Guild Wars 2

What are some changes that could make WvW as good as some of the best RvR MMOs out there? for those who played them.

the first step would be to remove arrow carts

MrFluffy.9307:

the first step would be to remove arrow carts

why that, if you dont mind me asking.

Knighthonor.4061:

MrFluffy.9307:

the first step would be to remove arrow carts

why that, if you dont mind me asking.

they’re overpowered and can ruin a fun fight between clashing guilds. They’re also boring to use, I mean who enjoys pressing 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3 over and over when instead you can test your PvP skills by actually joining the fight by running with your commander.

MrFluffy.9307:

Knighthonor.4061:

MrFluffy.9307:

the first step would be to remove arrow carts

why that, if you dont mind me asking.

they’re overpowered and can ruin a fun fight between clashing guilds. They’re also boring to use, I mean who enjoys pressing 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3 over and over when instead you can test your PvP skills by actually joining the fight by running with your commander.

Its WvW, not PvP. You can test your skills in sPvP.
Siege were meant to be used in WvW and just because its boring to use doesn’t mean that Anet should remove it.

Additionally I think they should buff AC/Ballista dmg a bit. Its a siege after all.

WTB Agramon style Island and 8 man parties with NO aoe cap.

Yes, let’s take things back to the way they were in DAoC and then this can be a desolate deserted game like that one. Their aweful system is why the game is now defunct. Please think this through.

Q: What can make WvW as good as DAoC’s?

A: Rose-colored glasses and a time machine.

I’m not being sarcastic. The RvR concept implemented in DAoC was in a different era.

I loved DAoC and the RvR there. Still my all-time favorite MMO; and I have no illusions about the balance issues (52 classes at one point) and the problems that ToA created. (Yes, I was on the internals board.)

First, there was no such thing as server transfers. If you wanted to play on a different realm you rerolled from scratch. And PvE leveling, then releveling RRs was painful. Or you bought a “used” account, and whatever reputation went with it (which back then, was everything.) Let’s not even talk about the weapon leveling process that erupted from ToA.

The population was incredibly small compared to today’s averages. (300k at peak).

And “coverage” back then meant that someone scheduled a 3 or 5 AM surprise relic raid when everybody else was sleeping.

And as for maps, they weren’t even trying to be balanced. Most of the fighting took place in the large, open, flat areas of Emain, affectionately known as “the golfcourse”.

And do we really want to go back to paying for gate repairs as well as having to haul lumber while encumbered? I know I don’t.

Those are most of the significant differences. Not all are good ones. Yes, realm pride and community there was amazing. That sense carried forward into this game’s implementation of RvR in some small measure.

As much as I believe server transfers are an issue (and have said I don’t believe characters that have stepped into WvW ought to be able to transfer), it’s a different era, and transfers have been a game industry norm now for almost a decade.

So yes, there are things that can be done to improve GW2’s WvW… but it needs to be a step forward refining what currently exists. And the current design implementation already includes server transfers which can’t be undone. I can’t see throwing that out to take a step back towards DAoC.

/turns discussion back towards details such as siege, etcetera

Looking at the only current comparable competition afaik, Elder Scrolls Online, GW2 is already better (IMO ESO went so big it totally ruin smallscale. Hell it went so big even the visuals seem to dwarf a character with their wrong scaling). Some lessons can be learned though:

- Capping secondary resources (ie camps) linked to the major keeps prevents spawning there. Seems like a better way to handle it than the knock on door swords, but would require many more secondary objects. ESO has 3 around all keeps.

- Limit to the amount of siege that can be placed at a keep.

- Less AoE skills on the whole (which would obviously include siege).

- Multiple starting points to avoid spawn camping.

- An achievement goal for the campaign. In ESO its cap all central keeps to gain access to the imperial city, DAoC had something similar if I am not mistaken. GW2 had the obsidian sanctum stonemist link but they removed that. The more points you get from SM seems weak. Tiers are decent incentive to be competetive, but doesnt give my server a direct reward for something done that evening (or any reward at all for that matter). Gw2 isnt bad here, just meh.

