Guild Wars 2

It’s been 7 months, and culling remains badly broken. worse yet, one class can leverage it to remain stealthed during entire fights without speccing for high stealth and get the highest burst dps of any class. further, said class get 50% run speed.

The apologists defend stealth as it is, blaming the problems on culling, even though in spvp, thief dps has been significantly nerfed for balance. So my question is, what’s the plan for stealth once it’s clear that culling cannot be fixed. I personally think culling wont be fixed, so i am anxious to see a backup plan.

All these issues center around WvW.

It has become obvious to the WvW community that WvW is far behind PvE and sPvP for support.

I believe they will fix culling, eventually, but it will take a long time. They will continue to let things go as is in the meantime. They have no back up plan.

If true, then stealth needs immediate and harsh adjustments.

I don’t disagree with you, but ANet refuses to talk about it. They talk about nerfing AoE, they stated they are currently watching d/d bunker ele’s but I’ve never heard them talking about stealth.

I think they owe us a clear answer on culling fix eta and how they plan to compensate non stealth classes for having to face perma stealthed thieves all the time.

Stealth would need fixing, any thief/mesmer worth their weight would not cry and work around any changes. Good thieves don’t even typically go for perma stealth, its generally the bad players that push 2-3 buttons and think its skill, that would complain.

would be nice to see class pvp balance changes added for sPvP carry over to WvW. Afterall, certain classes are nerfed in sPvP for a reason, to balance and add competitive pvp, should this not apply to WvW too?

If culling never does get fixed, then I agree 100%, something needs to change, and soon. In sPvP you can deal with stealth fine, granted I still am a firm believer in mechanics to reveal stealthers, the devs have a different vision that I’m willing to accept as long as they can balance it, and it’s simply broken in WvW and sPvP nerfs/tweaks don’t effect WvW either. I’ve never played a game where so much of my time is spent swinging at air where I “assume” enemies are, and toss aoe’s around like a madman hoping for the best.

lets face it

culling IS unfixable for them. if it was fixable, it would have been fixed long ago.
they even tried different things to improve it, and none really helped.

where the true reasons are one can just speculate: lack of manpower (they admitted to just have 2 devs responsible for class balance stuff, and that for a mmo, I mean can it get more hilarious) and how their game engine is built up, the 2 most important reasons most likely.

they wont nerf stealth either; the game is half a year old, and again, if they wanted to nerf it (or better: adjust it to the fact that their engine cant handle stealth properly) then they would have already done it.

The culling will be remain.

Just think, instead of talk. They need a new engine if they would like to totally fix it. This is NOT an option! They will be try ofc and write here nice comments about it, but nothing more. Deal with it…

I find it amazing that bunker eles get nerfed, and in the same patch thieves get none, when there are so many more complaints about them. There is only one solution and thats to roll thieves too.

Well then just roll a thief, then post a video how you kill entire zergs . Will be fun to watch. Or not ?

You make it seem like culling is only a issue for theif which is not true culling is a problem for all professions. for instance i have ran to commander icon on map and didn’t see anyone only to find my self dead after 5 seconds in the middle of a enemy zerg. this is not only a theif problem.

ITT: People who think they know how thief/mesmer works.

edit: I agree that culling needs fixing, but people are being clueless about stealth

All these issues center around WvW.
It has become obvious to the WvW community that WvW is far behind PvE and sPvP for support.

My guild ran into culling on our recent get-together in Divinity’s Reach, at an empty spot with no other players. We run into EXTREME culling and fps loss (much worse than i ever experienced in WvW in t5~8) when liberating Balthazar or Grenth temples.
Large guilds will run into culling during guild missions. And as soon as that happens, ANet will be much more pressed to double the work devoted to fixing it.

Grommet.2963:

.. I’ve never played a game where so much of my time is spent swinging at air where I “assume” enemies are, and toss aoe’s around like a madman hoping for the best.

This actually sums it up perfectly. Every time I enter WvW I soon lose count of how many times I Drake’s Breathed and Burning Speeded into random directions, Arcane Waved & Earthquaked on random positions and Lightning Flashed a Churning Earth to some random spot, hoping I’d see a downed thief pop out of stealth afterwards anywhere near me. If that is what ANet considers good gameplay… may god have mercy on your souls.

