Guild Wars 2

Previous topic was locked and this is a discussion that needs to be brought to the attention of our Gracious Overlords.

Venom share, particularly with necros, gives a large, verging on broken advantage to any sizeable group using them. Working as intended?

Edit: it would be great if members from dedicated WvW (ppt/gvg/havok/whatever) could weigh in on this.

It’s fine. I have it used against me all the time. It generally strikes me as an inconvenience, more than anything most of the time.

In my opinion, when you claim it as “broken” (typical ambiguous forum buzz word) yet avoid offering any detailed explanation to support that, well, then there is no reason to make a change.

Immob is the root of the problem. That’s where the ‘fix’ needs to be aimed.

you can’t condi clear it ?

I agree that the immobilize venom, when combined with necro wells, is problematic. There are only a few aoe immobilize skills in the game, and none of them pulse. Considering that immobilize is the strongest condition in the game (prevents movement and dodging, is unaffected by stability) this makes sense. Venom wells not only create a pulsing immobilize effect, but they allow groups to do it from 900 range. It is by far the strongest implementation of immobilize in the game. Thus, I think it’s perfectly valid to to look at whether it is perhaps too strong (i.e., “broken”).

Yes, this is a mechanic involving two professions that requires some coordination, which is great. I’m all in favoring of having skillful mechanics that, when coordinated, can be even more powerful than the sum of the individual profession mechanics. I think in theory this adds a lot of skillful team play to the game. I think it would also be fair to expect that a counter to venom wells should then require multiple professions as well (aka, condi clear from other professions, or perhaps the new resistance boon that they are debuting with HoT).

But at least in the game’s current state, I think immobilizing venom wells are “broken” because they are too easy to use and coordinate and have too powerful of an effect, while their available counters are not easy enough to use and coordinate and are not powerful enough of a mitigation.

There are two skills in the game that remove immobilize in an aoe: Warrior’s charge and Ele’s Windborne Speed. These abilities remove one immobilize condition from 10 and 5 allies respectively, before going on cooldown. They also require that an ally affected by immobilizing venom wells either be a warrior or ele, or have one nearby, and that that warrior or ele is either already in the correct weapon set/attunement (specifically warhorn for warrior and staff plus air attunement for ele) and that that weapon set/attunement isn’t on cooldown. That’s quite a lot of requirements for on-demand aoe immobilize support. Thus, by themselves we can’t rely on this two professions and specific skills to deal with pulsing immobilize from venom wells.

So then you have to throw in condi clear. Condi clear is usually plentiful in groups but it is imprecise; if the pulsing immobilizes from the venom wells are covered up by other conditions (and they usually will be) you can’t guarantee they will clear the immobilize effect. And because they immobilize pulses, it will just be reapplied a second or less after it is cleared. So the best counter to the pulsing immobilizes is a pulsing condi clear that can fight through other conditions as well as the pulsing immobilizes. The three pulsing aoe condi clears that I know of — fumigate on Engis with elixir gun, healing rain on staff ele, and well of power on necros — are all inadequate in their own way for dealing with immobilizes that pulse every second from range (healing rain only clears one condition every 3 seconds, fumigate clears many conditions but over a very short time period, after which immobilize can be reapplied, and well of power has a small aoe which requires that allies stay in it, negating the whole point of removing immobilize).

So then, in order to truly counter immobilize venom wells (which, bear in mind, can be given to multiple necros by a single thief), you need to counter them with aoe condi clears from allies that are specifically timed to each pulse. On the other hand, once necros cast a well after the immobilize venom has been shared, the well automatically pulses and requires no additional timing to snare enemies in it (it will automatically apply two immobilize effects). This is what I mean by immobilizing venom wells being easier to apply and more powerful than the available counters to them.

One obvious solution I could see to this is to make it so thieves can only share a single immobilize attack with their allies. This way, if necros or other allies of the thieves want to pulse an immobilize, they have to time it manually, instead of it happening automatically. In other words, make the ability to pulse immobilizes take at least as much skill and coordination as the ability to remove them.

TL;DR: Immobilizing venom wells are a great example of good group synergy mechanics, but in their current implementation they are more powerful and easy to coordinate than the available counters to them, and this is why I and many others would argue they are broken. A possible solution would be to require a bit more skill and coordination to use them (such as allowing thieves to only share one stack of an immobilizing venom) so that thief allies have to coordinate their attacks in order to manually pulse immobilizes on an enemy group.

Does that count as a more detailed explanation?

azizul.8469:

you can’t condi clear it ?

When it’s reapplied almost instantly it’s not fun and if you are a necro getting caught by venom immobilize you are pretty much dead.

