Guild Wars 2

I play mainly W3 and over the last few weeks I have been involved in small group -to – 50+ man zerg groups and am upset by the lack of diversity in classes.

Tonight was a prime example… I was part of a 31 man group which consisted of 10 guardians, 8 mesmers, 7 ellies (all d/d) 2 thieves 1 necro 2 rangers and 1 warrior (me)

and basically was the same story on the opposing team… Why are the other classes unused? or is there such class unbalance?

Um the only class you didn’t mention was engineer. Their grenades got nerfed that’s why you hardly see them anymore.

What i’m getting at is the large proportion of Guardians/mesmers/ellies compared to the others

Mesmer: Portal
Elementalist: Swirling Winds
Guardian: Good crowd control and support skills.

These are currently the top 3 support classes in WvW. And you know many players like to play support.

so why 40% of population are still rangers and warriors.
IS true many ppls re-rolled to mesmer and elem in wvw, but still the number of warriors and rangers is too high.
Engineers are few and hard to kill , gues only experienced ones did not re-rolled . Thieves you see them roaming at supply camps.

40% warriors? what server you on? on my server (Gandara) warriors are few and far between – closer to 10% if that.

not sure how many are in the same boat as me (but i feel its quite a few) but i rolled a warrior at launch and got to 80 but then i rerolled and now roll an ele

Budchgon.2108:

40% warriors? what server you on? on my server (Gandara) warriors are few and far between – closer to 10% if that.

no , 40% warriors +rangers
that’s like 20 % each.
i haven’t played since arround 10 days but last time i’ve checked that was the story on tier 1 EU.
I am talking about clans and zergs not random pvp.
as an example i will name few clans of 40 + ppls that runs majority with warriors:
Check them even on youtube
Red guard /OSC / KAZZ … list go on

1. You see a lot of elementalists because d/d eles are almost impossible to kill unless you have a group with a lot of CC, and they have really good mobility.
2. You see a lot of thieves because they also have really good mobility, can turn invisible, and can kill most players in 2 seconds.
3. You see a lot of mesmers because they have portal.
4. You see a lot of guardians because they are the only class that can survive thief burst with any kind of consistency, and thieves are everywhere in WvW.

Other classes can’t match the above classes for DPS, survivability, or utility so you don’t see them.

They are two sides of the same coin, but the lack of diversity in classes is mirrored by the lack of diversity in tactics. Watch videos of organised guilds and you see the same thing over and over: portals, invisibility fields, sanctuaries and lines of warding followed by unloading of AoE.

I’m starting to feel like ‘top-level’ WvW is more akin to synchronised swimming (mastering a set routine) than about groups of people solving problems in real time.

This kind of class imbalance in WvW is a bad sign.

I actually can’t remember a RvR style game that had an imbalance this bad. Though, to be fair, the ones I have played have been fairly mature, with imbalances ironed out.

Has anyone else, with experience in RvR games, seen an imbalance this bad?

To be honest, if I did have a zerg guild, Warriors would be one of the last classes i’d have in them as they offer very little that other classes can do much better with far better survivability.

Its probably just your server. Maybe Thieve/ele/mesmer/guard are a EU thing
In my experience i actually find warriors and rangers to be the most popular classes.
Although there certainly has been a rise in the number of thieves and elementalists as of late.

And i disagree that warriors do nothing in a zerg.
Theres always the 10k kill shot.

I don’t think that it is one class is better than the other it’s just people do not like to play classes where you need to dedicate yourself to the class and it’s not something you can catch on with the playstyle in one day. Like the necromancer for example, they aren’t the easiest class to use but if one has mastered the class then I think that particular necromancer would be a very large threat to the enemy. I don’t know why people complain about the thieves being an overused class in World vs. World, I don’t see them all too much and even if I do, that doesn’t mean that they will instantly kill me, others expect that to happen therefore, they let it happen. I suggest to everyone looking for a new class certainly try one of the lesser used classes like the ranger, necromancer, and engineer; they can be a very large threat to the enemy if used correctly.

I’m on Gandara and I have days where there are Mesmers all over the shop and days where I struggle to find even one to help sync up portals for Golem transportation. On a typical day though it’s mostly Rangers and Warriors I see.

The only class I almost never see is the Engineer. Which I think is a real shame, so I’ve just started levelling one :-)

Budchgon.2108:

To be honest, if I did have a zerg guild, Warriors would be one of the last classes i’d have in them as they offer very little that other classes can do much better with far better survivability.

Hmmm, sounds like you never had the pleasure of being on the receiving end of [LoD] Lords of Death’s (retired guild that played on SBI) Hammer trains.

