits more targets than SotM does, and it also has a leap finisher. That finisher can be both offensive and defensive for the thief due to your ready access to smoke fields. Vault just simply does too many things. And also, it has a much lower “CD” than SotM did (being able to do 3 vaults in a row aside, it has a minimum 5 sec to refill the ini that it uses but it can definitely be used much more often than every 20 seconds). And on top of that it can even be traited to also restore 10 endurance when you use it. Its just a broken design that it does so many things. Just because its a telegraphed skill doesn’t change the fact that it does 3 (or even 4) different things. I very much disagree with skills that do 3 things at a minimum.

See bolded, are you trying to forget that’s SoTM is one of the strongest CCs in game? It is 8 knock backs on up to 3 people! It has higher damage than Vault and it is an Evade for the full duration and not overtly Telegraphed. So yeah while Vault is an Evade for 33% of the cast time, can hit out to 5 people for lower damage and is a Leap and is Highly Telegraphed.

Now I have a question if Thief is Running Staff what smoke field is he laying down? I’ll give you a moment to clarify that since Staff doesn’t have a smoke field, and the most readily available smoke field Thief does have is on Pistol OH which cost 6 Initiative to use, requires the Thief to swap weapons to Staff then aim the Leap through the Smoke field with Vault which is 5 iniative and so on, see where I am going at with this? While SoTM is an all in one package Very AoE High Damage, Full Evade, and extremely strong AoE CC.

And guess what SoTM wasn’t nerfed this last patch in WvW and last I checked this is still the WvW Subforum so SoTM still does a lot more than Vault, and yes SoTM nerf was justified it was more justified than Vault. Wedding to be nerfed, yes Vault needs a Shave in Damage but it’s not as game breaking as you and others make it out to be.

@ OP, ur gonna love pvp bro.

Ur absolutely gonna love pvp thiefs. Vault spam over and over and over and over. They do it up to around 7 times in a row without blinking an eye. As a warrior running a meta build, I only get a single chance every 20-25 seconds to counter, and that’s due to headbutt. You land any other stun and they will immediately use one of their 4 cc breaks. With headdbutt you can land some serious condi damage if u trait, and that’s what lets you kill/break their cycle. Easier said than done though.

Other option is gunflame if ur a war, Its actually fairly easy to break vault with gunflames if you fire them as soon as they end their last vault (will hit them on their next vault).

Otherwise you need an aoe cc or damage spell/trap to counter vaults.

Its srsly lulz tho in pvp……thief just vaults over and over on one of the capture points and you can’t do jack.

Cerby.1069:

@ OP, ur gonna love pvp bro.

Ur absolutely gonna love pvp thiefs. Vault spam over and over and over and over. They do it up to around 7 times in a row without blinking an eye. As a warrior running a meta build, I only get a single chance every 20-25 seconds to counter, and that’s due to headbutt. You land any other stun and they will immediately use one of their 4 cc breaks. With headdbutt you can land some serious condi damage if u trait, and that’s what lets you kill/break their cycle. Easier said than done though.

Other option is gunflame if ur a war, Its actually fairly easy to break vault with gunflames if you fire them as soon as they end their last vault (will hit them on their next vault).

Otherwise you need an aoe cc or damage spell/trap to counter vaults.

Its srsly lulz tho in pvp……thief just vaults over and over on one of the capture points and you can’t do jack.

Not running M/S or Taunt or any other number of low-cooldown CC’s? Warrior’s probably got the best chance at dealing with it tbh.

if you play full cleric druid WITH MARKMANSHIP (yes i can see it), you kinda deserve to get rekt. You have defensive gear with 0 traits to support it.
Balance your build better and you will do not get rekt. and after that you can rotate protection, evade/block whenever they make that super obvious animation, juke right and left, because they actually have to guess where youre going. and dont use bow as ranger or you gonna get rekt by mobile classes.

So my point is that the issue was your build, not the thief. Its not broken. Its annoying ikr, and i lost 1-2 games in pvp to staff thief because no1 could kill the enemy kitten kittening vault thief and i was on scrapper after the slick shoes nerf. But normally its free win against them

Edit: also you have glyph of alignment, which is inferior to the daze stunbreak one. so 0 stab 0 real stunbreaks, its a sad build with wrong skills, traits and gear, you gonna get rekt.

I give you an example from other class, as you dont seem to be greatest druid in the game:
There is a hypothetical person called John, John isnt smartest person in the game so he picks a guardian.