And… well, thats about it. I will not disagree with the need for bigger maps, but current size is not so bad. EoTM show how it can be done better to make it look bigger than it really is. Nor will I say anything about the AoE cap, because I wish to have the 1000x more detailed characters compared to DAoC and still have playable, intense dodge action combat. ESO combat pretty much prove that yes, too grand scale kitten up fluid movements.

When looking back at old game you forget all the bad things, Knight Online i still think had the most fun and intesive PVP but kitten i would play it now when it took like 100hours grind to get 1 lvl at the high lvl, what made it fun was you cod be evil like almost kill a enemy and let mobs finish him so he lost 5% off a lvl, something I guess GW2 cod take after is limit heal and remove debuffs to your party, then ofc limit veil, swift also to your party, problem is then how to speed up dollys.

Shadow.3475:

When looking back at old game you forget all the bad things, Knight Online i still think had the most fun and intesive PVP but kitten i would play it now when it took like 100hours grind to get 1 lvl at the high lvl, what made it fun was you cod be evil like almost kill a enemy and let mobs finish him so he lost 5% off a lvl, something I guess GW2 cod take after is limit heal and remove debuffs to your party, then ofc limit veil, swift also to your party, problem is then how to speed up dollys.

Totally agree with this. I too have great sentiment for DAoC, Warhammer, Archlord and so on. At the time I was playing those I was enchanted and loved those but looking back (forgetting the sentiment) I would never wanted to have those PvP systems in GW2.

Those games all used the trinity approach to game balance (not saying they succeeded). this game is using the ‘everyone can do everything’ approach and it simply isn’t working. Unfortunately ANet isn’t willing to make the hard choices and nothing changes patch after patch.

When all is said and done, the basic elements behind those games are here. It’s the defunct classes and horrid balance that’s ruining the game.

I think the single biggest problem with WvW is population and coverage. All the other complaints can be dealt with in game even though they aren’t perfect: AoE issues, siege, waypointing, zergs, etc.

The one thing that cannot be dealt with by the players in game is population and coverage. We have no control over that. Its the biggest issue that makes the game not fun to play.

I’ve only heard about DAOC never played. My question is how did DAOC deal with population and coverage? Was it an issue? Surely it wasn’t even all the time.

No games I played were balanced population wise. Most of them had only 2 sides so obviously one of them had better coverage/numbers either because it was visually more appealing (look Aion) or had better skills (Warhammer). The only game I played which had absolutely no problems with balace was Archlord where you had different races but all of them on the same “side”. In that game fights were between Guilds and Alliances to rule the Archlord castle. Sadly it happened only once per month :/

I have played DAoC for nearly 10 years.

GW2 will need a radical departure from its current state of WvWvW to be similar to RvRvR. It will be like trying to convert wood into metal.

For those that are wondering, RvRvR was DAoC golden child. It was very important. Whereas in GW2 , PvE and t/sPvP are more of a priority over WvWvW.

• Anet could first add ingame GMs like DAoC had.
• Anet could add community chosen class representatives to provide extra feedback to the class balance team.
• Anet should increase the max group size in WvWvW to 8 , just like DAoC RvRvR. But have it for wvwvw only. Not for pve or anything else.
• Fix commander pins, add password to a commander chat channel so that spies can be removed
• Bring back Orbs like how DAoC had relics. But Orbs have to be as hard to take as DAoC relics. Make it so that it would require absolute cohesion on a server wide basis.
• DAoc could handle 500 players at a go, Anet should refine their code to increase the cap
• Add subtle variations to each BL, just like DAoC. Make it interesting and not routine.
• Modify EB to make it more roaming friendly.
• Increase the difficulty of the standard guard.

Fuzzion.2504:

• Anet should increase the max group size in WvWvW to 8 , just like DAoC RvRvR. But have it for wvwvw only. Not for pve or anything else.

Irony being that 8 is already the player group count for sPvP in GW2 :/

I read these forums and listen to everyone talk in wvw and I am so lost on abbreviations there is no page that tells what they are…I have got to be the most confused person running around wvw going. “WTF does that mean what do I do how do I do that?” lol

What purpose would increasing the group size to 8 serve? Buffs/AE/Debuffs are all still limited to 5 targets. On top of that there are 8 classes which removes the need to specialize a group (as if this were a thing in GW2 anyway given their horrible class design).

