Guild Wars 2

I made this post after I heard in the twitter feed weekend they was going to look at trying to fix night capping. It’s mostly just a brain storming session of how I hope the dev’s see this post as well.

Usually night capping is the other servers have nothing or no one on them and the other server have just 5 people well or more just no one a all to stop them so it’s pvd (player vs door)..so there only one way to counter that no people vs some. give towers/keeps some automated defenses IE npc’s use cannons /morters ect it can be tied to the out maned buff that looks at all maps if your outmatched everywhere then the heck nothing you can do. but also another idea coop wvw and by that say 1 server has say for the sake or argument 500 PPT the game can auto allie the other 2 servers so that is 2 vs 1 as the other 2 servers have nothing by this time anyway they should not but heads that much although then it be a matter of who gets the cap a tower/keep in a joint effort when they are competing..a pool of ppt that is split by half that is given to the 2 servers when the other server ppt drops below the before said 500? and that is at least 1 of each server is in the cap ring to add to this pool.

I’m thinking terms of balance when I say this when one doming server is able to do what they want because they moved down from a higher tier and have full coverage the 100 vs 5 week is bad.. then having to fight the other poor server getting beat up just as badly feel like your fighting for table scraps. Also not to mention if the opposing server has a axe to grind with you they can be jerks I have been against some servers that kick our buts that have been generous to us let us cap stuff not upgrade to make it easier but then that is a crappy feeling to not earn what you cap and also not be able to log into wvw and know you will have a real wvw experience aka a zerg at your back or a real army rag tag out maned thing is okie but that is what havok teams are for in wvw. But you can be outmanned in normal wvw and then be like welp this is pointless and go to edge of the mist and just as good of a chance to only have 5 people on your side (Blue side in edge of the mist is natorios for being low on man power and no commander) So yea No wvw for you today essentially shutting you out of a part of gw’s 2 so yea edge of the mist does not solve that problem in case the Dev’s though it did. Also with the mega server Server Identity is no more you use to go to lion’s arch and call on more to help can’t now because the people your fighting is also there so down side to mega servers impacting wvw gameplay. But that was just some examples of unbalanced wvw and now back to way’s of rant of idea’s on how to fix them.

The Outmaned buff should stack like bloodlust if your out maned on every map your obviously in trouble? everyone can agree to this? But it should stack a defense and attack buff? as your backed into a corner and all and even maybe extend the invulnerability area outside the spawn further out just pitching idea’s with that one but that is why I made this post part rant brain storming. Maybe a Dev can add some of there own idea’s or other players and area net can see what works what don’t what needs to be adjusted. Heck maybe wvw need to be redesigned around guilds. Maybe at the beginning of each week have guilds pick a wvw matchup they wana be in having the server having the opposing servers only have slots for as many as the smallest server, but coming back again from the mega server idea wvw as it is now might just need to be scraped for a new system as I don’t even feel like I have a identity when I’m in lion’s arch or so anymore. Also I feel a need to add a disclaimer to stop the anger if such a thing is possible. I came up with a few idea’s examples explaining situations to get the idea ball rolling hopefully others can keep it going to Provide Area net with some idea’s they can use that will help us all to stop face desking our heads against a hopeless wall of red death for a week. (Also omitted other idea’s as I feel this has already gotten a bit wordy for something that might or might be taken serious and not end up buried among all the other posts)

Holy kitten paragraphs please

The problem with nightcapping is the difference in points that it can make as well as making the outnumbered side rather demoralised due to not having mechanics to fight back with. The problem though, is when it’s not through outnumbering, but outfighting. If you make a comeback mechanic too strong, it might end up having the opposite effect whereby a strong guild might not want to log on because they don’t make an impact against a larger server that they kill with smaller numbers, due to a comeback mechanic.

Any anti-nightcapping mechanic needs to also take into account for natural glicko differences and still allow the stronger server to gain glicko to avoid staying in a lower tier.

It’s really not that simple.

^^; It was a rant of idea’s I was putting together. but for the co op idea there hm there should be a kinda counter I guess to say they kept 500 + PPT for hours on end, enable coop mode for the other 2 servers IE map chat say chat full thing and maybe timer for after as well so it not going on and off back and forth from say like a camp being flipped or so each second do 500+ on 495 off 500 + on ect. that 500 number is arbitrary could be 600 or so. But keep the idea’s flowing still! A Net need all the idea’s don’t matter how insane they are! lol Also thanks Reverence for commenting! that was even something to think about! as my idea’s was on the side of getting beat down not the other side I have mentioned so far.

I think one of the problem is night time players are people too.

Some of them are either in other time zone or they work night shift. It is quite unfair if they are unable to take camp or keep just because of the time they can play.

but yea Laokoko I have been on a server when we had the man power and was running over everything as well and ran out of things to cap. so at some point I know you can’t blame the other server just because they have alot of people they need something to do still.

So at that point if the winning server is even having fun and not trolling. wvw is broke for the winning because there board nothing else to take and the people standing in the spawn scared to leave it in the other 2 servers.

It sucks balls for the losing server in a matchup, but honestly, one of the things ANet can do is to increase the frequency of Siegerazer events as well as increase the power of friendly NPCs on a map with the outmanned buff outside of prime time hours. That will help a lot.

