~ Seafarer’s Rest ~
When will defending become viable?
~ Seafarer’s Rest ~
Make upgrades cost badges. Means people upgrading need to switch when out of badges.
That would make defending worse….. at least with cash you can make cash while playing in WvW. Badges are not so easily come by. You seriously want to kill off any chance of defending at all? O.O
If you need a reason to defend – Wanting your server to win is quite a nice reason, is it not?
Sure. And it’s a great motivation to attack, too. So how about eliminating all rewards in WvW for attacking and defending and let the warm feelings one gets from earning or holding PPT for your server carry the game. Surely the selfless denizens of WvW would keep playing, right?
No one wants to scout, really. But people volunteer for half an hour and then get replaced, the commanders take care of that (In my server).
And how does that work for servers that have only 5 people on the map and no commander, because the one commander playing at the time has the other 9 people playing WvW trying to hold things on another map?
In a server that is united, that knows that sometimes, you gotta take a hit for the greater good, this isn’t an issue at all. It’s an issue ONLY in servers filled with selfish people where no one wants to waste a bit of time (About money, you can just ask in /map or /team chat for scout donations for siege and believe me, you’ll get enough for it).
Want to take a hit for the “greater good”? Transfer to a bottom tier server to build it up so that more than a half-dozen servers have decent coverage and the potential to win. Should I call you selfish if you won’t sacrifice for the game’s greater good?
So your problem is – Selfish people. Start by working on your community, not by trying to change the game. It’s easier and faster.
People need to grasp that the experience at different tiers are different. Know all that whining I see about lags and queues from top-tier players? Not a problem I personally have on my server and it’s easily solved by transferring to a lower tier. Does that mean I should call everyone who complains about queues and lag a selfish crybaby who can easily solve their own problem by transferring (ANet even made the fix free) or is it a legitimate complaint and problem ANet should address? Should we all just walk around saying, " We’ll, I don’t have that problem so it can’t be a real problem and must be your fault?"
(edited by Berk.8561)
Please, don’t try to twist what I said.
Rewards are nice. But WvW is more than just reward-hunting.
Also, giving half an hour to scout is not the same as transferring to a different server. I won’t transfer to another server for many reasons. One of them being, I enjoy strategic play and a committed WvW community which is focused on that. I don’t PvE/sPvP at all. And within my choice of how to play in the game I purchased, I can make sacrifices. He who doesn’t want to help his server in WvW, shouldn’t play in WvW. It’s that simple.
If there’s no commander, any player can take it to himself to ask someone to scout or scout himself and set example. I’ve seen many people do it on the night cap teams, when there weren’t enough people on. Jee, enough with the stubborn attitude. Will get you nowhere.
If you want to play in WvW, get ready to step it up if you want to win. If winning isn’t what you’re after, then don’t scout. Since the points don’t matter to you, so why keep a tower? Don’t upgrade it either. But if you do – Be sure you can defend it at least a bit or you just waste time and money.
~ Seafarer’s Rest ~
Make upgrades cost badges. Means people upgrading need to switch when out of badges.
Then everything will be paper lol. Really though, not a good idea at all. People usually hold on to badges for alts and build changes. I seriously doubt they’ll throw badges into something that will flip as soon as they leave for 20 minutes. The resources required to defend far outweigh what it takes to attack and the rewards don’t stack up either.
——
As for the guy who said they defended against 60 with 5 ACs, the only way I could see that being true is if those 60 people were too lazy to supply up and build even a single treb.
Right now, sinking time, money, and painstaking effort in upgrading and defending anything is completely pointless. You spend hours upgrading a keep, only for it to fall in less than 3 mins (well, sometimes it can take hour or more, but THAT part of the fight is usually done in the lord’s room and has nothing to do with actual upgrades). Where’s the return for all that time wasted? What incentive do I have to spend all that time and money, when I could just as easily go farm them for bags while they flip the keep, then retake it 5 mins later? Defense event “rewards” are pretty non-existent, yet offense rewards are much much higher. When is the last time you got a loot chest from defending?
