Guild Wars 2

Well, I am not currently in one of these elite guilds … but was in DAoC and the game underwent similar changes a number of times.

Just looking up NS videos on Youtube, what I see is a couple of dueling hammer trains … seems like a bunch of guard and warriors with a few necros thrown in, which makes perfect sense given you would want tons of CC and some guards because aegis does better than healing in this game.

Now, from my DAoC experience, there are several ways to deal with being outnumbered. One is the invincible assist train (in our case it was just melee burst with a couple high cc, healers defended as all hell making the train impossible to kill or cc). Another is kite and crash, you move back, forcing a zerg to overextend, then crash into them once they are too spread to properly support each other. Yet another is just to set up a death zone, and whoever crosses the line gets instagibbed, zergs tend to be too uncoordinated to rush 60 at once so you can kill off a fair few, scare them back and then push just a little so they can’t rez.

So yes, the hammer warriors may not be meta anymore, but they are likely just going to roll engis/necros/elementalists/ranger for mad AoE, incredible ranged burst or great cc of their own and kite. Personally I really hope the new borderlands are more open because the biggest issue to me is the lack of space on the WvW maps.

On an unrelated note the NS leader would be much more effective if he simply gave clear orders and stopped frantically spamming coms. You clear coms, have everyone muted except your leader and a couple deputies … and no one should ever be yelling because it is an inefficient way to convey information.

xDudisx.5914:

Pixelninja.6971:

xDudisx.5914:

The stab change is great. Guardians and warriors are still usefull.

Working as intended.

Yeah, right. Warriors are still good for Banners, to rez the Driver when he gets pin-sniped. Great gameplay, i can’t wait to get on and play my Banner-bot. \s

Why should i play Warrior, when i can play my Necro and melt faces. I can’t remember the last time i was hit by a Hammer-stun, seriously.

Still a usefull class for removing/converting conditions, aoe healing shouts, aoe fury, vigor, swiftness and might. Aoe ressing banner.

Hammer stun was almost useless before the stab change because everyone had almost perma stab.

If you want to play necro then just play necro.

Are you talking about in the context of guild raid vs blob? Cause your average pug could care less about running stab or even having a build setup for WvW. So you’re statement isn’t true at all.

The only people running WvW builds were the ones dedicated to having a role in raid groups whether they were small or large. So hammer stun certainly wasn’t useless and in fact worked incredibly well vs unorganized blobs.

Seriously, those supporting the new stab talk like they were in an organized group. I assure you talking and shouting out commands in map or team chat and running your PvE build doesn’t comes even close to the effort and dedication an actual WvW guild goes through to rip your unorganized shamble of a zerg to shreds.

blakdoxa.7520:

xDudisx.5914:

Pixelninja.6971:

xDudisx.5914:

The stab change is great. Guardians and warriors are still usefull.

Working as intended.

Yeah, right. Warriors are still good for Banners, to rez the Driver when he gets pin-sniped. Great gameplay, i can’t wait to get on and play my Banner-bot. \s

Why should i play Warrior, when i can play my Necro and melt faces. I can’t remember the last time i was hit by a Hammer-stun, seriously.

Still a usefull class for removing/converting conditions, aoe healing shouts, aoe fury, vigor, swiftness and might. Aoe ressing banner.

Hammer stun was almost useless before the stab change because everyone had almost perma stab.

If you want to play necro then just play necro.

Are you talking about in the context of guild raid vs blob? Cause your average pug could care less about running stab or even having a build setup for WvW. So you’re statement isn’t true at all.

The only people running WvW builds were the ones dedicated to having a role in raid groups whether they were small or large. So hammer stun certainly wasn’t useless and in fact worked incredibly well vs unorganized blobs.

Seriously, those supporting the new stab talk like they were in an organized group. I assure you talking and shouting out commands in map or team chat and running your PvE build doesn’t comes even close to the effort and dedication an actual WvW guild goes through to rip your unorganized shamble of a zerg to shreds.

I was talking about any fight where the enemy team has 2 guardian per party rotating Stand your Ground and having the extra stab from virtue. As you said the hammer stun worked well against unorganized group. A lot of things work well agaist unorganized groups, that should not even be consider for balance purposes.

You are making assumptions about players that you don’t even know…

When you say that most players don’t even have a wvw build, how can you prove that? I think pretty much everyone has an idea of what to run in a zerg. Similar to spvp, a lot of players know the meta builds. Those builds are simple and easily accessible for anyone that search a little bit. Even metabattle has a solid base.

The new stability is great to make CC more usefull and reduce a little bit the stack hammertrain blob mentality.

Avit.3165:

Arantheal.7396:

blakdoxa.7520:

Arantheal.7396:

I don’t see why loosing a couple of gvg players would be an impact on the game.
They ate up slots on the maps, unless they were exclusively meeting in OS, so their home-servers can actually be happy to get more ppt willing players.
And since the meta shifted and they refuse to adapt, their outdated knowledge / skills are also not a big loss for the community-hivemind as well.
There was literally nothing of value lost.

New people will emerge to continue abusing wvw for a game-mode that was never planned / supported in that manner, so you most likely don’t have to wait more than 2-3 weeks to turn on twitch for new streamers to entertain you, or annoy your current map-population by spectating directly and blocking slots on it.
Nothing really has changed.

I don’t think you understand where your WvW community is at. It’s not entirely in-game and it’s not the pugs you were running with mindlessly following the pugmander. Many servers have their on TS servers, their own server community sites and there’s even a generally WvW site that many dedicated WvW’ers go to check out the match up threads.

Do you participate in any of these? or are you just one of those people who say they are part of WvW community just cause they play in WvW, cause you’re missing out.

TS and Forum moderator for my Server’s WvW community. Our guilds are mainly PPT focused. We also have guilds that engage in GvG’s to off-times in OS, still they generally raid in favor for PPT as well. Our community is open and tolerant to everybody and simply focuses on getting along and supporting each other.
We had a guy in past who tried to recruit top-players from all these guilds to raise his very own GvG project, which resulted in nothing but drama, and him eventually transferring away. After that the community just continued to prosper and grow even larger.
So yea, seeing GvG-only guilds leaving the game and the GvG scene getting smaller and smaller is good news for the actual majority of WvW players.

edit: GvG’s in general would be a fun game-mode, but as it is currently, it’s not supported by a-net and the way the current GvG communit y organizes itself leeches on a game-mode that was simply not intended for this kind of play, which also disrupts the WvW experience of those who play WvW for its intended purpose: PPT.
So unless A-net provides a actual solution for the current situation with HoT or future expansions, my opinion stays as described above.