These are some of my favorite parts of Michaelangeo’s post https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Score-Catch-up-Mechanic-Win-Up-Los-Dwn#post5472388
…………………………………………………………………………..

Revenge
This will be a buff that will appear like the “Outnumbered” buff when the favourable conditions are present. In general it works like this: Gain points based on a percentage of the difference between the score of the server who’s ahead of you and your world’s score for capturing and holding objectives in their territory (referring to total current score, not PPT). For example, if Server A is at 100,000 points and Server B is at 75,000 points, the percentage of points gained from Revenge comes from the 25,000-point difference between the two servers.
When are you eligible to gain the Revenge buff?
1st Place: Cannot earn points from Revenge (ineligable)
2nd Place: Can earn points from capturing objectives in the first place server’s territory
3rd Place: Can earn points from capturing objectives in the first and second place server’s territories
What are the conditions to gaining the Revenge buff if you are eligible?
You must hold your side of the map before you can gain and utilize Revenge to your advantage (excluding camps).
………………………………………………………………………………….

Events like this that only triggers on runaway conditions and still requires competition to work is probably the best way to do it.

I especially like that you need to hold your own stuff before taking other stuff. A progressive game mode like that would work well just in general.

displayname.8315:

I especially like that you need to hold your own stuff before taking other stuff. A progressive game mode like that would work well just in general.

Good luck with that when the dominant server has the manpower to simply roll your BL. If you can’t even fill a map during prime time or if there’s no one to fight then you should consider moving to another server a few tiers up.

To me, the nightcapping or off-hours issues can be broken down to several components.

1. Nightcappers have it just too effortless but collect same rewards, and often better on per-time basis, then people that fight and put a lot of effort to either be on offense or defense during timeperiods when there are fights. And by fights, I mean eitehr direct group vs group combat, or even be playing strategically against a back capping team.

2. Once objective or objectives are capped, the nightcappers continue to reap the rewards for their lack of effort because the objectives stay in their control without their prescence. No effort required to maintain.

3. Nightcappers completely break down objective focused prime time combat. When server basically logs on to find all of its structures taken over and fully upgraded each and every day for prolonged periods of time, it gets demoralized as a whole and causes too many people to stop playing either WVW or the game entirely.

Solutions would need to encompass:

1. Equal rewards based on per effort required to take objective basis.

2. System which requires some sort of active defenses same as it does during regular playtimes (multiple scouts, defenders, sieging up, etc.), in order to maintain the points income.

3. If the 2 groups are so incompatible that one of them has to be basically let go in order to preserve the health of the game mode as a whole, I would rather see the nightcappers quit over active players who actually play instead of doing just 1-2 rounds of k-train and call it a day. Yes there will be a short term loss, but it will also be a long term gain as more people will find the game more enjoyable, hence be in it.

laokoko.7403:

I think one of the problem is night time players are people too.

Some of them are either in other time zone or they work night shift. It is quite unfair if they are unable to take camp or keep just because of the time they can play.

It is also quite unfair that they can do so with little or often zero effort and yield same rewards as those that have to coordinate and work very hard for the same, and it is also even more unfair that once taken these objectives continue to yield rewards in form of ticking PPT and providing supplies for upgrades etc. long after those players have left the map to go farm silverwastes or do teq or run fractals or whatever else, thus continually bloating the lack of effort reward system.

The only way they are going to fix things is by creating a variable score system based on population.

What that means is is a system that looks at global WvW population, and scales score gains accordingly. This means if one server has 4 full maps queued with 200 pop and the other servers have say only 100 population and 75 population then the score gains are scaled down. This means there would still be gains for that server, but the impact of those gains wouldn’t be equal to all 3 servers full map queued at 200/200/200 (a full raging war). What this does is make “night” (or really any time of the day) capping have a lesser impact on end score compared to “prime time” (whenever that actually is).

There’s really two ways to do that. The first is to just make it a flat reduction based on total WvW population (IE: 200+100+75 = 62.5% of 600% so PPT’s are reduced to 62.5%). The more complex, and probably better, solution is put it on a curve where the highest WvW population replaces that 200 cap. So for example if there’s 100, 75, 40 for servers it would replace the 200 pop cap with 100 effectively giving you a new WvW max pop of 300 for calculations or 71.6% using the example numbers.

This is pretty much the only non-exploitable way to address the “night capping” issue.

Scalyon.7028:

Good luck with that when the dominant server has the manpower to simply roll your BL. If you can’t even fill a map during prime time or if there’s no one to fight then you should consider moving to another server a few tiers up.

That’s the old school way of thinking. We’re talking about those “few tiers up” and how populations are becoming more even and competitive. Please don’t lobby for more stacking.

Tongku.5326:

laokoko.7403:

I think one of the problem is night time players are people too.

Some of them are either in other time zone or they work night shift. It is quite unfair if they are unable to take camp or keep just because of the time they can play.

It is also quite unfair that they can do so with little or often zero effort and yield same rewards as those that have to coordinate and work very hard for the same, and it is also even more unfair that once taken these objectives continue to yield rewards in form of ticking PPT and providing supplies for upgrades etc. long after those players have left the map to go farm silverwastes or do teq or run fractals or whatever else, thus continually bloating the lack of effort reward system.