Here ya go …

Shame they retired (LOD) would have loved getting the hammer build from them.

Budchgon.2108:

Shame they retired (LOD) would have loved getting the hammer build from them.

There is a build link in the description of the bottom video I posted.

Thrumdi.9216:

This kind of class imbalance in WvW is a bad sign.

I actually can’t remember a RvR style game that had an imbalance this bad. Though, to be fair, the ones I have played have been fairly mature, with imbalances ironed out.

Has anyone else, with experience in RvR games, seen an imbalance this bad?

Yep, like most games with wvw/rvr and so forth, they usually start out with a run-what-you bring kind of affair and the more competitive groups will figure out over time- what will kill the most people in front of me and what will keep me up and running while I do it.
Its simply a risk-reward assessment

DAOC, early days no one cared and it was a screaming horde of everything and anything. Over the years we shaved down our 8-man groups to being:
Primary Speed, Primary CC (crowd control), Primary Healer because not much really changed, they where always something you needed to have the bare minimum of. (I mostly ran a minstrel, which was a primary speed, secondary CC/Interrupt kind of class)

Over the years, casters overwhelmed everything else (no hit-cap there!), so we’d run PBAOE groups which just had those three, the rest made up of casters that blew up a few acres of land and everything in it.
Later on, caster got kind of nerfed, so we began to run tank-trains, the three basic classes, the rest where a mix of heavy-defense/offense hybrids and medium-dps and chased everything down, beat everything to death in wtf time.
At some point, things where actually relatively equal for a little bit, where you could run either type of group or a mix of both and sometimes you’d add in a 2nd-healer or something for kicks or when things got very heavy.

For a very long time, DOT casters never figured in until they gave them a buff, then that was the popular choice for some… pretty much never during that time did archers and rogues figure into a mainline 8-man group for zerg busting.
What those guys did was form ‘stealth zergs’, which is about as fun as falling into a punji-stake trap which is also full of bitey animals for the average solo Joe Blogs wandering around by themselves. A few of the better ones, would also take out a high level 8-man group from time to time.

WAR ended up much the same, for similar reasons, the nerf bat swings back and forth over time and some days after a patch, you’d just wake up and find your character was gimped and have to find something else to play that actually worked!

AION, we just ran gank groups of pretty much every kind of class running around murdering 1000’s of people and probably a few million robots trying to XP/farm in peace… up until the designers decided one day that ‘game mechanically’ it was extremely disadvantageous to do so. (so we all quit!)

GW2, it’ll happen, people will do what they always do in games. Once they blow AOE away we’ll probably be back to almost 100% tank trains again, already against the more premium-organized groups, my DOT caster practically does nothing at all to them with the amount of constant condition removal running in them, so my existence will probably be shelved fairly soon as the composition dynamic changes.

Thats games I guess.

Weird, from my experience the number of guardians, warriors and rangers is slightly above the rest while the amount of engineers and necros are a bit less. But not to the point that it’s actually a problem. In fact, with the exception of engineer I think the class representations are actually close enough together to call it balanced. Also the few engineers that run around are the hardest to beat, so maybe the class is just too hard for most people.

People play that which they can run around and kill with.

Your perceptions could also be skewed. Sometimes I feel like I’m fighting full teams of ele’s, or (in the past) whole thief gank squads. Of course it could just be the effects, like D/D eles riding lightning constantly into my FACE, and getting in the thick of it making the earth erupt etc. I prioritize my targets based on threats, and that which is easier to take down, so I notice thieves and eles more, but also might pass over a guardian in a group situation and leave him till the end.

That said, sometimes I have difficulty identifying what class a character is (buffs are the easiest give away, but sometimes there are none or I don’t have time to check). In this example those can fall into the “anonymous” box. Coincidently I never put mesmers, eles, thieves, necros, in this box. The point being that if certain classes are less likely to be identified in the battlefield, your perception becomes that they simply are not there.

From what I can tell, I do Encounter a fair number of eles, guardians, and thieves. Some mesmers but not so much. That said, I encounter all classes no matter what. What’s important is that they all go down the same.

odd as the zoom combo trains seem to be using staff eles currently, not d/d.

lol, ewww, DarkFail.
Sorry, the videos were pretty cool for sure, but DarkFail? Ew.

Thrumdi.9216:

This kind of class imbalance in WvW is a bad sign.

I actually can’t remember a RvR style game that had an imbalance this bad. Though, to be fair, the ones I have played have been fairly mature, with imbalances ironed out.

Has anyone else, with experience in RvR games, seen an imbalance this bad?