Are you from FSP [TT] guild?

nope, [AT] from RoS.

xDudisx.5914:

blakdoxa.7520:

xDudisx.5914:

Pixelninja.6971:

xDudisx.5914:

The stab change is great. Guardians and warriors are still usefull.

Working as intended.

Yeah, right. Warriors are still good for Banners, to rez the Driver when he gets pin-sniped. Great gameplay, i can’t wait to get on and play my Banner-bot. \s

Why should i play Warrior, when i can play my Necro and melt faces. I can’t remember the last time i was hit by a Hammer-stun, seriously.

Still a usefull class for removing/converting conditions, aoe healing shouts, aoe fury, vigor, swiftness and might. Aoe ressing banner.

Hammer stun was almost useless before the stab change because everyone had almost perma stab.

If you want to play necro then just play necro.

Are you talking about in the context of guild raid vs blob? Cause your average pug could care less about running stab or even having a build setup for WvW. So you’re statement isn’t true at all.

The only people running WvW builds were the ones dedicated to having a role in raid groups whether they were small or large. So hammer stun certainly wasn’t useless and in fact worked incredibly well vs unorganized blobs.

Seriously, those supporting the new stab talk like they were in an organized group. I assure you talking and shouting out commands in map or team chat and running your PvE build doesn’t comes even close to the effort and dedication an actual WvW guild goes through to rip your unorganized shamble of a zerg to shreds.

I was talking about any fight where the enemy team has 2 guardian per party rotating Stand your Ground and having the extra stab from virtue. As you said the hammer stun worked well against unorganized group. A lot of things work well agaist unorganized groups, that should not even be consider for balance purposes.

You are making assumptions about players that you don’t even know…

When you say that most players don’t even have a wvw build, how can you prove that? I think pretty much everyone has an idea of what to run in a zerg. Similar to spvp, a lot of players know the meta builds. Those builds are simple and easily accessible for anyone that search a little bit. Even metabattle has a solid base.

The new stability is great to make CC more usefull and reduce a little bit the stack hammertrain blob mentality.

Many, many uplevels play WvW. They are also easy to spot by their plain looking gear. Due to the trait system it’s very likely they have few or no traits or even the necessary skills. People with 80s would typically play their 80s in WvW (the exception being eotm but not relevant) knowing that going into WvW unprepared means you’re a rally bot. This is especially prevalent for new players that have little idea what’s going on and just follow the pugmander.
Literally, a pug would have to join a serious WvW guild to understand what’s even going and eventually learn how to setup for a role in WvW play.

FYI, this stab changes is based entirely around the sPvP scene (small scale) so WvW isn’t considered anyways. WvW natual state is unbalanced or lopsided but we the players still try to go against the odds, don’t we? Unfortunately, the old stab gave organized player groups a fighting chance. Now the meta is all about landing the stuns and dropping nukes. Who’s ever foolish enough to push get wrecked so now we play this fishing-for-wipes game.

blakdoxa.7520:

xDudisx.5914:

blakdoxa.7520:

xDudisx.5914:

Pixelninja.6971:

xDudisx.5914:

The stab change is great. Guardians and warriors are still usefull.

Working as intended.

Yeah, right. Warriors are still good for Banners, to rez the Driver when he gets pin-sniped. Great gameplay, i can’t wait to get on and play my Banner-bot. \s

Why should i play Warrior, when i can play my Necro and melt faces. I can’t remember the last time i was hit by a Hammer-stun, seriously.

Still a usefull class for removing/converting conditions, aoe healing shouts, aoe fury, vigor, swiftness and might. Aoe ressing banner.

Hammer stun was almost useless before the stab change because everyone had almost perma stab.

If you want to play necro then just play necro.

Are you talking about in the context of guild raid vs blob? Cause your average pug could care less about running stab or even having a build setup for WvW. So you’re statement isn’t true at all.

The only people running WvW builds were the ones dedicated to having a role in raid groups whether they were small or large. So hammer stun certainly wasn’t useless and in fact worked incredibly well vs unorganized blobs.

Seriously, those supporting the new stab talk like they were in an organized group. I assure you talking and shouting out commands in map or team chat and running your PvE build doesn’t comes even close to the effort and dedication an actual WvW guild goes through to rip your unorganized shamble of a zerg to shreds.

I was talking about any fight where the enemy team has 2 guardian per party rotating Stand your Ground and having the extra stab from virtue. As you said the hammer stun worked well against unorganized group. A lot of things work well agaist unorganized groups, that should not even be consider for balance purposes.

You are making assumptions about players that you don’t even know…

When you say that most players don’t even have a wvw build, how can you prove that? I think pretty much everyone has an idea of what to run in a zerg. Similar to spvp, a lot of players know the meta builds. Those builds are simple and easily accessible for anyone that search a little bit. Even metabattle has a solid base.

The new stability is great to make CC more usefull and reduce a little bit the stack hammertrain blob mentality.

Many, many uplevels play WvW. They are also easy to spot by their plain looking gear. Due to the trait system it’s very likely they have few or no traits or even the necessary skills. People with 80s would typically play their 80s in WvW (the exception being eotm but not relevant) knowing that going into WvW unprepared means you’re a rally bot. This is especially prevalent for new players that have little idea what’s going on and just follow the pugmander.
Literally, a pug would have to join a serious WvW guild to understand what’s even going and eventually learn how to setup for a role in WvW play.

FYI, this stab changes is based entirely around the sPvP scene (small scale) so WvW isn’t considered anyways. WvW natual state is unbalanced or lopsided but we the players still try to go against the odds, don’t we? Unfortunately, the old stab gave organized player groups a fighting chance. Now the meta is all about landing the stuns and dropping nukes. Who’s ever foolish enough to push get wrecked so now we play this fishing-for-wipes game.

