Guild Wars 2

mango.9267:

No, the larger server usually doesn’t have to make the tradeoff because they have enough players to be able to both scout and zerg. The weaker servers are the ones who have to decide between scouting and zerging, neither of which will be effective against the larger server. Obviously, the larger server can’t hold everything, but they can spare enough people to hold enough structures that they retain very high PPT.

Why is it so hard to understand that the strongest server in a match up usually hold more objectives, so it has a bigger territory to scout.

Every server has to make that trade off and things balanced themselves quite nicely at the moment. As soon as a server over extend, they lack the scouts/population to protect everything and things start to flip.

White swords made it way more imbalanced. The strongest server could simply watch the map for swords and zerg defend everything. The weaker server had no chance to recap anything unless the strongest server let them because they were bored and wanted to karma train.

Removing the white swords was a much needed change and I hope Anet keep it.

Gudradain.3892:

mango.9267:

No, the larger server usually doesn’t have to make the tradeoff because they have enough players to be able to both scout and zerg. The weaker servers are the ones who have to decide between scouting and zerging, neither of which will be effective against the larger server. Obviously, the larger server can’t hold everything, but they can spare enough people to hold enough structures that they retain very high PPT.

Why is it so hard to understand that the strongest server in a match up usually hold more objectives, so it has a bigger territory to scout.

Every server has to make that trade off and things balanced themselves quite nicely at the moment. As soon as a server over extend, they lack the scouts/population to protect everything and things start to flip.

White swords made it way more imbalanced. The strongest server could simply watch the map for swords and zerg defend everything. The weaker server had no chance to recap anything unless the strongest server let them because they were bored and wanted to karma train.

Removing the white swords was a much needed change and I hope Anet keep it.

I disagree with every point you make in these threads as my experience has been entirely the opposite. You’ve posted in every single one defending the change. Why? When this “event” ends I hope they kill the no white swords change, nuke it from orbit, burn it with fire, and launch it into the sun. It’s terrible, and I pray they revert the change and never look back.

I do want PPK to stay. That creates a pretty interesting dynamic that I’ve been enjoying. A different way to gain points than simple PPT/holding objectives is a welcome change.

mango.9267:

The weaker servers are the ones who have to decide between scouting and zerging, neither of which will be effective against the larger server.

This is the problem with your server. You chose to zerg, when the patch favors havoc group a lot.

I endorse this patch. I’ve found more small group fight in the last few days than in 6months before the patch. I’ll take 10fights of 5v8 over a fight of 50men vs 80men zerg any day

In no way do white swords benefit the smaller servers. The large servers are the ones who can afford to send scouts everywhere and defend. The small servers relied on white swords to check for attackers, since they cannot afford to send scouts.

I am currently in tier 6. Havoc groups don’t want to fight, they want to k-train. I’ve never seen such few fights in wvw. It’s literally just flipping and defending now. Reset was alright but tonight was horribly boring. All there is to do is sneak havoc towers and sneak past defenders, there are nearly no fights.

BlueBoy.1236:

mango.9267:

The weaker servers are the ones who have to decide between scouting and zerging, neither of which will be effective against the larger server.

This is the problem with your server. You chose to zerg, when the patch favors havoc group a lot.

I endorse this patch. I’ve found more small group fight in the last few days than in 6months before the patch. I’ll take 10fights of 5v8 over a fight of 50men vs 80men zerg any day

It favors more than just havoc, it favors ktrains. Fights are more difficult to find and more unrewarding headaches have been added to the few people who are willing to scout. After this test is done then this change to white swords needs to be excluded or vastly changed from what it is right now.

havocs? no need to spend gold on upgrades!

oh and i tried playing as a tower baby sitter today, chase a few people off, walked some yaks in and than a huge zerg swallowed the tower whole

coglin.1867:

Maskaganda.2043:

.
white sword removal didn’t bring anything good to wvw. the op saying he caps undefended stuff is exactly the kind of thing thats bores us to death. I’d much rather have a fight vs players than fight structures.

Perfect. Then have i got a deal for you. It is calle sPvP. Specifically designed arounf points that are not structures, and fighting other players.

By the way, I really liked you on the podcast you used to participate in, but stop using the words “us” and “we”. No one voted or elected you, or empowered you, to speak for others here. We have differing opinions, and that is fine. But drop the attempts to give you opinion more weight then others, by implying that you speak for anyone other then yourself.

When I say us or we I mean my group/guild which was clearly referred before in that post. I am a guild leader and I’m very aware of how everyone in my guild/group feels about the change so I can kinda speak for them. I don’t pretend or care to speak for anyone else.