That is not unfair.

If you do not like your opponent capping stuff while they have more people on the map at night, then get off your duff, log in, and play at night.

They do not make it easy for themselves, you do. You and your server mates are failing to do your work in stopping them. Yet you want to cry fowl as if they are doing something wrong to have an advantage. The fault is yours, not your opponents.

dancingmonkey.4902:

If you do not like your opponent capping stuff while they have more people on the map at night, then get off your duff, log in, and play at night.

That’s stupid. Game companies do have an interest in having a continuous stream of players logging in, but they also don’t want to kill their customers nor make the game pointless for the time players do have to spend playing it.

As was said in John Coperning’s statement: “we don’t want to see players taking days off work or staying up all night expending a huge effort during a time when these issues (night-capping) stand out the most”

Ahh still alot of good idea’s I hope a net seen this by now even if they don’t reply and also hope they see something they can use but Scalyon your post defeats the purpose of this idea your basically going the if you can’t beat them join them rought T1 servers have there map’s full 24/7 with ques so they don’t have man power issues just blob is or can’t get to were it needs to be to defend a objective fast enough or a distractions fails or such is more there problem. with that way of solving issues lets just abandon all the lower teir servers so were all on full maps is the solution to your idea witch is bad as why have the other servers then? Also bouncing from server to server does not instill a sense of loyalty for your server (although the mega server system partial kills that for me now) your like a mercenary at that point. But then again I’m not saying it’s bad as I’m not trying to dismiss any idea don’t matter how crazy! Just toss stuff at the wall guys see what arena net likes! But yea the Business as usual model is only working now in the upper tier servers witch equal man power from the map’s being full and all.

Chaba.5410:

dancingmonkey.4902:

If you do not like your opponent capping stuff while they have more people on the map at night, then get off your duff, log in, and play at night.

That’s stupid. Game companies do have an interest in having a continuous stream of players logging in, but they also don’t want to kill their customers nor make the game pointless for the time players do have to spend playing it.

No, it isn’t really stupid. It is just as reasonable a comment from folks who work nights, or have families and play at later then prime time hours, as it is for a primarily prime time player to irrationally demand that off peak hour players get less value out of every keep they take.

Chaba.5410:

As was said in John Coperning’s statement: “we don’t want to see players taking days off work or staying up all night expending a huge effort during a time when these issues (night-capping) stand out the most”

Sure no one wants anyone to do that. You appear to be reading more into it, then what was stated though. This statement does not mean prime timers have more value, nor does it mean they will even make any changes relative to it.

It says a lot that you deem anyone’s opinion, as “stupid” for having an opinion opposite of yours. It suggest you do not desire to resolve issues, as much as you want you opinion (which are highly subjective) to be seen as objective fact. Not a very reasonable approach if you ask me.

but yea dancingmonkey night capping is not a bad thing and I’m saying that because as you said they the night capping group needs stuff to do also so there not bad issue is there is in most cases literately no one but guards and literately the door from stopping them so in a situation like that there only so few things a net can do, working with nothing that is automated defenses that only work when certain criteria are meet like say no one on your server is on the map at all or ect might end up having to add pve defense elements to give the night capping group some resistance other then the 2 guards and the door or if there using a cata no resistance but the guild lords hp…lol. with that said I have been in situations there was no one at all on my server on wvw at all on all 4 maps..so yea…getting that bad is a thing…(and no one in edge of the mist as well)

I see what your saying Rei. I am usually on the lesser manned aspect of later hours play. My main point, is that good, bad, or indifferent, I am simply against taking a week long battle, and making care changes, that favor various play schedules. Those are issues inherent to a 24 hr battle game mode. A change that pits players against each other, who are playing, during off peak hours, is the only solution that doesn’t put some sort of penalty or minimize what they get done in their play time.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Chaba.5410:

dancingmonkey.4902:

If you do not like your opponent capping stuff while they have more people on the map at night, then get off your duff, log in, and play at night.

That’s stupid. Game companies do have an interest in having a continuous stream of players logging in, but they also don’t want to kill their customers nor make the game pointless for the time players do have to spend playing it.

No, it isn’t really stupid. It is just as reasonable a comment from folks who work nights, or have families and play at later then prime time hours, as it is for a primarily prime time player to irrationally demand that off peak hour players get less value out of every keep they take.

Chaba.5410:

As was said in John Coperning’s statement: “we don’t want to see players taking days off work or staying up all night expending a huge effort during a time when these issues (night-capping) stand out the most”

Sure no one wants anyone to do that. You appear to be reading more into it, then what was stated though. This statement does not mean prime timers have more value, nor does it mean they will even make any changes relative to it.

It says a lot that you deem anyone’s opinion, as “stupid” for having an opinion opposite of yours. It suggest you do not desire to resolve issues, as much as you want you opinion (which are highly subjective) to be seen as objective fact. Not a very reasonable approach if you ask me.

I called your opinion stupid not because it was opposite of mine, but because it is an unhealthy non-solution. There are players who do stay up or adjust their schedules like that to counter night-capping because they’re heavily invested in their server like that. You are encouraging that unhealthy behavior with your opinion. It deserves to be called stupid and even reckless for exactly that reason.