Are you kidding? For spvp the stab change is almost irrelevant. Most spvp fights consists of 1v1 or 2v2. Do you really thing players will waste 5+ CC to remove stab instead of just wait a few seconds and actually land the CC? Also in spvp some builds run 0 stab and the ones that have stab are on much higher cooldown/less abundant than in wvw where everyone has 2 shotu guardians giving aoe stab.

The only place where the new stab makes a difference is in a blob where you have too much aoe cc to remove the stacks.

xDudisx.5914:

blakdoxa.7520:

xDudisx.5914:

blakdoxa.7520:

xDudisx.5914:

Pixelninja.6971:

xDudisx.5914:

The stab change is great. Guardians and warriors are still usefull.

Working as intended.

Yeah, right. Warriors are still good for Banners, to rez the Driver when he gets pin-sniped. Great gameplay, i can’t wait to get on and play my Banner-bot. \s

Why should i play Warrior, when i can play my Necro and melt faces. I can’t remember the last time i was hit by a Hammer-stun, seriously.

Still a usefull class for removing/converting conditions, aoe healing shouts, aoe fury, vigor, swiftness and might. Aoe ressing banner.

Hammer stun was almost useless before the stab change because everyone had almost perma stab.

If you want to play necro then just play necro.

Are you talking about in the context of guild raid vs blob? Cause your average pug could care less about running stab or even having a build setup for WvW. So you’re statement isn’t true at all.

The only people running WvW builds were the ones dedicated to having a role in raid groups whether they were small or large. So hammer stun certainly wasn’t useless and in fact worked incredibly well vs unorganized blobs.

Seriously, those supporting the new stab talk like they were in an organized group. I assure you talking and shouting out commands in map or team chat and running your PvE build doesn’t comes even close to the effort and dedication an actual WvW guild goes through to rip your unorganized shamble of a zerg to shreds.

I was talking about any fight where the enemy team has 2 guardian per party rotating Stand your Ground and having the extra stab from virtue. As you said the hammer stun worked well against unorganized group. A lot of things work well agaist unorganized groups, that should not even be consider for balance purposes.

You are making assumptions about players that you don’t even know…

When you say that most players don’t even have a wvw build, how can you prove that? I think pretty much everyone has an idea of what to run in a zerg. Similar to spvp, a lot of players know the meta builds. Those builds are simple and easily accessible for anyone that search a little bit. Even metabattle has a solid base.

The new stability is great to make CC more usefull and reduce a little bit the stack hammertrain blob mentality.

Many, many uplevels play WvW. They are also easy to spot by their plain looking gear. Due to the trait system it’s very likely they have few or no traits or even the necessary skills. People with 80s would typically play their 80s in WvW (the exception being eotm but not relevant) knowing that going into WvW unprepared means you’re a rally bot. This is especially prevalent for new players that have little idea what’s going on and just follow the pugmander.
Literally, a pug would have to join a serious WvW guild to understand what’s even going and eventually learn how to setup for a role in WvW play.

FYI, this stab changes is based entirely around the sPvP scene (small scale) so WvW isn’t considered anyways. WvW natual state is unbalanced or lopsided but we the players still try to go against the odds, don’t we? Unfortunately, the old stab gave organized player groups a fighting chance. Now the meta is all about landing the stuns and dropping nukes. Who’s ever foolish enough to push get wrecked so now we play this fishing-for-wipes game.

Are you kidding? For spvp the stab change is almost irrelevant. Most spvp fights consists of 1v1 or 2v2. Do you really thing players will waste 5+ CC to remove stab instead of just wait a few seconds and actually land the CC? Also in spvp some builds run 0 stab and the ones that have stab are on much higher cooldown/less abundant than in wvw where everyone has 2 shotu guardians giving aoe stab.

The only place where the new stab makes a difference is in a blob where you have too much aoe cc to remove the stacks.

For WvW, stab is no longer a reliable counter to CC spam. This is the problem as CC spamming isn’t going anywhere. If the old stab was a problem before then all anet has done is exchange one problem for another. It’s pretty plain it’s an issue that you even noted in your post (too much aoe cc) even though it’s directly proportional to how many eles and necros you have running in your blob. Still a blob that’s stacked with CC will just overwhelm with sheer force given a numbers advantage.

On a little tangent here, it’s quite possible eles will be nerfed down the road due to their pool of cc abilities.Also it is highly unlikely that a pug blob is going to run any sort of composition… I really don’t expect people to understand much about WvW builds and strategy till they get with an actual WvW guild.

im just saying, an organized group cant deal with stability changes but a pug zerg can?

I haven’t seen anything other then LB/hammer on my server. I did see some rifles on the opposing servers though. So clearly your dipping into hyperbole here. But claiming they “are not usefull” strikes me as plain old, irrational.

Belenwyn.8674:

Peterson.8345:

Not true at all mate. Stability was never as powerful as many think. There are many ways how to control enemy who has stability most notably via condition control (immob chill etc)… stability was never mindless or permanent – at least not after the boon duration nerf ages ago where the guards were no longer able to get over 75% boon duration resulting in ridiculously long stabilities…

Not anymore – not for a long time now…

Soon resistance will enter the stage. A boon that negates all conditions for a certain time. In future there is a very reduced possibility to control people with chill, immobilize, blind, fear etc. Depending on how great the accessibility is resistance will be as important/powerful as stability. Imagine a whole 20/30 man guild with 12 s stability (old form) and 12 s resistance. This would be too OP.

I think they changed stability to balance it against resistance.

I think resistance played a factor in this, but wouldn’t have been better to severely limit the access to resistance or just not have it? It’s a softer counter to condies when there’s classes with good condie removal.

If resistance was a boon mostly self-applied to perhaps a few ranged classes (mesmer, ranger, engy) and then a small bit to Guardians (3 second group resist), then you wouldn’t need this big stability change.

As it is now, I don’t see how zerg busting works with such limited movement. Even if you go backline heavy, the meta will still further shift towards blobbing.

And I don’t see 3 guards really helping zergbusting when the amount of CCs the blob can spit out is likely still too much.

…Actual GvG fights aren’t affected, they were taking place in OS officially.

