Guild Wars 2

Something I’ve been noticing is no one really cares much about western keep at the borderlands. I’ve seen commanders literally beg people to defend it, and attacks I’ve seen have been really small compared to taking the other keeps, its more like a skeleton crew was just told “Eh no one defends it, take 5 people and take it will ya?” And really, I can’t blame them. Let’s take a look at this keep:

The outer southern gate is literally at the front door of a supply camp. One team captures that camp now they got basically infinite supply just a minute walk away, add to the little hill that leads towards the gate from the supply camp and you got a spot to build catapults to your hearts content. Also this has to be one of the easier supply camps to defend cause (as far as I know) you can only enter one way, through a chokepoint.

Now what happens once the invaders get inside? The inner place is split in half by water, good spots for invaders to hide out at should the need arise (and I laugh at anyone who mentions sharks, they’re about as useful as a wet cat, and less threatening). Not only that, the invaders are higher above the inner walls and have quite the distance to build even more catapults, again with a supply camp within minutes walking distance (I’m going to ignore the costs and availability of blueprints, people farm jump puzzles so much I’m sure no one has actually bought a blueprint lately).

Now let’s look at the entrances shall we? Compared to the east keep, that only has 2 entrances on the outer gate and 2 on the inner. Garrison does have 5 in the outer gates, but you also get a good height advantage defending them (well if you’re using cannons, otherwise pft). Also the inner gates only has 2 entrances (though one of them seems to be bugged currently and doesn’t upgrade when you buy the gates upgrade). West keep has 3 entrances on the outer, as well as the watergates, and it has another 3 entrances at the inner walls. So there’s that.

Honestly I don’t even know where I’m going with this. Anyone else think that the western keep is just kind of a pain to deal with? On the defense side attackers basically get infinite supply and have a height advantage inside, on the attacking side you just spent this time capture a keep thats a pain to hold, which is evidenced after holding a keep for like hours on end they never bother upgrading it.

And don’t confuse this as some sort of request for buffing it or whatever, just want to know if I’m alone in thinking the western keep is really the worst keep out of the 3 in borderlands.

even if u’r right, just remember, each server has his own home map, et 2 other BL maps.
so each one of us will have this “weak point”.

still the westren keep have a good opening to go fast enough nord, and take the camp of supplies. also that you will be under attack from garni, you can do the same, which it’s impossible to do from the estren keep.

Hills >>>Garrison>>>Bay. Personally I think it’s fine since each of the 3 maps makes it easier for each side to take one of each. Personally though I think the worst thing is being able to to treb the outer wall from garrison, previously these trebs could be taken out by ballista but in my recent matchups they have been placed further back and need to be trebbed to be destroyed which is a little too much as you basically need a zerg there to defend a treb just to relieve pressure on your walls.

Edit: personally I don’t care that much about the bay being this weak but I really think the hills need to be easier to take, A properly defended hills is pretty much impossible to take without overwhelming numbers.

Dont forget that the western keep’s outer wall can be bombed from Garisson and the Tower in the southwest.
So you basicly “need” to hold Garisson and that Tower to hold the Keep. Otherwise they just can smash the outer wall kinda easy and bomb the inner wall with cats from high above.

When you try to defend the inner keep you even have a choke point at the bridge in the keep. If the enemy puts their forces in the southern region, defenders can only try to get you through the bridge, the hole in the gate/wall (which is your supply route) and the stairs which lead up from the water…. basicly 3 choke points.

I love fighting over Bay, but it’s pretty much like Hills.

The team that has spawn near it, has advantage due to back entrance to supply camp.

you can jump over the hill on the eastern side of the supply camp.

Held off Bay for 4-5 hours on multiple occasions last week with very few players due to the mortar upgrades on the inner keep and some teamwork on killing any trebuchets placed outside (only because of mesmers though). I think one 5 hour siege totally 42 pieces of siege equipment for the attackers to dislodge 6 defenders.

I’ve actually found that we tend to hold bay longer than hills because once you get pushed into the lord defense at hills, you ain’t getting back out. I also find Bay easier to defend than Garrison.

Bay keep is the worst keep to hold as others mentioned already.

Let’s quickly compare the two side borderland keeps…

Bay
- 3 outer gates.
- 3 inner gates, 4 inner destroyable walls, with north ones easy to treb from the inner cliff.
- Has water and a general layout that makes moving around in it a pain, and the north cliff is a boon to any enemy that breached the outer walls.
- Entire eastern section has destroyable walls, next to open fields, making it easy to hit them.
- Easiest of all keeps to exploit into.
- Can be trebbed from Garrison, with treb positions that can only be countered by getting close to them. Badly placed trebs can be destroyed with ballistas from the ground.
- Acces to Garrison from Bay is through a small path with stairs, a very easy to defend choke point.
- A very wide and open lord room, making a lord room defense difficult to pull off.
- Because siege weapons like arrow carts cannot target enemies in the water, the water can become a safe zone for attackers.

