Guild Wars 2

nightblood.7910:

What, break the only team support offering thief has?

The problem isn’t really the sharing of the venoms, the problem is how it interacts with wells, how a thief and 4 necros can decimate a zerg, and how immob stacks.

Lunacy Solacio.6514:

nightblood.7910:

What, break the only team support offering thief has?

The problem isn’t really the sharing of the venoms, the problem is how it interacts with wells, how a thief and 4 necros can decimate a zerg, and how immob stacks.

So what youre saying is the problem is the stability change and how that has affected this?

Well no actually stab doesnt affect immob.

The problem youre facing is that in HoT every thief in WvW will be running this due to the changes in teh trait system and still being able to deliver the goods even more so.

Hmm maybe its time that since stab took a nerf that it affect immob.

But I have to say if its pulsing the venoms with each pulse of the wells, then that doesnt seem correct. It should interact much like sigils do. The immob venom should only proc on the next two attacks which should only be two hits from the wells in the first pulse.

Is it not doing that?

Kitiara.2706:

Just make it so immob has dimishing returns, problem fixed without fully nerfing.

If they would revert immob back to the non-stacking way it used to work it would improve so much of the game. People would actually have to think about when to used immob skills more, and these kinds of issues would be better.

nightblood.7910:

Lunacy Solacio.6514:

nightblood.7910:

What, break the only team support offering thief has?

The problem isn’t really the sharing of the venoms, the problem is how it interacts with wells, how a thief and 4 necros can decimate a zerg, and how immob stacks.

So what youre saying is the problem is the stability change and how that has affected this?

Well no actually stab doesnt affect immob.

The problem youre facing is that in HoT every thief in WvW will be running this due to the changes in teh trait system and still being able to deliver the goods even more so.

Hmm maybe its time that since stab took a nerf that it affect immob.

But I have to say if its pulsing the venoms with each pulse of the wells, then that doesnt seem correct. It should interact much like sigils do. The immob venom should only proc on the next two attacks which should only be two pulses of the wells.

Is it not doing that?

wait what? wtf? when did I mention stability at all? wow… Just wow…

Ok, to refrain from attacking I’m going to just address what you said…

I’m sorry but my thief hasn’t run venom share in a year, and won’t just because of a change in traits. Why you sit there and say all thieves will be running it, idk…

I don’t think stability should affect immob. First and foremost the immob in air needs fixed but that’s a different issue.

Whether the venoms are used up on the first pulse or not depends how many targets are in each well. If 1 target, then each stack will get used up on each pulse. If multiple targets in the well then it will hit them all. But this isn’t just 1 well dropping it, you have 4 wells on each other. You may think well that’s 20 targets right? It doesn’t even work that way, a handful of people will be effectively perma-immob for a bit, and destroyed because of 4 wells pulsing high damage on them, while they can’t do a thing to get out, because even if they removed the immob when the wells were dropped, it gets put right back on them again. If they wait and try to clear condis, they will now have other conditions that will get removed instead of the immob.

Lunacy Solacio.6514:

nightblood.7910:

Lunacy Solacio.6514:

nightblood.7910:

What, break the only team support offering thief has?

The problem isn’t really the sharing of the venoms, the problem is how it interacts with wells, how a thief and 4 necros can decimate a zerg, and how immob stacks.

So what youre saying is the problem is the stability change and how that has affected this?

Well no actually stab doesnt affect immob.

The problem youre facing is that in HoT every thief in WvW will be running this due to the changes in teh trait system and still being able to deliver the goods even more so.

Hmm maybe its time that since stab took a nerf that it affect immob.

But I have to say if its pulsing the venoms with each pulse of the wells, then that doesnt seem correct. It should interact much like sigils do. The immob venom should only proc on the next two attacks which should only be two pulses of the wells.

Is it not doing that?

wait what? wtf? when did I mention stability at all? wow… Just wow…

Ok, to refrain from attacking I’m going to just address what you said…

I’m sorry but my thief hasn’t run venom share in a year, and won’t just because of a change in traits. Why you sit there and say all thieves will be running it, idk…

I don’t think stability should affect immob. First and foremost the immob in air needs fixed but that’s a different issue.

Whether the venoms are used up on the first pulse or not depends how many targets are in each well. If 1 target, then each stack will get used up on each pulse. If multiple targets in the well then it will hit them all. But this isn’t just 1 well dropping it, you have 4 wells on each other. You may think well that’s 20 targets right? It doesn’t even work that way, a handful of people will be effectively perma-immob for a bit, and destroyed because of 4 wells pulsing high damage on them, while they can’t do a thing to get out, because even if they removed the immob when the wells were dropped, it gets put right back on them again. If they wait and try to clear condis, they will now have other conditions that will get removed instead of the immob.

