Guild Wars 2

Hey,

While iti s welcoming to see new borderland map, there are some major things need to be conisdered when making this kind of map.

1. How big the map should be? – in the beta testing, the number one problem that been reported is how big the map is. This is the most biggest issue here since borderland maps are often used by roaming parties, and solo roaming guys. while high pop servers (t1-2) maybe could fill in the map, other tiers just wont find somone to fight that often since the large size of this map.

TLDR – roaming parties and solo roamers would not find fights often which will lead to ppl abandoning the map for EB which will lead to map emptyness.

2. Multi layered map – it is a nice change to have this multi layered objectives, though I think it is way complex than it should be. all the switches, larger objectives places, some supply depots that are far from gates, make defending and attacking really hard thus discouraging small groups to actually defend or attack certain objective.

TLDR – too much complex that makes defending and attracking very tiresome.

3. Camps – I dont see the reason why you made the camp cap more diffcult than EB camps, let the solo roamers(if there will be) have thier contribute.

All above is enough reasons on thier own that common roamer or low pop wvw guild would avoid getting into the new wvw map you created which is amazingly beutiful and well designed!

Already been like 2 hours on the new map and I barly seen ppl and this is on launch!

I hope you would consider these posts and thanks for all you’ve done in this xpac it is really amazing and rich with content! Thank you!

I agree – the new maps are nice but way too big and complicated.
We’ve been a havoc group of 5 this morning and we wanted to cap a keep, we were at a supply camp before and had no supply to open the second gate (which took us around 15 min to find) – the camp was that far away and the keep that complex that we just waypointed and did something else.

I love the look of the new BL. They are beautiful. But I agree with all of your points. One of the reason you haven’t seen anyone is most likely due to everyone doing all the PvE stuff. Map is too big and too complex. But I need to wait and see how reset is and how my guild rally goes before I make too harsh a judgement. Oh and the automatic upgrades on everything is going way too fast. It takes 4 hours to t3 a keep? I don’t think so. The most realistic amount of time would be 6-8 hours. It is so difficult to take down t3 towers/keeps constantly without a k-train.

I think the complexity may not be as bad in the future as everyone gets to know the map.

If you think about it most players have been on the same borderland map for 3years. Thats 3 years of learning every single pixel and quirk that map had.

Now there is a new map..While true it is huge, it has a lot of new complexity’s for everyone to be looking into and learning. (From yaks moving quicker, to the events, keep changes, spawn base changes, ect..) Eventually with time, players will learn the in’s/out’s of the new map.

Now size is an issue, but I haven’t been able to play it enough to really comment on that.

I played for a while to defend a keep, take back a shrine and flip a camp. The map was absolutely awful in every way. I am sure you are right that it will get better the more you familiarize yourself with it. I just got too frustrated and don’t know if I want to familiarize myself with it. Specializations will take about 4 years to achieve so I think I will just not bother with those either

Akkeros.1675:

I played for a while to defend a keep, take back a shrine and flip a camp. The map was absolutely awful in every way. I am sure you are right that it will get better the more you familiarize yourself with it. I just got too frustrated and don’t know if I want to familiarize myself with it. Specializations will take about 4 years to achieve so I think I will just not bother with those either

I’m not saying the new map is “perfect” by any means, however I’ve just read through tons of posts about people complaining about the map and logging out of it. I mean it is something new to learn tactics, and new siege spots for. Many just don’t seem to be giving any chance to it. Even if the mechanics are “worse” ect… many are complaining and not offering constructive criticism.

Yeah, you are right. I shouldn’t just complain and not give anything constructive in return. I just see so much of what I did not like in the game (e.g. jumping puzzles, pve, inconvenient travel) being added to the only part of the game I play (wvw).
I just didn’t want to be greatly disappointed like everyone was predicting…but I was.

Akkeros.1675:

Yeah, you are right. I shouldn’t just complain and not give anything constructive in return. I just see so much of what I did not like in the game (e.g. jumping puzzles, pve, inconvenient travel) being added to the only part of the game I play (wvw).
I just didn’t want to be greatly disappointed like everyone was predicting…but I was.

You can take it as being directed to you or not. That’s your choice, however it was not my intent. (Nor to list specific complaints everyone has made, or things done wrong with the map.)