There is no backup plan. March update better be pretty impressive because the only change they’ve made to culling so far has only made it worse.

GorHanis.7563:

The culling will be remain.

Just think, instead of talk. They need a new engine if they would like to totally fix it. This is NOT an option! They will be try ofc and write here nice comments about it, but nothing more. Deal with it…

Wow, talk about an armchair programmer. You do not have the faintest clue how GW 2 is written, what the limitations of their engine is or what can be done to fix culling, just like the rest of us.

Posts like yours are truly a joke.

Culling will remain an issue due to server quality limitations and ANet not willing to improve them as this would lessen the profit.
As simple as that.

Zumy.6318:

Culling will remain an issue due to server quality limitations and ANet not willing to improve them as this would lessen the profit.
As simple as that.

What.

I dont have the nerdskills to explain this, but two of my guildies are employed as ultranerds and explained it to me like that. Plus some fancy IT things I did not understand.

I think that people will get better and better at using culling. Until it becomes the major tactic. Already we see the tanky thieves cleverly using themselves as bait, wasting time of entire zergs. Portal bombs, group cloaking etc. are far more effective than they should be. It is not exploiting but simply the smart thing to do. We have all been there : you rush into a crowd with your zerg, everybody unleashes all cooldowns and 10 seconds later you start seeing you were actually outmanned and theres a dozen people dead on the floor you never even saw. Or you ended up on the receiving end of course.

Once this gets the upper hand (and it looks like it will) then it is time to take a long break, which is actually fine with me. If they need more time to fix culling, they need more time. GW2 is a bargain in my opinion (no monthly fees) and I put hundreds of hours into the game. They will HAVE to fix culling before they can release an expansion anyway.

RamonDomke, German Community Manager, gave an interesting statement about that problem in the german forum:
https://forum-de.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/wuvwuv/Anzeigeverz-gerung-Culling-Update-25-JAN
Maybe you get it translated somehow …

While following his updated contributions there, you get an impression about the constraints, relations and conditions that exist. My hope is, that those players with expensive hardware don’t have advantage over those who reach the minimum requirements of this game.

Boa

Trust me, we dont. My computer is rocket-science compared to the game requirements and I have kitten culling issues.
Though I see things a little earlier than others.
Also I have 100GB Interwebz, so this is quite fast too.

If culling doesnt improve, 1/3 of the pvpers (not spvpers, open pvpers) will leave the game end of march.

Intigo.1653:

March update better be pretty impressive

Guys I’m telling you now, don’t expect much. Please quote me later and I’ll happily eat my words if I’m wrong. But I’m telling you, don’t expect much.

They cant do anything, developers are trying to work on it, but it needs loads of coding of the engine. They dont have the time, possibly the money to find a good enough programmer to do it, and also possibly the intention lacks, as wvw is only a small part according to Anet. Bandaid is what we will be given, not a real solution. And before Intigo says “what, or [insert random accusation] stop speculating”, the developers themself confirmed this both officially (on these forums) and unofficially (the same developer who told me thieves would get buffed this patch told me this. Its not gonna happen a solution to culling)

Jscull.2514:

If culling doesnt improve, 1/3 of the pvpers (not spvpers, open pvpers) will leave the game end of march.

This basically sums it up. But not only the PvPers, also ppl who only ocassionally PvP. culling is a terrible issue at events in PvE too.

Zumy.6318:

Culling will remain an issue due to server quality limitations and ANet not willing to improve them as this would lessen the profit.
As simple as that.

Habib said in a post somewhere that culling can be fixed by ‘throwing money at it’.

Culling is here because it allows them to use sub standard networking infrastructure.

i don’t expect culling ever to get fixed tbh.

the backup plan is “if enough people quit w3, there is no more culling problem”.

Jscull.2514:

If culling doesnt improve, 1/3 of the pvpers (not spvpers, open pvpers) will leave the game end of march.

well, that would solve 1/3rd of the problem. then they only need to make the other 2/3rds quit and there is no more culling problem.

muylaetrix.2096:

Zumy.6318:

Culling will remain an issue due to server quality limitations and ANet not willing to improve them as this would lessen the profit.
As simple as that.

