Guild Wars 2

Debuff for too many people in the range, make it happen ANet!!!

What song is that? hahah I love it!

As long as the game type, like WvW, is geared towards casuals the more hardcore of us are going to become more and more frustrated. It’s been happening for a long time and the ZvZ Meta is creating a more casual friendly mindset. Zergs don’t take skill, casuals don’t want to learn skill, they want to hotjoin and win by pressing 1.

@OP:

I don’t have enough thumbs to up this.

+9001

/Going to reserve a post here where I will suggest my ideas to help fix/aleviate this issue, as a thread solely for complaining is not productive. But first I want to read the opinion of other people.

Also that video has no intent of being disrespectful to AM or hating on them, they are free to do what they want and they said they had fun doing it. The video does not show what is common atm but simply what is possible, or impossible by game limitations, it serves to simply demonstrate my point.

Meh, Jackie…
1. All three deaths (was it 3?) in this video were due to horrible positioning decisions. Mainly on elem part but also on their raid’s RL part too.
2. It’s not like you don’t expect lags in a certain point of particular matchup. So you gear and act as a player (and even more importantly as a raid) accordingly. “Blobbadon Mouth”, as they say, eh? Should give you an idea, right?..
3. Holy cow, why do you even accept these wide open field battles? There’s a lot of choke points and “safe zones” near the strategic objectives your opponents are after. USE THEM!
4. As our raid leader says, “I can’t use my skills due to the lag” is not an excuse, that’s an aggravation.
4.1 You know there will be a lag
4.2 You know enemy will have same lag
4.3 What are you complaining about then?? ADAPT!

I’m not saying lag is fine, it is terrible experience. But the video makes an impression of a person that says “that’s how I play this game and I don’t care, whatever happens it is the game that should adapt to my play style, not the other way around!”

Really?..

Downhill and fast.

Yaro.3251:

4.3 What are you complaining about then?? ADAPT!

I think the point is another.

That players who adapted are the ones zoneblobbing nigthcapping and hugging keeps and running away from fights – unless outnumbering 3:1 – not involving AC’s.

The problem is that all of this that has been promoted by Anet patches over and over is not fun, has no room for skill or guilds, it’s boring as hell and overall, make you want to kick a quaggan so hard to leave the game – look how many PvP/WvW guilds already disbanded over this 10 months.

AndrewSX.3794:

Yaro.3251:

4.3 What are you complaining about then?? ADAPT!

I think the point is another.

That players who adapted are the ones zoneblobbing nigthcapping and hugging keeps and running away from fights – unless outnumbering 3:1 – not involving AC’s.

The problem is that all of this that has been promoted by Anet patches over and over is not fun, has no room for skill or guilds, it’s boring as hell and overall, make you want to kick a quaggan so hard to leave the game – look how many PvP/WvW guilds already disbanded over this 10 months.

To some extent I would agree with that. Some parts of every patch note make you go “O_o wut?”. Nonetheless, I was addressing particular points of bad positionoing and lack of flexibility that were presented as somehow a valid argument.

If you are not willing to blob as a counter to enemy blob, there’s still a number of options. Landscape and game mechanics leave space for something smarter than “Oh yeah? Take this: /m Tagged, all map on me!”

Sure we can come up with more coherent and sane message to Anet, can we?..

Well, i don’t think that has much sense keep arguing about the vid then – it’s the message the thing to talk about.

Don’t know where GW2 is going. But I know where I am…ESO.

But seriously, it appears Anet has made the decision that WvW is a casual game mode. The emphasis on siege and zerging supports this.

We knew GW2 PvE was aimed at the casual market. But on the otherhand, sPvP was not (it has esport aspirations). It was never clear where they thought WvW fit, but it appears they are thinking “casual” now

I think this is a big mistake on Anet’s part. All the dedicated guilds that make PvP a living thing are going to leave when other games come out. This will leave WvW as a stagnant game mode for part-timers.

Now, maybe Anet has run the math, and financially, casual WvW makes the most sense for them. Sure opens up an opportunity for other games though.

Meh I’m sure the siege brain deads can find a similar entertaining game on their iphone.

The game favors zergs and casuals. Will they keep the game afloat? That remains to be seen when ppl start leaving and new MMOs come out. Oh wait..people are already leaving.

Yaro.3251:

AndrewSX.3794:

Yaro.3251:

4.3 What are you complaining about then?? ADAPT!

I think the point is another.

That players who adapted are the ones zoneblobbing nigthcapping and hugging keeps and running away from fights – unless outnumbering 3:1 – not involving AC’s.

The problem is that all of this that has been promoted by Anet patches over and over is not fun, has no room for skill or guilds, it’s boring as hell and overall, make you want to kick a quaggan so hard to leave the game – look how many PvP/WvW guilds already disbanded over this 10 months.

