Guild Wars 2

Personally, I LOVE large battle “Zerg” fights because of the focus of team coordination and team effort. However that isn’t to say I don’t like small group combat.

One of the weirdest things I have found in this game is that people tend to look down on Zerg fighting and saying that zerg fighters don’t have any skill. I see many threads where people go “Oh hey guys lets introduce X to the game to discourage zergs” which is not the correct approach to improve the game.

First off, let’s take a look at “Zergs” and what that means. A zerg fight is just a large group of people fighting another large group of players. There is nothing inherently less skillful about fighting MORE players. However, individual skill is less necessary in Zerg fights compared to a let’s say 5v5 fight. Instead group coordination and group positioning is far more important. Let’s say you have a 50 man zerg against another 50 man zerg. There may be some players who have effectively “mastered” their class and are very efficient with it in combat but they can quite easily lose the fight because the opposing zerg out maneuvered their zerg and worked better as a team.

Next, let’s take a look at what people don’t like about zergs. One of the main issues people have with zergs is that the whole notion of “Simply have more players and you win the fight” which can be a valid frustration for many WvW players like myself who have servers that are quite capable of being top tier due to great coordination but simply do not have the numbers to keep up with say T1 servers. However, larger numbers do have their downfalls. In an objective based game mode like WvW having a large mass of people on one position means that every other position potentially has fewer numbers making them susceptible to attacks. Here, where I believe the problem is, is that people don’t really have all that much of a reason to say take a tower for better PPT because they aren’t really rewarded anything through having superior PPT and what really should be encouraged is server decision making and deciding whether or not they should really all go to the same place to make a ball of players who will have the upper hand in fights due to sheer numbers or should they split their players to better capture an array of objectives. Here, things such as server rewards that we will be seeing in Season 1 would fix this problem.

Next, let’s look at another common complaint. Due to lag most zerg fights just dissolve into players spamming their auto-attack button and not pulling off well coordinated combos. However, the appropriate response shouldn’t be to simply say “let’s discourage zerg fights” and instead should be more along the lines of “let’s fix our server performance”

TheAmpca.1753:

I don’t think you understand. There is literally NOTHING about adding more people to a fight that decreases skill required. Instead it shifts individual skill over to group skill. A group of 50 mashing the 1 button will not beat a group of 50 who positions carefully, and uses CC healing and buffs carefully. However, I do agree that there are less tools in open field combat to let smaller groups out play larger groups.

Large scale combat isn’t necessarily “zerging”. The term ‘zerg’ comes from an NPC race in StarCraft, mindless aliens you could use as cannon fodder basically.

Zerging is large scale stupid combat, when players don’t know or care about positioning because they simply outnumber their opponents and can win by brute force alone.

Large scale, coordinated combat is quite fun until there are simply too many people involved for the server to handle.

TheAmpca.1753:

Next, let’s look at another common complaint. Due to lag most zerg fights just dissolve into players spamming their auto-attack button and not pulling off well coordinated combos. However, the appropriate response shouldn’t be to simply say “let’s discourage zerg fights” and instead should be more along the lines of “let’s fix our server performance”

It’s not something they can fix. Their servers are as top of the line as they can get, their game engine as modern as possible given development costs. The problem is the game is too complex for current tech. 80v80v80 results in billions of simultaneous calculations over 240 systems with varying latency. With combo fields/finishers, projectile physics, position/direction/velocity based calculations, boon/condition interaction/stacks/timers/power of sources etc. there is more going on behind the scenes than the combat in any other MMO.

The only fix would be to reduce total map caps, which they are very reluctant to do, for various reasons.

Thrashbarg.9820:

The only fix would be to reduce total map caps, which they are very reluctant to do, for various reasons.

Another potential fix is to have an additional EB-style map unlocked for T1-T2 matchups to spread people out. However, none of those solutions would fix boring PvDoor gameplay, which IMO is a gameplay issue up there with mindless zerging and skill lag.

