Guild Wars 2

This will be an unpopular suggestion, but in their current state Water Fields are overpowered. They are currently the single fastest way to heal a zerg in short order and are way stronger than the other fields by far. They also completely change the face of how WvW combat is done with their presence.

It is common place for an organized group to run into a battle, kill a good amount, retreat, place a water field, and then everyone uses their blast finishers and the entire zerg is healed to full. Then re-engage. Likewise a well placed water field mid battle can completely heal all the melee inside when called out in advance with organization.

I LOVE this on a tactical side, and it does make my staff elementalist feel even more important. But from a balance side of things this is definitely not balanced and does not share the same design philosophy on the power of the rest of the healing in the game.

Suggestion: Cut the direct heal from the water field in half and apply the remainder as regeneration. This will allow it to heal the same amount overall, yet have more counter play and reduce it’s burst healing potential.

You accurately describe a way to effectively use water fields, but you do not show how it is unbalanced.

Why and how do you feel it is unbalanced?

Yes, this will be an unpopular suggestion on these forums.

That being said, you seem to represent the zerging part of our community who think that the role personal skill and organization plays in WvW should be diminished, and as such you might get Arena Net to actually nerf water fields, since in effect you represent the largest part of WvW players.

This is quite the convincing troll thread.

Just get three people together and build a superior arrowcart, instant counter lol.

2,5k ticks + poison, waterfield go home :P

You can’t be serious

Suggestion: Kill them while they’re attempting to heal.

No. The last thing we need is to ENCOURAGE more disorganized server lagging mega blobs.

Also btw, there are plenty of ways to counter water fields.

We need to have more reasons to be smaller and organized not nerf them.

Yes by all means lets have more nerfs further reducing all classes to a homogenous blob.

Yep, let’s make this game even more casual…
Troll thread detected – CLOSE asap.

Just remove all heals and armor.

IMO, whenever two enemies engage the game should calculate how many of each side are within a 100 yard radius. The side with less players should immediately be put into defeated state giving the side with more players the win (as it should be)

If the number of enemies on each side happen to be the same then all players should be ported back to the nearest waypoint.

Sacrx.6721:

Just remove all heals and armor.

might as well remove weapons and skills too!

all i need is my wall, trusty superior arrow cart, and wxp arrow cart mastery rank!

You wanna cut their heals? Applying poison = heal potency decreased by 33%. It’s not like they heal for much anyway, it’s only 1320 + 0.2 * (Healing power) and only hits 5 people.

Also, regeneration is gained from projectile finishers and whirl finishers.

lol u mad?

well this made my day

Ok I of course knew this was coming so lets deal with this in turns:

Fallacy #1: Water Fields aids the smaller group.

This is false. Water Fields actually aid the larger group more. Water Fields however DO aid the more organized group more. This is part of why smaller organized groups can tear apart zergs 3 times their size. They would still be able to do this, they just wouldn’t be able to spike heal their entire group to full. I say this from experience.

Fallacy #2: Poison will stop them!!

No poison will not stop this because hammer warriors and guardians are present. These are core classes to the organized group and the group is built around them. Both of them will laugh and remove your poison right before using their blast finishers on the water field. Warriors will actually make the poison into a boon. Hammer/sword/horn warriors with soldiers runes, shouts, and the traited horns stack ridiculously well.

Fallacy #3 I hate healing

I love healing actually. I have a couple healing based characters, including my engineer that just got a nice buff with the healing turret. Problem is that the current iteration of water field is completely out of balance with the rest of the healing in the game and is game-breakingly strong when used by an organized group. Again I regularly run as part of an organized group such as this and dropping the water fields is a very important part of my job as staff ele.

Fallacy #4 This will constrict build diversity.