To some extent I would agree with that. Some parts of every patch note make you go “O_o wut?”. Nonetheless, I was addressing particular points of bad positionoing and lack of flexibility that were presented as somehow a valid argument.

If you are not willing to blob as a counter to enemy blob, there’s still a number of options. Landscape and game mechanics leave space for something smarter than “Oh yeah? Take this: /m Tagged, all map on me!”

Sure we can come up with more coherent and sane message to Anet, can we?..

You are failing to link the entire argument together in a coherent way and are simply not understanding that this is a self-propagating problem that will not go away and is not counterable.

These blobs can be engaged from almost any angle at any time, their entire approach is not one of huge skill or of great tactics, its of numbers and quantity. If you attempt to use a chokepoint to counter them then you simply down the first push (20 people) while the other 80 generally get through the choke onto you. If you attempt to use superior movement then you have to contend with them having far more CC and movement capabilities than you since they have more people able to burn their cooldowns – and if the above wasn’t a bad enough position to be in alone, you have the lag, meaning that those with the most autoattacks in a designated area wins, and guess who that would be? Yep! The side with the most numbers.

Having a better engagement, having more flexibility or any other skill that you may wish to throw at the game becomes a meaningless mess when you arrive at the situation of fighting a group like in the video. This is not something that can be adapted to in the current game other than to run around with your own server blob and create even worse lag. Hopefully this clears up the misunderstanding you have.

Aneu.1748:

Yaro.3251:

AndrewSX.3794:

Yaro.3251:

4.3 What are you complaining about then?? ADAPT!

I think the point is another.

That players who adapted are the ones zoneblobbing nigthcapping and hugging keeps and running away from fights – unless outnumbering 3:1 – not involving AC’s.

The problem is that all of this that has been promoted by Anet patches over and over is not fun, has no room for skill or guilds, it’s boring as hell and overall, make you want to kick a quaggan so hard to leave the game – look how many PvP/WvW guilds already disbanded over this 10 months.

To some extent I would agree with that. Some parts of every patch note make you go “O_o wut?”. Nonetheless, I was addressing particular points of bad positionoing and lack of flexibility that were presented as somehow a valid argument.

If you are not willing to blob as a counter to enemy blob, there’s still a number of options. Landscape and game mechanics leave space for something smarter than “Oh yeah? Take this: /m Tagged, all map on me!”

Sure we can come up with more coherent and sane message to Anet, can we?..

You are failing to link the entire argument together in a coherent way and are simply not understanding that this is a self-propagating problem that will not go away and is not counterable.

I wasn’t even attempting to. I’m all for “an argument at large”, just thought that some of premises presented above were questionable.

These blobs can be engaged from almost any angle at any time, their entire approach is not one of huge skill or of great tactics, its of numbers and quantity. If you attempt to use a chokepoint to counter them then you simply down the first push (20 people) while the other 80 generally get through the choke onto you.

Choke point, even if it’s not “gg” point, is just a “point” in battle. Switch places with enemy, relative to this point or don’t use what is a “soft” choke point in these circumstances, find a “hard” one or even a safe zone like [not yet destroyed] tower/keep gates. There’s a whole story to be told about wearing bigger blobs down.

If you attempt to use superior movement then you have to contend with them having far more CC and movement capabilities than you since they have more people able to burn their cooldowns

Sure, movement alone may not give you the cake, that’s why I was asking why even accept wide open field battles in kinds of situations like in abovementioned video.

and if the above wasn’t a bad enough position to be in alone, you have the lag, meaning that those with the most autoattacks in a designated area wins, and guess who that would be? Yep! The side with the most numbers.

Yeah, right.
I’ll only say this: Lag plays for more organized groups no matter the numbers.

Having a better engagement, having more flexibility or any other skill that you may wish to throw at the game becomes a meaningless mess when you arrive at the situation of fighting a group like in the video.

That depends on your approach, which is btw my entire argument.

This is not something that can be adapted to in the current game other than to run around with your own server blob and create even worse lag.

Sure it is.
It is something that can be countered to the extent when you at least saying “Yeah, we wiped in the end, but we took 10x of them with us. And not once”, not “Oh well, they steamrolled us, whatchagonnadotheyblobkings”.

Hopefully this clears up the misunderstanding you have.

If I had one, I still have it.

I agree, we can fight maybe 2 guilds once in open field with similar numbers with maybe a 5 -/+ difference for each side. After the group has been defeated, we usually spend 2-3 hours sieging bay or garrison to get inside lord room for a 10 minute fight. By the time this is over, it is time to go to sleep or the enemy leaves the map.

Edit: After watching the video, have to say it looks a lot similar. I have a dream where every guild who wants to play for open field pvp would pick 4-5 servers and move there and just have fun.