Believe me, I don’t care for the PvE, jump puzzles, and such either. However I have not played the new map enough yet to give constructive feedback to Anet. That’s the only reason as to why I have not posted to Anet about anything…yet.

I do think Anet should have a team to weed through posts and play in the WvW game mode more so then they do now. Especially with adding the new WvW map. (If they want to keep the game mode alive.)

History has showen that during any new event or content players empty out of WvW to engage it.

This is the biggest event/injection of content since release.

You draw the conclusion.

Ross Biddle.2367:

History has showen that during any new event or content players empty out of WvW to engage it.

This is the biggest event/injection of content since release.

You draw the conclusion.

That may be true – on low tier servers. on higher tier you would still see lots of roamers. Now not saying that the wvw population is the same, but try going to south camp from your keep, trying to have it on guards, die horribly and think how you just wasted 10 min which 4-5 min is just running to die for overbuffed guard camp.

My points were made by many many ppl roamers I know and you can see the other posts here and on this forum. It will not stop after ppl from pve come back.

And about learning, you only need to take a quick stroll at your “garri” to understand how complex this map really is..

Ross Biddle.2367:

History has showen that during any new event or content players empty out of WvW to engage it.

This is the biggest event/injection of content since release.

You draw the conclusion.

After spending over 4 hours on the new content, i can safely say there isn’t a lot of people that seem to be playing the new content either, nor the halloween stuff. So if they aren’t playing there, and they aren’t playing WvW, then where are they?

Could this maybe be a case of frustration to see that they need to spend another 6 months to a year grinding to finish 1 elite spec on one class? I mean it’s Friday, the expansion is out, there have been WvW changes, this would stand reason that many people should be playing, but they aren’t.

There is something aloof here and I think it mainly has to do with elite specs and how the masteries are rolled out.

I don’t mind the complexity of the new BL maps. I actually like it and I’m sure others will too when they get to know the map better.

However, the map is way too big and the keeps/towers upgrade way too fast at the moment.

On my side I think we have to give time to see the new map..
But I’m always able to take a supply camp alone…. We are able to take a undefended keep with 3 people….. Nothing so bad…
The big issue is that they removed the wp, then if you die on the south of the map you have to run for age before being able to come back. But I truly think that this map was designed for that all team will hold their 1/3 on each BL.. Then you are always close to your WP. I’m not thinking that this was designed as the old one, where each team hold all is own BL and close to nothing on other.
We have to see when we can have more players to see how to defend or attack with more players. Actually during the day there is not a lot of people on the map yes… But wait the reset, wait few days… We have to learn.

Oh and I hate the new auto free upgrade… To easy, to fast… And auto upgrade + no wp mean that the keep have no value (except garri). Because T0 and T3 keep have exactly the same PPT… Then if ennemy blob attack your keep, you just have to loose it, and take it back once they leave…
And auto upgrade make that you have to rush every tower you lost to avoid the T3 situation…

Another thing, doly are just useless now… This remove a huge part of the game ! So many memories to defend supply camp, run dolly, to be able to upgrade your keep with WP…. Now there is just no WP, and dolly are not required to make the upgrade…
This is really really bad…. Actually on my server we just ignore supply camp / dolly…. We try to take it back fast, but really no interest to defend it…

And T3 door are fine, was to easy to break before

New BL is a very nice and well designed but rather PvE map.
I don’t prefer a map where you get lost, where it’s difficult to find the way to the battlefield and takes 20 mins to travel from top to bottom. It feels like another EOTM map and that makes me sad. For now, I think I will prefer EB, but I guess it will be 24/7 queue because many other people thinks the same (at least those I’ve talked to so far).

Love the new map, not seen (or mentally mapped) all of it yet, but as a team of 2 or 3 we were able to take camps and keeps, though the large structures (think Hills or Bay), are very tricky – we couldn’t manage those with a small team.

Judging population is tricky at the moment, as most of our WvWers are away playing new PvE content (who wouldn’t want to spend hours gliding?)

I personally really love the new BL maps. Yes they’re pretty big, and yes they’re confusing and complex, but ofc they’re going to seem that way when they’ve only been out a day so far. First thing I did come HoT was check out the new map with some guildies and we had alot of fun and laughter at just getting lost, discovering some cool stuff, and making sure we were the first server in our MU to fire off that big rocket… thing.