Moreover, the idea that off peak hour players would somehow get less value out of their keep caps than peak players is wrong. Off peak playtime hours are OVERVALUED right now. It’s the peak players who get less value score-wise out of every keep they take. That needs to be equalized.

Pointing out that one of the things that people discussed a lot in the old DCI threads was that PPT is a huge part of why night capping is a problem. Kill PPT, and you kill Night capping as a problem.

One suggestion I really liked (by munkiman iirc) was to move away from PPT and move into a PPC/PPD (Point Per Capture/Defense) system.

The main point for this discussion was that if you captured the entire map, you got all the points there was to get from it, it didn’t sit an passively tick points for the rest of the night. And this didn’t reward day/night/morning/random time different than another.

It also had the added bonus that it would actually let this idea that so many people likes that upgraded structures are worth more, to actually work (without just giving runaway bonus points to the winner).

Chaba.5410:

I called your opinion stupid not because it was opposite of mine, but because it is an unhealthy non-solution. There are players who do stay up or adjust their schedules like that to counter night-capping because they’re heavily invested in their server like that. You are encouraging that unhealthy behavior with your opinion. It deserves to be called stupid and even reckless for exactly that reason.

It is not only healthy, it is reasonable. This is a week to week, 24/7, 365 game mode. It is not a 4 to 6 hour window that counts.

You appear to have misguided intentions if you ask me. Nothing I suggested is either stupid or reckless. That may describe the actions of those who spend stupid or reckless amounts of time in game. Those who do that, need to accept that responsibility for themselves. You appear to prefer accusations over facts. I am not encouraging unhealthy behavior. I am suggesting if your not on, you have no right to cry about the effort those who are on, put into it.

Chaba.5410:

Moreover, the idea that off peak hour players would somehow get less value out of their keep caps than peak players is wrong. Off peak playtime hours are OVERVALUED right now. It’s the peak players who get less value score-wise out of every keep they take. That needs to be equalized.

Well, none of that is factually true, but you state it with a nice level of aver. Your confusing your subjective opinion, with that of objective fact.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Well, none of that is factually true, but you state it with a nice level of aver. Your confusing your subjective opinion, with that of objective fact.

So you are saying that 60 people fighting 120 people (all 3 servers duke it out, just for the fun of it) in an enemy garrison for 3 hours of constant battle only to finally cap it, is completely equal to 3 people taking 3 Omega golems and capping it in 10 minutes with absolutely no one defending?

I honestly dont think so. Offtime PPT is most definetly overvalued. Simplest idea is to just devalue it:

Check Every Hour
If WvW_Population <= 33% set WvW_Scoring to 50% and WvW_Lighting to “WvW_Nighttime”
If WvW_Population > 33% set WvW_Scoring to 100% and WvW_Lighting to “WvW_Daytime”

Simple solution – WvW has its own nighttime, which is based on population. But I doubt we will ever see any fix for this from Anet.

Well the idea for this post is just to come up with idea’s and brainstorming as far as im concerned there is no bad idea’s just need more idea’s to try but yea the ability to login at any time during the day and know your going to get a awesome fight. Loosing to the other team because they out maneuvered you is a good thing losing because 5 < 100 is just face desk frustration. It’s all about the fight! with that said try not to put others down guys or take things personally you pitch a idea other people point out what is wrong or why it don’t work is a good thing then re adapt that idea with what is wrong and make it right. So All of you that took the time to read this come up with a idea! I salute you Sir and or Mam! Ask friends or other in guild wars 2 for options and tell them to come back here even. (I noticed there is 2 other posts that was near the top as I posted this that was kinda along the same lines as my idea so give them a look also im all about sharing the credit of idea’s and spreading the word of awesome balance) Also Sailor Scout Powwwaahh! Because Sailor Moon <3

Dawdler.8521:

dancingmonkey.4902:

Well, none of that is factually true, but you state it with a nice level of aver. Your confusing your subjective opinion, with that of objective fact.

So you are saying that 60 people fighting 120 people (all 3 servers duke it out, just for the fun of it) in an enemy garrison for 3 hours of constant battle only to finally cap it, is completely equal to 3 people taking 3 Omega golems and capping it in 10 minutes with absolutely no one defending?

He didn’t say that since he presented no counter-argument to prove what I wrote was opinion. That’s exactly what fact it is though. Three players taking an entire borderland with an omega and holding it for three hours because there is no one to defend or re-cap is worth more in the scoring system than 60 players spending three hours to flip a single waypointed keep that gets retaken within 10 minutes. Notice we don’t even have to specify timezones here? Three people getting more points for their server than sixty simply because of large disparities in population between the three servers in the match at the time they play is a fact.

Here’s subjective opinion: There’s nothing skilled about that, there’s nothing fun about that, and there’s nothing impressive about that.

I like the idea of a mechanic instead of PPT devalue and such.

The seigerazer events work to a point but are pretty limited and seigerazer himself could be programmed better. Instead of 1 dolyak he could spawn a parade and march around the map like a real commander.

displayname hehe that be a funny idea although some people complain he is already op but anything that involved him taking more then the starter tower would just be a scripted event as he can’t just go willi nilly I can picture him in the other players spawn going at it..haha..good times..but best I can come up with he just takes a tour of all that is yours (your side of the map) kinda like that blue bear champion thing in edge of the mist

The scoring system needs change, that much is pretty clear.

