Guild Wars 2

Thrumdi.9216:

Anet nerfed Retaliation simply because there was too much of it WvW as a result of Light Fields + Blast = AoE Retaliation.

It wouldn’t surprise me if Water Fields get the same treatment at some point.

Quite true. A % return would be better I think though considering it hurts some attacks ridiculously disproportionately.

I really hope this is a troll.

It all sounds very reasonable, but I can only wonder what tier you’re on and what groups you’re going up against. You’re describing mechanics against mindless enemies who appear not to use any CC and obligingly wait while people re-group and heal, while no-one contaminates the field. When a water field goes off in the right place at the right time, and gets the ‘4+’ blasts you’re describing, it is rewarding and so it should be for that level of co-ordination. In reality this is not the standard state of play however, it’s more luck than skill in higher tiers with lag, and against opponents who know what they’re doing it’s extremely difficult to accomplish.

Your arguments are based on numbers and theory that bear no relation to the reality of gameplay. You claim to play a staff ele, and want to nerf your own class? Seems a little suspect to me if I’m honest.

I just think OP dislikes rangers and ele’s.

One thing about your proposed change, in a coordinated group i already have a very high uptime of healing so the nerf will be a total of much less, if you nerf water field you should nerf every single healing because without water field i just get more guardian and use empower with the same exact effect, i think you don’t link the meta but i don’t think is overpower because is a skill base system and a good group will train you to death during your healing phase if you do it slower than them and this promotes a group with more skill to be better than other groups ( of course if numbers of people are close)

Maybe just ask Anet to delete Elementalist

Ralathar.7236:

Questions to all those who oppose this:

In my suggestion the Water Field heals the same overall or more. How does it destroy the ability of an organized group to gain better advantage of it for there to be counter-play and less spike healing that is difficult to stop?

Wouldn’t an organized group get even better results from this? For instance stacking a few boon sharing mesmers in a water field before a battle and getting them 10-20 seconds of regeneration and more group buffs then having them share it?

Wouldn’t boon corruption/stealing/stripping builds be a little more viable by being able to limit more of the healing out there with properly spec’d counter play?

Because you’re trying to cripple the organised group so they can’t charge back in before the loads of downed players have been ressed by the blob of over 9000 players.
Also this would be more advantageous to the blob as they would just have to pass through the waterfield to get the imba regen because they fail to stack properly.

do, not, touch, COMBO FIELDS.

Thats the organised little bit of something you do in this game. Attack, gather, spread, gather. Coordinate, rotate.
Combos are something that anet needs to encourage.

I would add some new special effects that can only be gained from some more difficult combos. Like take Frost auras 10% mitigation without all the chills, but twice longer. Or mayby something cooler, like 5% chance to proc life steal buff for 10seconds. With some difficult combo. Just question how they could implement more combos.

I heard you like combos, so I put combos in yo combos!

Barabajagal.6147:

Your arguments are based on numbers and theory that bear no relation to the reality of gameplay. You claim to play a staff ele, and want to nerf your own class? Seems a little suspect to me if I’m honest.

I play all classes, Ele is my main. Currently in WvW there are some grave imbalances in certain professions and spec’s. It’s not class wide, it’s just specific builds that reap so much more than other builds. Which is why both Warriors and Guardians will see select builds toned down even as others are improved.

Staff Ele’s are in an interesting spot. I feel extremely effective in WvW, but not specifically overpowered. But it’s close honestly. The amount of AOE CC and AOE damage that Ele is capable of far exceeds any other profession at range. If they make some small down tweaks to Staff ele In that area I would not be surprised or upset. People are worried about small scale staff Ele, but that’s really not the purpose of that weapon for us at all. If anything Ele needs buffed it’s Scepter and a few select mainhand dagger skills. Well, and conjured weapons + a couple utility skills of course.

I don’t see water fields as a nerf to my own class but rather a nerf to something that affects my own class. Reality is it would be a bigger indirect nerf to the heavies that are currently dominating the WvW game. I don’t want heavies nerfed into oblivion, but currently myriad factors combine to make them not have any good and realistic counters. With high toughness, high vitality, plentiful CC, and massive amounts of condition removal it’s difficult to really deal with them in a group setting when backed up by water fields.

Since the result achieved is from many different angles, so to does the balancing of it need to come from many angles so no single aspect is destroyed by the nerf hammer. Hammer/horn shout builds will be nerfed no doubt. Hopefully only in WvW where they are the issue. Runes of the Soldier will likely get some sort of short Cooldown.

Honestly though, ultimately after those types of changes take place Staff Ele will still be in exactly the same place of usefulness. Water Fields would still be loved and used, I would still have all the CC and AOE I do now. But maybe some other spec’s could be used for some of the other parts of the group instead of the current status quo.

Sabull.5670:

do, not, touch, COMBO FIELDS.

This.