Actually current organized groups are built with water fields in mind. This is why Warriors, Guardians, and Elementalists are the 3 most important classes to have. You only need a few mesmers. Warriors and Guardians provide excellent CC as well as being extremely tanky. Both also come with great support and condition removal. The clutch here is that both are also packing their on call spammable blast finishers. Their damage is nothing to sneeze at either. Elementalists provide AOE damage, CC, and very importantly water fields on call at range.

All classes help, but you essentially cannot get enough of these 3 once you have half a dozen or so warriors and Guardians to comprise your heavy front line.

Gab Superstar.4059:

Yes, this will be an unpopular suggestion on these forums.

That being said, you seem to represent the zerging part of our community who think that the role personal skill and organization plays in WvW should be diminished, and as such you might get Arena Net to actually nerf water fields, since in effect you represent the largest part of WvW players.

Actually I regularly run in these type of organized groups. I know the ins and outs and I also know that this change will not stop us from ripping apart the enemy. Our organization and team work causes that. This Water Field nonesense is just additional icing on top of that which allows us to fully heal and re-engage in a matter of seconds.

We regularly handle groups up to 3 times our size. Beyond that you still have good success if you stay mobile, but their ability to keep coming starts to outstrip your ability to kill them fast enough and 5 man revives or corpse rushing will overpower you.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Suggestion: Kill them while they’re attempting to heal.

This sounds well and good but it takes us less than 10 seconds to retreat slightly, fully heal, then re-engage. The retreat is also covered by control effects such as frozen ground if there is any danger of pursuit (part of my job) and front runners get utterly demolished. Placing the water fields, calling them out, and making sure I alternate with others so as not to get over-laps is also part of my job btw. We are very organized.

Also keep in mind that the entire heavy melee line stay grouped together rolling through combat and water fields are periodically being dropped on them and called out mid combat, causing these heals to be entirely un-preventable.

So this thread basicly means : Strategy?Organization?

HOW DARE THEY !?

NERF!

I do think it’s a bit contradicing when you say an unorganized group can quickly do it, because it actually takes some organization with pugs. I can’t tell you how many times PUGS will place down wrong fields of not stack and we end up losing half of them when we regroup.

Doomdesire.9365:

I do think it’s a bit contradicing when you say an unorganized group can quickly do it, because it actually takes some organization with pugs. I can’t tell you how many times PUGS will place down wrong fields of not stack and we end up losing half of them when we regroup.

I never said this. Please quote the part you believe says this and I will explain because unorganized pugs do not take proper advantage of water fields. They do not stack, they stack in aoes, they contaminate the water fields, they overlap them, etc.

graverr.6473:

So this thread basicly means : Strategy?Organization?

HOW DARE THEY !?

NERF!

Red Herring.

One could say the same about the proper use of arrow carts, but those are blatantly imbalanced once you get more than 2 arrow carts up currently. While an organized group could undoubtedly use arrow carts better than an unorganized group that does not mean the carts themselves are balanced.

Ralathar.7236:

Doomdesire.9365:

I do think it’s a bit contradicing when you say an unorganized group can quickly do it, because it actually takes some organization with pugs. I can’t tell you how many times PUGS will place down wrong fields of not stack and we end up losing half of them when we regroup.

I never said this. Please quote the part you believe says this and I will explain because unorganized pugs do not take proper advantage of water fields. They do not stack, they stack in aoes, they contaminate the water fields, they overlap them, etc.

Woops. Read that as “unorganized”. Go on like I was never here…

Ralathar.7236:

This will be an unpopular suggestion, but in their current state Water Fields are overpowered. They are currently the single fastest way to heal a zerg in short order and are way stronger than the other fields by far. They also completely change the face of how WvW combat is done with their presence.

It is common place for an organized group to run into a battle, kill a good amount, retreat, place a water field, and then everyone uses their blast finishers and the entire zerg is healed to full. Then re-engage. Likewise a well placed water field mid battle can completely heal all the melee inside when called out in advance with organization.

I LOVE this on a tactical side, and it does make my staff elementalist feel even more important. But from a balance side of things this is definitely not balanced and does not share the same design philosophy on the power of the rest of the healing in the game.