Things that need to be devalued:
-Capping when the other server(s) have very few to no players
-Double teaming a server that is not way ahead in points
-Monoblobbing and cycling downgrades over all the maps while not defending any captured objectives

I would propose a multiplier to the points value of each objective (in brackets), based on your server population vs the number of enemy players, across all (regular) WVW maps.

The value that determines the multiplier bracket should be based on:

Holding an enemy objective:
The ratio of your players to the number of players on the team the objective belongs to

Holding your own objective:
The ratio of your players to the number of players on both enemy teams

This means you need two sets of brackets of multipliers, one for captured enemy objectives, one for your home objectives

The multiplier should be applied to a portion of the objective’s point value (to prevent abuse situations).

For example:

Holding a tower belonging to an enemy server that outnumbers you 3:1 might give you a 3x multiplier to a percentage (let’s say 50%) of its point value.
(obviously these are arbitrary numbers, but once such a system exists the brackets and bonus point % are easily adjustable)

So now the tower is worth: 5 + (5*3) = 20 points instead of 10.
If the larger server takes a tower off the smaller one, they might get: 5 + (5*0.2) = 6 points instead of 10.

The astute reader will note that this means defending objectives becomes much more important in this scenario, which is OK.

I would probably also recommend building in a “decay” of the multiplier each tick, so as not to inadvertently create fringe scenarios where ninja capping and logging off becomes a massive points gain mechanic.

Under such a system, running around with 50 people at 5am while there are no enemies will still net you points of course, but if everything is just speedily recapped you’ll likely only get the objective to tick once or twice at almost half value, at the same time the poor guys you are running over with your blob that are recapping everything are getting mondo points per tick.

Obviously the multiplier values need to be carefully tuned so you don’t create scenarios encouraging people not to play, but still punish nightcapping and blobbing.

Likewise, strike teams of ninja cappers become a very valuable asset in this scenario. If Server A is blobbing the kitten out of EB, and Server B sends a few 5-10 man teams to the borders to cap all their small objectives, Server A will have a terrible tick despite their numerical superiority in one place.

I personally find that desirable as threeway blobfights with 2-3s skill lag demonstrate pretty clearly that the game can’t handle mega blobs.

The nicest thing here would be that the objectives that are worth the most when captured from an enemy are those belonging to the server with the most people online, which may help a little with double teaming a server that is already down in points but has a “reputation” and the like.

This is just some stuff off the top of my head at the office, I may be overlooking some terrible flaws.

Chaba.5410:

dancingmonkey.4902:

Chaba.5410:

dancingmonkey.4902:

If you do not like your opponent capping stuff while they have more people on the map at night, then get off your duff, log in, and play at night.

That’s stupid. Game companies do have an interest in having a continuous stream of players logging in, but they also don’t want to kill their customers nor make the game pointless for the time players do have to spend playing it.

No, it isn’t really stupid. It is just as reasonable a comment from folks who work nights, or have families and play at later then prime time hours, as it is for a primarily prime time player to irrationally demand that off peak hour players get less value out of every keep they take.

Chaba.5410:

As was said in John Coperning’s statement: “we don’t want to see players taking days off work or staying up all night expending a huge effort during a time when these issues (night-capping) stand out the most”

Sure no one wants anyone to do that. You appear to be reading more into it, then what was stated though. This statement does not mean prime timers have more value, nor does it mean they will even make any changes relative to it.

It says a lot that you deem anyone’s opinion, as “stupid” for having an opinion opposite of yours. It suggest you do not desire to resolve issues, as much as you want you opinion (which are highly subjective) to be seen as objective fact. Not a very reasonable approach if you ask me.

I called your opinion stupid not because it was opposite of mine, but because it is an unhealthy non-solution. There are players who do stay up or adjust their schedules like that to counter night-capping because they’re heavily invested in their server like that. You are encouraging that unhealthy behavior with your opinion. It deserves to be called stupid and even reckless for exactly that reason.

Moreover, the idea that off peak hour players would somehow get less value out of their keep caps than peak players is wrong. Off peak playtime hours are OVERVALUED right now. It’s the peak players who get less value score-wise out of every keep they take. That needs to be equalized.

I happen to agree with Chaba here. On NA servers the vast majority of players are undervalued as a small 20ish zerg during SEA could undo and even overwhelm the efforts of a huge number of players during that tier’s prime time. There are a few tiers where the SEA, sometimes OCX and to a far lesser extent EU simply are too far out of balance to make the other TZs nearly as meaningful.

Buffing the NPCs and strengthening the structures could go a ways towards evening the odds somewhat. Making siege do more damage could as well.

But on some of these overstacked night time servers they face almost no one during their primetime. If there are no defenders to match up against all stronger NPCs and walls would do is slow them down a bit.

You don’t want to see the score system get complicated to where you have to look it up online to understand it.

Mechanics like the seigerazer event are self explanatory. For the revenge mechanic being discussed you could do something like your north diamond turns golds when you lock in all your objectives.

Their event system is decent (multiple event progression in PVE) and could be used well for a comeback mechanic.

Kaiser.9873:

Buffing the NPCs and strengthening the structures could go a ways towards evening the odds somewhat. Making siege do more damage could as well.