I’m assuming that right now everyone just needs time to figure the most efficient routes around the map, where all the siege spots are, and how each layer of the map is connected. Once we all get to grips with that, the maps won’t seem as enormous and confusing as they seem now.

I spent like two hours exploring the new borderlands maps. And like 20 minutes in the air temple. The map if freaking huge. That’s the reason you don’t see anybody, besides HoT and Halloween sucking players away.

It’s going to take a bit of time to learn all the shortcuts.

I know its just a video game, but I’m really tired of walking. Learning the map may help improve mobility, but I don’t know if that is enough to help roamers find fights. The old map only had couple routes between camps and the distance between objectives allowed you to respond to white swords. This doesn’t seem possible with the new map.

You can tell that a lot of time was spent developing this map. The scenery and layout are amazing for exploring, but it just doesn’t seem work for PvP. I’m surprised that they kept the size and verticality despite all of the negative feedback for EOTM.

Do the new gliders work in WvW? That may be the “shortcut.”

What I’ve seen so far:

• Upgrades: Free, automatic & tiered. I can save money.
• Yakslapping: Less necessary, harder to kill a yak.
• Yak Escorting: Less necessary, easier to defend a yak.
• Sentries: More useful (shows enemy on map, cripples yaks).
• Objectives: More likely to self-upgrade, harder to take.
• Doors: Can fortify now, rams can be hit by 2 oils and 2 cannons in some places.
• Scouting: You can mine resource synthesizers while sitting inside someplace (disabled due to bug/exploit.) New ways to see enemies on the minimap.
• Small Objectives: 9 new shrines added.
• Champion Scaling: It took a zerg a LONG time to take down a fully fortified earth keep lord. I had time to run back from citadel before the lord went down.
• Swiftness: More important than ever
• Fall Damage Traits: More popular than before
• Loot: I solo’d a shrine and got a charged lodestone (score!)
• Guild Catas: Finally nerfed, hooray.
• Wyverns: Wyverns are nasty!
• Lazer Event: A few defenders can spend a LONG time trying to do this themselves and then a giant zerg can arrive, kill them and finish it quickly. I think I predicted this a long, long time ago.
• Progress: Instead of meaningless ranks and loot, you can now earn meaningless ranks, loot, and elite specializations (eventually.)

Sandrox.9524:

That may be true – on low tier servers. on higher tier you would still see lots of roamers. Now not saying that the wvw population is the same, but try going to south camp from your keep, trying to have it on guards, die horribly and think how you just wasted 10 min which 4-5 min is just running to die for overbuffed guard camp.

My points were made by many many ppl roamers I know and you can see the other posts here and on this forum. It will not stop after ppl from pve come back.

And about learning, you only need to take a quick stroll at your “garri” to understand how complex this map really is..

What Boss Riddle said is correct and this is an entire release of content game wide(plus Halloween), which can’t be compared to any sort of holiday or special event.

On the other hand, the map is entirely new. People have to learn their way around again, these are not the maps they have been on for three years. Welcome to what it was like in the first few weeks of the game’s release. People had to learn how to solo camps, the best ways to move around the map, and siege placement. All of that is MUCH harder than people have been used to(it was way too easy) so naturally most people will complain.
The people that stick with it and adjust instead of giving up will be the ones owning face in a week or two, as usual.

misterdevious.6482:

• Upgrades: Free, automatic & tiered. I can save money.
• Yakslapping: Less necessary, harder to kill a yak.
• Yak Escorting: Less necessary, easier to defend a yak.

Those all 3 together are a bad thing… They have to remove the automatic upgrade… This is PvP not PvE… We need that some human go to the structures to start the upgrade.
And they have to remove the fact that dolly are optionnal… Dolly must be needed, upgrade should not complete without dolly.
I’m to have back the old way for supply and upgrade, but make the upgrade free (only for gold, not for supply). And then have the same amount of max supply inside the structure.
Actually no one will try to protect dolly because they are totaly useless…

They have kill a big part of the off peak time game… It was so interesting to escort dolly, protect supply camp to have our WP on the keep… This part of the game is now vanished…. WvW is not only about prime time and zerg…

The good thing is that the yak are faster and stronger.

misterdevious.6482:

• Sentries: More useful (shows enemy on map, cripples yaks).