Hills
- 2 outer gates.
- 2 inner gates, 2 inner destroyable walls with no real weak points.
- Entire western section has destroyable walls but because of the height, any catapult effort is easy to counter. Trebs are even easier to counter, since they can only be placed in a single, predictable location.
- Inner layout forces enemies into a predictable pattern, allowing for easier defense using siege equipement.
- Having to place siege equipement in only 4 critical locations instead of 6 is a big economical advantage.
- Garrison water gate is closest to Hills, allowing for quicker reinforcements from Hills when on an offensive.
- A very small lord room with a very small hall leading into it, making it a very good bottleneck to wipe attackers.

Garrison has it’s own issues aswell ofcourse, such as 5 outer gates, 6 outer destroyable walls, and a water gate inner defense area that is a pain to defend from because of AOE. But still, Bay is by far the worst and most annoying keep to hold.

My solution:

Instead of just making Bay ‘better’, I think Hills needs more changes to make the game play out less predictable in that area.

- Add a 3rd outer gate to Hills, on the west side of the keep. Create a land bridge that goes from the keep area to the hill where you normally place trebs on to shoot at the walls. This adds a much needed extra attack path to the outer section of Hills.

- Add an additional path and gate leading into the inner area on Hills keep. I suggest a mirror of the current path leading to the north inner gate, on the south side of the lord room.

- Bay should no longer be treb-able from Garrison. This is probably the most critical flaw in Bay’s design right now.

- Bay keep needs less water. Add some more dock-like structures to act as bridges. This will make traveling around the place faster and less annoying.

- Garrison’s water gate area both inner and outer needs a redesign: The entrance should be in the middle of the lake, not close to either side keep. The inner door area needs to be more defendable.

I think these are the most important areas. Keep in mind, both keeps need their own strengths are weaknesses, so we don’t end up with 2 of the same keep layouts.

Western Keep can be trebbed safely from Garrison and from South West Tower. The South West Tower treb can take down two walls at once for double supply drain.

Garrison trebs if built correctly cannot be aoed. West Keep sieges are horrible because you have to have Garrison and South West tower to be completely safe. If you lose either of these locations you are vulnerable to long range siege and must contain a large number of players in the outer West Keep or Inner Keep to hold the breach.

In some situations its better to let West Keep fall as long as you can control the South West Tower and Garrison. You get either of those and you can take West Keep any time you want provided you have bodies on the ground to storm it.

If attacking from Western Spawn I try not to get stuck in a protracted West Keep siege. That sometimes involves giving it up for free and putting the enemy in your boots. At least you have map mobility and don’t get bogged down on the West and South quadrant.

General rule of thumb when it comes to trebbing:

Northern Towers > Garrison
Garrison > West Keep
South West Tower/Supply > West Keep
Ruins > South West Tower
East Keep > South East Tower

East Keep is nearly unassailable by long range siege and is by far the easiest Keep to defend. I’ve seen teams treb East Keep from North East Supply but I think thats a horrible place to put yourself in. You have to build a tonne of siege to protect the trebs and you need to station tonnes of defenders to man the siege and prevent the camp from getting overrun. You can overrun North East Supply from like 4 different directions at once. Sometimes I’m happy to see teams committing so many resources to treb outer East Keep because it means those players aren’t doing anything else on the map. They still need to breach inner East Keep and overrun the Lord room which is a nightmare, even without Orbs.

Ruins is the only non map marker objective that has strategic importance and though it can be overrun from many different directions like North East Supply, you can put your arrow carts and trebs on the jumping puzzle, making it easier to defend on the ground.

West Keep is generally just a nightmare. I think of it more like a trap than an asset. It can backfire on you if you attempt to take it at an inopportune time.

@Rasp

I disagree that Bay keep’s water is a disadvantage. I believe it is more of an advantage than a disadvantage.

You can’t place siege on water, so there will be less room to place siege on areas where it isn’t well defended.

-The enemy will have the same movement disadvantage as well.

-Easier surprise attacks. Just bring your zerg underwater and circle around the enemy. If your catapult destroys flame rams, they should be using catapults as well to counter this. Circle around the enemy and destroy their catapults. They won’t be able to see you coming.

I do agree that easier trebbing is a big disadvantage.

The height advantage of attackers once you get into the inner of west keep is also an issue. The attackers are at a disadvantage using rams/golems on the inner but most smart groups just set up trebs on the bridge over the water gate.

I’d say fix trebs from garrison hitting the west keep, and redesign the east because it’s the best keep in the game by far. Reducing the height advantage of defense, and adding at least a west outter gate with a larger field to stand on would go a long way.