But on some of these overstacked night time servers they face almost no one during their primetime. If there are no defenders to match up against all stronger NPCs and walls would do is slow them down a bit.

Wait, so your suggestions is to force players to play PvE in WvW, simply because they do not have the same schedule as you? Why are so many in favor of forcing PvE or artificial factors on players who do not play the same schedule as you? Your really bad ideas will be nails in a coffin. It seems to me, that reasonable people would prefer to change fundamental aspects that creates an environment in which the players who are actually on, are funneled to a situation in which they play each other. Instead of offering these bad ideas of forcing players with different schedules then you, to play PvE mobs.

You accuse servers of being “over stacked night time servers” and I do not buy that. Accusing some one who plays with others with similar schedules, as “over stacking” is unreasonable. It is not their fault that other servers are “underpopulated” during those hours. It is completely irrational to call a server as “over stacked” when they have 20 players on a map, simply because another server they are competing against for the week has 0. It baffles me why you guys desire to blame those who are on, for being on, even when there is a minimal amount of players. It is a shame that you guys feel that is a reasoning to push for bad ideas and more PvE mobs. These ideas will do nothing other then force off peak hours players out of the game.

Any idea that punishes players for playing is a bad one, and harms the game for peak hours as well.

Perhaps. The current status, however, if you are competitive is well interesting.

Either you get on a server that has overnight coverage.

Or you stop playing wvw and do something else for competitive gaming because there is a tendency for overnight timezones to become extremely lopsided due to the lack of population. Well, overnight is an odd term since these timezones are really during the day for me. It should be called overday.

The second option is the simplest for a player to implement. Honestly, the only reason I am still here is because running around with the guild is fun. The competitive factor in wvw has been a non factor for over a year now, maybe longer.

Often times when a server is outnumbered as far as zerg numbers, at least in lower tiers, hitting the other server in its more dead periods are the only chance they stand of having any reasonable progress inside of the week. Can’t win a 20 v 40? Wait an hour and win a 15 v15. The more time usage/strategies are devalued, it seems to me that server population will be even more valued, perhaps even undefeatable (except in cases where the large zergs suck and can be defeated by lesser numbers. obviously that happens). I’m wondering if any of you thinkers (I’m serious, you guys are putting out alot of thoughts) have ideas that can solve both problems? Match ups can become unwinnable based on night capping, but server population imbalance is far more potent in making them unwinnable I feel.

Zynac the Rouge.3829:

I’m wondering if any of you thinkers (I’m serious, you guys are putting out alot of thoughts) have ideas that can solve both problems? Match ups can become unwinnable based on night capping, but server population imbalance is far more potent in making them unwinnable I feel.

Night-capping was always a symptom of design flaws in the PPT scoring system exposed by server population imbalances. A scoring system like PPK + Points per Capture would address some of those flaws. And it really needs to be addressed because the new WvW mechanic with automatically upgrading towers will exacerbate that PPT issue when there’s no opponent around to reset upgrades (as opposed to players having a choice in whether to buy upgrades or not.)

Zynac the Rouge.3829:

I’m wondering if any of you thinkers (I’m serious, you guys are putting out alot of thoughts) have ideas that can solve both problems? Match ups can become unwinnable based on night capping, but server population imbalance is far more potent in making them unwinnable I feel.

Nah server population balance is already less of a problem with the new fix they put in place. In high Tier’s you probably wouldn’t even see comebacks used much.

Events like siegerazer just felt like a “quick fix”. Developing stuff like stronghold just a larger scale would at least let people still play if they want to.

From 1am till 7am PPT ticks once per hour. Problem solved.
People can still night cap, but the damage can be easely overcom during the daytime.

The problem is that server population balance isn’t the same as population balance across all time zones, especially since the population algorithm uses an average over time.

Still, balancing server population is the first small step to preventing the snowball affect of night capping ( score, supply, upgrades)

DaVinci.8073:

From 1am till 7am PPT ticks once per hour. Problem solved.
People can still night cap, but the damage can be easely overcom during the daytime.

1 AM to 7 AM Hawaii–Aleutian Time?

It is irrational to call it night capping if the sun hasn’t set yet.

If you want an idea of the direction Anet is likely to go with fixing this issue, look at this thread:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Scoring-Discussion/first

Likely it will involve some kind of time-sliced scoring, where PPT (but not the map/objectives itself) would reset every X hours, and servers are allocated a certain number of points for placing in 1st, 2nd, 3rd in PPT in each time segment.

For example, every 3 hours they could tally up total PPT accumulated by each server during that time period, and assign the server in first place 5 points, second 3 points, third 2 points (obviously the numbers could be different) toward the total weeklong match score. Then PPT would reset for the next 3 hour cycle, but the maps and all currently owned objectives and upgrades would stay the same.

A result of this is that “nighttime” players still matter a lot, but because they can’t drastically run up the weekly score their time segments are not more valuable points-wise than “primetime” players’ time segments.

This is better than, say, a system that weights PPT based on the amount of population online, because it is less vulnerable to exploitation and doesn’t disincentivise playing (servers that know they’ll be outnumbered could just log off to limit their opponent’s PPT).

coglin.1867:

DaVinci.8073:

From 1am till 7am PPT ticks once per hour. Problem solved.
People can still night cap, but the damage can be easely overcom during the daytime.