Unofficial fights and zerg-busting are affected to a degree, but I am going to go on a limb here and say said guilds leaving the game are probably going to come back with HoT. There is just so much going on it would be wrong not to.

What I actually think the stability change is for, aside from putting a pretty big dent in the train-meta, is to help balance what HoT will throw at us. Pretty sure it has been talked about just how blob-unfriendly the new Borderlands (at least Desert) will be between all the chokes and vertical movement.

It will be too tough to call, calm down for now. Also really, really wish I can get into the next wave of HoT testing.

Sykper.6583:

…Actual GvG fights aren’t affected, they were taking place in OS officially.

Unofficial fights and zerg-busting are affected to a degree, but I am going to go on a limb here and say said guilds leaving the game are probably going to come back with HoT. There is just so much going on it would be wrong not to.

What I actually think the stability change is for, aside from putting a pretty big dent in the train-meta, is to help balance what HoT will throw at us. Pretty sure it has been talked about just how blob-unfriendly the new Borderlands (at least Desert) will be between all the chokes and vertical movement.

It will be too tough to call, calm down for now. Also really, really wish I can get into the next wave of HoT testing.

i have to agree- GvGs have not been affected THAT much by the stab change. Here’s a link to a scrimmage (4-1 CORE, 3 rounds recorded)I did earlier today: https://youtu.be/yeHkRMcnoYc

Blue tag – Driver
Yellow Tags- Eles
Purple Tags – Backline
Red tag – Backup driver / Secure stomp

Zergbusting however, is much harder than it used to be. You are punished for your mistakes almost instantly. Ranged pressure is much more important than it was, as your frontline can only really be committed to secure kills, not so much face-tanking any more.

The stability changes discourage 15-25 man skill group play in wvw while they encourage uncoordinated zerg blobbing at a range. Wvw is now more complicated and less fun. These changes are senseless and detrimental to the game.

Sixes.5824:

Now, from my DAoC experience, there are several ways to deal with being outnumbered. One is the invincible assist train (in our case it was just melee burst with a couple high cc, healers defended as all hell making the train impossible to kill or cc). Another is kite and crash, you move back, forcing a zerg to overextend, then crash into them once they are too spread to properly support each other. Yet another is just to set up a death zone, and whoever crosses the line gets instagibbed, zergs tend to be too uncoordinated to rush 60 at once so you can kill off a fair few, scare them back and then push just a little so they can’t rez.

The problem is that u can’t attack blob with meele. U can;t kite blob aswell, cos if u try this they will rush u with their numbers and crush with tons of ccs. U probably didn;t play for a looooong time cos blobs are already organised at ts and they don’t blindly rush into aoe storm like they used to. So any other idea of handling blob with new stabil?

Sykper.6583:

…Actual GvG fights aren’t affected, they were taking place in OS officially.

Unofficial fights and zerg-busting are affected to a degree, but I am going to go on a limb here and say said guilds leaving the game are probably going to come back with HoT. There is just so much going on it would be wrong not to.

What I actually think the stability change is for, aside from putting a pretty big dent in the train-meta, is to help balance what HoT will throw at us. Pretty sure it has been talked about just how blob-unfriendly the new Borderlands (at least Desert) will be between all the chokes and vertical movement.

It will be too tough to call, calm down for now. Also really, really wish I can get into the next wave of HoT testing.

Do u really think ppl wouldn’t blob? xD With actuall stabil u blob u win simple. Also yes, the change is to balance game for HoT – tbh it is to make revenant more op for first days to make ppl buy expansion. It is also made to nerf guild znd zergs fights against blobs. It is all that is behinde this change – it is also the most logical way to think about it. Or maybe someone else know other reason to change something that worked and wasn’t changed( after huge QQ from blobers at forums) for last 3 years( including beta)?

Kasteros.9847:

The problem is that u can’t attack blob with meele. U can;t kite blob aswell, cos if u try this they will rush u with their numbers and crush with tons of ccs. U probably didn;t play for a looooong time cos blobs are already organised at ts and they don’t blindly rush into aoe storm like they used to. So any other idea of handling blob with new stabil?

Well having recently (a few weeks ago) been in quite a successful Blob v Blob fight where we kited back with only limited coordination (because we were also a blob lol), it seemed like good guard walls, freeze grenades, supply crates etc played a huge role. We were able to disengage while inflicting substantial damage, despite a coordinated push on the other side. I play on engi, my nades were doing an incredible job, especially the chill on their front line as they charged, or a supply crate (on top of the stun and net turret it likely creates targeting issues for the blob). I wouldn’t advise melee, but there are better ways of kiting than the current GWEN comps. Given the very limited instant cc at 1500 range, a good group should be able to kite, though I do hope the new borderlands have a little more open space to do it in.

As for guild versus guild, I think yank and gank with magnets or scorpion wire from stealth would do pretty well. It’s very difficult to predict given the stealth until pull and in 20v20 starting the round with 4 instant kills might just win it outright.

Edit:
Another thing to consider for guilds returning in HoT is whether or not they implement some better guild content. If there is any form of Guild v Guild or even just maps that lend themselves better to roaming 20 man groups, it could outweigh the stability change.

Sixes.5824:

Kasteros.9847:

The problem is that u can’t attack blob with meele. U can;t kite blob aswell, cos if u try this they will rush u with their numbers and crush with tons of ccs. U probably didn;t play for a looooong time cos blobs are already organised at ts and they don’t blindly rush into aoe storm like they used to. So any other idea of handling blob with new stabil?

Well having recently (a few weeks ago) been in quite a successful Blob v Blob fight where we kited back with only limited coordination (because we were also a blob lol), it seemed like good guard walls, freeze grenades, supply crates etc played a huge role. We were able to disengage while inflicting substantial damage, despite a coordinated push on the other side. I play on engi, my nades were doing an incredible job, especially the chill on their front line as they charged, or a supply crate (on top of the stun and net turret it likely creates targeting issues for the blob). I wouldn’t advise melee, but there are better ways of kiting than the current GWEN comps. Given the very limited instant cc at 1500 range, a good group should be able to kite, though I do hope the new borderlands have a little more open space to do it in.