As for the “go spvp” remark, I don’t get it. Am I not supposed to pvp in wvw? Shouldn’t I be allowed to have fun the way I always had in wvw? What makes fighting structures and not players so interesting? Shouldn’t you go PvE by that logic then? Not saying you should, but you have to see how flawed such logic is.

Maskaganda.2043:

coglin.1867:

Maskaganda.2043:

.
white sword removal didn’t bring anything good to wvw. the op saying he caps undefended stuff is exactly the kind of thing thats bores us to death. I’d much rather have a fight vs players than fight structures.

Perfect. Then have i got a deal for you. It is calle sPvP. Specifically designed arounf points that are not structures, and fighting other players.

By the way, I really liked you on the podcast you used to participate in, but stop using the words “us” and “we”. No one voted or elected you, or empowered you, to speak for others here. We have differing opinions, and that is fine. But drop the attempts to give you opinion more weight then others, by implying that you speak for anyone other then yourself.

When I say us or we I mean my group/guild which was clearly referred before in that post. I am a guild leader and I’m very aware of how everyone in my guild/group feels about the change so I can kinda speak for them. I don’t pretend or care to speak for anyone else.

As for the “go spvp” remark, I don’t get it. Am I not supposed to pvp in wvw? Shouldn’t I be allowed to have fun the way I always had in wvw? What makes fighting structures and not players so interesting? Shouldn’t you go PvE by that logic then? Not saying you should, but you have to see how flawed such logic is.

I am with Maskaganda on this. I know TCHU from my time on gandara and they were (and I believe still are) one of the best, if not the best, small scale squads on the whole server, and in that regard I think he’s a good representative of small scale on other servers too.

I know a lot of people think SPvP is for “fighting other players” where WvW is for “following commander and taking stuff”. Well, you’re wrong. WvW is a PvP mode as much and more than SPvP will ever be, because SPvP does not work around fighting but around bunkering/capping points. Courtyard is the only exception, but it’s implementation is so poor that only premades are fighting there, haven’t tried with a guild group myself yet. Anyways, WvW is still the best place for people who like PvP.

When Maskaganda says it bores “us” I imagine he’s speaking for his guild and possibly other small scale/havoc/roaming squads. My guild even has a sort of rule that we only take structures that are defended by other server, because that way it’s challenging and fun. Taking empty structures? Waaw, you must feel so good. If that’s your thing, I suggest you go do PvE instead of WvW.

BlueBoy.1236:

I endorse this patch. I’ve found more small group fight in the last few days than in 6months before the patch. I’ll take 10fights of 5v8 over a fight of 50men vs 80men zerg any day

Understandable if things work out that way for you – unfortunately it’s not what I experience. Over here it is me against a group of 5 (me being the spotter, can’t afford to have more people in a spotting group, enemy servers – especially Whiteridge – can field twice our number during their rush hour) or me in a structure yelling for reinforcements because there’s 20+people ringing the bell.

Whenever I’m in a larger group most of our enemies will show us their backsides – it is exactly like EotM and I think one EotM playstyle is enough and borderlands should be different.

Mitch the Fish.1947:

Personally my guild is a havoc guild and now we have the capability to not only attack waypointed structures but if the scouts are not paying attaention we regularly capture them.

You realize the problem with this statement… PvD is a BAD thing not a GOOD thing. If you want to flip objectives undefended, you should go to EotM.

I’m not going to say the change is good or bad yet because I haven’t played in the off hours. My guild has had to change it’s tower strategy and always leave 1 player in our claimed tower while the rest run supply, buff yaks and keep the merc camps clear. I have noticed that if you manage to get your tower sieged and buffed and the ktrain shows up they don’t stay long since they can’t just pvd.

The only thing this change does it make everyone more offense focused. NO ONE wants to just sit in towers all day long. That is boring. It has also killed the concept of a roaming scout, or someone who escorts dolyaks. A T3 can now be capped quickly with no notice.

Essentially, this change is great for anyone who wants WvW to turn into EotM. It is horrible for anyone who wants a bit more strategy.

style.6173:

The only thing this change does it make everyone more offense focused. NO ONE wants to just sit in towers all day long. That is boring. It has also killed the concept of a roaming scout, or someone who escorts dolyaks. A T3 can now be capped quickly with no notice.

Essentially, this change is great for anyone who wants WvW to turn into EotM. It is horrible for anyone who wants a bit more strategy.