Suggestion: Cut the direct heal from the water field in half and apply the remainder as regeneration. This will allow it to heal the same amount overall, yet have more counter play and reduce it’s burst healing potential.

water fields are easy to counter:
Guardian shelter in middle of the field
guardian walls in middle of the zerg
mesmer area pull
poison fields
2/3 fear /stomp… etc
they are good for organized against unorganized zerg , and tactics should be promoted not banished

Rayya.2591:

water fields are easy to counter:
Guardian shelter in middle of the field
guardian walls in middle of the zerg
mesmer area pull
poison fields
2/3 fear /stomp… etc
they are good for organized against unorganized zerg , and tactics should be promoted not banished

I think somebody missed the point of the high guardian and warrior presence if you think that you will stop a water field with conditions and CC. Everything you just mentioned is easily prevented by those two professions doing the job that is half of the reason they are there: Condition removal and stability. Also keep in mind that the very water field you are trying to stop is healing rain which is also pulsing condition removal.

You might stop a group like that once or twice if they are not used to a group trying to mess with it like that. But after that they will lol and make sure to stability and condition cleanse when it comes time to heal.

Kitten, as an Ele I will run armor of earth specifically for critical moments like that if I feel it is warranted. My utilities are fluid things that adjust to my opponents. They are not set in stone like alot of people think their utilities are.

Helpful to organized groups, yes. OP? No.

Prove it is OP, like with healing numbers and what not. I have a warrior, I can’t stack heal stat, would sooo kitten my warrior. I have used the burst and the leap, it helps but it has never seemed OP. I also don’t run with organized groups very often nor do I usually run a brust build, so maybe players who can enlighten with some facts (showing either point).

Uhhh what. The enemy has water fields too. That suggestion wouldn’t work because you would just have more people blasting it and getting the heal anyhow.

Static field is stronger since it doesn’t take have a 5 AoE limit. “AoE mitigation” is stronger than water fields. Running as a zerg you will in generally take less damage since AoE is capped. I don’t get the point of this where there are a lot of stronger things/mechanics in WvW. WvW groups benefit the most from team utility, fields, damage, and CC. This is why Hammer warriors, guardians, mesmers, necros, and elementalist are valued compared to other professions like Engi or Ranger. In a zerg they just give more. It isn’t that water field needs to be changed but rather WvW needs to be more interesting and dynamic rather than a Zerg fight being the best due to AoE mitigation and getting easy wxp + loot compared to other alternatives.

thieves can spam 4 poison fields x 4 seconds from stealth. fields re -apply poison every second as far i remember.
it is hard to keep up non stop stability .
Warrior 2 utility :
balanced stance / dolyak signet – like 10 seconds each with 30% boon duration
guardian : hallowed ground 10 seconds stability x 5 targets
stand your ground 8 seconds stability x 5 targets with 60% boon duration
Usualy they use the stability when they enter battle not when they regroup to heal /buff.
And sorry i write above guardian shelter – Guardian sanctuary * 900 cast range

Ralathar.7236:

Gab Superstar.4059:

Yes, this will be an unpopular suggestion on these forums.

That being said, you seem to represent the zerging part of our community who think that the role personal skill and organization plays in WvW should be diminished, and as such you might get Arena Net to actually nerf water fields, since in effect you represent the largest part of WvW players.

Actually I regularly run in these type of organized groups. I know the ins and outs and I also know that this change will not stop us from ripping apart the enemy. Our organization and team work causes that. This Water Field nonesense is just additional icing on top of that which allows us to fully heal and re-engage in a matter of seconds.

We regularly handle groups up to 3 times our size. Beyond that you still have good success if you stay mobile, but their ability to keep coming starts to outstrip your ability to kill them fast enough and 5 man revives or corpse rushing will overpower you.

But you still want to diminish the effectiveness of organization. For that reason alone this suggestion will be unpopular on the forums. What did you really expect posting here would accomplish?