As for guild versus guild, I think yank and gank with magnets or scorpion wire from stealth would do pretty well. It’s very difficult to predict given the stealth until pull and in 20v20 starting the round with 4 instant kills might just win it outright.

Edit:
Another thing to consider for guilds returning in HoT is whether or not they implement some better guild content. If there is any form of Guild v Guild or even just maps that lend themselves better to roaming 20 man groups, it could outweigh the stability change.

I wrote about ZERG VS BLOB man not blob vs blob fs… Read whole comment and then type And as i wrote eralier, almost nothing happened to guild vs guilds, since u don’t have tons of ccs and 5 stacks of stabillity is enough, u just need to kite a bit more – only change. As for guilds coming during HoT, actually u have lot of games that FOCUS on GvG and supprot this gamemode, not like gw2. I was relaly excited about gvg announcement same goes for half of gvg community if not whole, but then they ruined it by implementing npcs, whole pve crap and 5 v 5…GUILDS HAVE 40 PPL ROSTER ANET PLS.

victory goes to the side with the bigger numbers. This is my experience with wvw this week. Blob up, Yarr!

No longer can the smaller team use stab with impunity, now groups use cc with impunity.

Yeap, before ppl were spamming stab – which wasn;t such bad cos u could get it off with necros etc. Now much more abuse ccs and blob up em to win.

Alex Caputo.7863:

Last week I saw about 25 NightShift [NS] (who are top 3 gvg/fight guilds on NA) get completely demolished by about 50-60 HG. What would happen before the stab changes was that NS would completely steamroll HG due to their superior skill based play, players, builds, commanding, etc. I saw them get one pushed and demolished by HG due to the blow up of CC which is impossible to counter in smaller numbers. What Anet has done is encouraged mindless blob play instead of coordinated strategy amongst players. I found this to be extremely sad and a killer to the game in itself. The GvG scene is all but dead, since now the meta seems to be extreme CC with no frontline, making half the classes NOT EVEN WORTH PLAYING IN THIS GAME ANYMORE. As a result Ns, Syn and i believe Agg have quit the guild wars 2, making this a sad example of what happens when you mess with an already stable system. Losing these experienced guilds and players is a hardstrike on the WvW community. Anet please find it in your hearts to put the game back on track and set the stab changes to the way it was, encourage small man play to actually have a chance to beat superior numbers. Sincerely, all WvW players.

Hear hear.

I wouldn’t mind any changes as long as they don’t make experience and skill useless. Stability changes ruined skilled ZERG-BUSTERS – smallish groups of skilled players that dealt with big blobs. In Bronze, that is pretty much how most WvW guilds are. But no matter how much you push now, melee through all that red CC is impossible. New meta of pew pew at each other from a distance or just having a boring staring contest is NOT FUN.

I truly hope they revert the stab changes cause good playerbase that made up GvG/fight guilds will start leaving, and that will make for a much poorer game. And already makes WvW far less enjoyable.
Skill > numbers —> that’s how things should work-

Alex Caputo.7863:

, since now the meta seems to be extreme CC with no frontline, making half the classes NOT EVEN WORTH PLAYING IN THIS GAME ANYMORE.

So before the patch how many Engis did you have in your GvG Team? Or maybe ranger or thiefs?

Haralin.1473:

So before the patch how many Engis did you have in your GvG Team? Or maybe ranger or thiefs?

I have no idea where you have been playing sir, thiefs are very, very useful for gvg guilds. Every normal gvg guild has 6 classes in reasonable balance (every class bar rangers and engis). Having said that some guilds did experiment with these ‘unwanted classes’… but its the same with every game mode. There will be classes that are more viable and useful than other – thats just the way it is. Everybody knows reasons why some classes are more ‘accepted’ in wvw than other.

Similarly, some classes are more common in spvp than other classes – every time I look at pvp parties there are patterns there and some classes you encounter more often than others… its the mechanics of the class. So please do not try to use this argument, it is not relevant to the discussion.

hedix.1986:

Skill > numbers —> that’s how things should work-

Problem just is that most of players in guild really aren’t any better than players in blob so why the kitten you should win against bigger blob? Just because half of your players are guardians?

Junkpile.7439:

hedix.1986:

Skill > numbers —> that’s how things should work-

Problem just is that most of players in guild really aren’t any better than players in blob so why the kitten you should win against bigger blob? Just because half of your players are guardians?

like anyone is going to count your opinion in here since you’re an outcast from eotm which isn’t considered as proper WvW.

Oh nooo, you have to change your tactics now and think about what you’re doing!?

Yeah…

You can still frontline quite efficiently.
Stop thinking in the way you used to and try to innovate.

Junkpile.7439:

hedix.1986:

Skill > numbers —> that’s how things should work-

Problem just is that most of players in guild really aren’t any better than players in blob so why the kitten you should win against bigger blob? Just because half of your players are guardians?

The truth has been spoken.

Arantheal.7396:

blakdoxa.7520:

Arantheal.7396:

I don’t see why loosing a couple of gvg players would be an impact on the game.
They ate up slots on the maps, unless they were exclusively meeting in OS, so their home-servers can actually be happy to get more ppt willing players.
And since the meta shifted and they refuse to adapt, their outdated knowledge / skills are also not a big loss for the community-hivemind as well.
There was literally nothing of value lost.

New people will emerge to continue abusing wvw for a game-mode that was never planned / supported in that manner, so you most likely don’t have to wait more than 2-3 weeks to turn on twitch for new streamers to entertain you, or annoy your current map-population by spectating directly and blocking slots on it.
Nothing really has changed.

I don’t think you understand where your WvW community is at. It’s not entirely in-game and it’s not the pugs you were running with mindlessly following the pugmander. Many servers have their on TS servers, their own server community sites and there’s even a generally WvW site that many dedicated WvW’ers go to check out the match up threads.

Do you participate in any of these? or are you just one of those people who say they are part of WvW community just cause they play in WvW, cause you’re missing out.