No one is saying sit in a tower all day. If that’s your definition of scouting then sorry to say you are doing it wrong. As for someone who roams, scouts and walk yaks I can say that not much has changed as I never relied on white swords anyway cause most of them were players tapping a gate. Scouting is finding the enemy before they hit an objective.. Not after swords pop you go and scout it out.. That is not scouting

Killed the concept of roaming? Nah I don’t think so. I see more smaller groups trying to take things which brings out more smaller fights..

Gudradain.3892:

I’m on T3. Found the change refreshing to say the least. Even though we came a distant second, it gave our server the opportunity to cap the winning server’s territory. Before this change, they would have come along with their zerg/blob & steam rolled us. Heck, we even got lord room gates down in their keep before the blob overwhelmed us. No way this would have happened in the past.
The non white swords are going to have little impact on PPT. It does make life a lot easier for servers with smaller populations to roam & cap without being wiped 90% of the time.

Not only does it makes match up more balanced but it also makes match up more interesting for a LOT of players.

Now, get out of the forum and go try it before crying.

Looking at T3 score, it seens to be the same as when there was white swords… The biggest server still winning by a large margin.

Gudradain.3892:

Now, I didn’t pop that it makes WvW more balanced out no where. I look at the situation and this is what I noticed. Every match up seems more balanced. Every server now have a fighting chance and every players are useful.

I read all the threads/posts and I’m not the only one that think that way. From your own matchup

I doubt you’ve read many posts from my matchup because almost everyone from my matchup thinks this change is a terrible idea. I’ve already listed the reasons why.

Gudradain.3892:

Not only does it makes match up more balanced but it also makes match up more interesting for a LOT of players.

Now, get out of the forum and go try it before crying.

No, it doesn’t make the match more balanced by any stretch of the imagination. And it definitely doesn’t make the matchup interesting for a lot of players because this change promotes the most boring aspects of WvW: tower sitting and PvDoor.

It’s funny that you tell me to get off the forum and try this change because I’m actually in the T3 matchup, and I can tell you this change has widened the gap between first and second, if anything. For IoJ, most of our upgrades come in the EU time slot, when our skeleton crew usually runs around responding to swords. Now that swords are gone, it’s near impossible to get our upgrades up, so our BL is becoming a K-train. From the looks of it, NSP BL is looking to be the same.

I understand why PvDoor havoc groups might like this change, but for actual defenders and fights-oriented players, this change is absolutely terrible.

My current match up is a lot closer score wise then it has been before the swords were removed.. By now usually you can already tell who is going to win the rest of the week just by the current scores.. Not so much now as any of the 3 servers can still win it.

Also why should EU guys have to be the ones to do the boring upgrading? Sounds to me you guys are relying on them to do all your upgrading. Maybe get better scouts and people walking yaks etc etc when EU isn’t in play. If my server didn’t do any upgrading outside of a certain time zone then I guess I too would complain and blame it on the white swords and overlook the fact that we lack scouts and roamers.

briggah.7910:

Also why should EU guys have to be the ones to do the boring upgrading? Sounds to me you guys are relying on them to do all your upgrading. Maybe get better scouts and people walking yaks etc etc when EU isn’t in play. If my server didn’t do any upgrading outside of a certain time zone then I guess I too would complain and blame it on the white swords and overlook the fact that we lack scouts and roamers.

I think you completely missed the point of the post. No one was blaming anyone in any time zone. Upgrades usually happen when servers have some down time, which happens to be EU for the T3 matchup. However, now, even during down time, it’s nearly impossible to upgrade.

And no, it’s not because we lack scouts or roamers. It’s because the lack of white swords makes it so that we have to either spread ourselves too thin scouting (and thus end up being unable to defend), or we have to run to a structure to defend it (and end up losing other structures due to having our skeleton crew gather to defend). In the end, upgrading is nearly impossible.

It’s pretty much undeniable that this change greatly benefits attackers and greatly hinders defensive play. In a balanced matchup, this might be okay, although it promotes the worst aspects of WvW. However, in a lopsided matchup, this is a huge benefit to the largest server.

ioj does lack scouts and roamers.. In a previous post I stated that even before this white sword thing I solo/duo’ed a few towers from ioj with white swords in play.. I did this during NA time zone. It was about constantly tapping your stuff till you just gave up checking on the white swords and eventually your tower was mine.

Now that I think about it your south towers in your BL no one ever came to check on the swords. Another guildie and I took some fortified towers because no one ever came to see what was popping them white swords..