CuRtoKy.8576:

Uhhh what. The enemy has water fields too. That suggestion wouldn’t work because you would just have more people blasting it and getting the heal anyhow.

Static field is stronger since it doesn’t take have a 5 AoE limit. “AoE mitigation” is stronger than water fields. Running as a zerg you will in generally take less damage since AoE is capped. I don’t get the point of this where there are a lot of stronger things/mechanics in WvW. WvW groups benefit the most from team utility, fields, damage, and CC. This is why Hammer warriors, guardians, mesmers, necros, and elementalist are valued compared to other professions like Engi or Ranger. In a zerg they just give more. It isn’t that water field needs to be changed but rather WvW needs to be more interesting and dynamic rather than a Zerg fight being the best due to AoE mitigation and getting easy wxp + loot compared to other alternatives.

Static Fields are technically stronger and are absolutely beast vs pugs and disorganized groups, but vs good groups stability will be flying around like candy, especially at the start of combat. I find Frozen Ground, unsteady ground, and shockwave is a much more reliable opener and leaves static field up for when the stabilities have the chance to wear off…if they don’t have enough guardians to keep a really high uptime on it that is. Also makes them blow some of the condition removal or eat alot of damage. AOE CC is really the primary job of the staff ele even more than damage I find. Our damage is great, but the CC doesn’t cap at 5 and enables the TEAM to do more damage, not just me.

I of course vary the amount of CC and damage I throw out by need and situation.

Ralathar.7236:

This will be an unpopular suggestion, but in their current state Water Fields are overpowered. They are currently the single fastest way to heal a zerg in short order and are way stronger than the other fields by far. They also completely change the face of how WvW combat is done with their presence.

It is common place for an organized group to run into a battle, kill a good amount, retreat, place a water field, and then everyone uses their blast finishers and the entire zerg is healed to full. Then re-engage. Likewise a well placed water field mid battle can completely heal all the melee inside when called out in advance with organization.

I LOVE this on a tactical side, and it does make my staff elementalist feel even more important. But from a balance side of things this is definitely not balanced and does not share the same design philosophy on the power of the rest of the healing in the game.

Suggestion: Cut the direct heal from the water field in half and apply the remainder as regeneration. This will allow it to heal the same amount overall, yet have more counter play and reduce it’s burst healing potential.

Meh, I don’t think its overpowered as there is so much area of denial in this game that will ruin your day if you rely upon water fields a little too much. Although there is a reason why we bring a mostly ele, hammer warrior and hammer guardian force onto the field – the survivability is insane, and the synergies in this game between CC and healing is really understated.

As with enemy AoE’s healing AoE’s have an area of effect by definition – and so if you can force them out of their comfort zone by charging them or necro condi bombing (ala WoC’s) their water fields are effectively negated.

Yes, nerf the Ele’s more please!

If u want waterfields to be nerfed, than let’s nerf thieves stealth, let’s nerf ranger’s dmg even more, nerf warrior’s Endure the pain time,NERF EVERYTHING..
/sarcasm mode Off

We just got 3 nerfs on Ele’s already, this is enough for now..

BrockMcCleery.9562:

Helpful to organized groups, yes. OP? No.

Prove it is OP, like with healing numbers and what not. I have a warrior, I can’t stack heal stat, would sooo kitten my warrior. I have used the burst and the leap, it helps but it has never seemed OP. I also don’t run with organized groups very often nor do I usually run a brust build, so maybe players who can enlighten with some facts (showing either point).

Roughly 1.5k heals in AOE per pop, I place down the healing rain and no less than 4 people immediately blast finisher it. I mean literally everyone that has a blast finisher is trained to immediately smash the water field. That’s 7.5k healing per blast finisher. so you’ve easily got in excess of 6k healing going round to 5 separate people instant heal. This only gets larger as the group gets bigger and healing of course goes to those with damage first.