Culling is here because it allows them to use sub standard networking infrastructure.

This is very sad and would not be possible in a german company certified with DiN ISO 9001. I see a cultural problem here, tbh.
The interest in providing a product on a proper qualitylevel should be bigger than the interest in getting few more bucks.
There was a time when games were developed, because the developers were proud of them and loved them. This times changed with the second WoW-expansion release.

muylaetrix.2096:

Habib said in a post somewhere that culling can be fixed by ‘throwing money at it’.

Culling is here because it allows them to use sub standard networking infrastructure

I don’t know if you simply didn’t understand Habib’s post, don’t remember it accurately, or are just trolling (purposely oversimplifying). But your restatement of Habib’s post is quite inaccurate:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/wuvwuv/Update-on-Culling/first#post1137307

They could easily fix culling without it effecting pve mechanics 1) IPv6 (2) wv3 independent servers using IPv6 network(3) use the same fix they used for orbs ie; remove broken mechanics

People who know how big companies work, wont trust something an executive tells his employee to make public.
Often this method is used for credible dementi of the other case (not doing anything about it).
So Habib might have faith in what he wrote, but at the end of the day there will be “unexpected” “budged cuts” and we will be back on the same culling solving level.

can you believe it, I got infracted for mentioning a particular game just now and how that game became worse with every expansion….I think im done with this pile of junk game.

Xirin.8593:

muylaetrix.2096:

Habib said in a post somewhere that culling can be fixed by ‘throwing money at it’.

Culling is here because it allows them to use sub standard networking infrastructure

I don’t know if you simply didn’t understand Habib’s post, don’t remember it accurately, or are just trolling (purposely oversimplifying). But your restatement of Habib’s post is quite inaccurate:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/wuvwuv/Update-on-Culling/first#post1137307

yep i’m refering to that post.
what other ways are there of reading point 1 ?
point 2 is nonsensical as the box states that broadband is required and even on the most modest broadband in situations where culling occurs, less than 1 % of client bandwith is used. this game is playable with no negative consequences on an analogue modem.
point 3 is nonsensical because any other game i know counters it by allowing you to downgrade your graphic settings far more than GW2. but oh noes, cry me a river, anet seems to find it more important to only show 20 players with all their legendarie glory than to display all players. is it really more important to show the grass bend away from my necrotic grasp missile than to give options that might produce screenshots which might hurt further sales ?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/wuvwuv/Culling-will-be-gone-forever-in-March

If this is true, I will apologize. But after 4 years of getting fixed things in Warhammer, my faith is broken and my soul damaged.
Please dont play with my little gamerheart ANet :-(.

Any input to my question about what the back up plan is or should be with respect to culling and stealth?

Well Habib has put his own reputation on the line (and yes he has a good one thus far), by saying that they are turning culling off completely in March.

I’m perfectly happy to wait and see what March will bring.

Columba.9730:

Any input to my question about what the back up plan is or should be with respect to culling and stealth?

If culling is completely remedied then your question is moot. There is no way (or point) to answer your question until after the culling fix is implemented.

I don’t see why it’s pointless to discuss contingency plans, particularly since many of us don’t believe culling can be fixed, since its already been 7 months of trouble, and since aligning to how to approach solving e stealth problem is good planning. I would think anet would welcome ideas.

drkn.3429:

All these issues center around WvW.
It has become obvious to the WvW community that WvW is far behind PvE and sPvP for support.

My guild ran into culling on our recent get-together in Divinity’s Reach, at an empty spot with no other players. We run into EXTREME culling and fps loss (much worse than i ever experienced in WvW in t5~8) when liberating Balthazar or Grenth temples.
Large guilds will run into culling during guild missions. And as soon as that happens, ANet will be much more pressed to double the work devoted to fixing it.

Not necesarily culling, could be rendering and network lag. There’s too many people confusing those things.
Using terminology like “extreme culling” indicates you’re one of that group. Culling is a fixed max number of chars to display when it kicks in, fixed being the keyword.
Also they have mentioned from the start of the culling discussion on several occasions that culling works really well in PvE but not in WvW and that the goal is to remove it from WvW. They never really mentioned anything about removing it from PvE.