Blame it on swords if you want but I’m telling you it doesn’t matter..

briggah.7910:

ioj does lack scouts and roamers.. In a previous post I stated that even before this white sword thing I solo/duo’ed a few towers from ioj with white swords in play.. I did this during NA time zone. It was about constantly tapping your stuff till you just gave up checking on the white swords and eventually your tower was mine.

Now that I think about it your south towers in your BL no one ever came to check on the swords. Another guildie and I took some fortified towers because no one ever came to see what was popping them white swords..

Blame it on swords if you want but I’m telling you it doesn’t matter..

I’m not sure why you think your singular experience over the course of one week is good evidence for our alleged lack of scouts. Not that that’s not even relevant. A number of players from other servers have posted similar complaints as well.

Again, I reiterate, this change makes upgrading nearly impossible and defending very difficult, especially when you’re outnumbered. And it’s not because we, the players, aren’t scouting enough or aren’t playing wisely.

Gudradain.3892:

mango.9267:

I question how much WvW you play if you truly believe that’s how it works. On paper, it might sound like that’s what would happen (maybe). However, in practice, the exact opposite happens. Feel free to peruse some of the other responses in the tiered discussion of white swords thread, and you’ll notice that many of the posters from the outnumbered servers have complained about the problem I’ve just described.

Attacking the players instead of the argument… But if you wonder how much time I have played :

- Nearly every single day several hours per day for 2 years now. I have thousand of hours defending, building siege, scouting, commanding and running havoc groups

Now, I didn’t pop that it makes WvW more balanced out no where. I look at the situation and this is what I noticed. Every match up seems more balanced. Every server now have a fighting chance and every players are useful.

I read all the threads/posts and I’m not the only one that think that way. From your own matchup

I’m on T3. Found the change refreshing to say the least. Even though we came a distant second, it gave our server the opportunity to cap the winning server’s territory. Before this change, they would have come along with their zerg/blob & steam rolled us. Heck, we even got lord room gates down in their keep before the blob overwhelmed us. No way this would have happened in the past.
The non white swords are going to have little impact on PPT. It does make life a lot easier for servers with smaller populations to roam & cap without being wiped 90% of the time.

Not only does it makes match up more balanced but it also makes match up more interesting for a LOT of players.

Now, get out of the forum and go try it before crying.

The close matchups have nothing to do with the removal of white swords… And a lot of servers are still getting destroyed.
I’m also from ebay, and I know RUN is somewhat small guild and havocing is something you guys like to do. But guilds such as Woe and CoT want to have fights. Last night we both had zero fights, it was a horribly boring night for raiding. Without white swords havocing and defending is all there really is to do. We like fighting other guilds and zergbusting… Killing random roamers who don’t even fight and just waypoint when they see people is boring. With white swords we had the option to pick what we wanted to do. Find fights, havoc, defend, we could play wvw any way we wanted.
Pure havocing and ktraining is not what wvw is supposed to be about.

mango.9267:

briggah.7910:

ioj does lack scouts and roamers.. In a previous post I stated that even before this white sword thing I solo/duo’ed a few towers from ioj with white swords in play.. I did this during NA time zone. It was about constantly tapping your stuff till you just gave up checking on the white swords and eventually your tower was mine.

Now that I think about it your south towers in your BL no one ever came to check on the swords. Another guildie and I took some fortified towers because no one ever came to see what was popping them white swords..

Blame it on swords if you want but I’m telling you it doesn’t matter..

I’m not sure why you think your singular experience over the course of one week is good evidence for our alleged lack of scouts. Not that that’s not even relevant. A number of players from other servers have posted similar complaints as well.

It wasn’t a singular experience.. It was something I did each and everyday cause I knew no one would come and check on the swords after a certain amount of time. It all starts with camps and constantly tapping things to drive you guys crazy looking for me. When you give up and just assume that “it is prob the same guy tapping” is when I made my move and your tower was mine.

Also I had plenty of fights in camps etc etc while going around tapping stuff. It wasn’t like I was on an empty map. Some stopped me from taking towers so I can’t say every time I came out on top. I’m telling you from what I’ve seen you lack scouts even when swords were in play. Take it as you please. Adapt to the changes for now as its only a TEST.

Anyway we are off point from the OP. You can take what I said as a bunch of bull-skritt or you can see it as swords won’t make a difference when you lack scouts in the first place..

Mango, you’re discussing with a GoM ppt hero… You’re not getting anything from him since his server got a much better coverage and is climbing up rather easy… Wait until he hit the wagonbrand wall (which you are facing now) and see if his little speech will remain the same.

Only people who are in servers that been winning lately are saying the changes are good, like Ehmry Bay, Gate of Madness and Kaineng.