Gather group and do combos properly it’s one of the few things left between a mass of headless zerglings and a somewhat organized setup.

Don’t touch or nerf those.

Ilesyt.7084:

Because you’re trying to cripple the organised group so they can’t charge back in before the loads of downed players have been ressed by the blob of over 9000 players.
Also this would be more advantageous to the blob as they would just have to pass through the waterfield to get the imba regen because they fail to stack properly.

Actually if Elementalists are doing their job those loads of downed players should be crushed very quickly. One of the things that Staff Ele excels at is killiing downed players. Our AOE DPS is really good, but it’s partially avoidable, however downed players cannot avoid the DPS. Once the initial clash has happened and people go downed everywhere you should be focusing a good part of your attention on killing the clusters of downed. It also does a great service to your team in the form of rallies!!

If everyone is doing their job and they are still rezzing people faster than you can kill them? You chose a bad battle, you should be choosing a new location to fight them because the current location is a poor choice. Even with full spiked water fields the conflict you describe is one that will likely get your group killed even if it’s through attrition by losing 1 man at a time until you get rolled.

The hard limit to being able to hit bigger ORGANIZED zergs is not the speed which you can re-engage, but whether you can kill them fast enough. If you cannot inflict the required amount of damage within the initial push or two you will lose, healing up a little better will not change that at all. The current heavy front line is only useful because not only do they get insane surviability, but they also keep respectable damage that is dealt in cleaves and AOE’s, of which a large amount of this is also CC. Between the front line CC and the ele CC there is alot of CC going around and the biggest thing all that CC is doing is stopping people from avoiding damage.

I believe everyone that has been in an organized group has seen the difference between hitting a large enemy group and reaping them like wheat, and hitting a large enemy group and them rolling around and making a big fight of it. The difference is nearly always the CC quotient keeping them in the DPS that kills them.

So your effectiveness vs the normal unorganized zerg blob shouldn’t really change much. They are dying to everything else you do, not your spike heal bombs. Those are only truly important vs another organized group.

Also a note: The DPS required to wipe a group obviously rises with the size of the group in slightly greater than a linear fashion. However it’s also heavily affected by thing such as distance to the nearest WP or Tower/Keep, or other enemy forces in an area. So the location of a battle and the timing is extremely important when battling larger groups.

Sabull.5670:

do, not, touch, COMBO FIELDS.

This.

Gather group and do combos properly it’s one of the few things left between a mass of headless zerglings and a somewhat organized setup.

Don’t touch or nerf those.

Actually, you should buff some combo capabilities and/or effect instead, even if for wvw only!

You know what else is overpowered? Damage. I go afk for five minutes, and I come back to find myself dead and buried with a gravestone marker. They should nerf it so that I can safely leave to make myself a sandwich, eat it, and come back to fight one on one for an hour.

Also nerf running. You should only be able to run for ten minutes before being winded, and need to take a break.

I dislike this kind of OP… you always get someone whining about skills needing nerfing because they got beat…

Just watch some gvg battles on youtube and you will see that people still die using waterfields.

The problem is not the skill… the problem is the person/group’s lack of ability to use their own skills.

This thread has put me in a position where I agree with Gab. I no likey..

Look at what you made me do Ralathar! Look!

Water fields are fine. In fact, I think they should make the whole combo system significantly more in-depth and a much, much larger part of the gameplay. In conjunction with other changes I wish to see (which arent relevant to the thread, so Ill spare ya), I think this would lead to a game that is closer to what the playerbase is asking for.

Say I am fighting 1v5. Me on my ele, and the five.. well, they just have blast finishers and water fields to make it simple. One dragons tooth (yes, I run s/f on my ele and yes, it is considered blasphemous and yes, I have been called a noob many times) will come close to negating the blast finishers of several people. I consider that pretty balanced. It actually points to them not being powerful enough. However,
when taken into account the number of AoE heals beyond blast finishers, it seems really quite well balanced in a game where, imo, balance is one of the most serious issues.

I actually think the healing ability of an organized group is right about where it needs to be, when considering all tools at our disposal. Other areas in this game are where balance becomes a much more egregious issue. At least, I am glad to see them FINALLY start splitting up the different game modes in regards to class balances.

Oh relax peoples its just a suggestion. And some of the points are valid!…. But yeah, i think we should encourage strategy whether nerfed or not. But Usually zergs dont use/know much about combo fields.

Isn’t that the whole point of combo fields?

Ralathar.7236:

Barabajagal.6147:

Your arguments are based on numbers and theory that bear no relation to the reality of gameplay. You claim to play a staff ele, and want to nerf your own class? Seems a little suspect to me if I’m honest.

I play all classes, Ele is my main. Currently in WvW there are some grave imbalances in certain professions and spec’s. It’s not class wide, it’s just specific builds that reap so much more than other builds. Which is why both Warriors and Guardians will see select builds toned down even as others are improved.