Better tools to organize and maximize player-power projection would end the era of the Megazerg. Having three organised zergs (say 20, 20, and 60) would always be much more effective than one 100 person megazerg. The problem is Anet won’t give us the tools to do this effectively.

Give commanders color tags that can be toggled public and private and this would end. That Anet hasn’t done this already is pure nonsense.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/wuv/wuv/Different-Color-Commander-Tags-Private-Tags/first#post2395588

Yaro.3251:

Yeah, right.
I’ll only say this: Lag plays for more organized groups no matter the numbers.

What?? are you really saying that a situation that you can’t micro your class at all, all you can do is move and hit auto attack, in this kind of situation, that the more organized guild have the upper hand against 4x their numbers?

Really?

Sorry, but a competent guild doesnt want a lag fight, because its not only unsatisfying, but because its not advantageous for them to fight in an environment where they can’t perform to the maximum of their abilities, therefore no lag doesn’t favor competent groups, its completely the other way around.

Hard to say. A net did say they were tossing around idea to make your role in WvW more defined. The blob vs blob isn’t always like that. When you roam you dodge all that and engage in smaller scale conflict.

Yaro.3251:

Meh, Jackie…
1. All three deaths (was it 3?) in this video were due to horrible positioning decisions. Mainly on elem part but also on their raid’s RL part too.
2. It’s not like you don’t expect lags in a certain point of particular matchup. So you gear and act as a player (and even more importantly as a raid) accordingly. “Blobbadon Mouth”, as they say, eh? Should give you an idea, right?..
3. Holy cow, why do you even accept these wide open field battles? There’s a lot of choke points and “safe zones” near the strategic objectives your opponents are after. USE THEM!
4. As our raid leader says, “I can’t use my skills due to the lag” is not an excuse, that’s an aggravation.
4.1 You know there will be a lag
4.2 You know enemy will have same lag
4.3 What are you complaining about then?? ADAPT!

I’m not saying lag is fine, it is terrible experience. But the video makes an impression of a person that says “that’s how I play this game and I don’t care, whatever happens it is the game that should adapt to my play style, not the other way around!”

Really?..

1. My positioning is fairly spot on, I am the player in question who was playing the elementalist. You are comparing a 100 man raid all on comms (AM admitted they had 100 on comms) led by a commander. All they have to do is put us in combat and have 50+ stay out of combat and already I cannot reposition as fast as they move in. I would love to see how you would have positioned, but I doubt you can come up with much better, anyways bringing this to a discussion of my skill is ridiculous. I am not going to elaborate further into this as it feels like you just feel like having a jab at votf or me to pretend you have some super secret to skill.

2. My gear is fairly well suited, would you like that I run over 20k hp as an elementalist, please tell me where I am then going to find the damage to kill such numbers even if I may survive it for a few seconds longer?

3. We accept these fights because it is all there was. The entire AM server is running on a single icon, 100 players on comms. Fort ranik is nowhere to be found. The AM commander was smart as well, if the terrain is not favorable he will simply walk away. So please tell me, what should we do? They wont engage if we have terrain advantage, we cant win if we dont have terrain advantage (even with, no 25 man raid in this game can possibly kill that). The result is nobody fights? WOW SOUNDS LIKE SO MUCH FUN.

4. "As our raid leader says, “I can’t use my skills due to the lag” is not an excuse, that’s an aggravation."
Says a member from the guild who transfered reluctauntly off desolation due to skill lag. And now you are going to tell me to not complain? Or that because I cannot effectively drop damage to kill the enemy its not an excuse? Again, you pretend like you have some high road of skill which only GH possess but this is not at all the case. If I cant use my skills it is an excuse. It has always been, why do you think major competitions are held on LAN and not over the internet. I cant even begin to describe how silly that comment by you is.

4.3 What are you complaining about then?? ADAPT!

Adapt what? Lol. Are you trolling me? What is the solution? Bring more players? Since you were so willing to have a jab at my guild/positioning. How did you guys adapt? I remember on desolation a certain player would pm me and encourage me to blob to counter the enemy zergs post wexp patch. Said it could be justified because they were doing it, so we should do it as well. This is adapting? What you mean is bring 100 players of my own and make the game absolutely unplayable. But hey at least you won…. absolutely nothing, thats what you won.

My question is, what is the point? If the means to victory is to destroy all pleasure ascertained from playing the game, then why strive for victory in the first place, what exactly are you competing for? Or are you so disillusioned that you will accept whatever Anet feeds to you?

I am adapting, I am adapting by asking Anet to fix the game and make it playable.

You make fun of me for wanting the game to play by my style. Yet by virtue of the enemy stacking the whole server on an icon, I am forced to play by their style.
Logic? None.

Edit: I also noticed you said lag plays in the favor of the organized force. No.