The only thing that they can fix is making it possible to dodge roll during immobilization or make it back to how venoms were that it scaled off the condi duration of the person you are applying it to.

even the wall’s like venom share

Atherakhia.4086:

Immob is the root of the problem. That’s where the ‘fix’ needs to be aimed.

R/TrahearneJokes

Fat Disgrace.4275:

even the wall’s like venom share

New feature: Venomshare applied to walls now immobilize people moving on them or around them. You know you want it. Oh yeah.

It doesn’t need a nerf or a change….

It’s a team game, and if you have a problem with classes being able to synergize together to create stronger effects then you should try playing a game for solo players, like solitaire.

But, we could always nerf venom and wells then nerf fields + blasts cuz dark field + blast is OP anyway right?

Vermillion.4061:

azizul.8469:

you can’t condi clear it ?

When it’s reapplied almost instantly it’s not fun and if you are a necro getting caught by venom immobilize you are pretty much dead.

The only thing that they can fix is making it possible to dodge roll during immobilization or make it back to how venoms were that it scaled off the condi duration of the person you are applying it to.

It’s not reapplied instantly unless you’re the only person standing on the well. If a thief gave it to a necro and the necro’s well hits 5 ppl. Only 2 (3 if traited) of the 5 gets affected ONCE. It’s not per pulse its per hit. If you can’t be kitten d to bring cond clear well then its your fault.
I don’t understand why people keep raving about how good it is when its clearly not. If it hits a warrior that’s properly geared for hammer trains in WvW it’ll stop him moving for a like 0.2 seconds and completely waste the thief’s venom share.

Forestgreen.7981:

I don’t understand why people keep raving about how good it is when its clearly not. If it hits a warrior that’s properly geared for hammer trains in WvW it’ll stop him moving for a like 0.2 seconds and completely waste the thief’s venom share.

If its not OP why have EU guilds banned it from GvGs?

morrolan.9608:

Forestgreen.7981:

I don’t understand why people keep raving about how good it is when its clearly not. If it hits a warrior that’s properly geared for hammer trains in WvW it’ll stop him moving for a like 0.2 seconds and completely waste the thief’s venom share.

If its not OP why have EU guilds banned it from GvGs?

They don’t

if you are doing zergfight and do not bring condi clear, it’s your group’s fault. null field, guardian shout (with pure of voice), well of power, healing rain…. to name a few.

venom wells are fine. Seriously, there are so many counters to it, like others have mentioned Null Field and Healing Rain are both good examples of a way to counter them.

If the enemy’s group composition is beating yours. Compliment them on their sneakiness, and come up with a counter.

As an aside, the original post here was to continue this discussion, not to share my own views.

Personal opinion:
Beginning to think a lot of posters in this thread don’t run with organised/semi-organised WvW groups: do people understand the amount of damage zerk necros put out + a melee/FP group hitting an immobilised target?
There’s not much “counter play” to been hit by that in under 2 seconds.

Group synergy is great and all but a, lets be honest here, stupidly simple to perform synergy such as venom&wells is totally broken in a risk-reward sense.

To each their own of course but I would urge people that don’t really understand the issue to spend some time in even a semi-organised environment (reset with teamspeak for example on your respective eb’s) and perhaps you might change your mind.

Spammy tactics like immob wells vs condi clear spam are a symptom of the real problem, which is that condi vs condi clear is an arms race. If you have more condi than your enemy has clears then you counter their clears and if you have more clears than your enemy has condis you counter their condis. There’s no room for skill or strategy in a mechanic like that and any buffs or nerfs won’t address this problem.

The counterplay: is to find those weak thieves (and i bet is hard to find more than 2 of them, their only role is to share venoms with necros and then run run run.. so a role that not everybody like to fit in, expecially real thieves will dislike)
Reaction: just notice on TS: bunker that zone by pushing other melees a little in front and get ready to counterbomb if they come for capitalize, warriors then will know and will be ready to banner if needed.

Remember: they have to get close together to do that so work on preventing necro regroups. (if they do while stacking melees that means that necro have to wait some time till dropping wells = they won’t cast anything for ~5 second otherwise it will come too early and become uneffective.)

I got that venom bomb quite often but that’s anything you can’t deal with if you have trusted mates.

A good necro bomb can come up deadly even without venomshare, if you play in organized team you should know

In the end, it’s not something that randoms can do, it require a little bit of organization so why not let them have their success?

RlyOsim.2497:

As an aside, the original post here was to continue this discussion, not to share my own views.

Personal opinion:
Beginning to think a lot of posters in this thread don’t run with organised/semi-organised WvW groups: do people understand the amount of damage zerk necros put out + a melee/FP group hitting an immobilised target?
There’s not much “counter play” to been hit by that in under 2 seconds.