Done as an “out of combat” group heal while still considered in combat it does very well. Done in the middle of the enemy zerg all of those blast finishers are also doing area damage and with the plethora of warriors, stunning people without stability.

The regen change would just be to meter the healing out instead of allowing it to endlessly stack. Adrenaline for example isn’t a very hard limit on blast finishers. Neither is initiative.

Ralathar.7236:

Suggestion: Cut the direct heal from the water field in half and apply the remainder as regeneration. This will allow it to heal the same amount overall, yet have more counter play and reduce it’s burst healing potential.

How much heal does a water field deal?

But…I’m a ranger. Don’t you like us?

Just ignore this guy and maybe he’ll go away

Tarkus.4109:

Meh, I don’t think its overpowered as there is so much area of denial in this game that will ruin your day if you rely upon water fields a little too much. Although there is a reason why we bring a mostly ele, hammer warrior and hammer guardian force onto the field – the survivability is insane, and the synergies in this game between CC and healing is really understated.

Not perhaps ironically it is those exact classes with insane survivability getting the most benefit out of this. The backline ele’s like me are taking relatively little damage. Heck to be fair I’m made out of wet tissue paper….that’s on fire!! I have no survivability at all haha, yet no issues staying alive with them wrecking shop up there.

As a note, with proper mobility and positioning the AOE factor is dramatically reduced for the front line guys. This leads to more of a rolling engagement instead of a head on engagement like pugs and the option to change directions or withdrawal is always open. Sometimes this means you sacrifice a dodge or two to achieve the better positioning again, but it certainly defeats that area of denial when your team is moving as a single unit and fluidly avoiding the AOEs.

As with enemy AoE’s healing AoE’s have an area of effect by definition – and so if you can force them out of their comfort zone by charging them or necro condi bombing (ala WoC’s) their water fields are effectively negated.

Problem is by the time the water field goes down it’s instantly being blasted. There isn’t time to counter. You would literally have to predict it ahead of time to even try. especially in the larger fights with any lag.

I just think that there is a definite problem when 80-90% of the non-self healing is being provided by a combo field. I mean this game isn’t a trinity, or isn’t supposed to be anyhows, but for a combo field to be providing your main source of healing seems a little off still and it’s spike healing to boot.

It also completely marginalizes the other fields.

Raestloz.7134:

Ralathar.7236:

Suggestion: Cut the direct heal from the water field in half and apply the remainder as regeneration. This will allow it to heal the same amount overall, yet have more counter play and reduce it’s burst healing potential.

How much heal does a water field deal?

Edit: Consolidated reply below

Gab Superstar.4059:

But you still want to diminish the effectiveness of organization. For that reason alone this suggestion will be unpopular on the forums. What did you really expect posting here would accomplish?

I suppose you could view it like that. But if 20 people could coordinate and 1 shot 60 people you could also view that the same way. So apparently such points are relative to at least some degree.

I expect to throw the idea out there, provide reasons, and get shot down. But it was seen, it was heard, and it will be more abused. This will inevitably lead towards it’s balancing one way or another.

BrockMcCleery.9562:

Helpful to organized groups, yes. OP? No.

Prove it is OP, like with healing numbers and what not. I have a warrior, I can’t stack heal stat, would sooo kitten my warrior. I have used the burst and the leap, it helps but it has never seemed OP. I also don’t run with organized groups very often nor do I usually run a brust build, so maybe players who can enlighten with some facts (showing either point).

1.5k+ heals in AOE per pop (like 1.3k base wirh 0.2 scaling on healing power), I place down the healing rain and no less than 4 people immediately blast finisher it. That’s 7.5k healing per blast finisher. so you’ve easily got in excess of 6k healing going round to 5 separate people instant heal.