That a good thing.

misterdevious.6482:

• Objectives: More likely to self-upgrade, harder to take.

The problem here is the free auto upgrade (no human needed, no dolly needed).

misterdevious.6482:

• Doors: Can fortify now, rams can be hit by 2 oils and 2 cannons in some places.

Fortify gate it’s good, but oil and canon are useless like before. If you stand on this siege you die in 2 sec because the ennemy caster will kill you very fast…

misterdevious.6482:

• Small Objectives: 9 new shrines added.

useless..

misterdevious.6482:

• Champion Scaling: It took a zerg a LONG time to take down a fully fortified earth keep lord. I had time to run back from citadel before the lord went down.

that’s a good point…

misterdevious.6482:

• Swiftness: More important than ever

The map is too big.. Just give back the old WP…

misterdevious.6482:

• Guild Catas: Finally nerfed, hooray.

I like this one

misterdevious.6482:

• Lazer Event: A few defenders can spend a LONG time trying to do this themselves and then a giant zerg can arrive, kill them and finish it quickly. I think I predicted this a long, long time ago.

This event is a big kitten yes… They need to remove this… Or remove the canon and give just bonus chest to player who make the event… No way to see pve event who give pvp advantage…

DeadlySynz.3471:

After spending over 4 hours on the new content, i can safely say there isn’t a lot of people that seem to be playing the new content either, nor the halloween stuff.

If you are referring to the labyrinth; the map cap there is about ~20, maybe 25.
I have no idea what the caps for the new maps are and how full they are in general, but my friendslist was on them yesterday – so I guess some people are playing the new content. Wvw is pretty empty though, but maybe that’s also because it’s no real match right now.

The map is best described as baroque.

T2. Same thoughts here. I was trying to give it some time before commenting. But, I never thought I’d want to see the old borderlands again, when the new ones came out because they were so awesome looking, but, I do.

So far, I feel like this is nothing but a massive PVE Drytop 3.0 map. Sadly, I find myself literally putting my character to sleep at every gate (which took far too long just to get to), and going to get a beverage, making a sandwich, vacuuming the floor, doing laundry, and then coming back to see if the gates are down yet. Soooo slow.

The very few fights I have gotten into, (T2) I’ve found the terrain is so drab that I can’t see the red over the browns. I find myself working my way right into the enemy because I can’t see the red in there. And the terrain is so overdone that you can hide a Zerg 6 feet away (never find a single fight, which is the whole idea of what we do want in the first place). And it could take 5 minutes to get to them, even at that distance.

I don’t ever feel like I am even in a keep or a tower. It all feels the same as the terrain. It doesn’t feel like you are capturing an objective at all. It feels like you are wandering in nothing more, than, more overdone terrain. If they weren’t built directly over the old maps (which I find unexpected, and hugely disappointing), you would otherwise have no idea where the perimeter, or, structure is even supposed to be, or what the objective is. Everything seems like a giant jumbled up mess. It doesn’t feel like WvW PVP. It feels, and plays, like Drytop 3.0.

Agreed, we have to learn the maps. So far, to me, it is just lonely feeling, and slow paced PvE. The gates have to go down so slowly because it will take so long to have to go defend something. But defend what? Where’s the wall? Which side of it are we even on?

The middle cannon is a huge, long, slow PVE event, requiring large numbers of PvE’ers. Which is certain to assure, that the team that is already pummeling the others, will continue to do so. Agreed.

IMO, it’s supposed to be WVW PVP. Live player fights, and fast paced action. 3 identical maps like this, feels like it is going to leave EB and EOTM as the only places to get fast paced action and fights, from what I can see so far. I really, really, hope I am wrong.

I play wvw exclusesively and the number 1 reason i never went to BL(unless i had to) was how big it was and oddly shaped and too many hills. it seems anet took that and made something worst lol.
As for tier 1 i can assure you we have yet to pop the map at least on BG (any map that ive seen). which is what expected as people play HOT but still wvw currently is dead this week.

The map is big and beautiful but what it seems to fail to understand is we go to WvW to fight people.

So really it doesn’t matter how great the scenery is if the design makes it incredibly painful to find fights.