John takes takes tanky gear because its good for WvW, and John thinks hes tanky.
After that John takes Zeal traits, Radiance traits, because they feel good and awesome, John is gonna be tanky and do damage, awesome. John takes Sanctuary, signet of bane and signet of judgement with quickness shout.

Question: John goes in to WvW to be a hero, but dies instantly there. What did he do wrong, is enemy hacking?
Answer: John has utility skills that are useless against condi and give 0 boons. He has offensive traits on defensive build so the offensive traits dont actually benefit John that much and John dies instantly because no protection or other boons.

OriOri.8724:

This is exactly what I cannot believe from thief players. Yes, you are correct that thief needs this ridiculous amount of dodges to survive. How can you not see that is broken? The problem right now is that because of how many dodges and evades that thief/DD has, ANet cannot give them better defenses and ways to survive otherwise it would be broken beyond belief. People like you are actively defending broken designs that are hampering the ability of the thief’s class design to move forward and be more versatile. If I was a thief main I would be campaigning to limit the amount of dodging that thief can do so that it could get other defenses and ways to survive.

Your logic is so flawed here, I was tempted to give up.

So I am correct that thief need this ridiculous amount of dodges to survive. Then how can you propose nerfing it while not SIMULTANEOUSLY buffing other defenses on thief? That’s the whole point I am trying to make here, you can’t nerf the defense when you can see clearly that thief would drop down to unusable.

I for one would gladly drop the second dodge from Signet of Agility as well as nerf half the endurance regen from Channeled Vigor in exchange for a medium HP pool, for example. Please, drop the evade on Death Blossom entirely, condition specs are stupidly forgiving.

You say that I defend the current design of thief. Point me to something I said that proves this. In fact, I will quote myself to reiterate what I was trying to clarify;

Cygnus.6903:

This does not mean that I don’t think thief has some very poor design issues. They took this route with HoT, and I would like to refer to a post by somebody in the topic on Ghost Thieves, where he referred to a game designer explaining the concept of ‘anti-fun’. And fighting something like DD condi, which runs very little risk of getting caught for their mistakes, removes the fun for the opposing player. This, however, is a problem with a lot of condi specs, since launch.
An opposing player using 7 back to back dodges to, get out of dodge, is frustrating. Obviously. You need to understand though, that those 7 dodges are our double endure pain, our plethora of blocks, our invulnerability spam, our 2-second full heals, etc. I could go on.

Again, propose a buff to defenses along with a nerf, because thief is in a state where it is forced to rely on anti-fun mechanics.

Choppy.4183:

Well, I’ve clocked a lot of duels by this point, including against thieves, and not once has one of my dueling partners reset the fight, afaik.

Not every build is built to be dishing out 100% of the time. Any number of builds stealth or get some distance to get their cool downs back. Soft resets are vital to most builds.

Choppy.4183:

Vault’s pretty mindless from what I’ve seen with no real skill required. If warriors could spam Earthshaker three times in a row, then use mobility to get away if it doesn’t land, then come back again, people would be salty about it.

Earthshaker is an AoE stun, attached to a class with the highest armor/health along with so many passive defenses they rarely need to activate their heal. On top of that, a Warrior can indeed drop Earthshaker then speed off into the distance. They can also Gun Flame at range for far more damage, Eviscerate for substantially more damage, etc.

Choppy.4183:

I’m saying two vault spam thieves in a small group fight (say 5 people on each side) can do a tremendous amount of damage without putting themselves in any real danger and without having any real skill.

There is a reason most skirmish crews don’t run with a thief. Take a group like tRex… two thieves on the other side are free kills. Thieves have almost no synergy with other classes and do not elevate those around them. Add one Support Tempest, Guardian or Engi into the mix and two thieves Vaulting are just wasting their time. Give me one solid support build and a Power Mes and I will show you a bunch of dead thieves.

Choppy.4183:

As a point of comparison, dagger (and even sword) thieves can be very lethal in those situations too, but they face greater danger and present a narrower threat.

DP is a far more lethal weapon set against a skilled opponent. You can make a strong argument that Staff DP is even more lethal but it isn’t because of Vault. It is because of stealth stacking.

Choppy.4183:

It has a 1/4 second “hole”, right? That’s not really giant…. I mean, most skills don’t have evades built into them at all, and skills that do that sort of damage normally have a fully interuptable 3/4s channel. And that aftercast isn’t so much of a threat when your opponent is still recovering from their dodge to avoid the 10k hit.

The midcast and aftercast delays allow for field effects and well timed attacks to land including AoE stuns, blinds, etc. It also prevents Vault from being chained easily on a constantly moving target. This is why most good Staff users use Vault in rotation not as spam. The ability is fairly easy to interrupt so much so that I welcome Vault on my Int and Shatter builds. Its like players that sit in Black Powder not expecting to get hit when they use HS.