I just don’t see the point.

MrFluffy.9307:

the first step would be to remove arrow carts

Uh, no. Just no. WvW is a war with structures and sieges. Beside, sieges, such as arrow cart, let you offset huge disadvantages when you try to defend any objectives. Removing them would truly make WvW a number game.

What you want is to push the icon with crossed swords on top of your screen not change the icon with a fortification.

DAoC remains my favorite video game of all time.

That said, Gw2 WvW blows it out of the water. WvW on gw2 actually works for one thing. Balance is superb and bugs limited. All I play is WvW and I think its great.

The biggest thing that holds back Gw2 WvW is lack of updates and the community. All you fools who transfer off servers kill the entire point of the bloody game which is to have a team and a community. Having such an easy transfer process and absurd number differences from tier 1 to t8 kills WvW. By and large the game isn’t the problem, its the players who play it.

Fuzzion.2504:

• DAoc could handle 500 players at a go, Anet should refine their code to increase the cap

They would have to gut the combat system and go back to static based system like the old style MMOs. Way fewer AoEs, no fields, less positional combat and a completely different condition system. DAoC and the like were effectively text based combat engines with graphics. The messaging and math were staggeringly simple by comparison to GW2.

That said GW2s auto-targeting doesn’t leverage their graphical and movement engine well.

At least for me the answer is no aoe cap.
An organized small team could wipe out a random zerg on daoc, in gw2 that’s simply not possible and fights end up being numbers vs numbers.

Yeah i know it’s still possible to roam effectively but you mostly strafe away from the main enemy zerg and pick off other roamers or small groups.

Dano.5298:

DAoC remains my favorite video game of all time.

That said, Gw2 WvW blows it out of the water. WvW on gw2 actually works for one thing. Balance is superb and bugs limited. All I play is WvW and I think its great.

The biggest thing that holds back Gw2 WvW is lack of updates and the community. All you fools who transfer off servers kill the entire point of the bloody game which is to have a team and a community. Having such an easy transfer process and absurd number differences from tier 1 to t8 kills WvW. By and large the game isn’t the problem, its the players who play it.

Exactly! By FAR the biggest problem WvW has comes from the players. And the transfers only made things worst.

Lachanche.6859:

At least for me the answer is no aoe cap.
An organized small team could wipe out a random zerg on daoc, in gw2 that’s simply not possible and fights end up being numbers vs numbers.

That is effectively impossible for a variety of reasons. It would be far easier (and far more beneficial to the engine) to completely remove AoE or at the very least chop the number of AoE skills down immensely. AoE is actually one of the banes of performance in GW2.

Straegen.2938:

Lachanche.6859:

At least for me the answer is no aoe cap.
An organized small team could wipe out a random zerg on daoc, in gw2 that’s simply not possible and fights end up being numbers vs numbers.

That is effectively impossible for a variety of reasons. It would be far easier (and far more beneficial to the engine) to completely remove AoE or at the very least chop the number of AoE skills down immensely. AoE is actually one of the banes of performance in GW2.

No AoE would be bad too. AoE bring another dimension to the game that I like.

Dawdler.8521:

Fuzzion.2504:

• Anet should increase the max group size in WvWvW to 8 , just like DAoC RvRvR. But have it for wvwvw only. Not for pve or anything else.

Irony being that 8 is already the player group count for sPvP in GW2 :/

I forgot about that fact.

Some posters have indicated that GW2 has an aoe cap of 5. Player boon buffs of 5. It would be nice to have those increased to 8. But i fear GW2 may not be ready

Fuzzion.2504:

Some posters have indicated that GW2 has an aoe cap of 5. Player boon buffs of 5. It would be nice to have those increased to 8. But i fear GW2 may not be ready

It is highly likely that going to 8 would require some heavy UI rework and would also introduce more lag.

Straegen.2938:

Fuzzion.2504:

Some posters have indicated that GW2 has an aoe cap of 5. Player boon buffs of 5. It would be nice to have those increased to 8. But i fear GW2 may not be ready

It is highly likely that going to 8 would require some heavy UI rework and would also introduce more lag.

