Guild Wars 2

Straegen.2938:

In a vacuum you would be right… the skill reads like beastmode. However the skill doesn’t live in a vacuum. Thieves in a “fair” fight are easy to fend off or outright kill. The outcome of Vault for a thief just doesn’t live up to its paper stats. If Vault were so beastly it would be wrecking good players with regularity without needing a handicap. As it is now, it takes superior skill to make it even remotely deadly against an average player outside of hitting them while they are hurt or at some other disadvantage. The same can be said for something like Gunflame as well.

Man, I’m not sure how to explain it any more clearly to you. I’m not talking about “in a vacuum” or “on paper”, I’m talking about actual fights. I’ve repeatedly clarified that Vault’s not the most broken thing in the game, only that the risk:reward is way off.

I’ve also called out Gunflame, twice in this thread and repeatedly since it’s been introduced. I even provided the specific context in which Gunflame is a problem, though it’s less of a problem now than it used to be.

You seem to think Vault is fine. I say Vault carries bad players, allowing them to punch way above their weight.

Choppy.4183:

You seem to think Vault is fine. I say Vault carries bad players, allowing them to punch way above their weight.

The build just isn’t that effective in actual game play. Scrubs should be scared of it but pretty much every one else sees it coming a mile away and knows how to deal with it.

Playing the thief class is typically a harsh experience for most players. Other thieves particularly above average ones cannibalize their own at highly effective rates. Nothing about the class (outside of stealth stacking) is easy despite the constant complaining in the forums. Sure they are a pain for a few seconds and can sprint off… often right into another thief that isn’t on near full cooldown.

If we are looking at risk/reward builds, several are way in front of Staff thief. Most people get grumpy because they cannot catch one, got blown up while they were hurt, are running a poor solo build or a pack of them scorched them while they were trying to get to a tag then log on a gripe about it.

Straegen.2938:

The build just isn’t that effective in actual game play. Scrubs should be scared of it but pretty much every one else sees it coming a mile away and knows how to deal with it.
…
If we are looking at risk/reward builds, several are way in front of Staff thief.

Vault’s a weapon skill, not a build, and it’s overtuned (risk:reward is way too high). And there’s no line… someone started a thread about Vault, so that’s what’s being discussed.

kitten. Don’t nerf my stealth vault w/bounding dodger spam in perma quickness (while you have initiative). I already gave you invincible ghost thief.

But it still pales in comparison to pistol 4 (Headshot)/Impacting Disruption on any class that doesn’t have excessive reflects. You avoid them lame kitten Mesmers and you are golden.

You want to see obscene damage numbers? Try a 3.28 damage modifier for 4 initiative (plus you can use Steal interrupt/Disruptive Strike) at 900 range that’s basically 1/4th the cast time versus Vaults 2.25 damage modifier for 5 initiative that leaves you vulnerable for about 0.5s each time you use it. You don’t spam pistol 4 like Vault because if it gets reflected it hurts but that leaves you open for escape options since you’ll have initiative available (on the perma stealth weapon set) too.

Choppy.4183:

Vault’s a weapon skill, not a build, and it’s overtuned (risk:reward is way too high). And there’s no line… someone started a thread about Vault, so that’s what’s being discussed.

ANet should not try to adjust individual skills without looking at the whole picture. That is my primary point in this tangent. If Vault was so OP it would manifest in an OP build. Staff thief isn’t OP. Sure it is a big hitter in roaming but struggles in most other areas and is at best an average build to fight against barring outside factors.

Staff thief is a mobile big hitter but a build that gets nuked frequently by any number of other builds. Most players just don’t see the downside because they don’t play the build… instead they focus on the paper stats of the skill or the handful of times a thief caught them at an advantage and used it to blow them up. Which is EXACTLY the scenario the OP described.

People just love to QQ , don’t they?
A lot of classes can burst. Guardians, warriors, mesmers etc.
Why don’t you complain about Unload spamming P/P thieves? Those can do up to 50k (!) in a mere seconds, dropping target from full HP to respawn – from distance. Basilisk + steal won’t make your life easy countering that.
Why don’t you complain about perma-stealth condi trapper thieves? Out of nowhere your HP will go down rapidly to 0 and you won’t even know what/who is attacking you.

The thing is – thief is a very squishy class that is very hard to play properly. Yeah, thief can if lucky burst any class 1 vs 1, but the game is not about 1 vs 1, right? All classes have tools to do very well 1 vs 1. Vault has a long and obvious animation and is very easy to dodge in most cases.

Ray.1708:

People just love to QQ , don’t they?
A lot of classes can burst. Guardians, warriors, mesmers etc.
Why don’t you complain about Unload spamming P/P thieves? Those can do up to 50k (!) in a mere seconds, dropping target from full HP to respawn – from distance. Basilisk + steal won’t make your life easy countering that.
Why don’t you complain about perma-stealth condi trapper thieves? Out of nowhere your HP will go down rapidly to 0 and you won’t even know what/who is attacking you.