Jeknar.6184:

Only people who are in servers that been winning lately are saying the changes are good, like Ehmry Bay, Gate of Madness and Kaineng.

Did you forget little old me? Guess that throws some of the balance off of your statement :P

McWolfy.5924:

Megablobs just facerolled everything with or without white sword and sent back 1 people to check whites. Now little teams have a chance.

This simple statement is all that needs to be heard. This is how WvW should have been in the first place. It was never meant to be this “everybody stack in two square inches and gain every friggin boon in game so we can fight the other giant stack with every boon in game.”

It was meant to be a chaotic battlefield filled with scouts and small skirmishes everywhere. This is the direction removal of white swords pushes in. Therefore, despite any possible negative repercussions (I could argue for days that such problems are very minor indeed), the removal is a step in the right direction. Any issues can be compensated by tweeks.

Jeknar.6184:

Mango, you’re discussing with a GoM ppt hero… You’re not getting anything from him since his server got a much better coverage and is climbing up rather easy… Wait until he hit the wagonbrand wall (which you are facing now) and see if his little speech will remain the same.

Only people who are in servers that been winning lately are saying the changes are good, like Ehmry Bay, Gate of Madness and Kaineng.

LOL jeknar. You know me as a roamer. PPT is just another part of this game. Should I mention that the current match up I’m in now is close in score and any server can still take the win?? I bet if swords were in play GoM would have a bigger lead then what we currently have now so saying that only the servers that are winning have the advantage is just a bunch of bull.

ET is a k-train server that plays for 3 hours out of the day. GoM has its groups spread across 4 maps while every other server we face piles up in one ball and zergs maps.. if they broke from the zerg they would have a better chance taking us down.. They don’t break from their zerg though and that’s the problem.. Has nothing to do with swords

5 GoM at lake send entire zerg

MightyMicah.7451:

McWolfy.5924:

Megablobs just facerolled everything with or without white sword and sent back 1 people to check whites. Now little teams have a chance.

This simple statement is all that needs to be heard. This is how WvW should have been in the first place. It was never meant to be this “everybody stack in two square inches and gain every friggin boon in game so we can fight the other giant stack with every boon in game.”

It was meant to be a chaotic battlefield filled with scouts and small skirmishes everywhere. This is the direction removal of white swords pushes in. Therefore, despite any possible negative repercussions (I could argue for days that such problems are very minor indeed), the removal is a step in the right direction. Any issues can be compensated by tweeks.

There are no small skirmishes… Only small groups sneaking where there is no coverage and leaving whenever they see a defender. There is no chaotic battlefield, as there are nearly no fights. There are not scouts everywhere either. Mainly because scouting is still boring and unrewarding. There is no incentive to scout.

TheBandit.7031:

MightyMicah.7451:

McWolfy.5924:

Megablobs just facerolled everything with or without white sword and sent back 1 people to check whites. Now little teams have a chance.

This simple statement is all that needs to be heard. This is how WvW should have been in the first place. It was never meant to be this “everybody stack in two square inches and gain every friggin boon in game so we can fight the other giant stack with every boon in game.”

It was meant to be a chaotic battlefield filled with scouts and small skirmishes everywhere. This is the direction removal of white swords pushes in. Therefore, despite any possible negative repercussions (I could argue for days that such problems are very minor indeed), the removal is a step in the right direction. Any issues can be compensated by tweeks.

There are no small skirmishes… Only small groups sneaking where there is no coverage and leaving whenever they see a defender. There is no chaotic battlefield, as there are nearly no fights. There are not scouts everywhere either. Mainly because scouting is still boring and unrewarding. There is no incentive to scout.

Lies, lies, lies and more lies. I’m noticing even in this short time that WvW has changed a ton. People are already adapting to these changes and what I stated can be objectively demonstrated to be true. Otherwise I would probably share your opinion. I don’t post on the forums often because I have nothing to say. This change, however, was affecting my gameplay and when I checked the forum I noticed what had happened.

Either way, we will get no where until one of us can drop some hard evidence. Which is kind of difficult to do honestly.

I suppose I should have recorded what I experienced with my guild last night. Since we had absolutely no fights, we decided to fortify and defend our home bl. During this time we saw havoc groups come, and leave within a minute. Some didn’t even try to fight and just waypointed, others left as soon as they died. There was only one guy who stayed, a thief that tried to kill dolyaks. Our night consisted of chasing around 1 person. When I went to ebg after that, Havoc groups in ebg were doing nothing but picking off people and running from fights.