Thrashbarg.9820:

Large scale combat isn’t necessarily “zerging”. The term ‘zerg’ comes from an NPC race in StarCraft, mindless aliens you could use as cannon fodder basically.

Zerging is large scale stupid combat, when players don’t know or care about positioning because they simply outnumber their opponents and can win by brute force alone.

Large scale, coordinated combat is quite fun until there are simply too many people involved for the server to handle.

TheAmpca.1753:

Next, let’s look at another common complaint. Due to lag most zerg fights just dissolve into players spamming their auto-attack button and not pulling off well coordinated combos. However, the appropriate response shouldn’t be to simply say “let’s discourage zerg fights” and instead should be more along the lines of “let’s fix our server performance”

It’s not something they can fix. Their servers are as top of the line as they can get, their game engine as modern as possible given development costs. The problem is the game is too complex for current tech. 80v80v80 results in billions of simultaneous calculations over 240 systems with varying latency. With combo fields/finishers, projectile physics, position/direction/velocity based calculations, boon/condition interaction/stacks/timers/power of sources etc. there is more going on behind the scenes than the combat in any other MMO.

The only fix would be to reduce total map caps, which they are very reluctant to do, for various reasons.

It’s almost certainly possible to farm some of the current server-only computations to clients.

To prevent cheating, the server would always simultaneously be doing a random collection of those computations — and if your client is giving different answers, they ban you (not really as simplistic as different answer = ban, but that’s the gist of it).

This idea even includes Anet’s favorite tool: RNG!

The problem with zergs is simple.

A player in a zerg does not feel important or significant.

This turns many, many people off of WvW, especially when they can do the PVE zerg thing and recieve far better rewards.

Caliburn.1845:

The problem with zergs is simple.

A player in a zerg does not feel important or significant.

This turns many, many people off of WvW, especially when they can do the PVE zerg thing and recieve far better rewards.

On the other hand, a player in a zerg feels no pressure. He’s totally anonymous and can hide in the back of the zerg spamming ranged skills if he wishes. If his zerg gets wiped, he doesn’t feel responsible since he’s just one amongst many. However, he does feel some sense of accomplishment when his zerg wins because of all the loot bags he gets. There’s no stress involved.

I think a lot of players enjoy this win-win type situation and that’s why we will always see zergs in this game.

Zergs have been looked down on in many games not just GW2. The problem isn’t zergs, its the fact that they are heavily favored by Anet. Also what is a zerg ? Is it 15+, 20+, 30+ ? I would say usually when you hit the 30+ mark skill does tend to go out the window, its now just a blob of people steam rolling and mashing 1. There’s nothing wrong with it, it allows casuals to jump in stick on a dorito and off they go. The fact that a poorly played zerg can just steam roll smaller numbers that vastly out skill them is a problem. In most cases even if a group of 10-15 play like gods and use every advantage possible (choke points, Terrain, Fields) the blob will still mash 1 and win, which shouldn’t happen, this is where Devon is confused when he thinks there is Skill involved in WvW.

Tbh the only way to fix blobs is much larger maps with no WP’s aside from spawns. Which will never happen. More maps will just mean more queued maps on T1/T1.5

Nuzt.7894:

Zergs have been looked down on in many games not just GW2. The problem isn’t zergs, its the fact that they are heavily favored by Anet. Also what is a zerg ? Is it 15+, 20+, 30+ ? I would say usually when you hit the 30+ mark skill does tend to go out the window, its now just a blob of people steam rolling and mashing 1. There’s nothing wrong with it, it allows casuals to jump in stick on a dorito and off they go. The fact that a poorly played zerg can just steam roll smaller numbers that vastly out skill them is a problem. In most cases even if a group of 10-15 play like gods and use every advantage possible (choke points, Terrain, Fields) the blob will still mash 1 and win, which shouldn’t happen, this is where Devon is confused when he thinks there is Skill involved in WvW.

I don’t think you understand. There is literally NOTHING about adding more people to a fight that decreases skill required. Instead it shifts individual skill over to group skill. A group of 50 mashing the 1 button will not beat a group of 50 who positions carefully, and uses CC healing and buffs carefully. However, I do agree that there are less tools in open field combat to let smaller groups out play larger groups.