Do you know what makes organized forces? Skill. Do you know what makes skill? Finnese. The way I ground target a skill, the location I drop it in, the timing I use it at, the efficiency I can put out all my damage, these are the aspects that define me as a superior player over a random zergling. All those qualities are diminished when lag comes in, which artificially closes the skill gap. 100 players spamming “1” will do more damage than 30 spamming “1”. Its very simple math.

The funny thing is (and I agree with your post Jackie); VoTF are one of the larger guilds. 30 is quite sizeable and flexible. We run 10-15 and it’s becoming painful.

100v30, 80v15. It doesn’t matter. It’s doesn’t matter about the chokes you find, your positioning, your buffs, your group comp, your teamplay or your quality; maths wins. You’ll hold your own for a while, you’ll do well, and in the end the push will come and you will wipe. Blobs don’t even stomp; by the time you’ve been rolled over you’re dead. Not downed, dead. The largest hit you took? 500-ish. When an entire game mechanic (and one that hugely favours massive groups anyway) is completely ignored, you know something is off.

80-100 people need nothing more than autos. 15 people need utilities. The arguments of “yes but the blob has skill lag too!!1!” is overly obtuse Yaro and i’m sure you’re smart enough to work out why… the autos fire; the heals lag.

Anet are smart enough to address this; Devon, swoop in here and throw us a bone please. Is this an internal concern and under discussion, or is blobbing on this scale expected and working as intended?

Blobbing is a problem. A problem that we as players largely created. At least as far as the NA scene goes.

Since the release of GW2 players and guilds have been transferring off losing servers to better servers. In the vast majority of cases players transferred to servers of near the same tier or a higher tier.

As months passed WvW guilds started transferring to servers for “the fights”, and the often unstated reason of recruitment(WvW guilds need new recruits which are hard to find on servers that don’t WvW). This trend just sped up the process of consolidation of WvW populations onto a few servers.

I’ve been playing since release, I started on Darkhaven, at the bottom of the ladder more or less. I met a lot of people, and keep in touch with a lot of people. 90%+ of the people and active WvW guilds I knew on low tier servers are now stacked on the top 6 NA servers. This process is still continuing, and by the end of summer (barring some sort of internal schism) JQ, SOR, BG will have picked up even more players, and no other server in NA will ever be able to compete. And blobbing will be a problem for the top three servers alone.

The problems of blobbing, and the lag that goes with it go hand in hand with we the players having stacked a handful of servers.

It would be nice if Anet introduced some in-game mechanics to deal with blobs, and beefed up their servers to handle the lag. But the far more viable solution is to somehow incentivize de-stacking the servers and spreading the hardcore WvW players out across all servers. Blobbing and lag won’t matter at that point.

its heading to the mythical land of failed mmos (at least WvW, not sure about pve cause I never do it)

edit: no pun intended with the mythic reference

Everyone plays to win, simple truth.

People who say they “play for the fights” say that and do this because they cannot win and are trying to preserve some pride.

In the rare cases of VoTF/RG and other WvW sPvWvWvPvGvG guilds the game just hasn’t catered yet for your style of “Playing to win”. NA T1 is blob central, but most of us enjoy that kind of game play there’s nothing more satisfying wiping a map queue with less or half their numbers your kitten throbs hard.

Until GvG is implemented WvW meta will continue to bore you guys, but I have no doubt when it is, you guys will probably be the ones ruining it for the others as a reverse blob effect.

Also as to the “blobbing” I feel the reverse will happen, wait it out, I’m sure once the extended honeymoon period of this game ends you will see a lot more smaller skirmishes and less OP 24/7 coverage due to natural attrition, which unfortunately takes time unless you try stack out the lowest servers ie. ET FC AR HoD or EU: Vabbi FoW Blacktide but I’m sure they wouldn’t want it.

Jackie.1829 for president.

It won’t let me thumbs up the OP, so I’ll do it IRL. This is pretty much why WvW is fail. Does Anet have eyes to see this and if so, will they ever bother doing anything about it? I have my doubts. They only want to integrate time sinks to keep people in the game, not to improve the game.

Caliburn.1845:

It would be nice if Anet introduced some in-game mechanics to deal with blobs, and beefed up their servers to handle the lag. But the far more viable solution is to somehow incentivize de-stacking the servers and spreading the hardcore WvW players out across all servers. Blobbing and lag won’t matter at that point.

Probably the only way to do it now is to bring back free transfers but then that may go the other way.

Once other games come out the problem will take care of itself because most of the major WvW guilds will leave the game.

morrolan.9608:

Caliburn.1845:

It would be nice if Anet introduced some in-game mechanics to deal with blobs, and beefed up their servers to handle the lag. But the far more viable solution is to somehow incentivize de-stacking the servers and spreading the hardcore WvW players out across all servers. Blobbing and lag won’t matter at that point.