Group synergy is great and all but a, lets be honest here, stupidly simple to perform synergy such as venom&wells is totally broken in a risk-reward sense.

To each their own of course but I would urge people that don’t really understand the issue to spend some time in even a semi-organised environment (reset with teamspeak for example on your respective eb’s) and perhaps you might change your mind.

the simplest answer is don’t stand in their wells. Which is what you would normally do anyway. I do run with a guild as well as with pugs. Sometimes I’m on TS, sometimes I’m not.

Condi clear + dodge back(maybe twice) or a utility/weapon skill that moves you backwards(many classes have them).

Have I been caught in them and died due to it? Of course I have, but 90% of them time it’s because of one of these reasons:

a. Wasn’t paying attention since I’m also watching tv at the same time
b. Didn’t listen to commander and was nowhere near tag
c. Lag spike

Try to get your group to practice predicting enemy movements instead of just reacting to them. As an OCX player, I deal with bad lag all the time, our OCX commanders are the same. We quite often would pre-emptively move out of an area before the enemy even drops their bombs and venom wells.

Nate.3927:

RlyOsim.2497:

As an aside, the original post here was to continue this discussion, not to share my own views.

Personal opinion:
Beginning to think a lot of posters in this thread don’t run with organised/semi-organised WvW groups: do people understand the amount of damage zerk necros put out + a melee/FP group hitting an immobilised target?
There’s not much “counter play” to been hit by that in under 2 seconds.

Group synergy is great and all but a, lets be honest here, stupidly simple to perform synergy such as venom&wells is totally broken in a risk-reward sense.

To each their own of course but I would urge people that don’t really understand the issue to spend some time in even a semi-organised environment (reset with teamspeak for example on your respective eb’s) and perhaps you might change your mind.

the simplest answer is don’t stand in their wells. Which is what you would normally do anyway. I do run with a guild as well as with pugs. Sometimes I’m on TS, sometimes I’m not.

Condi clear + dodge back(maybe twice) or a utility/weapon skill that moves you backwards(many classes have them).

Have I been caught in them and died due to it? Of course I have, but 90% of them time it’s because of one of these reasons:

a. Wasn’t paying attention since I’m also watching tv at the same time
b. Didn’t listen to commander and was nowhere near tag
c. Lag spike

Try to get your group to practice predicting enemy movements instead of just reacting to them. As an OCX player, I deal with bad lag all the time, our OCX commanders are the same. We quite often would pre-emptively move out of an area before the enemy even drops their bombs and venom wells.

kinda hard to avoid a stealth-ed necro that unleashes their wells

pepper.6179:

Nate.3927:

RlyOsim.2497:

As an aside, the original post here was to continue this discussion, not to share my own views.

Personal opinion:
Beginning to think a lot of posters in this thread don’t run with organised/semi-organised WvW groups: do people understand the amount of damage zerk necros put out + a melee/FP group hitting an immobilised target?
There’s not much “counter play” to been hit by that in under 2 seconds.

Group synergy is great and all but a, lets be honest here, stupidly simple to perform synergy such as venom&wells is totally broken in a risk-reward sense.

To each their own of course but I would urge people that don’t really understand the issue to spend some time in even a semi-organised environment (reset with teamspeak for example on your respective eb’s) and perhaps you might change your mind.

the simplest answer is don’t stand in their wells. Which is what you would normally do anyway. I do run with a guild as well as with pugs. Sometimes I’m on TS, sometimes I’m not.

Condi clear + dodge back(maybe twice) or a utility/weapon skill that moves you backwards(many classes have them).

Have I been caught in them and died due to it? Of course I have, but 90% of them time it’s because of one of these reasons:

a. Wasn’t paying attention since I’m also watching tv at the same time
b. Didn’t listen to commander and was nowhere near tag
c. Lag spike

Try to get your group to practice predicting enemy movements instead of just reacting to them. As an OCX player, I deal with bad lag all the time, our OCX commanders are the same. We quite often would pre-emptively move out of an area before the enemy even drops their bombs and venom wells.

kinda hard to avoid a stealth-ed necro that unleashes their wells

use a thief + trap ranger to scout. stealth ranger, ranger drops traps. Traps trigger if enemy enters regardless of stealth.

or simply use anti stealth traps. A thief can easily sneak up and employ these traps in a smart place, prior to the zerg getting within the reach of the choke or area.

Be creative, we got tools to counter everything, even if they come at a slight inconvenience for the user.

900 well range, traps won’t do kitten. Even if they aren’t stealth they still can drop them and pulse immob. 4 power necros+1 venom share teef is powerful, afterall they are in the blackline meaning they’ll drop them after 1st contact.

Powerful? Yes. Overpowered? No.