Calm down that was me thinking to myself kinda. Looking at possible resolutions to this.

I keep forgetting stab doesnt affect immob.

The reason I mentioned stab is looking for counter play. As always, any good skill needs a counter.

And I said “every” meaning metaphorically rather than literally because its easier to run it while still being able to deliver damage. To say exactly all will be running it, now I was incorrect, majority will though. Its already planned in team play PvP by the Abjured and so on because you will be able to still deliver the damage solo.

Of course some will choose acro (a selfish build) or crit strikes for whatever you feel crit strikes may be worth as its really not worth much in the new system over anything else that is available. Or other skills in the SA line that provide no team support.

I dont know how I keep forgetting the overreaction mentality of gw2 players on everything a person says. Ill keep that in mind next time.

Also there is at most 1 venom that immobs and it can only proc 3 times at most.

So if 3 people are standing in the well, then each may get hit with one stack of devourer venom. 4 wells really mean nothing to this. Its only on the next 3 attacks. So yes one person could get perma immobed by chance if no one else is stuck in said well. Or if there are multiple Necors dropping wells on the same spot, now you have more people.

But it doesnt aoe and pulse with each well which was stated earlier in this post.

Finally there is the resistance boon that is being added to this game, that I think is going to resolve much of the venom share problems anyway.

As resistance will counter it as it acts much like diamond skin.

So yeah actually, the counter to this and fix is on its way with resistance and aoe resistance from Revs.

If it hasn’t been said before(I’m not reading all of this), immobilize is the strongest condition in the game. It works more like a stun preventing movement and dodging AND can prevent ALL skills from being used due to mid-air immobilize. This will guarantee death once you get stuck for 5-10 sec with no skills because of AOE thief venom. It means the frontline can’t use their blast finishers(guard/war go in the air when blasting) or leaps. On top of immob is 3 more venoms….GG.

‘the well’ but these groups are 4 necros, that’s 4 wells on top of each other, those 3 people can be hit by all 4 wells and be royally screwed over >.<

4 wells that are giving the venoms most likely, however, the necros can drop an additional well each, or 2… all while the people are trapped within it, with a death sentence.

Lunacy Solacio.6514:

‘the well’ but these groups are 4 necros, that’s 4 wells on top of each other, those 3 people can be hit by all 4 wells and be royally screwed over >.<

4 wells that are giving the venoms most likely, however, the necros can drop an additional well each, or 2… all while the people are trapped within it, with a death sentence.

still math is not that simple theoretically you are right. practically, you’d probably see less then 3 targets as unless the necro is careful and time their placement, their wells will burn all immob on first target. 3 targets ONLY applies if 3 enemies are perfectly simultaneously entering the well on a pulse.

Due to the nature of wells, the math behind, and effectiveness is much more questionable then the theoretical numbers assume. I know this due to running trap ranger along with a friend running venomshare for a very very long time. We duo roamed like that for 3 months straight every day or two.

When you use venoms with things that pulses, it does not outright act as effective as it looks on paper.

there is also the question about actual sharing. If the group consists of 1 thief and 4 necromancers (the ideal setup for venomwells would probably be 2 thieves and 3 necros for maximum applications and uptime). Then assuming every necro is within the area of venomshare, you got a potent setup. However, practical reality is another story. Unless the thief + necro group is exceptionally well synced, they will probably not achieve this max share effect, and may waste the venoms on something stupid like a ranger pet or a hammer guard/warrior.

however a party consisting of thieves and necromancers will have no stability and virtually NO group cleansing, thus in the event of being left behind by the zerg or ending up tailing, they will have few means of catching up to the driver when facing the enemy.

Prysin.8542:

Lunacy Solacio.6514:

‘the well’ but these groups are 4 necros, that’s 4 wells on top of each other, those 3 people can be hit by all 4 wells and be royally screwed over >.<

4 wells that are giving the venoms most likely, however, the necros can drop an additional well each, or 2… all while the people are trapped within it, with a death sentence.

still math is not that simple theoretically you are right. practically, you’d probably see less then 3 targets as unless the necro is careful and time their placement, their wells will burn all immob on first target. 3 targets ONLY applies if 3 enemies are perfectly simultaneously entering the well on a pulse.

Due to the nature of wells, the math behind, and effectiveness is much more questionable then the theoretical numbers assume. I know this due to running trap ranger along with a friend running venomshare for a very very long time. We duo roamed like that for 3 months straight every day or two.