The thing is – thief is a very squishy class that is very hard to play properly. Yeah, thief can if lucky burst any class 1 vs 1, but the game is not about 1 vs 1, right? All classes have tools to do very well 1 vs 1. Vault has a long and obvious animation and is very easy to dodge in most cases.

People do complain about those builds as well. That doesn’t necessarily mean that any of these complaints hold merit in ANet’s opinion, but saying that people don’t complain about ghost thieves and thieves staying in stealth while loadnig you up with conditions is false.

I feel like if they nerf that build, they will make a good build (but far from the top) obsolete and the staff will never be used. On another note, I have no problem killing vault thieves. Actually much easier than guardians and mesmers. If you can’t beat them it is prob bc you don’t understand the many weaknesses, aren’t willing to adjust your tactics to exploit them, or just need to learn to pvp a little better. Or maybe you are running a build which is countered by them, but realize they are probably countered by more. For instance I can’t beat a decent necro with my vaulter and that is just one example.

Ray.1708:

People just love to QQ , don’t they?
A lot of classes can burst. Guardians, warriors, mesmers etc.
Why don’t you complain about Unload spamming P/P thieves? Those can do up to 50k (!) in a mere seconds, dropping target from full HP to respawn – from distance. Basilisk + steal won’t make your life easy countering that.
Why don’t you complain about perma-stealth condi trapper thieves? Out of nowhere your HP will go down rapidly to 0 and you won’t even know what/who is attacking you.

The thing is – thief is a very squishy class that is very hard to play properly. Yeah, thief can if lucky burst any class 1 vs 1, but the game is not about 1 vs 1, right? All classes have tools to do very well 1 vs 1. Vault has a long and obvious animation and is very easy to dodge in most cases.

Unload? Yeah, it has high burst, but it’s single target. Doesn’t even pierce. But with either dagger or unload, you are not evading while attacking and the cleave on dagger hits 3 people while vault is an aoe that hits 5. So, yeah, big difference.

Trapper thief? That’s one of the worst builds ever. They’re total jokes.

SlitheSlivier.1908:

I feel like if they nerf that build, they will make a good build (but far from the top) obsolete and the staff will never be used. On another note, I have no problem killing vault thieves. Actually much easier than guardians and mesmers. If you can’t beat them it is prob bc you don’t understand the many weaknesses, aren’t willing to adjust your tactics to exploit them, or just need to learn to pvp a little better.

Lol, so it’s a good build that is actually really easy to kill so if you lose to it it’s an l2p issue? Man, you need to get your story straight.

It’s practically a troll build, the power of which is enhanced by a spammable, high-damage aoe skill that includes an evade for 2/3 of its cast time plus decent escape and gap closing. Combine it with the stealth and mobility of d/p and you’ll only die if you want to. So, yeah, people can kill it as long as you stick around long enough to exhaust all of your evades, blocks, ports, etc. or stay in a fight with an obvious counter.

A simple loss of Vault’s evade, a large reduction on the damage, or an increase to the initiative cost is not an unreasonable nerf to get the risk:reward in better balance.

Choppy.4183:

SlitheSlivier.1908:

I feel like if they nerf that build, they will make a good build (but far from the top) obsolete and the staff will never be used. On another note, I have no problem killing vault thieves. Actually much easier than guardians and mesmers. If you can’t beat them it is prob bc you don’t understand the many weaknesses, aren’t willing to adjust your tactics to exploit them, or just need to learn to pvp a little better.

Lol, so it’s a good build that is actually really easy to kill so if you lose to it it’s an l2p issue? Man, you need to get your story straight.

It’s practically a troll build, the power of which is enhanced by a spammable, high-damage aoe skill that includes an evade for 2/3 of its cast time plus decent escape and gap closing. Combine it with the stealth and mobility of d/p and you’ll only die if you want to. So, yeah, people can kill it as long as you stick around long enough to exhaust all of your evades, blocks, ports, etc. or stay in a fight with an obvious counter.

A simple loss of Vault’s evade, a large reduction on the damage, or an increase to the initiative cost is not an unreasonable nerf to get the risk:reward in better balance.

By “good build” I mean it’s 1 out of 3 thief builds that is viable. Also you can kill new players or those unwilling to dodge and counter or adapt their tactics.
Anyone else can put up a fight. Anyone who learns how to play against it can kill it. I’ve faced mesmers, guardians, necros, and eles that consistently killed me in pvp. A majority? No, but that’s because of all of the people more willing to complain on the forums about a build that seems to counters theirs than finding a way to play against them. Doh.

Chiccotot.7296:

Full clerics gear and trinkets. Not sure how this guy is hitting like this much.

in addition- Just to note, I am not sure what the logic is to put evades on a skill that lands THIS MUCH DAMAGE. This skill shouldn’t be uninterruptible.

They’ve already got three evades, and that 1 more than everyone else has.

Please fix. Thanks.

/end rant/

Even thieves are complaining about it. No feedback from HQ tho, as ever.