Sandrox.9524:

TLDR – roaming parties and solo roamers would not find fights often which will lead to ppl abandoning the map for EB which will lead to map emptyness.

Why can’t you find fights? The map literally tells you where other roamers are.

Before rushing to judgement, bear in mind that a massive chunk of the player population is off in PvE, doing the new content. Wait a week or two before deciding that roaming is dead.

The new borders certainly cut any ties people had with the game mode (except for EB).
Who now cares when a tower or keep falls?
Most likely you’d never even be in time to save it anyway, so no point in even putting up scouts since backup would arrive too late.

Also, who cares if Rampart on your border flips?
On the old borders Garri was pretty much the last line that you would defend til the end and even call people from other borders to help out.
I remember doing allnighters to defend it a long time ago, especially if it was T3 and fully sieged up.
Now? I really couldn’t care less to defend or scout, which was pretty much the one thing i did the most in WvW.

Imagine the conversation on TS.
Jump into EB TS
-“Need help on home border, blob attacking Rampart”
*crickets *
*crickets *
*crickets *
-“What’s Rampart?”

dancingmonkey.4902:

Why can’t you find fights? The map literally tells you where other roamers are.

… which also means people know where not to run to avoid people. Most “roamers” run away from fights rather than to them, unless they know they can gank targets without loosing.

Dawdler.8521:

dancingmonkey.4902:

Why can’t you find fights? The map literally tells you where other roamers are.

… which also means people know where not to run to avoid people. Most “roamers” run away from fights rather than to them, unless they know they can gank targets without loosing.

I guess I’m the exception.

Ironvos.9014:

-“What’s Rampart?”

“Rampart, this is Rescue 51…”

The new borderlands are far too big and complex.
They could have done more complex or made them bigger but doing both is too much.
There is a lot to like in some changes but when people can’t even find each other to fight then WVW loses it’s meaning.

Ironvos.9014:

The new borders certainly cut any ties people had with the game mode (except for EB).
Who now cares when a tower or keep falls?
Most likely you’d never even be in time to save it anyway, so no point in even putting up scouts since backup would arrive too late.

Also, who cares if Rampart on your border flips?
On the old borders Garri was pretty much the last line that you would defend til the end and even call people from other borders to help out.
I remember doing allnighters to defend it a long time ago, especially if it was T3 and fully sieged up.
Now? I really couldn’t care less to defend or scout, which was pretty much the one thing i did the most in WvW.

Imagine the conversation on TS.
Jump into EB TS
-“Need help on home border, blob attacking Rampart”
*crickets *
*crickets *
*crickets *
-“What’s Rampart?”

Exactly, scouts all over complaining on how hard is to defend stuff there, I like when 3 ppl could defend a keep now it is impossible unless the enemy is blind dumb monkey on pills that only walk sideways.

Sandrox.9524:

unless the enemy is blind dumb monkey on pills that only walk sideways.

I thought that was the definition of a blob. (Little scout humour there! )

Jayne.9251:

Sandrox.9524:

unless the enemy is blind dumb monkey on pills that only walk sideways.

I thought that was the definition of a blob. (Little scout humour there! )

this is…….disturbingly true…

I’m finding it way easier to scout than before. Even if response times are low, the enemy has to kill cannons/oil first or I’ll do mean things to them. I have a very tough to bring down build so I can and will 1v10 people if I’m on a cannon. With oil, I get damage reduction…so usually they just go for a wall instead.

Then, if they get through the gates, the lord takes them several minutes to bring down and is much more dangerous. This means my back-up has longer to arrive and better odds of success upon doing so.

Sviel.7493:

I’m finding it way easier to scout than before. Even if response times are low, the enemy has to kill cannons/oil first or I’ll do mean things to them. I have a very tough to bring down build so I can and will 1v10 people if I’m on a cannon. With oil, I get damage reduction…so usually they just go for a wall instead.

Then, if they get through the gates, the lord takes them several minutes to bring down and is much more dangerous. This means my back-up has longer to arrive and better odds of success upon doing so.

Yep, you have more time to defend, but as no one care to defend those useless stuff (free auto upgrade, no wp) then you just stay alone, or maybe with 2 other people…
Actually the best thing to do when you see the ennemy zerg is to move on the other side of the map to take your other stuff back. And then come back later to start again.