1 AM to 7 AM Hawaii–Aleutian Time?

It is irrational to call it night capping if the sun hasn’t set yet.

It would be more constructive to the discussion to stop getting hung up on terminology that’s short-hand for a scoring system flaw when there’s no real alternative name for the flaw. That’s why it continues to be called “night-capping” even though no serious participant in the discussion would disagree that it isn’t actually the middle of the night for those players.

BrickFurious.7169:

If you want an idea of the direction Anet is likely to go with fixing this issue, look at this thread:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Scoring-Discussion/first

Likely it will involve some kind of time-sliced scoring, where PPT (but not the map/objectives itself) would reset every X hours, and servers are allocated a certain number of points for placing in 1st, 2nd, 3rd in PPT in each time segment.

For example, every 3 hours they could tally up total PPT accumulated by each server during that time period, and assign the server in first place 5 points, second 3 points, third 2 points (obviously the numbers could be different) toward the total weeklong match score. Then PPT would reset for the next 3 hour cycle, but the maps and all currently owned objectives and upgrades would stay the same.

A result of this is that “nighttime” players still matter a lot, but because they can’t drastically run up the weekly score their time segments are not more valuable points-wise than “primetime” players’ time segments.

This is better than, say, a system that weights PPT based on the amount of population online, because it is less vulnerable to exploitation and doesn’t disincentivise playing (servers that know they’ll be outnumbered could just log off to limit their opponent’s PPT).

Players gonna get what we asked for XD

Inb4 people complain about it.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Scoring-Discussion/page/5#post4477498

The problem with night capping is that the night capper’s time is more valuable to the server’s outcome than the day or primetime capper’s time. The right solution to this will be complex and probably involve tracking wvw population.

None of these systems take into account upgrades to structures which amplify the value of night capping. Nightcapping is a problem not only because of PPT but because of structure upgrades which go unchallenged. This leaves the newly arriving primetime crew not only seeing things flipped but also fully upgraded.

I propose an event that can be tied to lore of choice cause it’s the mists (I choose Balthazar’s Apocalypse as a name for it). The event occurs at certain times:
(in EDT (GMT -5))
7pm -start of NA prime
2am -start of oceanic prime
7am -start of asia prime
11am -start of east europe prime
2pm -start of west europe prime (roughly)

Balthazar’s apocalypse event:
Fully Upgraded structures in “enemy” territory take damage reducing gates and walls to Tier 1 health. Player siege inside the enemy structures other than permanent siege is destroyed. Walls inside the structure cannot be repaired past the Tier 1 health level for 90 minutes after the apocalypse starts. Supply in the structure is reduced to Tier 1 level and cannot pass that level for 90 minutes.

Structures in enemy territory are structures on a server’s borderland and on the server’s third of EBG which belong to another server. Player siege in enemy territory is destroyed regardless of the upgrades to the building.

Chaba.5410:

coglin.1867:

DaVinci.8073:

From 1am till 7am PPT ticks once per hour. Problem solved.
People can still night cap, but the damage can be easely overcom during the daytime.

1 AM to 7 AM Hawaii–Aleutian Time?

It is irrational to call it night capping if the sun hasn’t set yet.

It would be more constructive to the discussion to stop getting hung up on terminology that’s short-hand for a scoring system flaw when there’s no real alternative name for the flaw. That’s why it continues to be called “night-capping” even though no serious participant in the discussion would disagree that it isn’t actually the middle of the night for those players.

What terminology? What short hand?

It would likely be more constructive if you refrained from implying you get to decide who are or are not serious participants in the discussion. I do not know who “those players” are, that you are referring to. I do know the time frame of 1 AM to 7 AM is very relative. Living in Hawaii, the hours after I get off work until I need to go to bed are very very different then those of a player on the east coast, who work the same schedule that I do as far as NA is concerned.

coglin.1867:

Living in Hawaii, the hours after I get off work until I need to go to bed are very very different then those of a player on the east coast, who work the same schedule that I do as far as NA is concerned.

So what? What does that have to do with resolving the flaw in the scoring system? If we call it something else, does that resolve the flaw?

You asked “so what?”, well I do not understand that question as an answer to my questions. You made some declarations and used the term “night capping”. I asked you what is “night capping”? What “terminology” you were referring to? What “short hand” were you referring to?

For that matter, what was the point of that link you posted from almost a full year ago?

Well there is not flaw with the scoring system. You are confusing your subjective opinion with that of objective fact. The scoring works fine. The issue is a population issue.

All they need to do is break up the scoring into zones, that way no zone can go overboard and run away with the total score, you will no longer have to worry about servers that have a too much of ocx or sea or eu that stack 10k in score every day run away with the matchup.

Zone 1 – 9 pm est(when reset starts) to 3 am est.
Zone 2 – 3 am – 9 am est.
Zone 3 – 9 am – 3pm est.
Zone 4 – 3pm – 9pm est.

You run the same PPT scoring system and add PPK as well, reset the points at the end of the zone time.
You won’t have to run any type of weakening effect (penalties), on populations or scores or gameplay.
The server that wins a zone gets 1 overall point.
At the end of the week the server with the most overall points wins.
The actual overall score will be tighter and easier to catch throughout the week.