TS and Forum moderator for my Server’s WvW community. Our guilds are mainly PPT focused. We also have guilds that engage in GvG’s to off-times in OS, still they generally raid in favor for PPT as well. Our community is open and tolerant to everybody and simply focuses on getting along and supporting each other.
We had a guy in past who tried to recruit top-players from all these guilds to raise his very own GvG project, which resulted in nothing but drama, and him eventually transferring away. After that the community just continued to prosper and grow even larger.
So yea, seeing GvG-only guilds leaving the game and the GvG scene getting smaller and smaller is good news for the actual majority of WvW players.

edit: GvG’s in general would be a fun game-mode, but as it is currently, it’s not supported by a-net and the way the current GvG communit y organizes itself leeches on a game-mode that was simply not intended for this kind of play, which also disrupts the WvW experience of those who play WvW for its intended purpose: PPT.
So unless A-net provides a actual solution for the current situation with HoT or future expansions, my opinion stays as described above.

What server is this?

Haralin.1473:

Alex Caputo.7863:

, since now the meta seems to be extreme CC with no frontline, making half the classes NOT EVEN WORTH PLAYING IN THIS GAME ANYMORE.

So before the patch how many Engis did you have in your GvG Team? Or maybe ranger or thiefs?

Guilds had 2-3 thiefs during gvgs. Rnagers are still useless in compare to other classes and as for engis, NO1 want to play them? Why? Cos u die instantly when enemy spot u It isn’t because guilds don’t want them, it is because players don’t want to play them

Junkpile.7439:

hedix.1986:

Skill > numbers —> that’s how things should work-

Problem just is that most of players in guild really aren’t any better than players in blob so why the kitten you should win against bigger blob? Just because half of your players are guardians?

Say what?! Come with ur guild against my guild, i bet that u will be dead in 1. push And yes, they are more skilled than pugs? Proof? Look how guild killed blobs with 3 times less players LOL u really don’t know a thing and talk here :P so man just kitten and sho sho to ur spvp Also u tell me that pugs avoid aoe? Listen to commander? Play specific numbers and builds to make group better? NOPE.

Vornollo.5182:

Oh nooo, you have to change your tactics now and think about what you’re doing!?

Yeah…

You can still frontline quite efficiently.
Stop thinking in the way you used to and try to innovate.

OK, show me how to frontline blob with current meta my master of WvW.

Lord Kuru.3685:

This. It’s significantly easier for a blob to stunlock smaller guild groups now. Losing blobs vs guild groups play will be a loss of a big part of WvW and will lead to lots of skilled groups quitting.

Whose to say that the blob players aren’t as “skilled” as your “skilled guilds?” People automatically assume that guild groups are supposed to be able to beat larger numbers of unguilded/ungrouped players. Not if many of those ungrouped players are just as good players, but apparently people are blind to that possibility…

Most blobs, pugs … are just guild players running outside of there guild raid times. Skilled still, but tend to play a little lazier than in guild raids.

Turk.5460:

Lord Kuru.3685:

This. It’s significantly easier for a blob to stunlock smaller guild groups now. Losing blobs vs guild groups play will be a loss of a big part of WvW and will lead to lots of skilled groups quitting.

Whose to say that the blob players aren’t as “skilled” as your “skilled guilds?” People automatically assume that guild groups are supposed to be able to beat larger numbers of unguilded/ungrouped players. Not if many of those ungrouped players are just as good players, but apparently people are blind to that possibility…

Yeah! expecially those all arrows, ppl who spam 1. skill or rangers attacking my wall of reflection when I blbo with comm at EB also as I saw many “skilled” blob ppl is running full ptv or nomad to just spam 1. skill and win by numbers while not dying. Man actually skileld blobs are running during restes since guilds don’t have raids then and when there is “fighting” commander instead of ppt guy…

Turk.5460:

Lord Kuru.3685:

This. It’s significantly easier for a blob to stunlock smaller guild groups now. Losing blobs vs guild groups play will be a loss of a big part of WvW and will lead to lots of skilled groups quitting.

Whose to say that the blob players aren’t as “skilled” as your “skilled guilds?” People automatically assume that guild groups are supposed to be able to beat larger numbers of unguilded/ungrouped players. Not if many of those ungrouped players are just as good players, but apparently people are blind to that possibility…

Some individuals in a blob may be skilled and I don’t think anybody will dispute that possibility, but group fights don’t hang only on individual skill. Team cohesion is important. Precision and communication can turn odds in your favor and skill groups tend to outclass open raids in this respect.

If anything, the stability changes made it clear just how much hard CC there is in this game and that the combat system really was not designed with large scale fights in mind. I’m actually curious to see how players will adjust (apart from boring pirate shipping).

I hear standing just out of range and staring each other down is fun ! I mean seriously wtf is this … red rover ?

Turk.5460:

Lord Kuru.3685:

This. It’s significantly easier for a blob to stunlock smaller guild groups now. Losing blobs vs guild groups play will be a loss of a big part of WvW and will lead to lots of skilled groups quitting.

Whose to say that the blob players aren’t as “skilled” as your “skilled guilds?” People automatically assume that guild groups are supposed to be able to beat larger numbers of unguilded/ungrouped players. Not if many of those ungrouped players are just as good players, but apparently people are blind to that possibility…

No one said guild groups are “supposed” to beat larger groups of pugs. But what Anet’s done is made it impossible in a lot of situations where it was possible before.

With population disparities as they are, this takes away a large part of the game for a lot of guilds. Not a good thing considering the game mode is already completely neglected.

If it were as easy as the blob nerds make it out to be there is no reason a blob should have ever lost, I mean all it take is hit stab and mash 1 right ? So with their superior numbers there is no reason they couldn’t pop stab and mash 1 followed by profit.

Personally, its not a case of finding a new tactic, its a case of making melee boring kittenters. Some people enjoy melee some enjoy ranged, both should be just as viable instead of doing some kitten patch they should have put some thought into balancing classes better over the last 3 years.

Every game mode in GW2 leaves certain classes as the red headed step child, its not just WvW, PvE, TPvP, it doesn’t matter nerfing stability is a lazy way to try and balance something they had ample time to correct.

Kasteros.9847:

Sykper.6583:

…Actual GvG fights aren’t affected, they were taking place in OS officially.

Unofficial fights and zerg-busting are affected to a degree, but I am going to go on a limb here and say said guilds leaving the game are probably going to come back with HoT. There is just so much going on it would be wrong not to.