When you use venoms with things that pulses, it does not outright act as effective as it looks on paper.

there is also the question about actual sharing. If the group consists of 1 thief and 4 necromancers (the ideal setup for venomwells would probably be 2 thieves and 3 necros for maximum applications and uptime). Then assuming every necro is within the area of venomshare, you got a potent setup. However, practical reality is another story. Unless the thief + necro group is exceptionally well synced, they will probably not achieve this max share effect, and may waste the venoms on something stupid like a ranger pet or a hammer guard/warrior.

however a party consisting of thieves and necromancers will have no stability and virtually NO group cleansing, thus in the event of being left behind by the zerg or ending up tailing, they will have few means of catching up to the driver when facing the enemy.

I’ve seen it done, and had it done to me. Since I was on guard, running trooper runes, 2 shouts and purging flames, I was able to remove condi from a number of others, and they got out, however I was one of those immob’d repeatedly even when I removed it constantly with everything I had. Oh and don’t forget wells are unblockable and therefore the venoms are too… Sure, that was before the widespread adoption of it, and people will have to try and adapt around it, except can’t block it, can’t reflect it, even running -40 condi it lasts too long and gets reapplied anyways.

Now GvG’s run it, which is seen by many as rather bad-mannered and cheesy, but it will keep happening.

It was very easy for a thief doing it for the first time, and 4 necros doing it for the first time, to wipe entire zergs in EotM, and then they did the same in WvW. Isn’t that difficult. Ever roamed in a group of 5 with a thief and all gotten in SR to either attack from or run? It doesn’t take a lot of effort to be that coordinated. Wells don’t have to stack all on each other of course, more effective would be to spread it out a little but still somewhat overlap. It is very effective.

From my perspective using rat wells is something that minimizes skill. It’s a low skill tactic that requires a fairly high skill counter for your average W3 group. Eventually though the counter will become more widely used and then rat wells become less dangerous.

One thing that I see happening all the time is people confusing Venom Wells with Entangle. When you’re in large fights, the entangle roots are invisible, so it seems like a venom share thief.

Spurnshadow.3678:

One thing that I see happening all the time is people confusing Venom Wells with Entangle. When you’re in large fights, the entangle roots are invisible, so it seems like a venom share thief.

Some might be, but you’d hit the vines if you auto attacked. That is another skill that is very cruel with the immob, stacking an excessive amount. The whole primary issue is how immob works.

One thing that kittenes me off is that there’s been a bug out there for the LONGEST time (shocker) where you’re still stuck after imob wears off. You have to jump one or two times before you can move. I think this is killing people more than anything else. This bug needs to be addressed and fixed first before anything about how venom share works is changed.

if u guys really think skills like nullfield would counter venomwells i dunno against what kind of enemies u play. Nowadays Wells are used for big dmg spikes. That means not only 1 but lets say 5 necros are using their wells at the same time at the same spot. At the same time static fields and walls and maybe the meleetrain jumps on the enemies to CC them. So if those wells were used with venomshare, normally the victims only chance is a Port a block or invulnerability. Venomshare not only comes with 1 condition but with at least 3. And venomshare condis arent the only condis when u fight 20+. there are many conditions flying around and stacking on you while u try to remove that one annoying stack of immob.
Since there is no real priority when it comes to condition remove, ( I did many tests and its not always from the right to the left) as stated before when players get caught by one of these spikes only certain classes with the right utilityskills up make it out of there.
When a teammember gets caught by venomshare a guard normally has to use at least 2 skills to have a chance to get it off the teammate unless he uses Save yourself which means the guardian instead is now in a bad situation.

I think the pulsing effect of the wells isnt the problem here since you get spiked u are already dead after the first pulse.

Im playing in a smallscale guild we fight with 5 against 15 people normally. Since venomshare is so popular now we dont have a chance anymore against those groups.

For me there are two solutions here. One is giving us the option to choose the condi cleanse priorities and two is removing immobilize from venomshare and give them another condi instead.

Weez.6315:

if u guys really think skills like nullfield would counter venomwells i dunno against what kind of enemies u play. Nowadays Wells are used for big dmg spikes. That means not only 1 but lets say 5 necros are using their wells at the same time at the same spot. At the same time static fields and walls and maybe the meleetrain jumps on the enemies to CC them. So if those wells were used with venomshare, normally the victims only chance is a Port a block or invulnerability. Venomshare not only comes with 1 condition but with at least 3. And venomshare condis arent the only condis when u fight 20+. there are many conditions flying around and stacking on you while u try to remove that one annoying stack of immob.
Since there is no real priority when it comes to condition remove, ( I did many tests and its not always from the right to the left) as stated before when players get caught by one of these spikes only certain classes with the right utilityskills up make it out of there.
When a teammember gets caught by venomshare a guard normally has to use at least 2 skills to have a chance to get it off the teammate unless he uses Save yourself which means the guardian instead is now in a bad situation.