Lulwat? As I said before 8 is already the group cap in GW2 for minimized group UI (its a setting in the options menu, you only see the name and healthbar). The only thing is that WvW/PvE limits groups to 5 with full UI as default (you can turn on minimal UI but have the same 5 peep limit).

So it would definetly not require some “heavy UI rework” as its already implemented. Its real simple – when a 6th member join, swap to minimal UI. If group goes below 6 members again, go back to full UI.

Now, if we’re talking 8 man buffs… Then its a whole other thing. Tbh, I think they should make it 10 man groups instead – just double up the normal PvE size. It can still be 5 man buffs, the only difference now is that you want 2 buffers in the group for spreading boons and such. Some skills are already 10 man AoE (mass invisibility for example), wouldnt hurt to make a couple more per class that. I doubt it will bring any lag. What’s the difference between 2 5 man groups running on top of each other or 1 10 man group? None as far as I can tell. In fact, its one less group for the game to keep track of.

Folks, please read. The OP isnt saying lets make this DAoC, or going back to how DAoC system was. the OP is saying what can be done, knowing what we know now about RvR/wvw systems that can bring about a better wvw experience.

The 3 most important things?

REMOVE AOE DMG CAPS – This has been said again and again. The 5 player cap on AOE damage is what allows the stupid stacking zergball tactics to exist. Without AOE caps, a small group could easily wreck a stacking zerg. ANet has a cap in place because they can’t handle performance problems. Thats not good enough, its not a solution, if you have to break your game mode just to fix the performance you ****** up.

REMOVE ARROW CARTS – I don’t think this really needs explanation. These have zero business being in the game. Players kill players, siege kills walls and doors.

REMOVE COMMANDER TAGS – Oh man, a community would have to form up and talk to each other to organize instead of mindlessly logging in and following the blue condom to safe wvw experience with no risk of shame or accidental pregnancy?

Overall, there is nothing Anet can do to make this game as good as DAoC, because they don’t care and we don’t care.

They don’t care because, despite wvw being the people who keep the game afloat in between story updates, PvE was the best short term profit and sPvP / e-sports was their best hope at long term profit (and fame). And games are all about money. They are never going to break into LoL level e-sports because they didn’t have ladders or tournaments ready to go out the gate, and no one wants to e-sport in a game that doesn’t have hype no matter how much better sPvP has gotten. There is no recovering from that, and its too late to win the people back.

We don’t care because half of what made DAoC great was the community, and the WvW community in GW2 is not full of greatness. If 5 players run into a single player, they will mow him down. If 10 players are engaged in a 5v5, any zerg nearby will mow them down. There is no respect for letting people have their fights, there is no honor.

Could things be done to fix the communities? YES:

For starters, show enemy names in WvW and allow whispering. Display guild tags on claimed keeps / camps and send warnings to that guild when the npc’s are attacked, so that guilds ACTUALLY TALK to each other. We are already freaking spying on each other, whispering isnt going to worsen that. The anonymity doesnt stop jerks from being jerks either. It only serves to prevent the majority of nice players from respecting each other and saying “hey good fight.”

Can things be done to bring life back to WvW in other ways? YES:

WALL CLIMBING – You wear medium armor? Congrats. You can attempt to ninja a tower (of course, the tower should be claimed and sending messages to the guild that owns it, and there should be special guards that ignore stealth to limit small groups directly hitting the lord, especially in keeps or as towers are upgraded), or in large battles are the force we need to clear the walls. Why do we need to clear the walls if there are no arrow carts?

ELEVATION DAMAGE – People who are higher up hit people below them much, much harder. Ranged classes replace arrow carts for keep defense. This also creates interesting defense options for ambushing people in passes, etc.

NEW FREAKIN MAPS – Randomized each matchup, or maybe have each one be persistent to your own home world so you develop a home field advantage over time, what ever. Same map x3 = fail sauce.

Assassin X.8573:

Folks, please read. The OP isnt saying lets make this DAoC, or going back to how DAoC system was. the OP is saying what can be done, knowing what we know now about RvR/wvw systems that can bring about a better wvw experience.

We’ve had those discussions out here, ad nauseum, on other boards, and sometimes directly with the developers.

We’ve discussed fatal flaws in transfers and how that’s corrupted the original RvR concept.