What I actually think the stability change is for, aside from putting a pretty big dent in the train-meta, is to help balance what HoT will throw at us. Pretty sure it has been talked about just how blob-unfriendly the new Borderlands (at least Desert) will be between all the chokes and vertical movement.

It will be too tough to call, calm down for now. Also really, really wish I can get into the next wave of HoT testing.

Do u really think ppl wouldn’t blob? xD With actuall stabil u blob u win simple. Also yes, the change is to balance game for HoT – tbh it is to make revenant more op for first days to make ppl buy expansion. It is also made to nerf guild znd zergs fights against blobs. It is all that is behinde this change – it is also the most logical way to think about it. Or maybe someone else know other reason to change something that worked and wasn’t changed( after huge QQ from blobers at forums) for last 3 years( including beta)?

Oh of course people will blob, I probably should have rephrased. I never meant to say that the new BL would utterly remove blobs, superior numbers is and will always be an advantage in WvW.

What I hope for is that the borderlands map will deter blobbing as between the verticality and chokes we will start seeing blobs being punished harder for well, blobbing.

The revenant did not need to have stability changed for people to play it, it is an entirely new profession, people will still cry nerf about every little unknown thing about the profession without putting too much thought into why it was made that way. And it is super likely that at least some of those points they make are valid as no MMO has ever released a new class without some balancing issues.

I doubt it was to nerf guild v zerg, however I do have my own theories on that issue that are probably well-beyond this thread.

gennyt.3428:

If anything, the stability changes made it clear just how much hard CC there is in this game and that the combat system really was not designed with large scale fights in mind. I’m actually curious to see how players will adjust (apart from boring pirate shipping).

Actually, comparing back to DAoC (an amazing mass PvP game), DAoC had way more CC, but it had immunities and the zerg often lost because they would build up the opponents immunities very fast without capitalizing on it.

One thing that makes a huge difference is that this game has very little (if any) true AoE. It tended to keep zergs honest, because being all stacked on a leader made them implode if they got caught unaware and un-split.

Quite frankly I think we might all benefit from anything that splits up the blobs. I am really hoping for the new maps to have systems to encourage lots of small groups instead of large ones. A door opening similar to the dredge fractal could lead to hilarious situations.

there is no GvG in this game so stop smashing your face into an imaginary wall and blaming A-net

I don’t think it necessarily destroys GvG as it does zerg busting and small groups vs. large groups encounters. The larger groups consistently CC down the stability before duration is up almost instantly, leaving the smaller groups essentially stunlocked and dead before CDs are off. It’s had a pretty big impact on some servers that generally run a lot of smaller (20-30) groups vs. servers that generally map queue blobs (50-80). The smaller guild groups are no longer able to counter the mass CC anymore, which has led to more guild groups joining up to create a similar-sized blob (40-60). Generally, this has worked out to a point, where you start to reach a limit on diminishing returns; a group of 40-60 of conjoined guild groups can easily rout a map queue pug blob. But, yes, gone are the days of 20-30 wiping 50-80. It’s too easy to remove stability when facing numbers 2x or more. I feel it’s a net loss to the game, honestly.

Alex Caputo.7863:

Last week I saw about 25 NightShift [NS] (who are top 3 gvg/fight guilds on NA) get completely demolished by about 50-60 HG. What would happen before the stab changes was that NS would completely steamroll HG due to their superior skill based play, players, builds, commanding, etc. I saw them get one pushed and demolished by HG due to the blow up of CC which is impossible to counter in smaller numbers. What Anet has done is encouraged mindless blob play instead of coordinated strategy amongst players. I found this to be extremely sad and a killer to the game in itself. The GvG scene is all but dead, since now the meta seems to be extreme CC with no frontline, making half the classes NOT EVEN WORTH PLAYING IN THIS GAME ANYMORE. As a result Ns, Syn and i believe Agg have quit the guild wars 2, making this a sad example of what happens when you mess with an already stable system. Losing these experienced guilds and players is a hardstrike on the WvW community. Anet please find it in your hearts to put the game back on track and set the stab changes to the way it was, encourage small man play to actually have a chance to beat superior numbers. Sincerely, all WvW players.

Wait… It took “skill” for a dozen guardians and warriors to blob up and hammer on two buttons to ignore all other profession CC abilities?!?! The nerve of ANet!!!

I want to bring up an ideal of immunity to a type of condition any type would do how dose that play out for the class that has this immunity and how dose it play out for the class that is build on using the condition that has no effect on a class. Its a balancing issue the old paper rock scissors but in a game where you cant swap between these 3 types you need some type of “yes you can destroy this class but it can still out play you and win.” What dose having this immunity mean?

I feel that pure hard counters to any type of cc contention dmg type etc.. comply rolls over the ideal of any type of real balances in a complex game where a player is locked into a “class job etc..” and not able to chose a rock or paper as needed. Stab was that type of hard counter and was made worst due to number of classes that gave stab to other players.

IF stab was a pure self only having a set cd and duration that could only be changed by what you and you alone have set up for on the lines of build in game play that lets all heroes stab for x sec on a cd of x the same for every class etc.. (some games use burn a restores to do so) then it would be ok to keep stab passive effect as it was. But once you add in the ability for other players to push out a boon that stop many skills and effects from doing any thing then the effect becomes broken and less of “use as needed” but more of “must have up all the time because you can.”

It was a needed changes because it crated a “must have on all the time with out any real cost” effect making a class a pure immunity to an effect that hard counter many classes effects and ability to the point of restriction to builds etc.. Its like making rock able to give paper stand making paper into stand paper making scissors into a non viable chose.

I’m sorry, but I didn’t understand a word you said.

Hahaha i find it funny how guilds, publicly considered “top guilds” now get steamrolled because mellee thinks they can get carried by stability while still jumping in all the kitten on the ground. The fact that 75%+ of a “pro guild group” was always a mellee ball that was able to get carried by spamming shouts/cleanses/stab randomly was ridiculous.
I think now the risk of plainly “jumping in” is much more balanced than before.

The blobbing incentive is higher now I aggree but that has always been because of an AOE cap. Now it has just become more apparent.

Sykper.6583:

Kasteros.9847:

Sykper.6583:

…Actual GvG fights aren’t affected, they were taking place in OS officially.