TheAmpca.1753:

Personally, I LOVE large battle “Zerg” fights because of the focus of team coordination and team effort.

Team coordination, where? Unless you think stacking and blasting is something to be excited about, I fail to see what you are talking about.

Zergs are important in any open world pvp game because they provide an entry point for new or casual players and they provide the raw numbers sometimes needed for large objective battles.

In GW2 however zergs are not just this entry point, they have become the only point. The game caters to zerg play in every aspect and as such there is nothing encouraging the zerg to play better, to get better, for meta to evolve at a slower then snail pace.

We are a year into the game and the current pinnacle of achievement is the GvG crowd that thinks running in a big PVT hammer train smashing the biggest clump of red names is coordination. I think GvG’s have done a lot to progress the quality of fighting in the game, but seriously that is pretty weak progression for a year since release.

So to answer your question, the problem with zergs in GW2 is that they play poorly, create a boring WvW environment, greatly reduce the overall skill cap, and are rewarded for it.

Niim.9260:

TheAmpca.1753:

Personally, I LOVE large battle “Zerg” fights because of the focus of team coordination and team effort.

Team coordination, where? Unless you think stacking and blasting is something to be excited about, I fail to see what you are talking about.

Zergs are important in any open world pvp game because they provide an entry point for new or casual players and they provide the raw numbers sometimes needed for large objective battles.

In GW2 however zergs are not just this entry point, they have become the only point. The game caters to zerg play in every aspect and as such there is nothing encouraging the zerg to play better, to get better, for meta to evolve at a slower then snail pace.

We are a year into the game and the current pinnacle of achievement is the GvG crowd that thinks running in a big PVT hammer train smashing the biggest clump of red names is coordination. I think GvG’s have done a lot to progress the quality of fighting in the game, but seriously that is pretty weak progression for a year since release.

So to answer your question, the problem with zergs in GW2 is that they play poorly, create a boring WvW environment, greatly reduce the overall skill cap, and are rewarded for it.

So what I am understanding from your post is that you have not experienced coordinated team play seeing as you say it doesn’t exist and how you fail to bring up points showing how the game rewards mindless fighting. However, you have to realize just because you have not experienced high quality coordination does not mean it doesn’t exist. GW2 offers quite a bit in the way of coordination. From CC timing to positioning to healing timing to combo fields to veil coordination, you can do quite a bit in the game. However, if the player base fails to use it for team coordination that’s a different story and there is no problem with the game.

Anyways if you think that the combat mechanics are interesting enough you shouldn’t just try to downplay zerg fighting and saying “oh this is boring i don’t like it let’s get rid of it” and instead look on how it can be improved. Suggestions on what kinds of mechanics would make fighting more interesting is a much better way to make the game better and was the real purpose of this thread.

TheAmpca.1753:

Niim.9260:

TheAmpca.1753:

Personally, I LOVE large battle “Zerg” fights because of the focus of team coordination and team effort.

Team coordination, where? Unless you think stacking and blasting is something to be excited about, I fail to see what you are talking about.

Zergs are important in any open world pvp game because they provide an entry point for new or casual players and they provide the raw numbers sometimes needed for large objective battles.

In GW2 however zergs are not just this entry point, they have become the only point. The game caters to zerg play in every aspect and as such there is nothing encouraging the zerg to play better, to get better, for meta to evolve at a slower then snail pace.

We are a year into the game and the current pinnacle of achievement is the GvG crowd that thinks running in a big PVT hammer train smashing the biggest clump of red names is coordination. I think GvG’s have done a lot to progress the quality of fighting in the game, but seriously that is pretty weak progression for a year since release.

So to answer your question, the problem with zergs in GW2 is that they play poorly, create a boring WvW environment, greatly reduce the overall skill cap, and are rewarded for it.