We’ve offered suggestions for improving WvW in many different, detailed ways.

Thank you for your post, though; it was a timely reminder that I’m just repeating myself out here like an old man sharing stories in an empty echo chamber. My apologies.

I’ll just leave it at that.

Raven.9603:

REMOVE AOE DMG CAPS – This has been said again and again. The 5 player cap on AOE damage is what allows the stupid stacking zergball tactics to exist. Without AOE caps, a small group could easily wreck a stacking zerg. ANet has a cap in place because they can’t handle performance problems. Thats not good enough, its not a solution, if you have to break your game mode just to fix the performance you ****** up.

Here we agree. That being said, I think it has more to do with performance than anything else.

REMOVE ARROW CARTS – I don’t think this really needs explanation. These have zero business being in the game. Players kill players, siege kills walls and doors.

Here I strongly disagree. Ac are often all that stands between a much stronger force and total defeat. How many time was I able to hold an objective long enough to hope for any reinforcements in the face of impossible odds? You are fighting a war and your enemy has the same options as you.

REMOVE COMMANDER TAGS – Oh man, a community would have to form up and talk to each other to organize instead of mindlessly logging in and following the blue condom to safe wvw experience with no risk of shame or accidental pregnancy?

I’m on the fence about this one. I see what you mean but at the same time I never felt obligated to follow anyone anywhere. I follow it when we need numbers to take a big objective otherwise I roam. In the end players have to take responsibility for their play style and what game they chose to play as opposed to the game they would have wanted to play…

Overall, there is nothing Anet can do to make this game as good as DAoC, because they don’t care and we don’t care.

How about stop not caring?

They don’t care because, despite wvw being the people who keep the game afloat in between story updates, PvE was the best short term profit and sPvP / e-sports was their best hope at long term profit (and fame). And games are all about money. They are never going to break into LoL level e-sports because they didn’t have ladders or tournaments ready to go out the gate, and no one wants to e-sport in a game that doesn’t have hype no matter how much better sPvP has gotten. There is no recovering from that, and its too late to win the people back.

I don’t get this reasoning to be honest. How is WvW less profitable? I mean WvW players are gem buyers too no? I would know. If WvW is what retain players in the game after they have finished the story, and they eventually all do, they have pretty good incentive to make the WvW players want to stay. I also don’t see any evidences that PvP people are buying less gems and are less attracted to buying a unique look.

We don’t care because half of what made DAoC great was the community, and the WvW community in GW2 is not full of greatness. If 5 players run into a single player, they will mow him down. If 10 players are engaged in a 5v5, any zerg nearby will mow them down. There is no respect for letting people have their fights, there is no honor.

Well, here is where you can do something I would say. The community, on my server at least, as been deteriorating a lot it is true. But I really don’t see this as A-Net problem only. Maybe if players would stop mistaking the cross sword icon for the fortification one, they would feel better. I mean if you are complaining about any enemy trying to run you down when they see you, no matter the number, you are not in the right place. WvW is a battlefield not some Olympic scrimmage with a referee shouting “fight!” and “break”.

WALL CLIMBING – You wear medium armor? Congrats. You can attempt to ninja a tower (of course, the tower should be claimed and sending messages to the guild that owns it, and there should be special guards that ignore stealth to limit small groups directly hitting the lord, especially in keeps or as towers are upgraded), or in large battles are the force we need to clear the walls. Why do we need to clear the walls if there are no arrow carts?

I can see how that will help offset the number advantage (sarcasm). Very bad idea if you ask me.

ELEVATION DAMAGE – People who are higher up hit people below them much, much harder. Ranged classes replace arrow carts for keep defense. This also creates interesting defense options for ambushing people in passes, etc.

See above. Also, would that include my meteors that already comes from the sky? Meh.

NEW FREAKIN MAPS – Randomized each matchup, or maybe have each one be persistent to your own home world so you develop a home field advantage over time, what ever. Same map x3 = fail sauce.

As long as all maps are equivalent I’m all for it too.

Raven.9603:

xxx

I actually love what you said.

Except elevation damage bonus which would be really hard to make right, especially with all the terrain bugs

Some of the rest would be so simple and yet so effective to make things better, starting with making claimings by guilds meaningful and removing the commander tag

goldenwing.8473:

Q: What can make WvW as good as DAoC’s?