My server has no more scouts than we had in the past. I have no clue what server you are from but on my tier there no fights and the same amount of scouts.. That’s just the fact of it, there’s no lying involved here. I have played multiple hours without white swords doing a little bit of everything.

TheBandit.7031:

I suppose I should have recorded what I experienced with my guild last night. Since we had absolutely no fights, we decided to fortify and defend our home bl. During this time we saw havoc groups come, and leave within a minute. Some didn’t even try to fight and just waypointed, others left as soon as they died. There was only one guy who stayed, a thief that tried to kill dolyaks. Our night consisted of chasing around 1 person. When I went to ebg after that, Havoc groups in ebg were doing nothing but picking off people and running from fights.

My server has no more scouts than we had in the past. I have no clue what server you are from but on my tier there no fights and the same amount of scouts.. That’s just the fact of it, there’s no lying involved here. I have played multiple hours without white swords doing a little bit of everything.

If what you are saying is true for every server and will remain as such, then I say we definitely need white swords back. However, I simply haven’t observed what you are saying to be true. I suspect that the reason not much action is happening is due to the fact that your server tier hasn’t adapted yet. I don’t mean that in any disrespectful manner because it takes time to develop strategy. Remember what WvW was like back post launch? I imagine that once your server takes into consideration every way to take advantage of the fact that white swords are gone, things will change quite rapidly.

These things take time, and again, it is difficult to bring any hard evidence. Evidence can be brought, certainly, but conclusive evidence is difficult to come by because conclusions are formed by interpretations of evidence, not evidence itself.

This is one of the dumbest ideas yet. We are outnumbered the majority of the time in Anvil Rock. Its hard enough defending when we don’t have many people on. Now our towers are just flipping without warning. That is unless we have a way point. So now I have to constantly check to see if our way point is contested; which if I check it too late we’re screwed anyway. Why was this necessary again?

johnnymiller.5968:

I’m on T3. Found the change refreshing to say the least. Even though we came a distant second, it gave our server the opportunity to cap the winning server’s territory. Before this change, they would have come along with their zerg/blob & steam rolled us. Heck, we even got lord room gates down in their keep before the blob overwhelmed us. No way this would have happened in the past.
The non white swords are going to have little impact on PPT. It does make life a lot easier for servers with smaller populations to roam & cap without being wiped 90% of the time.

This has less to do with white swords and more to do with ANET horrible job with servers match ups/population.

Remove white swords for all but the outnumbered two servers

Leaving scouts at important points and havocing is the way to take advantage of this. The problem is that the majority of my server doesn’t like or want to do that. As I said before, there is no incentive to scout. With white swords there is an option to run small or large groups. As long as one server choses to run all small groups, running a larger one will put your server at a disadvantage.
Before white swords forced havoc groups or any group really to fight. As long as there were defenders they would know their structure is being attacked and the attackers will be forced to fight to win over the structure. Havoc groups now have the ability to avoid all fights and resistance and ktrain away.
My guild used to attack keeps/towers to purposely attract people with the white swords so we could get fights. I don’t understand how someone could enjoy wvw without any good fights. Maybe it’s just the servers we’re up against, but they should be able to do well by avoiding all possible fights.

What i’m seeing repeated is that posters from balanced tiers, or with stable populations (T2+) are more likely to approve of the change.

Defensively minded players in matchups where there are not enough players are quitting entirely (no upgrades, no saving keeps, fewer call-outs are all symptomatic of defenders getting fed up doing something else)

Offensively minded players like this change because it means they get to PvD and take stuff without getting stopped.

Fighters do not like this change as it’s impossible to draw out a fight by tapping structures,

Roamers do not like this change because they wander aimlessly following sentry flips, camp flips and yaks and are finding fewer and fewer fights. As the fights dwindle, the roamers move to SPvP, because you can’t NOT fight them in there. Roamers leaving affects defenders, and you’re in danger of slipping into a negative feedback loop.

Yo, people from every tier hate this change. T3 towers flipping before you can respond or waypoints disappearing without you even realising it is just stupid. Sure, you can adapt, but what’s the point? This is just (thankfully) a temporary thing anyway.

MightyMicah.7451:

McWolfy.5924:

Megablobs just facerolled everything with or without white sword and sent back 1 people to check whites. Now little teams have a chance.

This simple statement is all that needs to be heard. This is how WvW should have been in the first place. It was never meant to be this “everybody stack in two square inches and gain every friggin boon in game so we can fight the other giant stack with every boon in game.”