Staff Ele’s are in an interesting spot. I feel extremely effective in WvW, but not specifically overpowered. But it’s close honestly. The amount of AOE CC and AOE damage that Ele is capable of far exceeds any other profession at range. If they make some small down tweaks to Staff ele In that area I would not be surprised or upset. People are worried about small scale staff Ele, but that’s really not the purpose of that weapon for us at all. If anything Ele needs buffed it’s Scepter and a few select mainhand dagger skills. Well, and conjured weapons + a couple utility skills of course.

I don’t see water fields as a nerf to my own class but rather a nerf to something that affects my own class. Reality is it would be a bigger indirect nerf to the heavies that are currently dominating the WvW game. I don’t want heavies nerfed into oblivion, but currently myriad factors combine to make them not have any good and realistic counters. With high toughness, high vitality, plentiful CC, and massive amounts of condition removal it’s difficult to really deal with them in a group setting when backed up by water fields.

Since the result achieved is from many different angles, so to does the balancing of it need to come from many angles so no single aspect is destroyed by the nerf hammer. Hammer/horn shout builds will be nerfed no doubt. Hopefully only in WvW where they are the issue. Runes of the Soldier will likely get some sort of short Cooldown.

Honestly though, ultimately after those types of changes take place Staff Ele will still be in exactly the same place of usefulness. Water Fields would still be loved and used, I would still have all the CC and AOE I do now. But maybe some other spec’s could be used for some of the other parts of the group instead of the current status quo.

No. You are not indirectly nerfing my ranger you selfish gamer. Get a team and use combo fields.

The sad part is that some have realized that the game can be redesigned in their own image, just complain enough and it will eventually lead to a nerf.

So someone is mad that organized groups know how to use a field the way Anet designed it to be used?

strange.

You know, there are plenty of way to deal with them right?

Water fields already were nerfed, in a sideways fashion. Blast finish heals had an unlimited target cap like warrior shouts and a few others a long time ago in a galaxy far far away, back then elementalists could blast finish every dodge with no cooldown in every attunement. Talk about spike healing…..

But, no, don’t nerf them further. Spike aoe dps and CC is their counter, or siege. Play and counterplay should be encouraged, not just dps racing.

Thrashbarg.9820:

Water fields already were nerfed, in a sideways fashion. Blast finish heals had an unlimited target cap like warrior shouts and a few others a long time ago in a galaxy far far away, back then elementalists could blast finish every dodge with no cooldown in every attunement. Talk about spike healing…..

But, no, don’t nerf them further. Spike aoe dps and CC is their counter, or siege. Play and counterplay should be encouraged, not just dps racing.

Yes, they were nerfed back then because it was becoming a common tactic for people to turtle and it was effective vs nearly every tactic because of AOE caps. There were specific ways to counter it, but even those ways could be defeated with proper counter play. That wasn’t just an imbalance, it was completely game breaking and broke the mechanics placed on the entire rest of the game.

On the contrary there isn’t really counter play if done right. The water fields have a cast time, however so do all AOE’s. Even more against those AOE’s nearly all AOE’s are damage over a duration and not spike.

By the time the water fields are even visible and the AOE casts started the blasts will already be about to happen. The team using it has the further advantage of knowing it is about to be placed for a much quicker reaction time.

…are you on a T1 server? If so, then it’s a T1 problem. Do NOT bring the lower tiers into this problem, especially when nobody else is complaining about it.

I think the point which many people miss is that GW 2 combat is not about heal but dmg migitation. Dodge rolls, boon coverage, positioning that’s how this game supposed to work. As a Guardian, a defensive and protecting class which “replaces” the monk the best on aoe hps i can get is 500? maybe 600? Again in this game you are not supposed to heal others for gadzilions of healthpoints but avoid the dmg so healing is only needed in very dire situations and only by yourself. So while it seems water fields are fine, they just dont fit into the philosophy behind game mechanics and break them as a result.

Ralathar.7236:

Thrashbarg.9820:

Water fields already were nerfed, in a sideways fashion. Blast finish heals had an unlimited target cap like warrior shouts and a few others a long time ago in a galaxy far far away, back then elementalists could blast finish every dodge with no cooldown in every attunement. Talk about spike healing…..

But, no, don’t nerf them further. Spike aoe dps and CC is their counter, or siege. Play and counterplay should be encouraged, not just dps racing.

By the time the water fields are even visible and the AOE casts started the blasts will already be about to happen. The team using it has the further advantage of knowing it is about to be placed for a much quicker reaction time.

Again…hate to repeat myself but: get better. If you are WAITING for a waterfield to be visible before doing anything , you’re doing it wrong.

Tip: watch enemy movement all the time. Predict regrouping and disrupt it.

Have you ever seen good guilds to it? Watch some ZDs, RG and VOTF footage and learn.

Demanding a nerf because YOU get outplayed is really the wrong way to do it.