Complaints like “doesn’t help if they’re stealthed” is equivalent to “doesn’t help when the enemy saw us coming and prepared a trap for us”. It has more to do with your group being unprepared than anything else.

Prysin.8542:

pepper.6179:

Nate.3927:

RlyOsim.2497:

As an aside, the original post here was to continue this discussion, not to share my own views.

Personal opinion:
Beginning to think a lot of posters in this thread don’t run with organised/semi-organised WvW groups: do people understand the amount of damage zerk necros put out + a melee/FP group hitting an immobilised target?
There’s not much “counter play” to been hit by that in under 2 seconds.

Group synergy is great and all but a, lets be honest here, stupidly simple to perform synergy such as venom&wells is totally broken in a risk-reward sense.

To each their own of course but I would urge people that don’t really understand the issue to spend some time in even a semi-organised environment (reset with teamspeak for example on your respective eb’s) and perhaps you might change your mind.

the simplest answer is don’t stand in their wells. Which is what you would normally do anyway. I do run with a guild as well as with pugs. Sometimes I’m on TS, sometimes I’m not.

Condi clear + dodge back(maybe twice) or a utility/weapon skill that moves you backwards(many classes have them).

Have I been caught in them and died due to it? Of course I have, but 90% of them time it’s because of one of these reasons:

a. Wasn’t paying attention since I’m also watching tv at the same time
b. Didn’t listen to commander and was nowhere near tag
c. Lag spike

Try to get your group to practice predicting enemy movements instead of just reacting to them. As an OCX player, I deal with bad lag all the time, our OCX commanders are the same. We quite often would pre-emptively move out of an area before the enemy even drops their bombs and venom wells.

kinda hard to avoid a stealth-ed necro that unleashes their wells

use a thief + trap ranger to scout. stealth ranger, ranger drops traps. Traps trigger if enemy enters regardless of stealth.

or simply use anti stealth traps. A thief can easily sneak up and employ these traps in a smart place, prior to the zerg getting within the reach of the choke or area.

Be creative, we got tools to counter everything, even if they come at a slight inconvenience for the user.

I don’t know how I feel about venom wells but I had to comment on what you said.. are you kidding me. You expect three measely traps to detect the stealthed necros in an open field fight given how big the playing field is.. this isn’t spvp where you sit on a tiny point expecting to get jumped. Do you have any idea how dynamic these fights are.. It’s not like youre sitting alone in a camp trying to anticipate a single necro about to jump you, how do you expect to see where the necros are in a chaotic fight like a 20v20. Also what makes you think the traps aren’t going to be set off by the other 20 or so enemies running around.

coglin.1867:

morrolan.9608:

Forestgreen.7981:

I don’t understand why people keep raving about how good it is when its clearly not. If it hits a warrior that’s properly geared for hammer trains in WvW it’ll stop him moving for a like 0.2 seconds and completely waste the thief’s venom share.

If its not OP why have EU guilds banned it from GvGs?

They don’t

According to those on the wvw forum they have.

BrickFurious.7169:

There are two skills in the game that remove immobilize in an aoe: Warrior’s charge and Ele’s Windborne Speed. These abilities remove one immobilize condition from 10 and 5 allies respectively, before going on cooldown. They also require that an ally affected by immobilizing venom wells either be a warrior or ele, or have one nearby, and that that warrior or ele is either already in the correct weapon set/attunement (specifically warhorn for warrior and staff plus air attunement for ele) and that that weapon set/attunement isn’t on cooldown. That’s quite a lot of requirements for on-demand aoe immobilize support. Thus, by themselves we can’t rely on this two professions and specific skills to deal with pulsing immobilize from venom wells.

Does that count as a more detailed explanation?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Condition#From_allies

Even if a skill doesn’t specifically target immobilize, it can still clear it. There are so many condition cleanses in this game that you really shouldn’t have an issue being stuck in wells. Heck, take a look at that entire page, not just condition removal from allies, and then realize how many options there are. Necros even access to skills that transfer conditions to their enemies. The whole venom well issue honestly comes down to a skill issue. Players who understand what’s going on will react appropriately and counter the play style, players who don’t adapt well won’t, and that’s when we see topics like this pop up.

You know what else is annoying to fight again? A group that consists only of hammer warriors/guardians as an engineer. But there are ways to do it if you adapt to the situation. Just because something counters your build or play style pretty hard doesn’t mean there isn’t a way around it. There are plenty of condition cleanses, both individual and party based, that gives counter play to venomshare, including venom well strategies.

godz raiden.2631:

Even if a skill doesn’t specifically target immobilize, it can still clear it.

RNG = luck.

Luck is not counterplay.