Maybe they intended west keep to favor attackers, and east keep to favor defenders, but there are still issues that need to be fixed while not disrupting that idea.

my guild and i love defending bay. it’s probably our favourite keep to hold.

around 10 of us held bay for literally like 5 hours one night againt 2 zergs of 40~ each from our opponent servers.

it was such an epic series of battles it will remain one of my all time favourite wvw sessions for quite some time.

Takes too many human players to hold Bay and Briar.

This leaves that team on the full defensive. Hills+Lake allows defense while maintaining offensive pressure elsewhere.

Of course, if you build up Briar with absurd amounts of siege, with a small coordinated defense force, then Bay becomes a gigantic zerg trap and you can run across the map. In addition, a successful SW defense means that the north team is going to get railed from both the west and east at the same time (unless you are fighting a kittenon in the south).

personally, i think the east keep is the weak link of the three. you only need 5 people to get all the way to the lord’s room there. just. five. add in the countless places mesmers can hide once an outer wall/gate goes down, and it’s constant nagging headache. since there’s a lot of room, a mesmer can do quite a bit of avoidance to remain hidden.

i’d much rather defend the bay. as long as people don’t panic and waste all the supplies there repairing the wall that’s getting damaged by the treb from the garrison, and instead use it to build up some arrow carts and a few catapults to aim at where the hole will eventually be, and possibly a treb in the middle to defend them, you can farm attackers in the choke point for hours.

Bay clearly is the worst of the keeps. However, that does not mean it should be buffed. It is good to have one hard to take keep, and one easy to take keep.

That way, third place servers can simply hold onto “their” hills, giving up “their” bay. While strong servers can prove their mettle by trying to defend bay.

Phantom.8130:

personally, i think the east keep is the weak link of the three. you only need 5 people to get all the way to the lord’s room there. just. five. add in the countless places mesmers can hide once an outer wall/gate goes down, and it’s constant nagging headache. since there’s a lot of room, a mesmer can do quite a bit of avoidance to remain hidden.

i’d much rather defend the bay. as long as people don’t panic and waste all the supplies there repairing the wall that’s getting damaged by the treb from the garrison, and instead use it to build up some arrow carts and a few catapults to aim at where the hole will eventually be, and possibly a treb in the middle to defend them, you can farm attackers in the choke point for hours.

East Keep is definitely the strongest of the 3 keeps by a long way. The south outer gate is near untouchable because of all the places along the cliffs where you can place arrow carts that are immune to aoe. Theres a treb spot in East Keep that is immune to aoe and can reach both destructible walls and the gate at South East Tower and the South East Supply Camp.

The north west outer gate is probably the weakest point. The west facing destructible walls are on cliffsides which force siege to be in arrow cart range. Only viable (and economical) to cat down the wall if you are ninja capping. If you get spotted or the Keep is heavily defended then its not viable.

The inner gates are weak links too but the entire inner keep is one big choke point. Its a Superior Ballista + Arrowcart jamboree. When Orbs were in the game this was totally the best keep to put one in because it made the Lord invincible and you could hold inner against an 80 man Zerg with like 10 dudes and the right configuration of arrowcarts and ballistas. Even now its still really easy to defend with small numbers.

Theres not many good hiding spots in East Keep. I’d say maybe 3 reasonably good ones with one of them requiring footsies for it to work. None of them are as good as the Garrison ones which are amazing. It takes me like 10 minutes to sweep Garrison because there are so many amazing hiding spots, some of which require technical jumps to reach.

A fully upgraded, pre sieged and defended East Keep is a nightmare to assault. Its almost unassailable by long range siege and theres only a couple of ways in that aren’t totally suicidal. You need overwhelming numbers.

Don’t underestimate those sharks – they’re trained killers AND lifesavers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EUIIkwP2eU

Ryuujin.8236:

Don’t underestimate those sharks – they’re trained killers AND lifesavers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EUIIkwP2eU

I’m gonna die near a shark now just to see if it saves me >.>

I just realised that i have never been attacked by one of the dreaming bay sharks….maybe if they buffed them to be super scary, then that would improve things.

I believe you can treb the East Keep’s outer walls from FH cliff and the western hills. So if you lose your anti-treb siege weapons and you lack the man-power to overpower these treb spots, East Keep outer walls will fall just the same.

The one thing I find (at least on my server) is that people place too much emphasis on the outer walls and neglect the inner wall. They put up huge amount of siege fortifications on the outer wall, and nothing on the inner. So when the outer wall gets trebbed down, the inner falls quickly afterwards because there is little to no defense.

Imho the Western Keep’s outer walls are weak but the inner is pretty kitten strong, if proper siege were set up before the outer walls are down. Any assault treb/catapults within or on the outer walls can be counter sieged. So I wouldn’t bother repairing those outer walls and would attempt make the area between inner wall and outer wall a death trap if I were to try to last as long as possible.

You can also treb the inner wall of West keep from the supply camp hill while you are taking down the outer wall. For this reason alone, I feel that West keep is the hardest to defend.