IMHO attacking a properly fortified structure should always be harder than defending it. it should require tactics and planning. Not just blobbing up, throwing 2 pieces of siege down, and mowing over the point. While I’m sure the uppity “leet” players will counter-argue this (mainly because they like easy caps, which only proves my point) saying some fights can last well over an hour to cap something, but consider which parts of that fight are you spending that time in? Most always the lord’s room and all that is, is which blob is biggest and who has the most banners to throw down. There’s just no feel of skilled play in wvw anymore and I think the defense-vs-offense issue is one of the things at the heart of it.
Im not going to read any of the other posts in this thread, but, I can already tell that you are just on the wrong server. If you put time and effort into scouting/sieging up a point on blackgate you will get help when its being attacked. I used to be on gate of madness and I would defend a place and get no support, so I came to BG and it is much better over here. Good luck to you.
Walls and Gates need about 15x more HP then they currently have.
A zerg should not be able to roll through a fully upgraded keep in less then 3 minutes.
It’s impossible to defend a keep if it can be taken before defenders even realize it’s being attacked.
NPC’s should have radar. As long as the NPC is alive, all enemies within a certain range of NPC’s show up on the map. Archers and scouts have a 2000 range sight. Warriors have a 1200 range sight. They will however only aggro at their normal distances. This will make Ninja-ing things via hidded cats much more difficult.
That said, enemies still inside a keep should be able to ‘throw open’ the gate if left unmolested. That is, they can interact with the gate, starting a long channel that is interrupted if attacked. If they complete the channel. The gate is thrown open.
Vice versa, allies can close the gate by starting the same channel, only it is only half as long for defenders to close.
Honestly, defense needs help but, I understand that anet is having a difficult time figuring out a good way to change that.
For now, focus should be placed on structure improvement & possibly some kind of improvement to the ‘upgrades’ as I detailed above.
And plz, stop telling ppl to xfer servers. Everyone knows it’s available to them & if they wanted to xfer they would have done it already…
Defending will always be important for PPT. The server commanders just have to be willing to dedicate resources to the job.
That said more defensive siege wouldn’t be objected too.
Defending is broken full stop.
Me, by myself with an AC vs 10 man group:
First encounter I kill their catapult and down 2 ppl, who get rezed. They run away to a camp to collect more supplies.
I get NOTHING. Despite the fact I saved the tower, I didnt repair or kill anyone so I get nothing
Second Encounter they build a ram, which I take down and again down a player but cannot defeat.
I get nothing for saving the tower again
They proceed to PvD. I can only down 2 but they get rezed again
I get nothing for saving the tower again
So I hold 10 guys at a tower for 8-9 minutes and got nothing.
Defending blows!
Defending is broken full stop.
Me, by myself with an AC vs 10 man group:
First encounter I kill their catapult and down 2 ppl, who get rezed. They run away to a camp to collect more supplies.
I get NOTHING. Despite the fact I saved the tower, I didnt repair or kill anyone so I get nothingSecond Encounter they build a ram, which I take down and again down a player but cannot defeat.
I get nothing for saving the tower againThey proceed to PvD. I can only down 2 but they get rezed again
I get nothing for saving the tower againSo I hold 10 guys at a tower for 8-9 minutes and got nothing.
Defending blows!
Sounds like a lack of server support. If your server wanted to hold that tower they would have sent you some help. I know anytime one of our T3 towers is in trouble we will rally to it unless we have something more pressing, Like a keep etc that demands attention
They could make it so keeps and towers give more world points the longer you hold them. So hold your keep for 1 hour and it rewards 20 points per tick, after the 2nd hour it rewards 25, after the fourth, 30, the 8th 35, etc. The amount it increases would be up to the devs, but it would put more of an emphasis on holding your own keeps, and taking out fortified keeps. Ive noticed that most commanders just bypass the fortified keeps and just keep flipping paper towers/keeps.
They could make it so keeps and towers give more world points the longer you hold them. So hold your keep for 1 hour and it rewards 20 points per tick, after the 2nd hour it rewards 25, after the fourth, 30, the 8th 35, etc. The amount it increases would be up to the devs, but it would put more of an emphasis on holding your own keeps, and taking out fortified keeps. Ive noticed that most commanders just bypass the fortified keeps and just keep flipping paper towers/keeps.
This will help out the best server of the 3 even more. Free points please.
I don’t think anet will ever remove money to be the main currency for upgrades. Its one of the biggest drains.