A: Rose-colored glasses and a time machine.

I’m not being sarcastic. The RvR concept implemented in DAoC was in a different era.

I loved DAoC and the RvR there. Still my all-time favorite MMO; and I have no illusions about the balance issues (52 classes at one point) and the problems that ToA created. (Yes, I was on the internals board.)

First, there was no such thing as server transfers. If you wanted to play on a different realm you rerolled from scratch. And PvE leveling, then releveling RRs was painful. Or you bought a “used” account, and whatever reputation went with it (which back then, was everything.) Let’s not even talk about the weapon leveling process that erupted from ToA.

The population was incredibly small compared to today’s averages. (300k at peak).

And “coverage” back then meant that someone scheduled a 3 or 5 AM surprise relic raid when everybody else was sleeping.

And as for maps, they weren’t even trying to be balanced. Most of the fighting took place in the large, open, flat areas of Emain, affectionately known as “the golfcourse”.

And do we really want to go back to paying for gate repairs as well as having to haul lumber while encumbered? I know I don’t.

Those are most of the significant differences. Not all are good ones. Yes, realm pride and community there was amazing. That sense carried forward into this game’s implementation of RvR in some small measure.

As much as I believe server transfers are an issue (and have said I don’t believe characters that have stepped into WvW ought to be able to transfer), it’s a different era, and transfers have been a game industry norm now for almost a decade.

So yes, there are things that can be done to improve GW2’s WvW… but it needs to be a step forward refining what currently exists. And the current design implementation already includes server transfers which can’t be undone. I can’t see throwing that out to take a step back towards DAoC.

/turns discussion back towards details such as siege, etcetera

Completely agree. I loved DaoC, but GW2 is a much better game, imo.

Your comment about ToA and imbalance in DaoC is so true…..and let us also not forget the absolutely absurd CC in DaoC. DaoC was a great game for its time, but so many people seem to forget about all the problems it had. WvW in this game needs some improvements, yes, but again, I agree with you….take steps forward, and not backwards towards DaoC.

As for getting rid of certain siege gear in this game, I completely disagree. All of the siege gear serves a purpose. I see complaints about how that sort of gear destroys even fights between a couple of warring groups…..well, so do zergs…..so let’s get rid of them, too? WvW is NOT pvp…..you want even group fights…..go there.

Dawdler.8521:

Lulwat? As I said before 8 is already the group cap in GW2 for minimized group UI (its a setting in the options menu, you only see the name and healthbar). The only thing is that WvW/PvE limits groups to 5 with full UI as default (you can turn on minimal UI but have the same 5 peep limit).

So it would definetly not require some “heavy UI rework” as its already implemented. Its real simple – when a 6th member join, swap to minimal UI. If group goes below 6 members again, go back to full UI.

If you are going to refute my statement at least address ALL of it. Increasing party size will likely increase game lag.

As for the UI rework, it would require effort and likely a substantial one. We have no idea how the mini-map, party chat, party windows, party jump, etc are coded. If those are lists, then it might be easier but if those are hard coded it could take weeks of work to get straightened out. Then there is updating every group skill and skill fact from 5 to 8 which last I checked they are STILL fixing nearly two years later.

For all we know party size is hard coded in the engine and the engine messages back to the UI rather than a direct read of a structure. Aligning a messaging system with a UI is rarely as simply as reskinning the UI.

Johje Holan.4607:

I’ve only heard about DAOC never played. My question is how did DAOC deal with population and coverage? Was it an issue? Surely it wasn’t even all the time.

Will take a stab at this one even though I mainly played on lower pop servers in DAoC. For 1 DAoC was not really that popular of a game so much lower numbers to start with. My regular servers had around 1,200 total players online in US primetime and often times a lot less across a whole lot of maps, 3 realms and a ton of RvR space. The big full servers could not hold more than 2,500 at first.

2nd there was no EU split so everyone was in it together but also I don’t think DAoC was very popular in Asia, not enough grind and shiny for the times. I don’t really remember any side having a big off peak hour crew running around outside of alarm clock raids. I do remember Albs being famous for going crazy on US holidays and times when most sane people would be away from the game (xmas, super bowl, 4th of July late nite).