Unless there is sarcasm, did you not play Warhammer? Everybody played Brightwizard/Sorceress and Disciple of Khaine/Warrior Priest. There was no reason to play any other class except maybe bring 1 Magus/Engineer for an AoE pull. BWs/Sorcs were so overpowered if you played any other another DPS class you were considered gimp. Didn’t even matter what renown rank/gear you had.

I’m a returning players so the first thing I did was read through the updates and I’ve seen how some abilities have different ‘PVP values’ vs PvE…

Seems to me that precedent has been set; if it’s possible to nerf some abilities in pvp… Devs could buff others the same way… improving ‘survivability/damage/etc’ for each class.

I think Devs are not even considering it… but it’s theoretically possible.

Just saying this video is the best roaming group in the world atm. Red Guard EU.
This is their video from leaving EU for a week and visiting Tier1 US servers prior to the paid transfers. No one could beat them at equal numbers aaaand they regularly rolled zergs 2 to 3 times their size.

Every time I see a ‘group’ video for WvW it’s 10 minutes of mashing ‘1’ with the occasional heal and leap move thrown in while mesmers/eles aoe.

Need more small group and lone man vids out there that showcase skill.

Thrumdi.9216:

This kind of class imbalance in WvW is a bad sign.

I actually can’t remember a RvR style game that had an imbalance this bad. Though, to be fair, the ones I have played have been fairly mature, with imbalances ironed out.

Has anyone else, with experience in RvR games, seen an imbalance this bad?

That is simple, Dark Age of Camelot. I could go months and months about how imbalanced that game was handled. Now, the ex-mythic boys are handling a 3 way war in Elder Scrolls online…it mirrors DAoC.

Guess what MMO, I wont try -_-

Rhyis.7058:

Thrumdi.9216:

This kind of class imbalance in WvW is a bad sign.

I actually can’t remember a RvR style game that had an imbalance this bad. Though, to be fair, the ones I have played have been fairly mature, with imbalances ironed out.

Has anyone else, with experience in RvR games, seen an imbalance this bad?

Unless there is sarcasm, did you not play Warhammer? Everybody played Brightwizard/Sorceress and Disciple of Khaine/Warrior Priest. There was no reason to play any other class except maybe bring 1 Magus/Engineer for an AoE pull. BWs/Sorcs were so overpowered if you played any other another DPS class you were considered gimp. Didn’t even matter what renown rank/gear you had.

You forgot to complain about Chosen/KoBS and Slayers too

Waffler.1257:

1. You see a lot of elementalists because d/d eles are almost impossible to kill unless you have a group with a lot of CC, and they have really good mobility.
2. You see a lot of thieves because they also have really good mobility, can turn invisible, and can kill most players in 2 seconds.
3. You see a lot of mesmers because they have portal.
4. You see a lot of guardians because they are the only class that can survive thief burst with any kind of consistency, and thieves are everywhere in WvW.

Other classes can’t match the above classes for DPS, survivability, or utility so you don’t see them.

I agree with this but I’m going to qualify it by saying other classes are VERY viable in WvW, most players however don’t have the patience or skill to use them. Necro’s have THE best condition control in the game but Necro’s tend to be rare for whatever reason. Rangers have phenomenal ranged damage (imagine that) and fantastic AoE potential and some of the best support in game but you generally only hear about ranger “hate.” Engineers have some of the best versatility in game, rivaled only by Elementalists, but again, they tend to be a rarer class.

Anyone can roll a thief and spam 2 with dagger dagger, and thats why you see so many of them. It doesnt take much skill to attack an opponent from stealth and down him in ~2 seconds. Classes like this with obvious, arguably overpowered niches, will always be the go-to for your average player.

I see diversity in WvW all the time. All the thieves and mesmers have different haricuts, armor, faces, and what not. I always take note of how diverse the character creator allows an individual to be whilst being kitten by a thief/mesmer/guardian zerg. I mean, after I’ve been stomped, not much else to do other than take in the toons trampling over my broken, sad little body.

About 30% of my guild are Warriors. Just thought id bring that statistic here.

geekanerd.4123:

I see diversity in WvW all the time. All the thieves and mesmers have different haricuts, armor, faces, and what not. I always take note of how diverse the character creator allows an individual to be whilst being kitten by a thief/mesmer/guardian zerg. I mean, after I’ve been stomped, not much else to do other than take in the toons trampling over my broken, sad little body.

That’s amazing that you can see the haircuts and faces of the thieves. I just hear dagger noises and see puffs of smoke. Occasionally I’ll see some assassin’s creed lookin mutha off in the distance running away.