So what I am understanding from your post is that you have not experienced coordinated team play seeing as you say it doesn’t exist and how you fail to bring up points showing how the game rewards mindless fighting. However, you have to realize just because you have not experienced high quality coordination does not mean it doesn’t exist. GW2 offers quite a bit in the way of coordination. From CC timing to positioning to healing timing to combo fields to veil coordination, you can do quite a bit in the game. However, if the player base fails to use it for team coordination that’s a different story and there is no problem with the game.

I never said it doesn’t exist, your topic is talking about the ‘zerg’ in general. Not a specific zerg, a specific guild or a specific group and thus my response was about the zerg in general. To be clear as well we are talking about coordinated team play in zergs.

The fact that it can exist doesn’t make it the norm, and the reason it will not be the norm is because the game systems do not encourage people to take that next step in being that organized. The solution to every problem in GW2 is more people and the game rewards them for it.

The vast majority of the zergs in the game are closer to what I described then what you described, and that is the problem with zergs.

Niim.9260:

TheAmpca.1753:

Niim.9260:

TheAmpca.1753:

Personally, I LOVE large battle “Zerg” fights because of the focus of team coordination and team effort.

Team coordination, where? Unless you think stacking and blasting is something to be excited about, I fail to see what you are talking about.

Zergs are important in any open world pvp game because they provide an entry point for new or casual players and they provide the raw numbers sometimes needed for large objective battles.

In GW2 however zergs are not just this entry point, they have become the only point. The game caters to zerg play in every aspect and as such there is nothing encouraging the zerg to play better, to get better, for meta to evolve at a slower then snail pace.

We are a year into the game and the current pinnacle of achievement is the GvG crowd that thinks running in a big PVT hammer train smashing the biggest clump of red names is coordination. I think GvG’s have done a lot to progress the quality of fighting in the game, but seriously that is pretty weak progression for a year since release.

So to answer your question, the problem with zergs in GW2 is that they play poorly, create a boring WvW environment, greatly reduce the overall skill cap, and are rewarded for it.

So what I am understanding from your post is that you have not experienced coordinated team play seeing as you say it doesn’t exist and how you fail to bring up points showing how the game rewards mindless fighting. However, you have to realize just because you have not experienced high quality coordination does not mean it doesn’t exist. GW2 offers quite a bit in the way of coordination. From CC timing to positioning to healing timing to combo fields to veil coordination, you can do quite a bit in the game. However, if the player base fails to use it for team coordination that’s a different story and there is no problem with the game.

I never said it doesn’t exist, your topic is talking about the ‘zerg’ in general. Not a specific zerg, a specific guild or a specific group and thus my response was about the zerg in general.

The fact that it can exist doesn’t make it the norm, and the reason it will not be the norm is because the game systems do not encourage people to take that next step in being that organized. The solution to every problem in GW2 is more people and the game rewards them for it.

The vast majority of the zergs in the game are closer to what I described then what you described, and that is the problem with zergs.

Ah I see what you mean. However, you have to take into account that winning an open field fight wont make your server win. It CAN make your server do better if it is say an open field fight in a keep but there Arrow Carts and such can be a great numbers equalizer.

What I see the problem is, is that sticking in a ball will provide superior individual loot for players and wont really hurt the server because PPT is quite meaningless. I think an appropriate response to this would be to increase rewards for having superior PPT since a mass of people at one spot can only contest one position and thus provide inferior PPT control.

Lord Kuru.3685:

Thrashbarg.9820:

Large scale combat isn’t necessarily “zerging”. The term ‘zerg’ comes from an NPC race in StarCraft, mindless aliens you could use as cannon fodder basically.

Zerging is large scale stupid combat, when players don’t know or care about positioning because they simply outnumber their opponents and can win by brute force alone.

Large scale, coordinated combat is quite fun until there are simply too many people involved for the server to handle.