Probably the only way to do it now is to bring back free transfers but then that may go the other way.

Once other games come out the problem will take care of itself because most of the major WvW guilds will leave the game.

Free transfers will promote further stacking in the top tiers. If they restricted it to medium servers, nothing will change in NA and it will destroy some of the top EU servers (like it did the last time). Free transfers are not the answer.

And yea, once the next big thing comes out, this problem will be over since no one will be playing anyway

Sharpoon.8197:

morrolan.9608:

Caliburn.1845:

It would be nice if Anet introduced some in-game mechanics to deal with blobs, and beefed up their servers to handle the lag. But the far more viable solution is to somehow incentivize de-stacking the servers and spreading the hardcore WvW players out across all servers. Blobbing and lag won’t matter at that point.

Probably the only way to do it now is to bring back free transfers but then that may go the other way.

Once other games come out the problem will take care of itself because most of the major WvW guilds will leave the game.

Free transfers will promote further stacking in the top tiers. If they restricted it to medium servers, nothing will change in NA and it will destroy some of the top EU servers (like it did the last time). Free transfers are not the answer.

And yea, once the next big thing comes out, this problem will be over since no one will be playing anyway

Feels like the next big thing is a long way off right now. I used to be torn between multiple games that were being released around the same time. Now I just see a bunch of trash games with no real potential for longevity.

But yeah, free transfers would have the opposite effect and just make things worse.

Jackie.1829:

My positioning is fairly spot on, I am the player in question who was playing the elementalist. You are comparing a 100 man raid all on comms (AM admitted they had 100 on comms) led by a commander. All they have to do is put us in combat and have 50+ stay out of combat and already I cannot reposition as fast as they move in. I would love to see how you would have positioned, but I doubt you can come up with much better, anyways bringing this to a discussion of my skill is ridiculous. I am not going to elaborate further into this as it feels like you just feel like having a jab at votf or me to pretend you have some super secret to skill.

I’m sorry if it sounds like I have a go at VoTF, I’m not. If anything, I think VoTF is one of few greatest open field guilds out there in this game.
And yeah, positioning was pretty cool until these few moments where you’ve decided to end your life by rushing in or staying in the way channeling. Anyway, I don’t see the need to go further this route either.

My gear is fairly well suited

That was more like general remark on my part, not anything about your ele gear specifically.

We accept these fights because it is all there was.

There’s still objectives they are after, and there’s a lot of unavoidable chokes there.

“As our raid leader says, “I can’t use my skills due to the lag” is not an excuse, that’s an aggravation."
Says a member from the guild who transfered reluctauntly off desolation due to skill lag. And now you are going to tell me to not complain? Or that because I cannot effectively drop damage to kill the enemy its not an excuse? Again, you pretend like you have some high road of skill which only GH possess but this is not at all the case. If I cant use my skills it is an excuse. It has always been, why do you think major competitions are held on LAN and not over the internet. I cant even begin to describe how silly that comment by you is.

Why not, please begin to describe. Or you already did?
There’s a couple of points I’d like to address here:
1. Yeah, we’ve transferred off Deso eventually, but that wasn’t a decision made based on just a week of match up against blob-heavy server. To reiterate, we are on the same page regarding lags. They are not fun, they should not be happening. It doesn’t however have anything to do with my quote. Being not able to drop damage effectively is probably an excuse (though enemy has same problem but nvm), running right through the blob and then saying “wtf the lag” while trying to get 4 in downed state going – isn’t.
2. I’m not pretending to be anything and for sure I’m not talking as a guild rep. That’s all’s just my personal opinion which should be judged by its face value.
3. It never been. What excuse was is a bigger difference in lag and ping that different opponents have while playing over internet. When connection characteristics are the same for all sides, it cannot be an excuse per se. LAN gives that and also lowers the lag to minimum which is great too since it allows for more skill and micro and variety. But I’m walking into swamp of obviousness here.

Adapt what? Lol. Are you trolling me? What is the solution?

Solution is to get Anet to fix all this mess. Or stop playing. Or blob on your own. Or try to come up with tactics that will get you the win. All kinds of stuff to choose from.

Again, you seem to be missing what am I getting at. I’m not arguing against your whole argument, that’d be silly. I just saw something in your video I did want to comment on, so I did. Basically what I’m saying is that you imo are arguing for a good thing with bad evidence. Is it better this way?

You make fun of me for wanting the game to play by my style. Yet by virtue of the enemy stacking the whole server on an icon, I am forced to play by their style.
Logic? None.

What are you talking about? “The world won’t play by my rules, I have to play by world’s rules. Logic? None.”
It’s like… whuuuut? They are more so they dictate the rules, that’s where logic is, if you really was after my answer.