It was meant to be a chaotic battlefield filled with scouts and small skirmishes everywhere. This is the direction removal of white swords pushes in. Therefore, despite any possible negative repercussions (I could argue for days that such problems are very minor indeed), the removal is a step in the right direction. Any issues can be compensated by tweeks.

Running around not finding fights and PvDooring isn’t really what I’d call “chaotic” lol.

Bad change is bad, T7 NA has basically turned into an EOTM karma train.

TheBandit.7031:

Leaving scouts at important points and havocing is the way to take advantage of this. .

I’d suggest your entire guild does exactly that for a month, covering every point that you would like a scout at (this is, of course, a joke).

The point is, scouting isn’t fun, especially if you are facing two servers both intent on attacking your structures, as there is no alternative but to have somebody babysit the structure, otherwise by the time you wondered off to check the camp and come back the gate is down.

If they want to keep this change then camps need to be harder to take and towers and keeps need to be made more resistant so they take at least 5 minutes to take down a wall or a door (with better rewards for defending and attacking).

Hamster.4861:

What i’m seeing repeated is that posters from balanced tiers, or with stable populations (T2+) are more likely to approve of the change.

Defensively minded players in matchups where there are not enough players are quitting entirely (no upgrades, no saving keeps, fewer call-outs are all symptomatic of defenders getting fed up doing something else)

Offensively minded players like this change because it means they get to PvD and take stuff without getting stopped.

Fighters do not like this change as it’s impossible to draw out a fight by tapping structures,

Roamers do not like this change because they wander aimlessly following sentry flips, camp flips and yaks and are finding fewer and fewer fights. As the fights dwindle, the roamers move to SPvP, because you can’t NOT fight them in there. Roamers leaving affects defenders, and you’re in danger of slipping into a negative feedback loop.

My guild is a havoc guild on FA. Pretty much everyone in the guild except for one person strongly disapproves of this change.

We used to be a very defensive chase down the other havocs type of guild. Now, we pretty much just go to the other borderlands and ninja stuff till we get bored.

Shrug, we can chase down the predicable roamers just fine. The ones that vary their routine just are hard to find and quite frankly, the game play of chasing people across the map is extremely tedious.

Well, I am improving my sPvP and dungeon running skills now.

Agricola.2817:

Bad change is bad, T7 NA has basically turned into an EOTM karma train.

That’s mostly due to the fact that my server’s barely a competitor thus making it more between FC and AR with just a lot of territory to cover(since we lose most of our stuff).

Mitch the Fish.1947:

Personally my guild is a havoc guild and now we have the capability to not only attack waypointed structures but if the scouts are not paying attaention we regularly capture them.

This makes no sense. If a keep is waypointed, attacking it will contest the waypoint. This is the same thing as having white swords. Moreover, it is something that is noticeable across WvW maps, you don’t even need to be on the same map!

Gudradain.3892:

It’s a good change.

It’s a good thing if you like karma training. It is, however, not a good change if you’re an attacker who wants fights. Or a defender who wants fights. Or if you don’t want to waste your time idling in a structure waiting for an attack that may never come performing sentry duty that is unrewarding.

I agree that having a system that allows smaller groups a chance is something that should exist. A system that treats 5 attackers the same as 30 or 60 is not.

gennyt.3428:

MightyMicah.7451:

McWolfy.5924:

Megablobs just facerolled everything with or without white sword and sent back 1 people to check whites. Now little teams have a chance.

This simple statement is all that needs to be heard. This is how WvW should have been in the first place. It was never meant to be this “everybody stack in two square inches and gain every friggin boon in game so we can fight the other giant stack with every boon in game.”

It was meant to be a chaotic battlefield filled with scouts and small skirmishes everywhere. This is the direction removal of white swords pushes in. Therefore, despite any possible negative repercussions (I could argue for days that such problems are very minor indeed), the removal is a step in the right direction. Any issues can be compensated by tweeks.

Running around not finding fights and PvDooring isn’t really what I’d call “chaotic” lol.

I wouldn’t call that chaotic either. I would call constantly running into other small groups and losing towers without even detecting the enemy pretty chaotic, though. Especially when you factor in all the roamers/scouts running around the map and reporting their findings. I could see things being ten times as fast paced and crazy as they are now. Just the other day a team successfully snuck into the underground passage in our (red EB) keep. If it wasn’t for me roaming and following a particular enemy to his group, we probably would have lost our keep. (It was a group of about 10-12 who had broken off from their Zerg.)

It’s a good change and I hope it’s kept after this test phase on my server we managed to take half the map while ournumbered just because the other 2 servers lack of coordination.