Changing venoms to being based off of the thief’s condi duration made a huge difference to how potent they are. Anyone who says that trait/food negates them has no idea how this game actually works.

+condi duration on the attacks sum with the -condi duration on the target being hit to give the total condi application. A venom share thief will be running:

+30% condi duration from trait line
+40% condi duration from food
+10% condi duration from toxic tuning crystal
+10% condi duration from malice sigil

for a whopping +90% condi duration. Which means that warriors with lemongrass, hoelbrak, and dogged march will end up breaking even, getting a 2 second immobilize on each hit of devourer venom. Even better, someone with no -condi duration will get almost a 4 second immobilize per proc. Yippee!

If you stand in a well kill zone, you will probably get 100-0’d in less than a second no matter what your build is, which means that if you don’t stunbreak or stability through the basilisk proc, you are going to die. So to get out of any venom well hit, you need a stab source and a soft cc cleanse in less than a second. Not too shabby!

Unfortunately, if you’re standing in a well bomb, you’re likely getting vuln + at least 1 converted boon to condition from wells. You’re getting chill, immobilize, and torment from venoms, and likely a slew of random conditions as well. So anyone saying that throwing a healing rain or well of power on the spot of the fight will do anything is hilariously naive since they clear one random condition per pulse!

This leaves your ways of dealing with this down to having a warrior toot their horn or a staff ele use their air 4. If neither of these happen or they don’t hit you, hope you have an invuln!

Venoms were typically not used in EU GvGs and you got funny looks for running them in NA GvGs. If you try to run them in any sort of 5v5 you’re probably going to get laughed at. The only real advantage an attacker has against them is that most people that play venom thieves are idiots and spend their time doing absolutely nothing between venom casts, so casters are slightly less likely to get ganked. But then again, those casters also might eat venomed-up rapid fires or life blasts, which are really fun!

Pichichi.1975:

Changing venoms to being based off of the thief’s condi duration made a huge difference to how potent they are. Anyone who says that trait/food negates them has no idea how this game actually works.

I think you are describing yourself.

Condition altering effects on the receiving end do not work off the base duration of the assailant.

Lets say you have a skill with 5s duration. Lets say you have 100% condition duration. That gives it a 10s. With With melandru + lemon grass = -65% duration. That takes a base 5s duration skill with a 100% duration added with gear and food down to 3.5s if the defender receiving the attack has negative condition duration.

That’s not even counting condition clears for ones self, group cleanses, traits that specifically negate immobilize, and skills that specifically break immobilize.

pepper.6179:

kinda hard to avoid a stealth-ed necro that unleashes their wells

So what? that same generic anecdote applies to every attack in the game.

Pichichi.1975:

Venoms were typically not used in EU GvGs and you got funny looks for running them in NA GvGs.

None of that is true. A few elitist EU guilds (who are not top tier) cried about it a few times and refused to fight. I hardly call that “typically not used” (Seems your out of tough with the current GvG scene) and NA would laugh you out of the area for crying about such a thing.

So unless you got strong evidence demonstrating that it is official, using cry baby guilds who lost a GvG as your example isn’t helping your argument.

Thought I left high school behind 25 yrs ago. Yet here I am dealing with bad roomers and weak math all over again.

The people who are saying it’s fine either rely on the tactic to win anything or are just describing pug blobbing. It’s kind of even pointless to discuss on here. It’s like if Anet listented to casual pvpers to balance Spvp. Anyone who has played in an actual competitive guild against others with really similar skill levels know how much it ruins the fights. There are not counters to it being properly executed besides doing it back. All it does is encourage pirate shipping and leader focus, the 2 worst things in GvG. It’s taking fun and enjoyment away from guilds, you see so many EU guilds dying because it’s just not fun anymore to deal with it.

L Step.8659:

The people who are saying it’s fine either rely on the tactic to win anything or are just describing pug blobbing.

Not true at all. In fact. it is entirely possible that it is our superior organization and possibly even combined skills that causes us to have little issue with it when on the receiving end.

L Step.8659:

It’s kind of even pointless to discuss on here.

Yes, because we are discussing, you are demanding. Your first sentence was blind assumptions and accusatory claims towards others for simply disagreeing with you.

L Step.8659:

Anyone who has played in an actual competitive guild against others with really similar skill levels know how much it ruins the fights.

My guild has defeated yours 6 out of the last 7 encounters. I can prove that with video. We didn’t have any venom thieves any those battles. By your own statements, does that mean my opinion trumps yours?

L Step.8659:

There are not counters to it being properly executed besides doing it back.

I saw multiple listed for you in detail in the other thread. You can claim the sky is red all you like. Posting it over and over will not make it true.