Midgard was always the under populated realm to start with but they had some seriously OP classes to make up for it. The reason the community stayed so tight for a good long while is we needed each other to get things done. Leveling, PvE raids, RvR relic captures, gear & crafting took a lot of cooperation so we had to work together. You got to know the leaders and bad apples very quickly. And of course no server transfers where a huge part of it. You could start over in an opposing realm or buy more accounts but it took awhile for people to get into that. It also took 5 months to reach max level at first so yeah . . . there was that.

As to all the other points, yes put away the rose tinted glasses or get out the time machine. DAoC was the game of yesteryear and we can’t get it back now. GW2 WvW had (has?) a lot of potential and I was pretty excited for it but due to human nature nasty impatient destructive and divisive little creatures that we are, it just didn’t come together in a perfect storm of goodness and timing. Too bad, I had such high hopes.

The things ANET could do to help WvW they will never do now for fear of customer squawking. Lower WvW map pop caps would go a long way in improving a lot of other things all at once but would never be popular enough to fly. You have to realistic about things like getting rid of the AoE caps, bigger maps and larger group sizes. These are things ANET cannot do with what they’ve built without seriously hurting performance. And the little things they can do have not been well supported by the players so in the long run we probably have no one to blame but ourselves. O’wells, was fun while it lasted and is still prettiest 3 way thing around so will have to do. =/

Dawdler.8521:

Looking at the only current comparable competition afaik, Elder Scrolls Online, GW2 is already better

Nope, the issues with ESO are not with the RvR itself, noting that problems like class balance and engine performance are issues external to the actual design. The RvR design in ESO is way ahead of WvW.

morrolan.9608:

Dawdler.8521:

Looking at the only current comparable competition afaik, Elder Scrolls Online, GW2 is already better

Nope, the issues with ESO are not with the RvR itself, noting that problems like class balance and engine performance are issues external to the actual design. The RvR design in ESO is way ahead of WvW.

Then why arent we all abandoning GW2 for ESO?

The design is more advanced, yes. Pretty features. But its not better. Due to the “epic” size of Cyrodiil and mediocre ways to focus combat, its boring as hell for smallscale. Imagine if the GW2 devs just made borderlands 20x bigger and slapped 20 more keeps in there. It wouldnt make WvW better. It would just make it an empty shell. The largest battles I have seen in ESO in the middle of primetime is still just one keep and its boring, boring and more boring to die and have to travel 10 minutes to get back. I want an action filled combat rpg, not a bloody horse riding simulator.

Planetside 2 is in the scope as ESO (well, its even bigger) and at least they got the action right.

When they reduce the awkward scale (everything look at least twice as big as it should be), remove half the pointless keeps, allow havoc squads instead of forcing 20+ to cap a lousy camp, implement even the most rudimentary command structure, remove the revival cost and fix spawn tents… Maybe then it could be something.

The only thing I have to hand it is that the PvE (dungeons, quest hubs, towns, bandit camps etc) in the PvP zone is great. Oh the irony.

I think gw2 wants to follow the way of tf2.

They will keep ever-greening gw2, so meaning, they will keep continuing with updates and updates and more updates until wvw becomes a polished marble.

DAoC was meant to have a DAoC 2 , eventually but the game was sold to E.A.

So there is hope that GW2 will remain a promising RvRvR clone for a long time. C.U. game will or may be a game changer. We must wait and see.

morrolan.9608:

Nope, the issues with ESO are not with the RvR itself, noting that problems like class balance and engine performance are issues external to the actual design. The RvR design in ESO is way ahead of WvW.

This is true if you ignore mostly empty maps, long runs without fights, seriously lopsided matches (far worse than WvW), builds so broken that they completely unbalance RvR, incredibly long leveling times and of course the painfully obvious PtP (pay-to-play).

I can max level 4-5 classes before I get to V10 in ESO. Things may have changed since I last checked in but it wasn’t pretty a few months ago. ESO has already fallen below GW2 in at least one high profile online user count.

Dawdler.8521:

- Capping secondary resources (ie camps) linked to the major keeps prevents spawning there. Seems like a better way to handle it than the knock on door swords, but would require many more secondary objects. ESO has 3 around all keeps.