P.S. Had to cut down quotes since it went over post limit, wow.

Edit: I also noticed you said lag plays in the favor of the organized force. No

I knew that was kind of a controversial one. Believe or not, but that’s what my experience is . Of course it may look different for different classes, and I main a guardian which is lag/blob-friendly class, but for me taking on blobs with lags was in general distinctively easier than without lag. It is also boring of course and dumb and not fun and (insert more negative characteristics), but that’s how it is for me. You also seem to be taking positioning here completely out of picture for some reason.

I’m actually quite surprised you would say that Yaro. Pretty much everyone I have ever spoken to about the topic has said skill lag favors numbers over skill. Your the first person I’ve ever seen who has said otherwise. Why do you think it is better for an organized smaller group?

Because lag shuts down inexperienced/less organized. Or should I say, affects them more. Positioning, which I’m talking a lot about, is one of key factors here. They do not pay attention to position so they take a lot of unnecessary damage and their only hope is their heal and other defensive skills. That’s what gets affected by lag the most.

It’s like fighting huge elephant that is blind. Wild swings flying all around the place and god forbid you get hit by one of those. But in reality this elephant is pretty vulnerable.

I’m generalizing here of course, it’s not THAT simple most of the time, but you should get the idea.

Yaro, I think you are missing the point massively here.

What you are essentially doing is critiquing VOTF’s WvW play style from the video that was posted.

That isn’t the issue. If they got wiped/killed from superior tactics then that is just a question of strategy and timing on their part which is within player control.

What is outside if their control is that fact that when they engage with an enemy, the game lags in both graphics (bad design) and skill usage (bad servers). You can have all the skill and coordination in the world, if you are unable to put that in to practice because the game is broken (yes broken, it doesn’t behave as it is supposed to) then what is the point of being organised at all?

They are not asking Anet or you to help them play better, they are asking Anet to fix a problem that is broken so they can play the game as it was intended to be played.

If your car was broken would you take it to get it repaired? or by your logic would you leave it to rot while you take the bus indefinitely and call it “adapting”?

huwpewpew.6075:

They are not asking Anet or you to help them play better, they are asking Anet to fix a problem that is broken so they can play the game as it was intended to be played.

Then they should choose different video as an evidence.

I’m not missing the overall point of original message and I’m not attacking it in any way. I told several times here that I agree with it.

Yaro.3251:

huwpewpew.6075:

They are not asking Anet or you to help them play better, they are asking Anet to fix a problem that is broken so they can play the game as it was intended to be played.

Then they should choose different video as an evidence.

I’m not missing the overall point of original message and I’m not attacking it in any way. I told several times here that I agree with it.

Only thing I got from the OP was it sounded he’s been playing GW2 everyday since release and now is feeling the burnout.

If GW2 was a monthly sub game I’d probably jump on his bandwagon as well. That said, flaws and all, still a pretty good game and have gotten my moneys worth.

Yaro.3251:

huwpewpew.6075:

They are not asking Anet or you to help them play better, they are asking Anet to fix a problem that is broken so they can play the game as it was intended to be played.

Then they should choose different video as an evidence.

I’m not missing the overall point of original message and I’m not attacking it in any way. I told several times here that I agree with it.

It shows the FPS and skill lag quite clearly, It clearly shows the effects of zerging and server/design issues.

I’m not quite sure what this video is missing to be more suitable.

Pretty much. That’s what I’ve been saying for the last 10 months.
WvW promotes nothing but zerg gameplay.

And then there’s the lag, oh dear god.
I have a fairly decent PC, not the best one, not the worst one, and I’m playing with the lowest WvW settings. More than 40 people on screen – no more than 10 FPS.

Unorganized Group in a Normal fight: press 1
Unorganized Group in a Lag Fight: press 1

Organized Group in a Normal fight: Rotation of utilities, leaps, knockdowns, stuns, stun breaks, water fields, blast finishers, positioning on and on
Organized Group in a Lag fight: press 1

See the issue?

Btw Jackie, from the looks of it you seem to have WvW Character Limit option set pretty high. Made a world of difference in terms of fps for me when I lowered that one. I’m sitting on GTX680 and i7@4675MHz, but fps would hit the floor anyway during large fights even with everyone on the screen as simple models, when character limit was set too high.

huwpewpew.6075:

I’m not quite sure what this video is missing to be more suitable.

So basically you want me to run everything I said already in this thread again? Thanks, not interested.

My video was never meant to be a display of skill, those are infact the 5 worst fights we engaged in of the night, and were uploaded for that reason, to demonstrate the adverse impact of that zerg.

On the flip side I could link, also vs AM. Ignore the garrison fight as we could never completely kill 100 players in a keep with 25. Watch 10-20 mins for wiping an AM zerg in the open field.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGkzYDEG194

The difference? There is a few actually. I dont know if AM was all on comms at the same time, they seemed less organized. There was no skill lag, why? I dont know. Consistency isnt something Anets servers are very famous for.