But having a dynamic event to start an upgrade instead of money will fix the issue of players not being able to upgrade. Together with reducing player vs door so players will only use it for tagging. To motivate defending, rewards should be equalized with attacking towers and keeps. The outnumbered buff should be changed to something usefull for easier siege building and repairing. IMO
Defending is broken full stop.
Me, by myself with an AC vs 10 man group:
First encounter I kill their catapult and down 2 ppl, who get rezed. They run away to a camp to collect more supplies.
I get NOTHING. Despite the fact I saved the tower, I didnt repair or kill anyone so I get nothingSecond Encounter they build a ram, which I take down and again down a player but cannot defeat.
I get nothing for saving the tower againThey proceed to PvD. I can only down 2 but they get rezed again
I get nothing for saving the tower againSo I hold 10 guys at a tower for 8-9 minutes and got nothing.
Defending blows!
For 8-9 mins you should have done the defend event for the tower 2-3 times, so you would not have got “nothing” you would have got something. But still, downing people on your own on a single ac is pretty good, they must have been real squishy as it usually takes 2 acs to down people (because you have to get in fast/multiple hits before they retreat to heal).
Druss:When will defending become viable?
Soon™
Please, don’t try to twist what I said.
Rewards are nice. But WvW is more than just reward-hunting.
Then please don’t tell other players that they should suck it up and do without rewards if you aren’t willing to play without any rewards. It’s not fun playing for 8 hours and winding up with less gold than you started, and that can happen on an outnumbered bottom-tier server.
Also, giving half an hour to scout is not the same as transferring to a different server.
You seem to assume a bottomless pit of players who can rotate scouting duties. That’s not the case on the bottom tier servers where everyone on the map can sometimes do nothing but defend if they want to hold on to anything in their home Borderland.
I won’t transfer to another server for many reasons. One of them being, I enjoy strategic play and a committed WvW community which is focused on that. I don’t PvE/sPvP at all. And within my choice of how to play in the game I purchased, I can make sacrifices. He who doesn’t want to help his server in WvW, shouldn’t play in WvW. It’s that simple.
In other words, your desire to sacrifice for the greater good is limited and you don’t want to change the way you are doing things because you like doing them that way.
If there’s no commander, any player can take it to himself to ask someone to scout or scout himself and set example. I’ve seen many people do it on the night cap teams, when there weren’t enough people on. Jee, enough with the stubborn attitude. Will get you nowhere.
At the bottom tier, it’s not just a problem nightcap teams face. A whole day can be like that. A whole week can be like that. I know you don’t care because it’s not a problem you have and you also seem to lack the imagination to understand that anyone could have preferences or experiences different from your own.
If you want to play in WvW, get ready to step it up if you want to win. If winning isn’t what you’re after, then don’t scout. Since the points don’t matter to you, so why keep a tower? Don’t upgrade it either. But if you do – Be sure you can defend it at least a bit or you just waste time and money.
You really can’t imagine a server being unable to win despite stepping it up and making sacrifices because the match-up is simply too unbalanced against the server, can you?
Right now, sinking time, money, and painstaking effort in upgrading and defending anything is completely pointless. You spend hours upgrading a keep, only for it to fall in less than 3 mins (well, sometimes it can take hour or more, but THAT part of the fight is usually done in the lord’s room and has nothing to do with actual upgrades). Where’s the return for all that time wasted? What incentive do I have to spend all that time and money, when I could just as easily go farm them for bags while they flip the keep, then retake it 5 mins later? Defense event “rewards” are pretty non-existent, yet offense rewards are much much higher. When is the last time you got a loot chest from defending?
IMHO attacking a properly fortified structure should always be harder than defending it. it should require tactics and planning. Not just blobbing up, throwing 2 pieces of siege down, and mowing over the point. While I’m sure the uppity “leet” players will counter-argue this (mainly because they like easy caps, which only proves my point) saying some fights can last well over an hour to cap something, but consider which parts of that fight are you spending that time in? Most always the lord’s room and all that is, is which blob is biggest and who has the most banners to throw down. There’s just no feel of skilled play in wvw anymore and I think the defense-vs-offense issue is one of the things at the heart of it.
I’ve said it before and I will say it again since this thread subject finally has the attention that we needed before anyone ever started to WvW.
Defending costs money.
It costs money two ways.