TheAmpca.1753:

Next, let’s look at another common complaint. Due to lag most zerg fights just dissolve into players spamming their auto-attack button and not pulling off well coordinated combos. However, the appropriate response shouldn’t be to simply say “let’s discourage zerg fights” and instead should be more along the lines of “let’s fix our server performance”

It’s not something they can fix. Their servers are as top of the line as they can get, their game engine as modern as possible given development costs. The problem is the game is too complex for current tech. 80v80v80 results in billions of simultaneous calculations over 240 systems with varying latency. With combo fields/finishers, projectile physics, position/direction/velocity based calculations, boon/condition interaction/stacks/timers/power of sources etc. there is more going on behind the scenes than the combat in any other MMO.

The only fix would be to reduce total map caps, which they are very reluctant to do, for various reasons.

It’s almost certainly possible to farm some of the current server-only computations to clients.

To prevent cheating, the server would always simultaneously be doing a random collection of those computations — and if your client is giving different answers, they ban you (not really as simplistic as different answer = ban, but that’s the gist of it).

This idea even includes Anet’s favorite tool: RNG!

They already have the maximum possible done clientside. Mid-range CPUs can be near 100% in big zerg fights.

You’re also assuming the zergs fight each other which I’d say rarely happens. This is incorrect many zergs run 60+ guys in every undefended tower & camp they can find, and 20 guys can’t beat them because unless they play perfectly one of those guys goes down all the enemy downs rally. A 20 man has to give up its dps & its positioning advantages to work downs to death. A zerg can get downs up easier than a 20 man & has the weight to crush a 20 man’s downs in seconds by spamming 1. In my opinion the downed state is what makes zergs so formidable, they get 1 enemy down & 20 guys leap to their feet like some horrible zombie army. When it comes to zerging there’s no such thing as a skilled zerg, what you are talking about is a guild group flanking a zerg fight which is what we call zerg-diving.

I have no problem with zerg fights per se. The problem with the tagging system in WvW more generally is that it ONLY promotes big zerg fights and so is anti-strategy. Zergs do individual objects faster but get the same rewards.

A roamer can demonstrate greater skill in a 1v1, 1vX, or small scale fight while in that same time, in a zerg they could have gotten 50 times the reward of a 1v1. So the default and unchangeable meta is always towards bigger zergs to do individual objectives as fast as possible.

It’s anti-strategy and there’s no incentive to form smaller groups that could be much more efficient.

The main problem with zergs is that a smaller force can’t beat them, or avoid them, or do anything other than get killed by them. Therefore the smaller force doesn’t bother playing.

Remove the AoE limit or at least increase it then I would have zero problems with zergs. Right now, if people are globbed into a big enough ball(big being relative) they can play pretty sloppily and win. Like keep rushing through obvious choke points or having 10 people break off from the other 30 to chase down 3 knowing that if it backfires they can just dive back into the zerg, etc etc. It’s so bad that the “zerg” could be a skill group and you probably won’t even know the difference.

Zergs require no skill

Zergs tend to be decided by if you have more players than the other zerg, thats it ( see my first line)

In Zergs people tend to just target one or two people at a time and jump then (rinse and repeat)

Zergs can be really laggy and a clusterkitten of random people and skills

Zergs arent fun (To me at least)

TheAmpca.1753:

What I see the problem is, is that sticking in a ball will provide superior individual loot for players and wont really hurt the server because PPT is quite meaningless. I think an appropriate response to this would be to increase rewards for having superior PPT since a mass of people at one spot can only contest one position and thus provide inferior PPT control.

Will be happening starting with League Season 1.

I love big fights – up to the limit where skill-lag sets in.
I love it even more when we get most of our zerg on TS and we can really go to town.

What I don’t love is one server roflstomping around the map trashing a heavily outnumbered opponent – but that’s the game design.
It’s even worse if you have to queue to get in then get roflstomped.

Thrashbarg.9820:

It’s not something they can fix. Their servers are as top of the line as they can get, their game engine as modern as possible given development costs. The problem is the game is too complex for current tech. 80v80v80 results in billions of simultaneous calculations over 240 systems with varying latency. With combo fields/finishers, projectile physics, position/direction/velocity based calculations, boon/condition interaction/stacks/timers/power of sources etc. there is more going on behind the scenes than the combat in any other MMO.