L Step.8659:

All it does is encourage pirate shipping and leader focus, the 2 worst things in GvG. It’s taking fun and enjoyment away from guilds, you see so many EU guilds dying because it’s just not fun anymore to deal with it.

GvG is irrelevant. This is the WvW forums.

dancingmonkey.4902:

L Step.8659:

The people who are saying it’s fine either rely on the tactic to win anything or are just describing pug blobbing.

Not true at all. In fact. it is entirely possible that it is our superior organization and possibly even combined skills that causes us to have little issue with it when on the receiving end.

L Step.8659:

It’s kind of even pointless to discuss on here.

Yes, because we are discussing, you are demanding. Your first sentence was blind assumptions and accusatory claims towards others for simply disagreeing with you.

L Step.8659:

Anyone who has played in an actual competitive guild against others with really similar skill levels know how much it ruins the fights.

My guild has defeated yours 6 out of the last 7 encounters. I can prove that with video. We didn’t have any venom thieves any those battles. By your own statements, does that mean my opinion trumps yours?

L Step.8659:

There are not counters to it being properly executed besides doing it back.

I saw multiple listed for you in detail in the other thread. You can claim the sky is red all you like. Posting it over and over will not make it true.

L Step.8659:

All it does is encourage pirate shipping and leader focus, the 2 worst things in GvG. It’s taking fun and enjoyment away from guilds, you see so many EU guilds dying because it’s just not fun anymore to deal with it.

GvG is irrelevant. This is the WvW forums.

- Is a fact. Even the best guild in EU, TA, had to cheese back against guilds like LaG. So unless you’re better than TA? (This is irrelevant to venomshare wells, just cheesy things in general.)

- The point alluded to my pvp balance comment, a majority of these posters are obviously just talking about pug blobbing where there’s no sense of organization or skill. Again, it’s like Anet nerfing things in Spvp not due to top tier play but to casuals.

- I have no clue what guild you are/were in. The only guild that had that type of dominance against us would’ve been TA though. It got so bad before Re disbanded TA were the only guild that wouldn’t leader focus or try something gimmicky and lame and actually were fun to fight against.

- These counters do not work if you’re playing people of equal skill level, your cleanses won’t keep up and you’ll get caught in a bomb and blown up. So unless you’re just fighting crappier opponents or doing something to them I don’t believe you at all. Suggesting we didn’t do everything possible to try and counter that without ruining the scene and being cheesy back is a joke.

- GvG is not irrelevant. It’s the only thing that needs balanced that has to take place in WvW. WvW is not meant to be balanced since it’s all about numbers and coverage, GvG isn’t. So it is the only thing actually impacted by ridiculous ‘skilled’ strategies.

Did I mention that dodge rolling through wells will also negate 1 stack of venom since it’s a MISS. Misses on venoms also trigger it. But screw that, you haven’t bothered to rebut any of the points to why its not OP. It’s not the venom share that is the problem it’s people with kitten poor positioning standing on wells. Send your complaints to zerker glass cannon necros running sigil fire/air + wells.

dancingmonkey.4902:

GvG is irrelevant. This is the WvW forums.

Without being rude, you are calling [Re] out without any mention of who you are running with? And to be frank, I have fought Re personally a good few times and while of course they are nabcakes (read: not on my server) they nonetheless deserve respect as a core WvW guild.

Feel free to post your guild tag….

Beyond that:

@forestgreen
Necros shouldn’t run zerk?

Not directed at you specifically but so many people here don’t have a clue about what venom wells are/represent. They are an incredibly toxic aspect of zvz/gvg fights. Really not intended to be rude to you specifically, if ‘you’ have fought against this in any kind of organised setting the statement of: there is no counter-play to venom wells, would make sense.

Of course the casual community are entitled to their opinion but without more than anecdotal discussion on the more core aspects of a gamemode that represents 1/3 of gw’s 2 how can it progress? More importantly, in the face of so many large/core/recognised guilds quitting, how can it not be on a continual decline?

coglin.1867:

It’s fine. I have it used against me all the time. It generally strikes me as an inconvenience, more than anything most of the time.

In my opinion, when you claim it as “broken” (typical ambiguous forum buzz word) yet avoid offering any detailed explanation to support that, well, then there is no reason to make a change.

I think the point is that wells are umblockable, so the venoms are like POWER! on POWER!!

I think pretty much someone is looking for a nerf only on wells,for god knows what reason.
I dont see any mention about venomed barrage or venomed meteor shower.
Necromancers wells are laughable on the range and dmg when compared with other class aoe multihits,and lets not go over the cooldowns.
Now as far the unblockable part,it really means nothing because it does nothing on invul enemies.
Ele engi guard and mes have invul on demand,warrior has stances plus move skill to get out of aoe and as far ranger…if you got hit by a well while holding a ranged weapon then you must be doing something wrong there.