Besides the obvious cost of (first cost) siege and the threat of losing any boons (ahem, bloodlust) when one, two or even several players defend a tower or keep, I believe the more important issue is that the players who graciously (and BOY is it ever a gracious thing to defend right now!) defend a tower or keep, lose out on gold, experience, ascended loot and karma (did I miss anything? sorry if I did,). (second and more draining cost)
I think not having a way to “reward” players is one of the biggest bars to having more people in WvW – it’s boring to defend
…and oh please, don’t tell me about the kitten “you defended xxx” after the tick is over and is worth it… it isn’t and it doesn’t come close to the players who are running in a zerg or fighting full fields and getting loot bags from their competitors.
Rather spend badges than gold tbh. And it all depends on the amount. First tier could be 10 badges, second tier 25, final tier 50.
By the time your hitting third tier, your defence should be solid. You would earn back those 35 badges very quickly in a night. From one tower in EOTM. Badges rather than gold any day.
Warrior
Far Shiverpeaks
I think not having a way to “reward” players is one of the biggest bars to having more people in WvW – it’s boring to defend
It can be worse than boring. In unbalanced match-ups, it can seem utterly futile because of how quickly things have fallen. More than once, I’ve spent a day on a weekend speeding dolyaks, triggering upgrades, building siege, scouting for enemies, and so on and when I return from taking an hour or two to eat dinner and help give my kids a bath, I’ll be lucky if the worst that’s happened is that the siege has all expired. Often, the T3 towers will have been flipped. When the matchup is particularly bad, it will get flipped while I’m sitting in it, even when everyone else on the map shows up to help defend. And during the really mismatched weeks, the enemy will simply sweep their zerg around the maps like the hand on a clock taking whatever they want and I’ll be lucky to get anything beyond reinforced walls done, even if I increase supply deliveries and personally speed up every dolyak that leaves the supply camp. But all of these complaints are alien to people in other tiers who don’t have these problems.
…and oh please, don’t tell me about the kitten “you defended xxx” after the tick is over and is worth it… it isn’t and it doesn’t come close to the players who are running in a zerg or fighting full fields and getting loot bags from their competitors.
Yeah, it’s always great fun to hear about how many bags your zerg is getting in map chat or TeamSpeak while you are sitting in a tower or keep making sure the enemy doesn’t flash-flip it before it can be defended. And of course they are earning a lot more WXP, too.
I don’t expect defending to be lucrative. It can’t be. If the rewards matched those for attacking, you’d see tons of bots and people Akitten in defensive positions cashing in on it. The problem is that it costs money to play defensive because it costs money to trigger upgrades and can cost money to get siege blueprints. It’s fine if ANet doesn’t want to compensate the player in the gold. But players can be compensated in WXP or karma instead.
One suggestion I’ve made is to give the player who triggers an upgrade a karma reward when the upgrade completes, so that there is no incentive to trigger upgrades that won’t or can’t complete and every incentive to make sure they do complete.
Another suggestion I’ve given was to base the points for a camp, tower, keep, or castle on how upgraded it is so that a player can give their server a PPT benefit for doing upgrades. I suggested:
Camp: 1 point + 1 point per upgrade (Max 5 points)
Tower: 3 points + 1 points per upgrade (Max 15 points)
Keep: 6 points + 2 points per upgrade (Max 30 points)
SMC: 9 points + 3 points per upgrade (Max 45 points)
(This would also provide incentive to try to prevent upgrades and to take fully upgraded structures.)
Finally, I think there is one tower that’s not boring for me to defend. Quentin Lake.
Why isn’t Quentin Lake boring to defend? Because there is a Hylek village behind the tower that’s well within ballista range of the platform by the lord’s room I drop a ballista up there and with it, I can take the Hylek camp for my team if it’s available by killing Krait from inside the tower. If our opponents have taken the Hylek, I can kill the Hylek from the tower and neutralize the camp. And both cases, I can also snipe enemies that inevitably show up to take or neutralize the Hylek and have killed quite a few that way. In short, there is something for me to shoot and kill from there and events I can do from inside the tower. I’ve found no other location that comes close. The best a few towers and camps can offer are some creatures that are close enough to kill, but there aren’t enough of them and there is rarely any sort of event associated with them (I guess I could probably kill mosquitoes from Klovan — maybe I’ll give that a try).
So one solution to boredom is to put creatures and events near enough to towers so that those watching them have something to do while they are waiting.