Do you know the server stats? If so please share…

The real problem with Zergs is that they make the game unplayable because of skill lag. That’s not the fault of zergs, of course, but ANets unwillingness to put in resources to solve that particular problem.

Thrashbarg.9820:

It’s not something they can fix. Their servers are as top of the line as they can get, their game engine as modern as possible given development costs. The problem is the game is too complex for current tech. 80v80v80 results in billions of simultaneous calculations over 240 systems with varying latency. With combo fields/finishers, projectile physics, position/direction/velocity based calculations, boon/condition interaction/stacks/timers/power of sources etc. there is more going on behind the scenes than the combat in any other MMO.

There is no such thing as maximum calculation capacity. It’s just a matter of investment and if it’s reasonable to invest as much hardware when it’s only needed for maybe 5% of the time.

The really powerful and expensive computer systems are calculating important things though, like protein compositions, etc. Not silly computer games

Tom Gore.4035:

The real problem with Zergs is that they make the game unplayable because of skill lag. That’s not the fault of zergs, of course, but ANets unwillingness to put in resources to solve that particular problem.

Pretty much this. A zerg creates lag which means smaller groups that would have been able to kill them once upon a time (without lag) is pretty much impotent when it comes to combating them… no stability and all that matters is the amount of people auto-attacking, of which the zerg has more…

Its an infrastructure problem that makes the games meta sway even more to its lowest form of which is keeping the entire maps forces from certain servers on a single commander in order to win. It simply isnt a good format.

all i have to say is the bigger the zerg the more bags i get. the guild im in only runs a 30 man raid and we just farm the 60+ enemy zergs all night.

Mushin Tips.1623:

all i have to say is the bigger the zerg the more bags i get. the guild im in only runs a 30 man raid and we just farm the 60+ enemy zergs all night.

Without lag farming the zerg is fun indeed, with lag then it turns into autoattack spam which is quite simply terrible. Lag makes any counter to a serverblob nigh on impossible which gives even more incentive for servers to blob up.

if you are running a 30 man against 60-to full q there really isnt that much lag, at least for me (my pc is pretty basic). its the 3 way fights that are the main reason for skill imo. during our raid last night i dont think anyone on my side was simply spamming 1.

Aneu.1748:

Mushin Tips.1623:

all i have to say is the bigger the zerg the more bags i get. the guild im in only runs a 30 man raid and we just farm the 60+ enemy zergs all night.

Without lag farming the zerg is fun indeed, with lag then it turns into autoattack spam which is quite simply terrible. Lag makes any counter to a serverblob nigh on impossible which gives even more incentive for servers to blob up.

If the current strategy is to run around with enough players to cause lag and you set up your team composition to have a better auto-attack, then shouldn’t that be considered exploiting? After all, that’s not how the game is meant to be played.

The only real problem is that the game is not designed to handle it at a certain point, causing skill lag for all players involved. As long as people can use their skills, there is no problem with large scale fights.

Skill lag is my main one.

While myself I prefer smaller groups (8 to15 max) I don’t mind if people like zerging – at the end of the day everyone should play how they wish.

However, I think the problem lies in Anet catering only for this kind of fight – rewards are higher, but at the same time the tech can’t keep up. So not only is more profitable (loot, WXP, yada yada) but also can become unplayable due to lag. Anet keep on talking how they love 100 vs 100… put less numbers than that inside SM and the game becomes completely unplayable.

As long as it’s not against much smaller groups. Zerg vs zerg can be fun, small groups vs small groups way more.

Mushin Tips.1623:

all i have to say is the bigger the zerg the more bags i get. the guild im in only runs a 30 man raid and we just farm the 60+ enemy zergs all night.

30 man is a zerg.

Lag is annoying yes, but the only actual problem with zerging is when you can’t zerg yourself.

I don’t mean any kind of preference, but rather when one side has 30+ people on each map and your side doesn’t have 30 people TOTAL… then it’s a no fun zone. There’s just no way to overcome that big of a gap.