BrickFurious.7169:

There are only a few aoe immobilize skills in the game, and none of them pulse.

Entangle ?

Forestgreen.7981:

Did I mention that dodge rolling through wells will also negate 1 stack of venom since it’s a MISS. Misses on venoms also trigger it. But screw that, you haven’t bothered to rebut any of the points to why its not OP. It’s not the venom share that is the problem it’s people with kitten poor positioning standing on wells. Send your complaints to zerker glass cannon necros running sigil fire/air + wells.

Wells hit from 900 range, that’s not a positioning issue. And the problem is that if you get hit by an immobilization venom well, you’ll stay stuck there because it pulses (i.e., unless you can perfectly anticipate when and where the well will be placed and dodge roll through, you can’t dodge the subsequent pulses).

Also I gave a long explanation above for why immobilization venom wells are OP and I’m still waiting for a rebuttal, hint hint.

grave of hearts.7830:

I think pretty much someone is looking for a nerf only on wells,for god knows what reason.
I dont see any mention about venomed barrage or venomed meteor shower.
Necromancers wells are laughable on the range and dmg when compared with other class aoe multihits,and lets not go over the cooldowns.
Now as far the unblockable part,it really means nothing because it does nothing on invul enemies.
Ele engi guard and mes have invul on demand,warrior has stances plus move skill to get out of aoe and as far ranger…if you got hit by a well while holding a ranged weapon then you must be doing something wrong there.

Necro wells are the #1 source of on-demand aoe burst damage in the current WvW meta, there’s nothing laughable about them. Combined with a pulsing immobilize from venom share that is overly difficult to condi clear (as I mentioned in my post near the top), they are a bit broken. You don’t see venom barrage mentioned because it doesn’t do as much damage and rangers aren’t used for on-demand aoe burst damage. You don’t see venom meteor showers because the damage is too dispersed, and you aren’t likely to land two meteors in a row on the same group of players.

TexZero.7910:

BrickFurious.7169:

There are only a few aoe immobilize skills in the game, and none of them pulse.

Entangle ?

Entangle is the closest thing the game has to a pulsing aoe immobilize. I didn’t mention it because it’s not usually an issue in WvW (it only pulses as long as the vines are there and they get destroyed by haphazard hammer swinging too quickly).

BrickFurious.7169:

the problem is that if you get hit by an immobilization venom well, you’ll stay stuck there because it pulses (i.e., unless you can perfectly anticipate when and where the well will be placed and dodge roll through, you can’t dodge the subsequent pulses).

You mean you personally are stuck their. I, and most of the players I play with would not.
Most warriors I know would use a leap that breaks immobilize and relocates you in one motion.
Most rangers I know would deal with it the same way.
Engineers would rocket boots out.
Thieves would, well, they have multiple ways. Mesmers use phase retreat.
Guardians, um, well, if I have to explain to you how they deal with venom wells like nothing, then you probably do not have the knowledge to make much of an argument in this thread anyway.
Same with eles, each weapon they have has a weapon skill to get them away from immobilize in a well.
Necros may have more trouble. Well, the bad ones will anyway. Well of power at your own feet is a good start. Spectral walk.

The problem isn’t that venom wells cannot be countered. I can train a monkey to counter them. The problem is, folks have generic meta builds they want to run. They get stuck in a rut, then cry and complain that Anet nerfs skills that harm those builds.

Now we all know it is a proven fact that venom wells can be countered. It has been proven in posted videos and explained in 4 threads. I am baffled by those posting here who had it explained or previously posted in threads with videos countering it, then demand that countering is impossible. It is a shame some posters claim “honor in GvG” then dishonestly claim something so simple cannot be countered, just because they do not like it on a personal level, or they have to adjust their build for it, and do not really want to. Those are such petty reasons to disingenuously cry fowl and demand a nerf in my opinion.

Our guild has tried to stay away from using it, but as more and more guilds and groups are using it we may have to start using it as well.

It does do a lot of damage esp when you get immobised, but if you can last through it the enemy group falls. It just staying alive long enough for it to time out.

But yeah, anet shout about balance everywhere, but there is not balance in WvW at all.
Even at launch when groups starting zerging, small guild groups fought them, but the zergs grew until there were no more small groups; so guilds had to zerg as well.

But that is the issue here, there is no solution thanks to anet, you can only become part of the problem; and if everyone is the problem, then anet seems to considered that balanced……

tl;dr Stop complaining and use it as well.

Buy Some Apples.6390:

But yeah, anet shout about balance everywhere, but there is not balance in WvW at all.
Even at launch when groups starting zerging, small guild groups fought them, but the zergs grew until there were no more small groups; so guilds had to zerg as well.

