When Does One Up One Down Start?

When Does One Up One Down Start?

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Posted by: Grandtomatoe.2045

Grandtomatoe.2045

I’m ready!

Any info on this?

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Posted by: Strider Pj.2193

Strider Pj.2193

I’m ready!

Any info on this?

Then the match manipulation will be in the hands of the players. Definitely a good thing. I mean, look what they have done with server populations.

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Posted by: Jayne.9251

Jayne.9251

Strider just made my night … Lol.

L’enfer, c’est les autres

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Posted by: Chaba.5410

Chaba.5410

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/6co28x/anet_glicko_needs_to_go/dhwhl30/

“No exact date, but we’re aiming to send it toward Live and turn it on when it’s ready.”

Chaba Tangnu
Founding member of [NERF] Fort Engineer and driver for [TLC] The Legion of Charrs
RIP [SIC] Strident Iconoclast

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Posted by: Straegen.2938

Straegen.2938

This looks like a good idea until a top tier server tanks two weeks in a row and gets to play in T3 and T2 for a couple weeks… oh wait that is already happening without any need for tanking.

Sarcasm For Hire [SFH]
“Youre lips are movin and youre complaining about something thats wingeing.”

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Posted by: Sarika.3756

Sarika.3756

Never, I hope. In the current state of matchups, it’s a horrible idea.

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Posted by: Sylvyn.4750

Sylvyn.4750

Never, I hope. In the current state of matchups, it’s a horrible idea.

The current state? Like Straegen mentioned, with all the T1 servers being spread against T2 and T3 servers and the only balanced fight currently is in T4? At least with 1 up 1 down, if a server tanks then people bandwagon to it, it will move up more quickly and not produce very lopsided matches in the lower tiers for weeks on end, as happened with the traditional Glicko method, and T3 and T4 servers wouldn’t have to worry about facing T1 servers until they had the ability to do so. I think it’ll be as good a method as any…matchups will be different, at least from week to week, and tier differences should be kept to a minimum in each matchup, unlike the current state.

(edited by Sylvyn.4750)

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Posted by: Dayra.7405

Dayra.7405

Winner up – Looser down is clearly worser than the current matchmaking (tuned to be a bit less variant, which would be very easy).

Here an example:
1 week : 1-2-3 & 4-5-6 & 7-8-9 & 10-11-12
2 week: 1-2-4 & 3-5-7 & 6-8-10 & 9-11-12
If the ranks really represent the strength then
3 week as first
4 week as second and so on till some strength change

Disadvantages:
- 1 always plays vs 2 and 11 always plays vs 12
- Always the same matches in a bi-weekly turn
- Never a match between 3 & 4, and 6 & 7 and 9 & 10

This is without manipuation, but I see a lot of manipulation incoming in all tier: “oh no, no again vs XX, lets try to not win” … So the even rounds will be imbalanced and the uneven rounds will be manipulated. Whow, what a improvement over today.

In the seasons the swiss-tournament turned out to produce mostly Winner up – Looser down matches, it was really so bad as in my example.

Ceterum censeo SFR esse delendam!

(edited by Dayra.7405)

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Posted by: Chinchilla.1785

Chinchilla.1785

Winner up – Looser down is clearly worser than the current matchmaking (tuned to be a bit less variant, which would be very easy).

Here an example:
1 week : 1-2-3 & 4-5-6 & 7-8-9 & 10-11-12
2 week: 1-2-4 & 3-5-7 & 6-8-10 & 9-11-12
If the ranks really represent the strength then
3 week as first
4 week as second and so on till some strength change

Disadvantages:
- 1 always plays vs 2 and 11 always plays vs 12
- Always the same matches
- Never a match between 3 & 4, and 6 & 7 and 9 & 10

This is without manipuation, but I see a lot of manipulation incoming in all tier: “oh no, no again vs XX, lets try to not win” …

In the seasons the swiss-tournament turned out to produce mostly Winner up – Looser down matches, it was really so bad as in my example.

It should be noted that tournaments had more attendance (no links back then to stop more players playing).

In my opinion, I see 1 up 1 benefiting NA servers (population disparity is larger) more than EU servers (where language barriers maintained consistent population).

So for NA, fighting the same match ups over, and over is numerically better by population balance. Even if people hate the “feeling” of sameness despite opponents not really differing in play style minus two servers (Mag, and YB). That feeling shouldn’t necessarily be ignored, just be noted that it doesn’t come only from same match ups.

