Guild Wars 2

This is an interesting video from May of this year featuring Anet’s head of marketing, Steve Fowler, and Josh Davis, the competitive events manager who brought us the golem event:

Building a Competitive Game Program

The context is more pvp, and a discussion about growing support for competitive pvp, but indirectly the presentation says quite a bit about their stance with wvw. From their presentation:

• Competitive players have higher than average retention rates
• Competitive players tend to play longer than non-competitive game-type players
• Players monetize better the more they play
• Lifetime value is higher for competitive players than non-competitive players

Some interesting highlights of the presentation:

20:32 – Josh discussing the concept of facilitating player progression from casual to competitive, and the need to facilitate growth. Steve follows up by pointing out that pvp can be intimidating to the casual player, and the importance of maintaining varying levels of competitiveness to slowly encourage players into pvp and thereby increase GW2 participation overall.

2:50 – Steve Fowler discusses why Anet is interested in competitive gaming.

20:15 – Steve’s sick burn of Josh

I had written once on this forum that in my mind the apparently combative stance taken with the wvw community was a missed opportunity on the part of Anet. A missed opportunity to sustain population (money), and also increase pvp participation. Everyone starts off in PvE and wvw is/can be a nice intermediate step into getting into pvp, which seemed to me was where Anet’s business plan was originally heavily invested, and supported in the video above. In my opinion, that chain of potential player development was hindered when Anet chose to view wvw as a competing format for pvp-oriented players rather than a platform to generate new pvp players.

The link between PvE and WvW was strained when the forums were removed, again when megaservers came in, and again further when recruiting forums were folded into a jumbled mass. WvW players are the only users who have to pay to transfer to keep the mode they play interesting, or accompany guild members.

WvW is increasingly becoming a mode that caters to the casual player, or deincentivizes organized play, and thereby stratifies the gameplay combat scale and stagnates the average skill level in a game with amazing combat potential/design. The more ‘hardcore’ players who in the past used to lead, take in, and teach new players basic skills in game have become more insular in an effort to maintain their guilds in response to the frustrations mentioned here, and declining participation. This forces new and disenfranchised players to fall back on a blob mentality which diminishes the potential for variety and development, and further, their transition into pvp.

So, as a player who optimistically pre-purchased two expansions, I have to say I’m a bit disappointed so far by the lack of effort to address the core issues relating to the deterioration of the game mode.

I believe the developers are a group of intelligent, well-intentioned individuals. But I would encourage you to engage the community on some meaningful level in an effort to keep the mode from devolving to what we see in EotM, which isn’t good for us, or your long-term profit. Working with us can help you to further your goals.

constructive things. Good stuff

Good read. Always heard that ANet wanted to use WvW as the stepping stone from PvE to PvP. But honestly don’t think I’ve ever seen it. Seen more people go PvE->PvP->WvW.

“Competitive gaming” ?

Published on Jul 19, 2015

‘According to Arena net President: Mike O’brien, wvw is not competitive to go to or to play’

In result: the video of Building a Competitive Game Program are only words.

" Actions Always Proves Why Words Mean Nothing "

That is all

DarkSyze.8627:

“Competitive gaming”

Published on Jul 19, 2015

‘According to Arena net President: Mike O’brien, wvw is not competitive to go to or to play’

In result: the video of Building a Competitive Game Program are only words.

" Actions Always Proves Why Words Mean Nothing "

That is all

Like the actions of cutting a video in such a way it says something totally different. Your words here are indeed meaningless.

WvW population matters

- Servers have vastly varying populations

- Quantity, quality, and coverage are the three major factors in what makes a good matchup
- “a good fight” is roughly balanced forces, where “balance” mixes quality and quantity

- off-hours flips affect prime time play

- Please listen to us – dedicated WvW player base and finally do something about WvW population imbalance

- Sheep leave if they are just being fed to wolves, wolves leave if there are no sheep

KittyCat.2059:

- Sheep leave if they are just being fed to wolves, wolves leave if there are no sheep

And this is why the current server-based model fails to work and always will, and why ANet is losing people.

Excellent and constructive post. I agree on everything, except I do NOT see WvWvW as a bridge between pve and spvp. WvWvW is the true end game of GW2. I know much more players who only enjoy WvWvW and are not interested in spvp or much any pve.

I hope the Arenanet staff reads this thread.

FrizzFreston.5290:

DarkSyze.8627:

“Competitive gaming”

Published on Jul 19, 2015

‘According to Arena net President: Mike O’brien, wvw is not competitive to go to or to play’

In result: the video of Building a Competitive Game Program are only words.