I do not understand the logic in your argument here.

Anet was very clear, before release that it is impossible to balance such large scale battles. As well they were very clear to state that WvW was not and would not be intended to be 1 to 1 balance.

Crying balance is irrational in my opinion.

Buy Some Apples.6390:

But that is the issue here, there is no solution thanks to anet, you can only become part of the problem; and if everyone is the problem, then anet seems to considered that balanced……

tl;dr Stop complaining and use it as well.

Again, your coming into the game mode that was advertised as not being balanced and crying fowl?

If it were truly out of balance, it would be abused in PvP. Instead, we have weak players or players who lack the ability to display awareness, over extending and running in tight balls to manipulate the benefits of the AoE cap, crying when something works against the idea on running in tight balled up blobs.

BrickFurious.7169:

TexZero.7910:

BrickFurious.7169:

There are only a few aoe immobilize skills in the game, and none of them pulse.

Entangle ?

Entangle is the closest thing the game has to a pulsing aoe immobilize. I didn’t mention it because it’s not usually an issue in WvW (it only pulses as long as the vines are there and they get destroyed by haphazard hammer swinging too quickly).

So it was just an oversight, continue then.

I agree that venom wells are strong, but i disagree with those saying there’s no counterplay.

There’s counterplay to venomwells. You have two very direct ways of countering it (kill the applicators, kill the receivers of said venoms). Not necessarily easy to do, but ease never was part of counterplay.

The argument here is very much like the long running argument against stealth. I rarely encounter rangers/engineers using their reveal skills in WvW because as they themselves put it “there better utilities to use and it wastes a slot” yet many will complain about having no counters to stealth .

It the same here. There is counter play to getting out of a well but people would rather rather not “waste a slot” to counter them or break out of the “stick with my blob” mentality.

Not wanting to take utilities or traits that will help one survive a venom well or not wanting to change ones own tactics is not the same as “there no counter play”.

What the views of those that prefer GvG battles are regarding the use of these wells is in fact irrelevant. GvG battles also prefer battles where both sides are the same in number. They also prefer open field battles where the other group not inside a castle wall. In the context of WvW the rules those running GvG like to set for themselves are artificial and should have no bearing on the debate over whether a skill overpowered.

BrickFurious.7169:

Forestgreen.7981:

Did I mention that dodge rolling through wells will also negate 1 stack of venom since it’s a MISS. Misses on venoms also trigger it. But screw that, you haven’t bothered to rebut any of the points to why its not OP. It’s not the venom share that is the problem it’s people with kitten poor positioning standing on wells. Send your complaints to zerker glass cannon necros running sigil fire/air + wells.

Wells hit from 900 range, that’s not a positioning issue. And the problem is that if you get hit by an immobilization venom well, you’ll stay stuck there because it pulses (i.e., unless you can perfectly anticipate when and where the well will be placed and dodge roll through, you can’t dodge the subsequent pulses).

Also I gave a long explanation above for why immobilization venom wells are OP and I’m still waiting for a rebuttal, hint hint.

Dude I’m in T1 server. There isn’t anything I’ve haven’t seen before. I already gave a rebuttal twice, you’re super OP venom wells only hits 2 ppl out of 5 ONCE is a 2s immolobize that can easily be cleared too op? Also its’ a aoe ground target almost everyone spams dodge rolls and will inevitably trigger the immolobizing effect rendering it useless. You literally do not know how venoms from thieves work at all. Go to PvP with 7 ppl and drop your amazing super OP wells on 5 people moving through it and watch it only hit 2 (3 if traited) people ONCE. If you think “pulsing” means anything it just means your damage ticks you don’t magically immobolize 10 people yourself.
I’m seriously questioning whether or not you actually understand any of this, also what server are you on and tier because I can’t tell you how many of these low tier servers come thinking they’re top shots get just wreckted in T1 since most of the folks with half a brain come to T1 for more fights.

If you’re still lost enjoy this video as it demonstrate exactly how it feels talking to you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg

Pff what is wrong with venom wells now. You become overpowered, your own kitten siege golem according to the OP?

Ahhh standing around unable to do anything until you die…. takes me back to DAoC. Such… fun?

We call them “Rat Wells”.
2 Reasons.
1. You are caught like a rat in a cage
2. Only a rat would use them.
Fair play though, if they get used then we will use them back and we can all go down
in a CC’d Pirate Ship together.

RIP fun WvW

Svarty.8019:

Ahhh standing around unable to do anything until you die…. takes me back to DAoC. Such… fun?

Ah well they used to be hammer stuns. No problem using venom sharing. And I dont mind using them on me either. Just another tactic, call them rat wells whatever. As long as the other blob dies.