RISE guild best guild super RPers trash blob guild [RISE] masters of the die on inc technique.

Trinity Of Our EU Lords [Kazo] Zudo Jason Betta

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Posted by: Dayra.7405

Dayra.7405

So for NA, fighting the same match ups over, and over is numerically better by population balance.

But even that is easier with the current system, just tune down the weight of the random roll. If you do to much you get total stagnation in match making.

In 1-up 1-down you always have imbalanced matcches in the even weeks.

Ceterum censeo SFR esse delendam!

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Posted by: Chinchilla.1785

Chinchilla.1785

So for NA, fighting the same match ups over, and over is numerically better by population balance.

But even that is easier with the current system, just tune down the weight of the random roll. If you do to much you get total stagnation in match making.

In 1-up 1-down you always have imbalanced matcches in the even weeks.

Let me be clear(er?). Glicko is bad for the common player because it’s hidden behind technical game jargon, and isn’t intuitive within the game itself. It’d be more UI clutter if they actually put it within another game menu layered on top of all the other menus…and so on. This point of view is not about numbers, but the importance of “feeling” within the game. Accessibility. One up, and one down is far easier for a player to understand (which is important if you care about bringing on new players).

For the worry of imbalanced matches every other week. Yes, and no maybe perhaps. Typically for NA, 1 server is going to be dominate, then a middling, then a weakling. The weakling changing out isn’t much of an imbalance if it’s just another weakling. How does Glicko resolve this? How does 1 up and 1 down resolve this? They don’t. But removing the random roll resolves the issue of a Tier 1 dropping down to fight Tier 3, and Tier 4. As would 1 up and 1 down. It may be statistically better to do as you suggested. Now, try sitting down with all these new/returning people and ask how they feel about Glicko. Don’t explain, just ask what they think and see if they even know, care, or [insert other feeling] about it.

RISE guild best guild super RPers trash blob guild [RISE] masters of the die on inc technique.

Trinity Of Our EU Lords [Kazo] Zudo Jason Betta

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Posted by: Dayra.7405

Dayra.7405

Yeah a long time ago (4 years?) I proposed to have the
Predicted rating evolution as on http://mos.millenium.org/eu/matchups
in the WvW menu as the main outcome of a match.

And yeah it’s easy to exlain: You gain Glicko, if you perform better than expected, you loose Glicko if you perform worser than expected.

Ceterum censeo SFR esse delendam!

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Posted by: Chinchilla.1785

Chinchilla.1785

Yeah a long time ago (4 years?) I proposed to have the
Predicted rating evolution as on http://mos.millenium.org/eu/matchups
in the WvW menu as the main outcome of a match.

This is exactly what I was saying I’m against: more UI clutter in order to explain something that doesn’t significantly enhance the actual play experience. Great that you proposed it in order to help demystify Glicko, but 1 up and 1 down wouldn’t require such things to show a normal person. Again, I am saying it’s easier for a player to understand One Up and One Down. Not saying it’s statistically better.

And yeah it’s easy to exlain: You gain Glicko, if you perform better than expected, you loose Glicko if you perform worser than expected.

Ignoring that I said in the previous post to not explain Glicko, and simply ask if the new/returning people care about Glicko.

1 up and 1 down is always easy to explain: Your server moves up after winning a match. Your server moves down after losing a match.

I wanted you to think about how a player feels about Glicko, and not it’s definition.

This is why I hate discussing scoring. People tunnel vision on this stuff thinking it solves something. Match stagnation, population, and so on. Score is the thing after the fact. You could just as easily resolve stagnation if WvW reset daily. That’s something that affects game play far more than removing random scoring variation or even 1 up and 1 down.

P.S. I hate the tiered structure to begin with. I hate 1v1v1. My opinions above doesn’t mean I totally like 1 up and 1 down. I’m just done caring about score at this point, and will never believe it adds much to the current game play beyond match manipulation by ANET (or players).

RISE guild best guild super RPers trash blob guild [RISE] masters of the die on inc technique.