" Actions Always Proves Why Words Mean Nothing "

That is all

Like the actions of cutting a video in such a way it says something totally different. Your words here are indeed meaningless.

Cutting a video? Meaningless? This video is 100% real. Do research before commenting to evidence.

Research: PAX South ArenaNet Interview 2015

I also don’t see WvW as a portal to PvP. They are so vastly different. I personally don’t like PvP for the moba aspect. I also hate the fact that there is almost no build variety. I still do PvP just to break things up. If anything, I’d say PvP is a gateway to WvW.

If they really wanted to get into eSports, WvW is where they should have put their focus. Their sPvP isn’t so much better or different from anything else out there to generate the viewers and participants needed to have a successful eSport. WvW, on the other hand, is very different. That’s where they could have made their mark.

And viewers is bolded for a reason, if you wanna be an eSport, you gotta get people watching your pros playing. And GW2 gets laughable viewership on twitch, and none of the employees (that I’ve seen) stream. Nor does it seem they support their streamers as much as they could.

First post I made on this forum: “Where is the GvG game mode?”
I still can’t find it, even Stronghold is evolving to be a rush the lord thing with even less actual fighting between players.

Maybe it’s all about “business” and “pleasure”, why people are playing PvP? For the pleasure part, participants want competition and challenge. If there’s no competition, why bother, if there’s no challenge it gets boring. As for the business part, what’s there to gain? Fame, fortune, and glory! I know it’s cliche, but it’s a reality. What pulls other players aside from those who want a good battle, win or lose? And no, I’m not talking about Glory Points. Maybe they should focus on these two points, “business and pleasure” to do PvP?

DarkSyze.8627:

" Actions Always Proves Why Words Mean Nothing "

That is all

/signed 1000%

The thing is Anet is and has always been good at talking. When it comes to getting things done you hear either “soon” or nothing at all. You can´t believe them in any way. Look at how poorly they made the golem event, how many exploits are around because they do not even care to test their own kitten.

We’re getting entirely new Borderlands maps and I think we should reserve some judgment until we get to play them don’t you?

Thanks for your comments. I agree, in practice WvW may not be a bridge for a lot of people. I tend to view that reality as being more a function of the red-headed stepchild phenomenon in how WvW is treated out of the modes. Over the years, Anet has made PvP more accessible/rewarding and WvW less accessible (but consistently, significantly less rewarding). So naturally, it’s probably the last thing many people get into.

My comment was more on the potential for WvW to be a bridge, as opposed to the current dynamic, if managed properly. I also view WvW as endgame, but I see PvP as a valuable asset to be played in parallel. PvP is a great way to learn and refine skill rotations and counters, and minutiae that can be overlooked in the chaos of large-scale fights.

I’ve spent a decent amount of time since beta observing players purge from a server, then rebuild, develop and repeat the purge. Player progression in WvW often goes from a person doing a lot of the more accessible things like scouting, capping objectives, building and maintaining siege, etc. Eventually you wrap your head around the idea of class builds and start to get into combat a bit more, maybe you even tag up and lead people to cap objectives. Then I see a lot of those people get their attention grabbed by the combat. Pugmanders who find they enjoy the combat more and more, and get tired of having an unstable team behind them, start their own guilds and recruit, they learn about optimal group composition and open field strategy. Eventually maybe they move on to zerg busting or gvg.

But we’ve seen the rift that can form in a community between PPT players and combat-oriented players. In my opinion this tends to be a result of combat-oriented players having perhaps played the mode a bit longer, on average, and is really more of a reflection of their frustration with the underlying futility of the mode which is traced back to the inattention that has most of us worked-up on this forum. Combat players start to identify their PPT-loving teammates with the oppressive overlords who malign their interests seemingly at every development turn. People used to respect this balance a bit more, but now, after years of neglect and PPT play encroaching more on the overall gameplay in the mode, it tends to be viewed more like a hostile takeover.

I would guess that most of us who’ve played long enough have seen what happens when you have too many of either type of player in a server. Become too fight-oriented and the server feels isolated and unwelcoming, become too PPT-oriented and the variety of gameplay suffers as people tend to cluster together.

But, back on point: like it or not, a healthy WvW environment has players which span a spectrum of interests. That spectrum, which is unique in the game mode, has (or maybe moreso the past-tense, had) the potential to ease more people into the beauty of the combat, if taking the plunge right into PvP was slightly intimidating.

I should also point out I’m not trying to say either PvP or WvW is the pinnacle of development as a competitive player. You have good fighters in both, and more often than not, the stronger combat guilds in WvW participate in some capacity in PvP.