Choppy.4183:

I’m with Cygnus on this, personally. Reduce the power scaling or base damage and otherwise leave the skill alone. It hits way too hard for a no cooldown and no-setup skill with a built-in evade, especially for a class that’s swimming in evades and escape options.

I still point back to the class it is on and its entire effectiveness in the meta. It simply isn’t overly effective in the meta like say passive defense is. Seriously, when was the last time you died to Vault spam in an even fight that didn’t start with the thief having an advantage? I get the complaints from scrubs but no decent player can say with a straight face the most dangerous build they run into is a Staff thief. Annoying when they hit and run I will give you but most dangerous? Come on…

Take it as homework.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dodge

Straegen.2938:

I get the complaints from scrubs but no decent player can say with a straight face the most dangerous build they run into is a Staff thief. Annoying when they hit and run I will give you but most dangerous? Come on…

That’s the thing, I’ve already said that I (and I think most people who’ve commented here) don’t think Vault is the most broken thing in the game, and I wouldn’t say a vault spamming thief is the most dangerous build either.

My point, and my only point, has been that the risk:reward ratio seems far off from what’s reasonable. 10-11k is a truckload of damage to deliver in a single hit (not the most in the game, but still a lot), and being able to drop three of those in succession for aoe damage and evade on 66% of the cast time seems borked to me.

Remember as well that, while I think Vault needs a shave (and would like to see stealth stacking ended), I also think Thief (especially base) could use some sweet lovin’ to boost its effectiveness elsewhere.

pve damage numbers in a pvp setting are never good, no matter what the skill is.

Once i dodged 3 times the staff 5 and the thief died because he had no initiative left and he got 1 shot cuz zerk gear ftw.
Plz, buff thief.

Threather.9354:

Once i dodged 3 times the staff 5 and the thief died because he had no initiative left and he got 1 shot cuz zerk gear ftw.
Plz, buff thief.

He didn’t know that he also had dodges and other defenses? That’s weird…. Cool story, bro.

Threather.9354:

Once i dodged 3 times the staff 5 and the thief died because he had no initiative left and he got 1 shot cuz zerk gear ftw.
Plz, buff thief.

What happened to his 7 bounds, that can hit for 4k? Or his stun break on a 12 sec icd with a 1.25second block attached and, shadowstep?

Highest and worst damage ever done to me was vault, hit me for around 9k. I was appalled. But, the numbers on the screen shots in here are way more appalling.

It’s skills like this that make me feel like investing too much into toughness is pointless.

Electra.7530:

Highest and worst damage ever done to me was vault, hit me for around 9k. I was appalled. But, the numbers on the screen shots in here are way more appalling.

Kinda like how this number is appalling? Or 20k Gunflames, or 15-20KCoRs or any other number of classes and skills that do more damage?

This game is a joke all around, with every class. Thank the balance Devs

Must be running very high armour if 9k is the worst you’ve seen.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Electra.7530:

Highest and worst damage ever done to me was vault, hit me for around 9k. I was appalled. But, the numbers on the screen shots in here are way more appalling.

Kinda like how this number is appalling? Or 20k Gunflames, or 15-20KCoRs or any other number of classes and skills that do more damage?

This game is a joke all around, with every class. Thank the balance Devs

Alright, whoa, now…

While I agree Gunflames, CoR’s and Vaults are ridiculous… Things like Maul bursts or Mesmer Shatters are a different story. That requires blowing multiple cooldowns and preparing to burst someone or gambling your chances and hoping it lands (which is never wise might I add, because then you’re sitting on a ton of cooldowns).

I’ve seen some insane Maul bursts, same with Drake Tail Swipes. Both are gimmicks and useless in the vast majority of scenarios. To top it off, the victim in that picture is an uplevel, I’m about 90% sure of it.

I understand the point you were trying to make but I just wanted to point out that a Maul burst is a lot different than just pressing literally one button and doing insanely high damage.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Electra.7530:

Highest and worst damage ever done to me was vault, hit me for around 9k. I was appalled. But, the numbers on the screen shots in here are way more appalling.

Kinda like how this number is appalling? Or 20k Gunflames, or 15-20KCoRs or any other number of classes and skills that do more damage?

This game is a joke all around, with every class. Thank the balance Devs

Alright, whoa, now…

While I agree Gunflames, CoR’s and Vaults are ridiculous… Things like Maul bursts or Mesmer Shatters are a different story. That requires blowing multiple cooldowns and preparing to burst someone or gambling your chances and hoping it lands (which is never wise might I add, because then you’re sitting on a ton of cooldowns).