And for those who don’t know much about the time zones, here’s a list of what’s covered in the Zones.

OCX Prime time(8pm) for New Zealand is around 4am est.
OCX Prime time(8pm) for East Australia is around 6am est.
SEA Prime time(8pm) for places like West Australia to like Hong Kong areas is around 8am est.
SEA to Russia will run to about 1pm est.
EU takes over from 1pm est.
EU Prime time(8pm) for England is around 3pm est, as an example.
Early NA is basically 6-8pm est.
East NA Prime is 8-11am est.
PST NA Prime is 12-3am est.

P.S This scoring system basically amounts to running a sports league like soccer or hockey, where you play games, doesn’t matter up what the score ends being for the game you still only get 2 or 3 points for winning. Same with the zones you will only get 1 point for winning.

It can be expanded to 3, 2, 1 overall points awarded system as well, but would result in more points given out and bigger margin in score as the week progresses.

coglin.1867:

The scoring works fine.

Then prove it.

coglin.1867:

Kaiser.9873:

Buffing the NPCs and strengthening the structures could go a ways towards evening the odds somewhat. Making siege do more damage could as well.

But on some of these overstacked night time servers they face almost no one during their primetime. If there are no defenders to match up against all stronger NPCs and walls would do is slow them down a bit.

Wait, so your suggestions is to force players to play PvE in WvW, simply because they do not have the same schedule as you? Why are so many in favor of forcing PvE or artificial factors on players who do not play the same schedule as you? Your really bad ideas will be nails in a coffin. It seems to me, that reasonable people would prefer to change fundamental aspects that creates an environment in which the players who are actually on, are funneled to a situation in which they play each other. Instead of offering these bad ideas of forcing players with different schedules then you, to play PvE mobs.

You accuse servers of being “over stacked night time servers” and I do not buy that. Accusing some one who plays with others with similar schedules, as “over stacking” is unreasonable. It is not their fault that other servers are “underpopulated” during those hours. It is completely irrational to call a server as “over stacked” when they have 20 players on a map, simply because another server they are competing against for the week has 0. It baffles me why you guys desire to blame those who are on, for being on, even when there is a minimal amount of players. It is a shame that you guys feel that is a reasoning to push for bad ideas and more PvE mobs. These ideas will do nothing other then force off peak hours players out of the game.

Any idea that punishes players for playing is a bad one, and harms the game for peak hours as well.

Whoa whoa whoa slow that roll there and direct that vitriol elsewhere. So nonstop PvD is fun? There are many servers where, yeah in all honesty, that’s all the offhours forces do is PvE in the BLs. No one told anyone to overstack a certain server. Oh wait, yeah they did when players from certain non-NA timezones decided to make certain servers the “unofficial” whatever part of the world they are from. Had there been enough players from these other timezones to spread even faintly evenly there would be no complaints about “overstacked offhours servers”. It didn’t help any that just before free transfers ended many of the offhours guilds that were spread out more during the game’s early stages decided to pack into fewer servers. For example CD losing large numbers of SEA players just before transfers ended to T1.

The bottom line is that even low tier NA servers have a certain level of NA activity that is somewhat balanced by tier. What low tier, and many high tier, servers lack is offhours coverage. It doesn’t help that in many cases these offhours players are packed, or packed themselves into a few servers. It also gives a very imbalanced, unattractive gameplay for everyone as the offhour powerhouse servers can, and often do, stick in tiers where during NA they get PvDed and they in turn PvD during offhours.

So what you tend to get is some balance during NA time on NA servers, and even if one NA server is stronger than the other two during NA time, the NA players efforts are worth far less per capita than the players in offhours timezones as they often fight doors more than other players.

ie JQ-SEA, SoS-OCX, DB-SEA, etc, etc.

They might as well split each server into four groups, NA, OCX, SEA and EU.
Each match is one week consisting of seven 6-hour time slices so there’s four resets on Friday and each group has their own glicko and possibly even tier.

At the end of the week you can have a total score based upon how each of the server’s four groups performed.

At least this way you won’t have night capping because you’ll be partitioned off relative to similar populations in the same time zone.

Or ArenaNet could use my Revenge catchup mechanic idea, which is not as complicated as what everyone here is suggesting and could be something more feasible given that it not only keeps scores closer together but it also promotes playing WvW in a desirable fashion to get those points (attacking the leading server and defending). Check it out, it got propped up by someone a few days ago and is getting a lot of positive comments (its in my sig).

well coglin it not a matter of forcing players into pve but your literately trying to divide a problem by 0 they have players the other servers don’t so there is no other option but PVE as the system is now unless you allow for switching sides bringing in other servers ect. Granted if wvw was redesigned there be something to do. But when there is no one to fight against it is just PVD I never said that night capping or off hours capping I guess is a better term as some here said sometime it is there day. I night cap myself you just go take things and no one is there. Sometimes I see 1 guy trying to defend vs our smallish group and I feel sorry for him because I feel his pain sometime I run up to them (while jumping hoping they know I don’t wana attack them) and we have some jumping bouncing fun! So yea even the fact I have to feel sorry for the people I’M fighting makes me sad as I know there not having any fun Also feel it should be a universal language that jumping towards your enemy means you don’t want to attack them lol.