Waffler.1257:

geekanerd.4123:

I see diversity in WvW all the time. All the thieves and mesmers have different haricuts, armor, faces, and what not. I always take note of how diverse the character creator allows an individual to be whilst being kitten by a thief/mesmer/guardian zerg. I mean, after I’ve been stomped, not much else to do other than take in the toons trampling over my broken, sad little body.

That’s amazing that you can see the haircuts and faces of the thieves. I just hear dagger noises and see puffs of smoke. Occasionally I’ll see some assassin’s creed lookin mutha off in the distance running away.

’’

Look. I’m not here to brag. At all. But it is a skill I’ve acquired after countless thieves have spiked and stomped me over the months. Sometimes, as they’re running away, but before you WP in anger, you can catch just a glimpse of their features. It takes talent. And a willingness to fight level 80 thieves on low-level characters. Well. Much more of the latter than the former, but, hey.

I think it really depends on how your guild rolls. If its just a mass of people bunching up initially, only later to break formation and do skirmishes, solo builds will probably be preferred. So you would see D/D thieves, D/D eles, hunters, warriors, guards, etc built more for solo and small team play, only they move in zergs. If on the other hand its for a 20-30 organized zerg, then definitely you want guardians and support ele to keep the team alive. You then add warriors and rangers for dps. Mesmer for mobility. Also people in larger zergs will have to forgo solo builds since they don’t do much for the group as a whole. Necros and engies can be very useful, but only if your group strategy calls for them.

From my experience there have always been alot of mesmers and ele’s. Its just that alot of ele’s put the staff in the inventory and roll d/d. My first character was a ele when the game came out and he is still level 47. Mesmers always see them portal was popular early anyway.

I come across guardians, warriors and rangers the most from what I have seen.

DAOC made some classes useless by bringing out new classes that did the same role just a lot better..
Still think a wvw game doesnt need class balance since it is group vs group.

Think you should stop running in pugs and you will see a lot more other classes.
- Bomber Engineers are real good in debuffs(vulnerability -> good AOE engineer can easily stack up atleast 10 vulnerability on everyoneone around them.. having 2 or 3 will be about 30-40% extra damage everyone is doing)
- staff eles are still best in healing and cleansing
- warriors are very good in AOE CC and AOE damage (melee train)
- necros good in removing boons from oponents and conditions from allies
etc..
GW2 has for almost all classes a good build they are best in WvW , just not all dps.

Problem is most people that dont do GvG battles are build for dps and are glasscanons and dont care about others in their group. Thats why groups like RG run through zergs that easy with 25+ mights and lots of conditions stacked on opponents.
(so around atleast 50% more damage then the usual zerg player and about 75% more survivability with protection and cleansing and regen up all the time and none glasscanon builds)

Both my engi and guardian will loose most 1vs1 battle but our guild groups kills 2 or 3 time bigger zergs all the time.

Attic.1562:

Rhyis.7058:

Thrumdi.9216:

This kind of class imbalance in WvW is a bad sign.

I actually can’t remember a RvR style game that had an imbalance this bad. Though, to be fair, the ones I have played have been fairly mature, with imbalances ironed out.

Has anyone else, with experience in RvR games, seen an imbalance this bad?

Unless there is sarcasm, did you not play Warhammer? Everybody played Brightwizard/Sorceress and Disciple of Khaine/Warrior Priest. There was no reason to play any other class except maybe bring 1 Magus/Engineer for an AoE pull. BWs/Sorcs were so overpowered if you played any other another DPS class you were considered gimp. Didn’t even matter what renown rank/gear you had.

You forgot to complain about Chosen/KoBS and Slayers too

Yeap, knights/bws/Wp’s were core for groups…

Eventually it switched up some and people ran Slayers over BW’s…

The other classes were more or less fine, and you could switch them out in some cases in group..Really depended…

BW’s though were the main offender in Warhammer online though for shoddy mechanic and moronic abilities.

Playing with Fire for example… was obscene at the start…You could counter it somewhat by stacking the crap out of Fire Resist in that game..but they eventually nerfed that because they wanted BW’s to instant gib people it seems.

Though my Squig herder did absolutely wreck the crap out of BW’s..that was the funny thing, that class really needed a full group for its potential…Running around solo I would instant gib most ones I saw..

My Black Orc at the start was also pretty much unkillable 1v1…I mean a beefy tank with a 1200 point heal every 10 seconds? Yes please…

edit

Wanted to add, DPS DoK’s were pretty much required at the start for Destruction (chosen as well), the One Dot Group buff DoK’s got with the 60% snare was absolutely insane for group fights.

I mean it pretty much meant no one could kite at all…

Haha, now that you mentioned it, I feel I’m sometimes the only Warrior in a small group of infiltrators. >3< Then again, it is how you use your character that makes you indispensable.