Unofficial fights and zerg-busting are affected to a degree, but I am going to go on a limb here and say said guilds leaving the game are probably going to come back with HoT. There is just so much going on it would be wrong not to.

What I actually think the stability change is for, aside from putting a pretty big dent in the train-meta, is to help balance what HoT will throw at us. Pretty sure it has been talked about just how blob-unfriendly the new Borderlands (at least Desert) will be between all the chokes and vertical movement.

It will be too tough to call, calm down for now. Also really, really wish I can get into the next wave of HoT testing.

Do u really think ppl wouldn’t blob? xD With actuall stabil u blob u win simple. Also yes, the change is to balance game for HoT – tbh it is to make revenant more op for first days to make ppl buy expansion. It is also made to nerf guild znd zergs fights against blobs. It is all that is behinde this change – it is also the most logical way to think about it. Or maybe someone else know other reason to change something that worked and wasn’t changed( after huge QQ from blobers at forums) for last 3 years( including beta)?

Oh of course people will blob, I probably should have rephrased. I never meant to say that the new BL would utterly remove blobs, superior numbers is and will always be an advantage in WvW.

What I hope for is that the borderlands map will deter blobbing as between the verticality and chokes we will start seeing blobs being punished harder for well, blobbing.

The revenant did not need to have stability changed for people to play it, it is an entirely new profession, people will still cry nerf about every little unknown thing about the profession without putting too much thought into why it was made that way. And it is super likely that at least some of those points they make are valid as no MMO has ever released a new class without some balancing issues.

I doubt it was to nerf guild v zerg, however I do have my own theories on that issue that are probably well-beyond this thread.

I didn’t wrote that it was to blob guilds vs zergs, i wrote thta it was to nef guilds vs blobs which is actuall case.

Yesterday I went with my worker warrior( hammer / wh+sword) to Eb, after 30 min of not getting a chance for hit – when u went meele u got insta killed i swapped to guardian and run staff only, cos even commander didn’t engage in meele So what this patch made was totally prevent players form playing meele and ruined the only good thing in gw2 that wasn’t same as for other games – every mmo atm focus on range classes.

Defiling Treekiller.1632:

there is no GvG in this game so stop smashing your face into an imaginary wall and blaming A-net

I’m writing about GUILD VS BLOB and i believe everyone too, cos this new stabillity changed those fights, not zerg vs zerg…and yes here is GvG same as pve champ / event train etc. those are players made gamemodes.

Thothkepara.2539:

Alex Caputo.7863:

Last week I saw about 25 NightShift [NS] (who are top 3 gvg/fight guilds on NA) get completely demolished by about 50-60 HG. What would happen before the stab changes was that NS would completely steamroll HG due to their superior skill based play, players, builds, commanding, etc. I saw them get one pushed and demolished by HG due to the blow up of CC which is impossible to counter in smaller numbers. What Anet has done is encouraged mindless blob play instead of coordinated strategy amongst players. I found this to be extremely sad and a killer to the game in itself. The GvG scene is all but dead, since now the meta seems to be extreme CC with no frontline, making half the classes NOT EVEN WORTH PLAYING IN THIS GAME ANYMORE. As a result Ns, Syn and i believe Agg have quit the guild wars 2, making this a sad example of what happens when you mess with an already stable system. Losing these experienced guilds and players is a hardstrike on the WvW community. Anet please find it in your hearts to put the game back on track and set the stab changes to the way it was, encourage small man play to actually have a chance to beat superior numbers. Sincerely, all WvW players.

Wait… It took “skill” for a dozen guardians and warriors to blob up and hammer on two buttons to ignore all other profession CC abilities?!?! The nerve of ANet!!!

You ignorant…he wrote that meele can’t stand against hundreds of ccs…Also hammer on 2 buttons? First of all u have wrokers, dps warriors, hammer guardian and gs guardian so…Second, u have to co-op with all 5 skills, not just 1. and 2. – it is “skill” for blobs Third, it didn’t take a skill of players, it took their chances of wiping blob, cos before ptahc u had to time us stabil, same goes now, but with simple minus, now u get stabil out of you in a moment u put it up At last against blobs that spam ccs all over area – usually lines form guardians and statics from eles which don’t have aoe cap

Jski.6180:

I want to bring up an ideal of immunity to a type of condition any type would do how dose that play out for the class that has this immunity and how dose it play out for the class that is build on using the condition that has no effect on a class. Its a balancing issue the old paper rock scissors but in a game where you cant swap between these 3 types you need some type of “yes you can destroy this class but it can still out play you and win.” What dose having this immunity mean?

I feel that pure hard counters to any type of cc contention dmg type etc.. comply rolls over the ideal of any type of real balances in a complex game where a player is locked into a “class job etc..” and not able to chose a rock or paper as needed. Stab was that type of hard counter and was made worst due to number of classes that gave stab to other players.

IF stab was a pure self only having a set cd and duration that could only be changed by what you and you alone have set up for on the lines of build in game play that lets all heroes stab for x sec on a cd of x the same for every class etc.. (some games use burn a restores to do so) then it would be ok to keep stab passive effect as it was. But once you add in the ability for other players to push out a boon that stop many skills and effects from doing any thing then the effect becomes broken and less of “use as needed” but more of “must have up all the time because you can.”

It was a needed changes because it crated a “must have on all the time with out any real cost” effect making a class a pure immunity to an effect that hard counter many classes effects and ability to the point of restriction to builds etc.. Its like making rock able to give paper stand making paper into stand paper making scissors into a non viable chose.

Yeap, now many classes counter meele Also stab wasn’t “must have”, u had to time it and pray to not get boon reap, now u put up stabil and lose it in 0,001 sec during blob fights so in result no1 go melee and warirors are out of question now( guardian can bomb from range with staffs), they can either solo bomb with rifle, hunt down papers – which isn’t good too since u have too slow burst in compare to ccs up on u when u do so or take LB – probably worst wepaon skilsl in the game – 3. is goign over slow, 1. no dmg at all, enemy get out of f1 before u even cast it. So yes, the change was needed to bring here all those range players form otehr games cos gw2 is supporting rnage only now