I think the pulsing effect of the wells isnt the problem here since you get spiked u are already dead after the first pulse.

Im playing in a smallscale guild we fight with 5 against 15 people normally. Since venomshare is so popular now we dont have a chance anymore against those groups.

For me there are two solutions here. One is giving us the option to choose the condi cleanse priorities and two is removing immobilize from venomshare and give them another condi instead.

even with 5 necros using 2-3 wells, that is STILL 5×3 applications of immob.

which WILL FOREVER BE 15 TOTAL APPLICATIONS, because math.

However these 15 applications IS SPREAD OUT ACROSS 3 seconds. Meaning ANY FIELD that pulses and cleanses stuff that matches up with the necros, unless the necros goes all “hey, first necro, then next then next then next” in a nice orderly line (GJ not having one necro blow that rotation out of greed), then no, you will no be unable to cleanse immob with nullfields, UNLESS, you are not in group with the mesmer and thus get downprioritized hard.

Long story short, if you want to combat necromancers with some sort of MELEE option, then ROLL A RANGER.
Why?
It has evasion on auto – takes less damage
It has a utility skill called Lightning Reflexes that removes immob (+2 more condies if traited), gives you vigor and evades backwards
It has a PULSING WATER FIELD THAT CLEANSES CONDIES, thus, yanno, hoorrayy we can deal with this on our own, maybe.
They have AOE condicleansing bears.
They have AOE full wipe condi cleansing signets, with passive cleansing
They have a trait moving 3 condies onto useless pet every 10 seconds
They can trait to get condi cleanse + fury when using Survival Skills such as ENTANGLE, you know that annoying root thingy that IMMOBS YOU. or Muddy Terrain, that brown puddle that IMMOBS YOU…. great aye?

And last but not least, you can do all this at once while being hated on by the entire enemy zerg. You will be targeted first, thus enemy will waste all immob on killing pesky rangers out of hatred, saving the remaining 70+ GWEN players.

GG rangers is your solution to saving GWEN.

Use the hatred.
Come over to the dark side, cuz well, we haz fluffy pets. Chicks love fluffy pets.

I’m telling you it’s the immob bug that’s killing you more than the actuall strategy. How many times have you not had immob on you, not been staticed, had stability, and still stuck in wells? Tons.

Spurnshadow.3678:

I’m telling you it’s the immob bug that’s killing you more than the actuall strategy. How many times have you not had immob on you, not been staticed, had stability, and still stuck in wells? Tons.

twice
both in sPvP

why not in WvW?
Wellomancer sucks in roaming

Engineer commanders and ranger melee trains.
I think the community might need a little more time with this issue before a real discussion can begin.

Signing off from thread o/

I main thief and I will agree that immob venom + venom share is beyond broken. In fact, I think any build that uses full Shadow Arts is completely broken. These are my opinions: a good thief won’t use a full SA trait line, and SA should be completely reworked.

Immob is the issue and it needs to get the F out! The Dev’s need to stop coming up with ways to troll other players. There’s not enough condi removal to deal with the condi spamming as it is. HoT will introduce a whole new level of suck on this.

There are multiple sources of Immobilize some on much lower cooldowns then a venom.

As example throw Bolas is on a lower cooldown with a longer immob.

If I am hit with a throw bolas followed by a zealots embrace I m just as dead as if I were hit by devourer venom three times in a row.

The issue the interaction of devoures venom WITH venomshare and WITH a well. This in fact is no more deadly then multiples of any other attack from stacked in a given area. A static field with several engies with nades or bombs saturating an area makes you just as dead. A multiple of AOES from MS or other area type attacks in conjunction with a multiple of CCS makes you just as dead.

Multiple attack type spells coupled with CCS saturating a given area will kill anyone. That is just the nature of the beast. Avoiding those types of areas means dispersing the zerg and people do not seem want to do that.

DeWolfe.2174:

Immob is the issue and it needs to get the F out! The Dev’s need to stop coming up with ways to troll other players. There’s not enough condi removal to deal with the condi spamming as it is. HoT will introduce a whole new level of suck on this.

There isnt enough condi removal when it can stack like this, that’s for sure.

moloko.4123:

I main thief and I will agree that immob venom + venom share is beyond broken. In fact, I think any build that uses full Shadow Arts is completely broken. These are my opinions: a good thief won’t use a full SA trait line, and SA should be completely reworked.

As a fellow thief, I’m totally cool with this, again, because I don’t use it (it is a scrub trait line). The brokenness that is SA has caused nerfs to the rest of the class for what is basically no apparent reason than to not nerf SA.