And… there isnt so much fps lag. Do you know why I got fps lag in the first video? AM decided to do a ranger event. Rangers have pets. Imagine 100 players. Now add on pets, minions, clones. All of a sudden we have 150+ character models. THAT is what my video was supposed to demonstrate. At one point in vale supply camp there is a fight where AM covers the surface area of the supply camp from the entrance to the choke behind the house at the back. We used a choke there… fat lot of good that did us, I can cast about 3-5 abilities in the time they push through (they used stability, like I said, they were on comms, it was an organized 100 players, we cannot CC that).

Finally, no matter what we sit here and discuss about how lag affects the user experience. I cast a lava font with the cast time and animation of a meteor shower, I also did an auto attack with the cast time and animation of meteor shower, all while I could never cast meteor shower. I doubt this is intended by Arenanet. The servers are under such incredibly stress that it is capable of mixing skills in an attempt to calculate execution. This is a game flaw, I am NOT going to play around this, there are NO cast bars which indicate WHICH skill I am casting, I can only INFER by ANIMATION, so when the wrong animations begin to display, I dont even know what my OWN character is doing before its too late

Please dont tell me to play around this. My video is perfect evidence of why the game cannot handle such fights, why? Because VoTF never blobbed to retaliate. We had a single raid of 25-30 players and never once a pug in open field fights. Yet our guild raid lagged while fighting against a single raid entity. That is rare no matter what wvw you play. Usually lag kicks in when a 3rd server comes, or you are in a keep, or you are 2 allied guilds about to engage together, rarely do you ever lag as a single raid. So the video is exactly what I would show to Anet, it is a demonstration that is possible for a single server to create such a density of players that the game cannot be played within their vicinity.

As for bad zergs eating damage out of position while lagging. What damage? I cant even swap into fire attunement in 1 of the fights, why does their positioning matter if I cant drop damage anyways? Sorry but the lag hurts the organized force harder because as I said, it artificially closes the skill gap. My skill is less a factor if the game dictates how I must play by server latency.

I am not sure how I can explain to you why lag that effects both does not effect both to the same capacity. To those who play GW1 I can say, imagine a spike guild vs an interupt/pressure guild. If the game is lagging, the spike guild can still hit all their skills together for a spike effect, there will just be a general delay on the entire spike itself. Now the interupt/pressure base guild has to interupt the enemy skills, but the lag is actually a huge factor because there is more latency than time available to interupt the skills. Also the spike will occur faster than the monks are able to heal due to latency. Lets take MOBAs for example. 2 players are lagging in mid lane, 1 is playing a skill shot champ, the other is playing a target based class. Who is going to get hurt more from the same lag? The skill shot based class because they need to aim their skills with proper timing, lag hurts this.

Basically AM zerg was just running into us spamming 1, lag doesnt influence this.

Now I need to cast the proper static fields, ice fields and all damage abilities. I do this with fast cast for faster skill usage, but when my fps drops its harder to keep track of my cursor without easy mode green circles to carry me, this is a direct result of my camera rotating slower due to fps lag, an issue I will never have in spvp or gvg. I need to do thinks like decide where there is a safe spot for me to lightning flash, I need to also rotate my camera to do quick lightning flashes, again something I cant do at 6 fps. I can give tons of more elementalist examples, or any of the other 7 classes, since I play them all in wvw so I have a good perception of what requires what.

Cont’d

My point is, somehow I do not feel this is what Arenanet intended when they designed their game. And when Arenanet writes blogs about how wvw should take skill, I dont think this is what they had in mind.s

Also one final thing to touch up on, in the final fight, AM actually built siege in the open field. I imagine 1 of the arrow carts was to fight against Fort Ranik on the ramparts. But then when we came and started pushing them, when we fell back to regroup, they built another arrow cart and a ballista.

Now for a siege mechanic designed to hinder the zerg, it actually favors the zerg in open field fights. Why? Cause if they commit 10/100 players for building siege, they have 90 players to defend them so we still cant push. If we commit 10/30 players to build siege, we commit 30% of our force so they could roll over us instantly while we are busy building some siege. Oh also arrowcarts have a 50 man cap, so they might survive AC fire, while our entire raid will be forced to eat it.

Anyways we could debate how to counter blobs and lag, we already more or less know whats required (see video I linked), but that doesnt make it fair or justified either. For the few guilds who will try to fight it, I reckon the general population will simply also blob to counter, further perpetuating the problem. Arenanet still needs to address the issue, it is a lot more important than designing new siege to counter arrow carts. (Ironic as this issue was exaggerated by buffing arrow carts, since the best way to beat AC defense is to have more than 50 players, short sighted fixes by arenanet.)