I’ve seen some insane Maul bursts, same with Drake Tail Swipes. Both are gimmicks and useless in the vast majority of scenarios. To top it off, the victim in that picture is an uplevel, I’m about 90% sure of it.

I understand the point you were trying to make but I just wanted to point out that a Maul burst is a lot different than just pressing literally one button and doing insanely high damage.

Apparently it isn’t. Doesn’t matter how much setup or CDs were blown to get a burst, its higher damage than brainless, no CD vault so clearly vault is fine /s

Not many thieves use staff though, I saw video about 1 popular roaming thief playing staff thief, he was basically using staff 1 and 5, so maybe the skill is a bit broken. The weapon is not ^^
Video in question https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2kie0NZbLc

Obviously the guy isnt that bad because he doesnt die instantly on thief while stunbreaking almost instantly, but you can see him still spend 4 min killing DH that knows how to dodge/block stuff, so obviously the weaponset has some issues.

If the DH guy is running little tankier with lets say, around 2600 armor and is taking 3-4k damage from vault with protection. person running 2000 armor would take max 6k with protection and damage reduction food, 9k without protection.

please what about you guys stop crying about VAULT and learn to dodge or smth?
the fact you seems to not have a clue about when to dodge doesnt mean vault is OP.

Choppy.4183:

My point, and my only point, has been that the risk:reward ratio seems far off from what’s reasonable. 10-11k is a truckload of damage to deliver in a single hit (not the most in the game, but still a lot), and being able to drop three of those in succession for aoe damage and evade on 66% of the cast time seems borked to me.

In a vacuum you would be right… the skill reads like beastmode. However the skill doesn’t live in a vacuum. Thieves in a “fair” fight are easy to fend off or outright kill. The outcome of Vault for a thief just doesn’t live up to its paper stats. If Vault were so beastly it would be wrecking good players with regularity without needing a handicap. As it is now, it takes superior skill to make it even remotely deadly against an average player outside of hitting them while they are hurt or at some other disadvantage. The same can be said for something like Gunflame as well.

From my perspective I care more about the effectiveness of a build on the meta more than a single skill from a single weapon. Is Vault strong, yes. Is the build its attached to particularly scary, no. For me that means nothing needs to be done since any nerfs would further weaken a mediocre build in the current meta.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Electra.7530:

Highest and worst damage ever done to me was vault, hit me for around 9k. I was appalled. But, the numbers on the screen shots in here are way more appalling.

Kinda like how this number is appalling? Or 20k Gunflames, or 15-20KCoRs or any other number of classes and skills that do more damage?

This game is a joke all around, with every class. Thank the balance Devs

Alright, whoa, now…

While I agree Gunflames, CoR’s and Vaults are ridiculous… Things like Maul bursts or Mesmer Shatters are a different story. That requires blowing multiple cooldowns and preparing to burst someone or gambling your chances and hoping it lands (which is never wise might I add, because then you’re sitting on a ton of cooldowns).

I’ve seen some insane Maul bursts, same with Drake Tail Swipes. Both are gimmicks and useless in the vast majority of scenarios. To top it off, the victim in that picture is an uplevel, I’m about 90% sure of it.

I understand the point you were trying to make but I just wanted to point out that a Maul burst is a lot different than just pressing literally one button and doing insanely high damage.

Even in the case of vault and backstab, those kinds of sacrifices do need to be made as well. Without investing entirely into damage in traits/signets of power and consuming utilities, vault isn’t hitting for anything more.

Like the rest of the game post-HoT, however, the problem remains that you have an ability which both negates damage and does massive damage on a very short effective cooldown. While I think vault’s damage can absolutely use a shave since it’s so initiative-friendly and packs such high damage for those reasons alone, the bigger issue here isn’t the damage but the utility on top of the damage. Killshot still does more damage than Gun Flame, PW and Unload more than Vault, and those are not ever complained about, probably because they leave their respective players so vulnerable in general. The same is said about maul ranger, signet burst D/D thief, and signet core warrior; they’ve always had ridiculous burst potential, and none of them have historically been good builds due to the sacrifices made to get that damage often making them ineffective outside of edge-case use.

While vault itself is comparatively massively overpowered compared to the core game, and while not running huge burst it does high damage and is easy to use and relatively safe in mid-level play, it’s really not much different than most other HoT content.

Bottom line, HoT elites all need absolutely tremendous nerfs.

Fixing the forum bug.