Epsilon Atreides.3816:

So, as a player who optimistically pre-purchased two expansions, I have to say I’m a bit disappointed so far by the lack of effort to address the core issues relating to the deterioration of the game mode.

I feel exactly the same. But when it’s been said 100 times and Anet still doesn’t answer there isn’t much we can do. I also wished I didn’t pre-order HoT so swiftly.

When I look at upcoming trailers like Overwatch I’m thinking “I could play this every day competitively”, while when I think about GW2 expansion I’m thinking “I hope they also fix all the core issues with server balance and PPT system, I hope they rebalance pvp and make 5 more stronghold map, etc”.

What has kept GW2 WvW going is in my opinion the lack of decent competition, because the mode was not supported by Anet as it should have been, and we are paying for that now again with this new golem event full of bugs and exploits.

It’s been an education reading the forums over the weekend.
I read Menaka’s post yesterday and after all the hype and confusion, it really made me think. I have seen 2 videos, the interview with Reyna
(the long version) and the podcast on Competitive Gaming. It was an eye opener!.

Watching and reading I kept thinking why with the numbers we have, the hours of play we have put in and the money we’ve spent moving servers, we don’t register with Anet as a viable development option? I see am being forced to play differently, we get small reductions in the cost, when other gamers get incentives and that nobody would talk to us after Devon Carver left.

Colin Johanson and Mike O’Brien said Anet never talk about specific player numbers and ignored the existence of WvW players and their issues. Why?
Steve Fowler quotes off stacks of data analysis info and a chart showing % of players who played PvP since release, which is obviously very exciting because Joshua Davis has been sent over from the Marketing department to help out with setting up all the new tournaments, and sales / income opportunities.
Steve Fowler puts it out there, competitive gamers spend more than any other group of gamers and the longer you play, the more money they make. After watching the podcast, I get a clearer idea of Anet’s interests and focus, PvE follows on in the footsteps of GW1, but Menaka is 100% right, the Future is eSPOOOOORTSSSSS. This is big business and money, but WvW is not on the agenda.

Josh Davis thinks PvE players should be ‘encouraged’ into competitive play (which explains the Golems perfectly) and its not WvW he’s directing them too, Its PvP and they got TV, Twitch, Chat, real money and Stronghold.

Colin Johanson talked about sticking plaster solutions in WvW (the Original Maps ?) and the new Desert Borderlands Map has improvements. His description is of choke points, power channeling and new gizmos for the Towers and if you add the rumors about Guild halls, it sounds awesome ..

It could all go horribly wrong and we lose the server communities? We do not have a dialog with Anet, we have not helped ourselves either. I come on and rage when I’m frustrated .. we want alot but I think Anet muted us.

If we are going to turn this around I think ‘we’ have to do something along the lines of the player tournaments that PvP arranged and stop waiting or thinking .. that Anets going to help us.

“We” can’t control the matchups, guilds, and coverage/number disparities and the overall pug community within WvW to make it as interesting as it could be. Those are handled by poor systems on ANet’s end which aside from purposely plummeting tiers, we can’t do.

Guess the devs never played DaOC…

No, it isn’t LoL or any other RTS type esport. However, it was very competitive in regards to player, guild, and alliance stature. You had the hard core 8 man roaming groups just as you had the solo stealthers controlling the main gates. You had scouts, solo, and then you had relic takers and zergs.

Here there is no relic. There is no reason to defend. There is no player portal listing players, classes, guilds, or anything relating to a searchable information board. No bragging rights. WvW ranks are increased by boosts and EoTM map play. No alliances. No developer commitment or feed back. Nothing to separate progression between anything else.

Thank you Warcraft World for defining the play of sPvP because not everyone likes being confined to a set map size or space. Some actually like the open world PvP that RvR / WvW yields when done halfway right.

Colin made point of saying how “important” WvW was but it’s very clear that what he is talking about is his idea of WvW not what we actually play or want as the real WvW players. Exploiting the situation with high server transfer fees when it doesn’t really matter anymore with megaserver, and is absolutely unrelated to actual server WvW populations just makes like a slap in the face. My guild is down to about 15 active players, 6-8 months ago we were 40 and a year and half more like 80….

WvW is their end game .. Colin Johanson said that.

PvPers are their cash cow and the Gemstore is the milking machine … Josh Davis has a bunch to say about that! Watch the video link at the top and see for your self.

The CeO of Anet doesn’t understand that WvW isn’t PvE …

We got lost in the wash … We are not accounted for. Maybe they put the WvW numbers in the PvP columns or … just messed up. Either way the result is were invisible to Anet.

Right now they about to give us a ‘Game changer’ .. In Colin we trust .. because we have no other option with Anet and there’s nowhere else to play like this.