My personal healing rain (100 healing power lol) 1k+ per person (depends on how long people get to get regen from it) and 1k-2k per person from geyser depending on how many ticks they get. So a total of 10-15k possible healing from me, most likely going to get 10k out of it without full durations and targets. Ironically a single water blast finisher from me would net me 7.5 k healing to those in range instantly, so that thief with shortbow would outheal both of my healing spells with 2 blasts.

IF I had gotten alot of healing power (lets say 1,500) I could potentially heal for 2k-3k per person from geyser and 2k+ per healing rain for a total of 20k-25k total healing. But then again the water field blast scales almost as well with the blaster’s healing power haha, and none of it is regen.

. . .The End !. . .

Using a water field heals in group combat effectively is one of the few good tactics left in open field battle. It makes or breaks a GvG battle and is a deciding factor in balanced out battles.

Sure remove it…

LOL @ this thread

OP: don’t talk wet.

I have another suggestion OP:

How about instead of calling for nerf, you get better and disrupt/prevent the enemy group of using water fields properly.

I think I understand what the original poster is saying. Currently, the use of water fields increases the skill ceiling of WvW, therefore it is unfriendly to players who wish to play as an unorganised mass rather than a coordinated force.

Because of this, I have no doubt it will indeed be taken as a serious suggestion and be nerfed.

:x

Why are people trying to kill all organised and skilled play in this game? :’(

So you want to remove a strategy that requires rganisation and coordination, and leave us with just xharging the zerg……

No

This is a joke right? Because I didn’t quite get it, but please tell me this is a joke. It sure seems like it, but didn’t make me laugh.

OP is the ‘1’ presser in a zerg and couldn’t stand a group of 18-25 players rolled their 80 man zerg?

My suggestion in this thread doesn’t lower the total healing but instead lowers the spike healing and possibly even raises slightly the overall healing. Considering the extremely negative reactions to this I believe it is obvious that the main use of water fields is AOE spike healing of large amounts. I

do not believe it is intended for water fields to be AOE spike healing at the level it’s at right now. Properly used water fields heal more than anything else in the game is capable of without any need of stats and absolutely eliminates the need for any support character specialized in healing. You would be much more effective focusing on other builds and just throwing down a water field.

This AOE spike healing further allows group composition that focuses on tankiness, boons, and condition removal primarily and dps secondarily. The sustainability hole that would be present in such a group is completely mitigated by the abuse of water fields. No doubt some of these builds will be tweaked/nerfed downwards at some time, but a reduction in the spike healing of the water field could reduce the need for such tweaks/nerfs.

This also only puts even more emphasis on the already strong hammer/horn/shout warrior and support guardian builds. Low CD blast finishers from Earth-shaker (10s) and might blow (5s) combined with water fields give significant healing in an area as well as significant damage and CC.

Ironically while some folks claim that water fields increase the skill ceiling and promote class diversity it does the exact opposite. Without the need to rely on actual specs for sustainability in fights people are allowed to focus on a few specific professions and spec’s.

The organizational skill of water field is also minimal. The elementalist places it on the heavies and calls it out. The heavies blast it. Occasionally a water field is asked for and it is placed. Nobody has to do anything even close to difficult at all. It’s when I say water field and you see it you use Earth Shaker or Mighty Blow. You are already grouped up in one spot together, the water field requires very very very little additional organization.

Questions to all those who oppose this:

In my suggestion the Water Field heals the same overall or more. How does it destroy the ability of an organized group to gain better advantage of it for there to be counter-play and less spike healing that is difficult to stop?

Wouldn’t an organized group get even better results from this? For instance stacking a few boon sharing mesmers in a water field before a battle and getting them 10-20 seconds of regeneration and more group buffs then having them share it?

Wouldn’t boon corruption/stealing/stripping builds be a little more viable by being able to limit more of the healing out there with properly spec’d counter play?

Anet nerfed Retaliation simply because there was too much of it WvW as a result of Light Fields + Blast = AoE Retaliation.

It wouldn’t surprise me if Water Fields get the same treatment at some point.

hahahahahahahahahaha