No one cares if it’s an even fight, only when it’s an odd one.

Niim.9260:

Mushin Tips.1623:

all i have to say is the bigger the zerg the more bags i get. the guild im in only runs a 30 man raid and we just farm the 60+ enemy zergs all night.

30 man is a zerg.

not saying it isnt a zerg. just saying that is possible to take out full q blobs with less than half their numbers.

There is no fun in zerging IMHO because it involves little skill, I’m not saying that people in a Zerg have no skill but the fight becomes that chaotic that targeting is non existent and you just end up tabbing and spamming. Not only that but blobs attract blobs and also causes skill delay, It’s just not my idea of fun.

I prefer small group fights or solo roaming/scouting.

TheAmpca.1753:

So what I am understanding from your post is that you have not experienced coordinated team play seeing as you say it doesn’t exist and how you fail to bring up points showing how the game rewards mindless fighting. However, you have to realize just because you have not experienced high quality coordination does not mean it doesn’t exist. GW2 offers quite a bit in the way of coordination. From CC timing to positioning to healing timing to combo fields to veil coordination, you can do quite a bit in the game. However, if the player base fails to use it for team coordination that’s a different story and there is no problem with the game.

Anyways if you think that the combat mechanics are interesting enough you shouldn’t just try to downplay zerg fighting and saying “oh this is boring i don’t like it let’s get rid of it” and instead look on how it can be improved. Suggestions on what kinds of mechanics would make fighting more interesting is a much better way to make the game better and was the real purpose of this thread.

Starting from the bold is where I disagree.

I think it IS a problem with the game, because the game fails to promote this type of gameplay.

So back more towards the OP; ppl want Anet to discourage “zerging” in its truest sense, because what the majority of actual game play becomes is mind numbing. People want to experience that high level of team coordination, but until it is promoted by the game they will not get to. This is a result of most people latching onto the actual (whether intended or not) promoted style of play which is zerging, server blobs, etc.

One major issue is definitely the skill lag. Coordinated groups had to get bigger to counter the server blobs, most shoot for around 25-30 range and it is proven that this amount is sufficient to take out the “blob.” The problem is when the blob becomes so big that it causes server lag. Once again, the blob is benefiting from the game and not the coordinated group. Because server lag renders any coordination useless except for point and shoot with the ‘1’ key, which will always result in the group with higher numbers winning.

rmBossa.4621:

TheAmpca.1753:

So what I am understanding from your post is that you have not experienced coordinated team play seeing as you say it doesn’t exist and how you fail to bring up points showing how the game rewards mindless fighting. However, you have to realize just because you have not experienced high quality coordination does not mean it doesn’t exist. GW2 offers quite a bit in the way of coordination. From CC timing to positioning to healing timing to combo fields to veil coordination, you can do quite a bit in the game. However, if the player base fails to use it for team coordination that’s a different story and there is no problem with the game.

Anyways if you think that the combat mechanics are interesting enough you shouldn’t just try to downplay zerg fighting and saying “oh this is boring i don’t like it let’s get rid of it” and instead look on how it can be improved. Suggestions on what kinds of mechanics would make fighting more interesting is a much better way to make the game better and was the real purpose of this thread.

Starting from the bold is where I disagree.

I think it IS a problem with the game, because the game fails to promote this type of gameplay.

So back more towards the OP; ppl want Anet to discourage “zerging” in its truest sense, because what the majority of actual game play becomes is mind numbing. People want to experience that high level of team coordination, but until it is promoted by the game they will not get to. This is a result of most people latching onto the actual (whether intended or not) promoted style of play which is zerging, server blobs, etc.

One major issue is definitely the skill lag. Coordinated groups had to get bigger to counter the server blobs, most shoot for around 25-30 range and it is proven that this amount is sufficient to take out the “blob.” The problem is when the blob becomes so big that it causes server lag. Once again, the blob is benefiting from the game and not the coordinated group. Because server lag renders any coordination useless except for point and shoot with the ‘1’ key, which will always result in the group with higher numbers winning.