Do you honestly think culling is the reason stealth is so overpowered in WvW? Most thief fights are small scale or even 1v1. Do you really think the only opponent on your screen is being culled?

Culling is the reason why you don’t see all those ranged guys in the back or why you’re not sure how many people just portal bombed you and even the reason you got wiped in the lord room because an extra 20-30 enemies never showed up on your screen. It’s not the reason stealth is overpowered in WvW.

Columba.9730:

I don’t see why it’s pointless to discuss contingency plans, particularly since many of us don’t believe culling can be fixed, since its already been 7 months of trouble, and since aligning to how to approach solving e stealth problem is good planning. I would think anet would welcome ideas.

How can you create a contingency plan without any knowledge of the situation? Literally, we have zero knowledge of ANets systems, code, network, infrastructure, etc.

As such, we can’t even begin to offer true solutions. We can only ask for results. At most we can suggest differing methods (let the end-user determine what is displayed vice the current “blanket” method)…that’s the extent of our input.

It would be like asking your barber to create contingency plans for the Space Shuttle (RIP).

This thread is silly.

The reality is as follows:

1. Culling is fixable.

2. Fixing culling requires (a) an expansion / optimization of ANet’s networking.

3. Fixing culling requires (b) ANet to allow clients to draw things faster. Players’ PCs can already handle kittentons of people drawing quickly. The engine itself slows this down to present a more consistent experience for players with crappy PCs.

ANet must accept that players with kittenty PCs won’t be able to draw 200 people instantly, or all of them, or add some band-aid adjustment to the engine to differentiate the behavior for playeres with poor PCs.

Bottom line is that once ANet accepts #3 or throws in draw limitations (like every other MMORPG release in the last decade), as well as puts up $ for more bandwidth / network optimization, they can easily remove the “culling problem” entirely.

Last I heard, they were supposed to remove it with the March patch which means ANet has done / is ready to do the above. No idea what this thread is about really.

So the fact that they have stated that they are allowing client-side culling toggling in March’s update hasn’t even come up yet, why?

Anet said they have certain lines they will not cross in terms of performance and bandwidth usage. Culling helps the game maintain acceptable performance and bandwidth usage. Removing Culling without crossing those lines is a tough challenge.

Culling’s implementation was not unintentional, but it’s effects on WvW were not foreseen. Fixing it requires changes very deep into the code. Fixing it correctly without causing other major problems or crossing the performance and bandwidth lines takes time. A lot of time.

Saying culling will never be fixed is ridiculous. The problems that it cause are too big to be ignored.

Laika.8795:

So the fact that they have stated that they are allowing client-side culling toggling in March’s update hasn’t even come up yet, why?

i didn’t read/understand that.

>>Habib Loew: Hah, yeah we have seen a lot of the skepticism on the Internet. The change we made in January was really just a tweak to the system. It changed the priorities of Culling but did not eliminate it. The change in March will turn off Culling completely. You will now see every character within range of you. There will be several different options for how other players are presented to you, on the client side that you can choose from so you can control how it works for you.<<

i asume you refer to the part i put in ‘bold’. to me that reads ‘there will be more options to tune down your graphics settings’ and not necessarily ‘you will be able to change culling settings client side’. maybe you refered to something Habib said somewhere else. but who knows, you might be right.

Habib has made me optimistic about this patch. Let’s hope it isn’t just fluff and words.

Laika.8795:

So the fact that they have stated that they are allowing client-side culling toggling in March’s update hasn’t even come up yet, why?

I’m going to armchair quarterback a second and make a stab at this.

They are going to turn off culling in March. I am gonna guess that this is going to be a drastic increase in lag for some players depending on system specs. I think what they are trying to do is allow people to “self cull” to achieve a balance between lag and ability to see.

Just my guess at the reason for it.

Culling is unfixable. It will never be fixed. Im surprised people haven’t figured that out yet…

Maybe there will be an option to load nameplates before lagging you down loading player assets for slower PCs?