Trinity Of Our EU Lords [Kazo] Zudo Jason Betta

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Posted by: Sylvyn.4750

Sylvyn.4750

Glicko hasn’t worked well for the fact that we’ve had periods of stagnation in each tier, where large Glicko gaps between tiers could never be surmounted by the random element in place, and then Glicko could not move fast enough to account for a mass inflation or deflation of a particular server’s WvW players/guilds, so the large chasms between tiers kept these imbalanced servers locked in their tiers for far too long. It took manual manipulation by Anet to resolve the issue of severe stomps and/or boredom. The only way Glicko would work better is if all server populations were locked and could not transfer, since people can move around faster than Glicko can adjust. What’s the likelihood of that happening, though? 1up/1down solves both the stagnation issue, where the same 3 servers (or server links) fight for 2 months straight, and the sudden population swings between servers, where servers can’t get out of the wrong tier fast enough to level out the playing field.

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Posted by: Svarty.8019

Svarty.8019

I’d like to thank the developers for being open-minded enough to give this a whirl. Thanks.

Nobody at Anet loves WvW like Grouch loved PvP. That’s what we need, a WvW Grouch, but taller.

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Posted by: Korgov.7645

Korgov.7645

1-up-1-down is a simple model players can understand without a spreadsheet. That’s all the good I can say about it.

Due the population imbalances we will see lopsided biweekly repeated matchups. “Oh it’s an even week. I don’t think I will even bother to play. See you all next week.”

Sulkshine – Mesmer
This won’t hurt [Much]
Ring of Fire

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Posted by: Sylvyn.4750

Sylvyn.4750

Due the population imbalances we will see lopsided biweekly repeated matchups. “Oh it’s an even week. I don’t think I will even bother to play. See you all next week.”

You’re making the assumption that server populations remain constant…any changes could push a different server up or down as a result.

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Posted by: Liston.9708

Liston.9708

BG tier will be a crap fest with servers 2 and 3 trying to be 3. Tier 2 will be a crap fest with all the servers trying to take second or third but not first…..

YB→YB→YB→YB→YB→YB→YB→most likely YB

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Posted by: Exciton.8942

Exciton.8942

Of course it won’t solve fundamental imbalance problem of this game mode.

However, it does seem a better system than glicko at the moment.

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Posted by: Sylvyn.4750

Sylvyn.4750

BG tier will be a crap fest with servers 2 and 3 trying to be 3. Tier 2 will be a crap fest with all the servers trying to take second or third but not first…..

Mag and BG have been flipping the first position for the last year or so, with a little JQ in there, too…so it’s not all monotony up top as there are no guarantees.

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Posted by: Sylvyn.4750

Sylvyn.4750

Of course it won’t solve fundamental imbalance problem of this game mode.

However, it does seem a better system than glicko at the moment.

My thoughts as well…

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Posted by: Liston.9708

Liston.9708

BG tier will be a crap fest with servers 2 and 3 trying to be 3. Tier 2 will be a crap fest with all the servers trying to take second or third but not first…..

Mag and BG have been flipping the first position for the last year or so, with a little JQ in there, too…so it’s not all monotony up top as there are no guarantees.

but since the pips? seems BG has rolled every match (granted only 2 or is it 3). That said, I hope you are right.

YB→YB→YB→YB→YB→YB→YB→most likely YB

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Posted by: Korgov.7645

Korgov.7645

Due the population imbalances we will see lopsided biweekly repeated matchups. “Oh it’s an even week. I don’t think I will even bother to play. See you all next week.”

You’re making the assumption that server populations remain constant…any changes could push a different server up or down as a result.

There is still no migration control beyond setting a server full, transfer gem costs, and recently the loyalty pips. Stacking has happened and nothing’s been done to rebalance the server populations.

Server population size evolution is slow or stagnant, if not considering bandwagon transfers to/from a server. There is no mechanism that would gradually increase population on low tiers closing the gap to top tiers. Quite the opposite: players are transferring more up than down.

Sulkshine – Mesmer
This won’t hurt [Much]
Ring of Fire

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Posted by: Sylvyn.4750

Sylvyn.4750

Server population size evolution is slow or stagnant, if not considering bandwagon transfers to/from a server. There is no mechanism that would gradually increase population on low tiers closing the gap to top tiers. Quite the opposite: players are transferring more up than down.

I dunno…I was surprised to see a recent population stat that showed my server, GoM, was actually listed as High. Prior to the server linkings, we were at Medium. Some of that, though, is the recent activity uptick with the new rewards, and we don’t know how long that surge will last.

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Posted by: Dayra.7405

Dayra.7405

Due the population imbalances we will see lopsided biweekly repeated matchups. “Oh it’s an even week. I don’t think I will even bother to play. See you all next week.”