Also let me add some extra bit about chokes and objectives. AM really cared. They owned 2/3 keeps and a vast majority of the land. If we sat in bay waiting for them to push into a choke, they would have never come because they simply do not care. They dont even need bay since they are winning the map, but lets say they push in, if they see us holding a choke they wont engage. Now this is good right? I can keep my keep! Yes its good if points mattered but now we can start discussing why wvw is flawed. Because points dont really matter, because the servers are not balanced, everything is driven by night capping and population to the point where unless you are in 1 of the very few lucky match ups then you are winning easily or losing by a lot. So in this situation, I get to hold bay for points that dont matter but at the same time, I get to do nothing, because the enemy doesnt fight.

See, a game format that is pvp, designed around the premise of not fighting, is no longer pvp, it simply isnt. Siege is not pvp, its siege. Arenanet know this more than anybody, due to example of Victory or Death in GW1. Now I dont know how much experience you have with Arenanet, but they were a very good company for GW1. They didnt always listen and they did some bad updates, many even, but nonetheless they were still smart developers. But the changes going on for wvw do not agree with their pvp philosophy. Night capping, keep turtling, these are things that break pvp, but they are valid cheesy tactics to win the matchups… cept winning the match ups doesnt give you anything.

Its funny because in GW1 playing defense balls or turtling was frowned upon. Even in cash tournaments people had the balls to play balanced specs for the sake of competition. But some people will do anything to win wvw, this makes me laugh cause it says a lot about the mentality and Anet has done nothing but further perpetuate it.

And before people go “but siege is awesome” it is. When done right. Read back to the top of my first post, I said a lot of people play the game for different reasons. There should be a balance. I think you should siege to take a keep, just not 1h of siegeing a wall to then engage a 3 minute fight and take the keep. The fight itself should be a huge part of it, and the siegeing shouldnt take so long.

I know where you are coming from. Kitten A-net sanctioned AM blob.

OK, fair enough.

We could continue discussing details but being on the same page about the whole issue, I think we already spent too much time on relatively minor things compared to the main problem.

Solution is simple. Change mechanics in the way to make big zergs useless. Switch off rally, make it possible only if you got killing blow. Upgrade damage aoe skills and make them again hit all ppl in range when healing and helping skills will be cuted of to max 10 ppl in range. That can make bigger lags, yes but if it make players stop stacking I think is worth trying.

Solution is simple…suck it up…wait for ESO. Even if ESO isn’t AS good..at least its different…

Well you probably can zerg in eso too. Unpopular games have less zerging.

If you think movement and tactics can help you, you have clearly never played against blobbadons mouth.

The game is headed in the direction of a re-balance.

1. change map population cap to force players away from top servers

Anet has already made changes to player cap and said they can change this at any time.

2. Stat buff for outmanned AND outpointed servers as well as stat de-buff for high population AND high PPT servers

I don’t see any way of making the game “balanced” and FUN for everyone without this.

3. Change from server bases WvWvW to faction based WvWvW, with “overflow” instances added for more players.

We already have 3 factions in GW2, Vigil, Priory and Order of Wispers.

Gamadorn.2659:

Solution is simple…suck it up…wait for ESO. Even if ESO isn’t AS good..at least its different…

You’re going to be a disappointed man…

Waiting for Godot is a demonstratively pointless tactic and results only in self-hanging from trees.

everybody call them Blobadons, now, you know why…

Swamurabi.7890:

The game is headed in the direction of a re-balance.

1. change map population cap to force players away from top servers

Anet has already made changes to player cap and said they can change this at any time.

2. Stat buff for outmanned AND outpointed servers as well as stat de-buff for high population AND high PPT servers

I don’t see any way of making the game “balanced” and FUN for everyone without this.

3. Change from server bases WvWvW to faction based WvWvW, with “overflow” instances added for more players.

We already have 3 factions in GW2, Vigil, Priory and Order of Wispers.

I agree strongly with the first 2 and seriously hope ANET is already long since working on this. They cannot lower WvW map population caps significantly without doing something to both fix and improve the queue system and finding a way to make the players want to spread our populations out more evenly between the worlds.

I am not so sure about your 3rd point but do see the merits in it. It just does not sound like something that could done quickly or easily and making that big of a change in direction is usually something game company’s do not like to do until they are desperate.

But yes, the first 2 points need to happen as soon as possible and I dare say if we don’t get communication along those lines before the one year anniversary there are a lot of folks who are going to be beyond frustrated with how long things have been allowed to degrade with those simple changes that would make such a huge and immediate impact not having been implemented. Once those simple changes are in place ANET can re-evaluate the new meta that results to determine what additional changes are still needed to improve the quality of WvW overall across servers.