DarkSyze.8627:

FrizzFreston.5290:

DarkSyze.8627:

“Competitive gaming”

Published on Jul 19, 2015

‘According to Arena net President: Mike O’brien, wvw is not competitive to go to or to play’

In result: the video of Building a Competitive Game Program are only words.

" Actions Always Proves Why Words Mean Nothing "

That is all

Like the actions of cutting a video in such a way it says something totally different. Your words here are indeed meaningless.

Cutting a video? Meaningless? This video is 100% real. Do research before commenting to evidence.

Research: PAX South ArenaNet Interview 2015

I watched the original. The piece of crap you posted there is still artificial.

If you want to make a honest point you would have posted the original video with a timestamp.

They simply refuse to acknowledge that their PvP has totally failed and that WvW is their customers’ preferred player vs player mode.

WvW supports a multitude of playstyles, giving almost every type of player what they want out of player vs player. It’s perfect for the kind of PvE that GW2 has.

What a waste.

i’m sorry. i stopped watching a quarter of the way. they have to rebuild trust first. as for my part, i just can’t take videos like this from arenanet seriously anymore. no. they can start with a balance hotfix(keyword: clones) from the last patch. then i’ll consider giving a quarter of my trust back then. acknowledge golem event problems before week has ended and i might give half.

anet need to stop the esport nonsense and accept that esport is not applicable to mmorpg, an mmorpg is an mmorpg, it is not fps or moba or rts. gw2 can never enter esport scene which is catered to structured and well designed competitive focused games.

i know a lot of competitive players quitted the game and those who are still playing is because they are just merely waiting for a worthwhile buy to play title and yes, gw2 only value is the “buy-to-play” but competitive wise, is crap. anet idea of competitive is really not that related to mmorpg

SkyShroud.2865:

anet need to stop the esport nonsense and accept that esport is not applicable to mmorpg, an mmorpg is an mmorpg, it is not fps or moba or rts. gw2 can never enter esport scene which is catered to structured and well designed competitive focused games.

i know a lot of competitive players quitted the game and those who are still playing is because they are just merely waiting for a worthwhile buy to play title and yes, gw2 only value is the “buy-to-play” but competitive wise, is crap. anet idea of competitive is really not that related to mmorpg

I think you watched the Vid, and if you did I’m fascinated how you could call eSPORTs nonsense?
Josh Davis has done a fantastic job for PvP players in GW2 and Anet.
The fact that he suggested the Golem event .. fits perfectly with what he’s saying.
Anet need WvW to turn PvE players in to PvP players.

Lola.4172:

The fact that he suggested the Golem event .. fits perfectly with what he’s saying.
Anet need WvW to turn PvE players in to PvP players.

You don’t turn PvE players into PvP players by trivializing a week of WvW into a senseless ktrain. All that does is hampers PvP, as shown through EotM. If you really want to try and get people interesting through WvW, then you provide better incentives to work towards through actual competition and tweek mechanics to ensure more variety week to week. By doing that you can actually attract people into WvW and keep them invested, while also in a way that challenges them to think about how they’re going to engage other players.

Lord Kuru.3685:

They simply refuse to acknowledge that their PvP has totally failed and that WvW is their customers’ preferred player vs player mode.

WvW supports a multitude of playstyles, giving almost every type of player what they want out of player vs player. It’s perfect for the kind of PvE that GW2 has.

What a waste.

It’s sad, because WvW is such a unique gamemode right now. If they went all out with it, they could really make a splash. Instead they’re trying to compete with MOBA’s and other small-scale structured pvp games, and if you look at twitch viewer rates on the official tournaments, it’s safe to say they’re not competing at all.

And then they go and bork it all up with the specialization restructuring… Sigh.

Damian.6978:

Lord Kuru.3685:

They simply refuse to acknowledge that their PvP has totally failed and that WvW is their customers’ preferred player vs player mode.

WvW supports a multitude of playstyles, giving almost every type of player what they want out of player vs player. It’s perfect for the kind of PvE that GW2 has.

What a waste.

It’s sad, because WvW is such a unique gamemode right now. If they went all out with it, they could really make a splash. Instead they’re trying to compete with MOBA’s and other small-scale structured pvp games, and if you look at twitch viewer rates on the official tournaments, it’s safe to say they’re not competing at all.

And then they go and bork it all up with the specialization restructuring… Sigh.

Yeah, WvW could have been their eSport. Right now you don’t make it big in eSports by doing more of the same. You have to have something to differentiate yourself from similar games, and WvW could have been that thing. A missed opportunity, to be sure.