You’re making the assumption that server populations remain constant…any changes could push a different server up or down as a result.

There is still no migration control beyond setting a server full, transfer gem costs, and recently the loyalty pips. Stacking has happened and nothing’s been done to rebalance the server populations.

loyality pip is gone yesterday.
Now we have a Commitment pip, that requires “completing wood division the previous week”.
Unfortunately release notes are a bit lazy here, wood division on the same server or any server? I fear any server.

Ceterum censeo SFR esse delendam!

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Posted by: XenesisII.1540

XenesisII.1540

loyality pip is gone yesterday.
Now we have a Commitment pip, that requires “completing wood division the previous week”.
Unfortunately release notes are a bit lazy here, wood division on the same server or any server? I fear any server.

When you move you are penalized by not being able to earn pips until you’ve been on the server one entire matchup, which breaks the cycle of the commitment pip requirement of 100 pips the previous week.

Then once you’ve earned 100 pips with your current server you will start to earn the commitment pip the follow week, so essentially you wait 2 weeks to get it when you move.

Due the population imbalances we will see lopsided biweekly repeated matchups. “Oh it’s an even week. I don’t think I will even bother to play. See you all next week.”

You’re making the assumption that server populations remain constant…any changes could push a different server up or down as a result.

There is still no migration control beyond setting a server full, transfer gem costs, and recently the loyalty pips. Stacking has happened and nothing’s been done to rebalance the server populations.

Server population size evolution is slow or stagnant, if not considering bandwagon transfers to/from a server. There is no mechanism that would gradually increase population on low tiers closing the gap to top tiers. Quite the opposite: players are transferring more up than down.

For NA I think it’s been different since T1 broke down, the trend seemed to be a lot of guilds have moved down to mid tier servers in the last 6 months. I don’t think anyone is interested in creating T1 super servers anymore to compete with BG, other than JQ maybe.

EU has it’s own problems with the language server limitations, both in transfers and linking. At least now if any servers start a bandwagon they should be moving up every week until they hit their rightful spot, and not randomly wait to get up there by glicko fluke rolls.

Another derailing post. ^^
North Keep: One of the village residents will now flee if their home is destroyed.
“I knew it, I’m surrounded by…” – Dark Helmet

(edited by XenesisII.1540)

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Posted by: Dayra.7405

Dayra.7405

When you move you are penalized by not being able to earn pips until you’ve been on the server one entire matchup, which breaks the cycle of the commitment pip requirement of 100 pips the previous week.

yes you cannot earn pips after transer, but you can make wood before you transfer on your old server (Fri-Thu), transfer friday afternoon and be ready on the new server for the new match. So no break.

Ceterum censeo SFR esse delendam!

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Posted by: XenesisII.1540

XenesisII.1540

When you move you are penalized by not being able to earn pips until you’ve been on the server one entire matchup, which breaks the cycle of the commitment pip requirement of 100 pips the previous week.

yes you cannot earn pips after transer, but you can make wood before you transfer on your old server (Fri-Thu), transfer friday afternoon and be ready on the new server for the new match. So no break.

Do you know of players who have moved last week and earning loyalty pips this week?

As they have stated, you have to be on the new server for an entire full matchup week. So technically if you earn wood chest on that week on the old server, it means nothing the next week because you don’t earn any pips at all for the move, and since you don’t earn the minimum pips that week it breaks the cycle.

Someone can correct me on this if they moved last week and it doesn’t work like what’s stated in the patch notes, as anet’s notes have been kinda shotty.

  • Pips cannot be earned if you have recently transferred or if you do not have enough participation.
  • You must play on a world for an entire match in order to be eligible for earning pips.
Another derailing post. ^^
North Keep: One of the village residents will now flee if their home is destroyed.
“I knew it, I’m surrounded by…” – Dark Helmet

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Posted by: Strider Pj.2193

Strider Pj.2193

Someone can correct me on this if they moved last week and it doesn’t work like what’s stated in the patch notes, as anet’s notes have been kinda shotty.

  • Pips cannot be earned if you have recently transferred or if you do not have enough participation.
    • You must play on a world for an entire match in order to be eligible for earning pips.*

I think the second point clears it up for me. Playing an*entire* match on one server before pips earned. Then needing to get wood the next match, then the commitment bonus the third week.

BUT if someone misses wood (and has been on the server for weeks), then they would just need a week of getting wood to get the commitment bonus.

Hurts the jumpers some, but not the people who miss a week.