Gw2, the only game where people go “I hate skill lag so lets get rid of zerging” instead of “I hate skill lag so lets get rid of skill lag”

TheGreatA.4192:

As long as people can use their skills, there is no problem with large scale fights.

This man has it right on.

I like intelligent play. I like it when skill matters.

But I get more loot, WXP, etc (and the lowest repair bills) when all I do is run with the biggest zerg ball on the map.

That’s what’s wrong with zergs: they reward population over skill.

TheAmpca.1753:

rmBossa.4621:

TheAmpca.1753:

So what I am understanding from your post is that you have not experienced coordinated team play seeing as you say it doesn’t exist and how you fail to bring up points showing how the game rewards mindless fighting. However, you have to realize just because you have not experienced high quality coordination does not mean it doesn’t exist. GW2 offers quite a bit in the way of coordination. From CC timing to positioning to healing timing to combo fields to veil coordination, you can do quite a bit in the game. However, if the player base fails to use it for team coordination that’s a different story and there is no problem with the game.

Anyways if you think that the combat mechanics are interesting enough you shouldn’t just try to downplay zerg fighting and saying “oh this is boring i don’t like it let’s get rid of it” and instead look on how it can be improved. Suggestions on what kinds of mechanics would make fighting more interesting is a much better way to make the game better and was the real purpose of this thread.

Starting from the bold is where I disagree.

I think it IS a problem with the game, because the game fails to promote this type of gameplay.

So back more towards the OP; ppl want Anet to discourage “zerging” in its truest sense, because what the majority of actual game play becomes is mind numbing. People want to experience that high level of team coordination, but until it is promoted by the game they will not get to. This is a result of most people latching onto the actual (whether intended or not) promoted style of play which is zerging, server blobs, etc.

One major issue is definitely the skill lag. Coordinated groups had to get bigger to counter the server blobs, most shoot for around 25-30 range and it is proven that this amount is sufficient to take out the “blob.” The problem is when the blob becomes so big that it causes server lag. Once again, the blob is benefiting from the game and not the coordinated group. Because server lag renders any coordination useless except for point and shoot with the ‘1’ key, which will always result in the group with higher numbers winning.

Gw2, the only game where people go “I hate skill lag so lets get rid of zerging” instead of “I hate skill lag so lets get rid of skill lag”

TheGreatA.4192:

As long as people can use their skills, there is no problem with large scale fights.

This man has it right on.

I was implying that skill lag was also a major issue, and that it should be fixed itself. It contributes to why people want less zergs, if they literally cant fix it then promoting smaller groups is the next best thing (I would argue better)

TheAmpca.1753:

Ah I see what you mean. However, you have to take into account that winning an open field fight wont make your server win. It CAN make your server do better if it is say an open field fight in a keep but there Arrow Carts and such can be a great numbers equalizer.

What I see the problem is, is that sticking in a ball will provide superior individual loot for players and wont really hurt the server because PPT is quite meaningless. I think an appropriate response to this would be to increase rewards for having superior PPT since a mass of people at one spot can only contest one position and thus provide inferior PPT control.

It’s down to risk vs reward with the majority of zerg play. A player has little reason to improve their play while in a zerg blob as the rewards are high and the risk is very low.

Your example of PPT being meaningless is flawed. The cause of inferior PPT does not correlate to zerg play. Not all zergs are created equal, some do well others do not.

You also overlook risk vs reward for distance and travel across and within maps which promotes blobbing. There is low risk to lose PPT when a 60+ blob can port across single/multiple maps to counter an in map flank or cross map pressure.

If you are in a T1 server all of the above should be very very noticeable, and in no way should zerg blobbing be promoted or encouraged.

I find there very little skill zerging. Pugs on ts can easily wipe most guild groups. Coordinated organized zerging steps… Stack blast fire fields, run towards enemy vail. Turn one way or the other Vail again, necros go plague spam aoe Blind. Guardian’s use group stability everyone else spam aoe, run thru them stop blast water fields. Turn around hit the head of group rince repeat. Stay on commander. Not hard at all