People complaining only need to start using some tactics instead of Ktrain around the maps, is it difficult for you to find the zerg ? get better at scouting, one thing I noticed there are a lot of people sitting on camps/towers/keeps waiting to spot the enemy… that’s just ridiculous.

Awful. Completly destroying WvW on EU T8-T9. No fights, no scouts, brainless karma training. Please keep this stuff to t1 or whatever.

sminkiottone.6972:

It’s a good change and I hope it’s kept after this test phase on my server we managed to take half the map while ournumbered just because the other 2 servers lack of coordination.

People complaining only need to start using some tactics instead of Ktrain around the maps, is it difficult for you to find the zerg ? get better at scouting, one thing I noticed there are a lot of people sitting on camps/towers/keeps waiting to spot the enemy… that’s just ridiculous.

You know what happened on reset? I babysat Hills for upwards of 5 hours to get it waypointed and fortified, and I was the only scout in it. A large guild group came in, didn’t flip any camps, and built 5 guild catas. If I hadn’t been babysitting, they would have taken the keep. They managed to get both outer and inner walls down before we were able to wipe them. They tried this twice. If I had just been running around and scouting, they would have taken the keep before we ever knew it was being attacked. Luckily, I was there, and was able to call for reinforcements. It was boring as hell, completely unrewarding, but I knew it was important and made the choice to do it. I was the White Swords. Think about that for a moment.

sminkiottone.6972:

It’s a good change and I hope it’s kept after this test phase on my server we managed to take half the map while ournumbered just because the other 2 servers lack of coordination.

People complaining only need to start using some tactics instead of Ktrain around the maps, is it difficult for you to find the zerg ? get better at scouting, one thing I noticed there are a lot of people sitting on camps/towers/keeps waiting to spot the enemy… that’s just ridiculous.

I bet you didn’t got on any fight while you were capping empty structures… Tell how much better than EotM this is…

I admit I was skeptical about this, but after 2 of us capped 2 towers and several camps without being descended upon by 30 people to stop us, I find it interesting and useful. Though the issue of not having enough scouts to cover all our BL properties, plus any we acquire, is still an issue. The swords were our only scouts most of the time. We might not have made it to stop the tower/keep/camp from turning, but we at least had a chance to respond. At least the WP warning is still there. Anyway, we’ll see if I still like this somewhat when the trial ends.

WvW requires the effort of everyone, not individuals, not just commanders, not just small groups or guilds. Everyone. It requires communication and teamwork. It requires coordination and tactics.

I like this change.

White swords were like a light bulb to a giant mindless moth. But now people need to think. Now people need to use scouts and plan their attacks and communicate more with each other.

I hope the white swords never return.

Edit: In response to the issue of worlds suffering due low population. Maybe the outnumbered buff can be altered so that you can only see the white swords when the outnumbered buff is active on you.

Ark Bladesteele.2943:

sminkiottone.6972:

It’s a good change and I hope it’s kept after this test phase on my server we managed to take half the map while ournumbered just because the other 2 servers lack of coordination.

People complaining only need to start using some tactics instead of Ktrain around the maps, is it difficult for you to find the zerg ? get better at scouting, one thing I noticed there are a lot of people sitting on camps/towers/keeps waiting to spot the enemy… that’s just ridiculous.

You know what happened on reset? I babysat Hills for upwards of 5 hours to get it waypointed and fortified, and I was the only scout in it. A large guild group came in, didn’t flip any camps, and build 5 guild catas. If I hadn’t been babysitting, they would have taken the keep. They managed to get both outer and inner walls down before we were able to wipe them. They tried this twice. If I had just been running around and scouting, they would have taken the keep before we ever knew it was being attacked. Luckily, I was there, and was able to call for reinforcements. It was boring as hell, completely unrewarding, but I knew it was important and made the choice to do it. I was the White Swords. Think about that for a moment.

I managed to scout around hills killing other scouts, killing and escorting dolies, flipping some camps and calling everytime enemy groups where going to hills (they try it 3/4 times), had a lot of fun and we managed to keep it safe, but you can choose to sit in an empty keep, to each theyr own

Jeknar.6184:

I bet you didn’t got on any fight while you were capping empty structures… Tell how much better than EotM this is…[/quote]

Most of the objectives where defended, some where not, but it’s like this since day 1. Maybe you forgot about golem rushes on empty keeps, towers and even garry ? or how many times the 2 south towers and sometimes bay/hills have been taken without any defense ? Oh no wait.. let’s just whine and pretend everything was perfect before…