I think this is great suggestion. Lets say you can spawn into a keep as long as at least one adjacent sentry and camp is still in your control. That would both slow down these endless karma train blobs, and allow for smaller groups to serve a purpose and be able to actually make a difference.

If they want they could make it even harder and force either the SW or NW tower for example to be in enemy control for WP to start being contested. You could still launch attacks on keeps, but it would be substantially harder.

I really think that for WvW to be good, the gameplay needs to be slowed down a bit. Allow for servers to mount a response to attacks so we can have the epic PvP fights everybody wants instead of this endless cycle of funnel supply into a BL → golem rush bay / hills → move maps when you face resistance.

EFWinters.5421:

Dawdler.8521:

- Capping secondary resources (ie camps) linked to the major keeps prevents spawning there. Seems like a better way to handle it than the knock on door swords, but would require many more secondary objects. ESO has 3 around all keeps.

I think this is great suggestion. Lets say you can spawn into a keep as long as at least one adjacent sentry and camp is still in your control. That would both slow down these endless karma train blobs, and allow for smaller groups to serve a purpose and be able to actually make a difference.

If they want they could make it even harder and force either the SW or NW tower for example to be in enemy control for WP to start being contested. You could still launch attacks on keeps, but it would be substantially harder.

I really think that for WvW to be good, the gameplay needs to be slowed down a bit. Allow for servers to mount a response to attacks so we can have the epic PvP fights everybody wants instead of this endless cycle of funnel supply into a BL -> golem rush bay / hills -> move maps when you face resistance.

If anything more players want things to go faster, they will get thousands of excuse to not slow down combat, other usually server quit our bl at minimal confront with their karma train and wait to our dead hour.

Didn’t played much DAOC, was playing RO at that time to :/

- end WvW
- restrict servers w/o overflows
- open castles in pve zones to be captured (would be nice for Rp’er to)
- i dont know but, atm anything is better than the current WvW…

Raven.9603:

REMOVE AOE DMG CAPS – This has been said again and again. The 5 player cap on AOE damage is what allows the stupid stacking zergball tactics to exist. Without AOE caps, a small group could easily wreck a stacking zerg.

Any competent guild core is going to adapt their scouting techniques, class makeup and builds, and engagement techniques (rolling barrages anyone?) to leverage any change and prove this assertion as the puffery it is. Chokepoints possibly being the exception.

This will increase open field and non-ambush ball dominance, not reduce it.

This will result in massive insta kill DPS zones where skill is absolutely irrelevant. Certain weapons classes and skills will dominate.

Warhammer:AoR gameplay pre and post the RoF nerf for those who were there.

All you need is Mark Jacobs.

ionix.9054:

All you need is Mark Jacobs.

Sorry, he’s busy working on Camelot Unchained.

And Matt Firor was working on ESO.

Neither of which guaranteed anything.

Trying to change a game to one that is a lot older is most likely a bad idea.

ionix.9054:

All you need is Mark Jacobs.

All you need is Mark Jacobs

…to sell the game to E.A.

ionix.9054:

All you need is Mark Jacobs.

I had a great respect for him byt it was he and Mythic who ruined a great game Warhammer Online.

Let’s see how he will handle CU.

It appeared that Warhammer Online was hamstrung before it got out the door, first by the constraints imposed by the necessary agreement to adhere very strictly to the classes and visual asthetics of the board game. And secondly, by the technology of the engine that forced them to abandon the open city sieges during beta. The first was annoying, the second was killer and T4 lakes design was the final nail. (And btw, Mark acknowledges the issue with the engine, hence them redesigning one in-house for CU.)

Applying that to GW2 to keep this post relevant: players wanted large scale fights (without player limits) that felt epic, and maps without grossly overdone pinch points.

I do wish that GW2 had picked up Warhammer’s use of the tiered scenarios and their application of points to the overall battles. It was fun to pop into those short skirmishes leveling up. I think that was a better design of the “ppt” concept. (Very small, instanced maps, short timer -10-15 mins). Would have liked to have seen that instead of EotM.

I only played a little bit of Warhammer, but the RvR and PvP was sooooo much fun.