Guild Wars 2

A number have suggested that at the Core of balance issues is the presence of Dire and TB armors. They suggest that all will be well once these armors removed as it gives persons using the same an inordinate advantage when comparing damage output to survivability against other sets.

First let me preface this by saying that in many cases the persons voicing these opinions have also made it clear they consider any condition build as kitten or one that is skill less or one they have no respect for. I am going to make the observation that for this group , they all but disqualify themselves from the debate . This akin to someone arguing against the OP nature of class XXX when they have never played the same. It my opinion that if someone wants to critique a given build or class as being OP, they should not have an innate bias against the same and should at least play said build class on a regular basis (Running in with a build, stomping someone new to the game then coming back to claim it as OP is NOT playing the class or build).

1>I play the majority of builds on power and am able to kill peoples wearing Dire. I play a power warrior who has base vitality and armor higher then most Dire builds and he is killed by other power users. Power users are not lacking in damage output when facing persons in Dire , or its armor/viality equivalent.

2>It is being claimed that “every build is a condition build”. If this the case then it follows that the use of Dire offers little in the way of added damage mitigation. The added armor/toughness does little to mitigate condition damage. If “every build a condition build” than in order to gain advantage over one another Toughness would be sacrificed for another stat.

3>Unlike maximizing power maximizing ones condition damage plays less a role in increasing damage output. This is because the number of stacks of a given condition play a greater role in increasing damage per tick. This is reflected in the condition damage formula where adding another tick of poison as example will increase damage by close to 34 while in order to get the same effect out of increasing ones damage through the Condition Stat one would need close to 600 added condition damage.

This means the difference between a 2000 condition build as opposed to a 1800 condition build is not as great. Now it also true that in increasing ones condition damage ALL damaging condition ticks will tick higher but most Condition builds focus one type of damaging condition or two at most. If as example I want more damage from Torment in my thief build, I am better served looking for another source of torment then I am trying to boost overall condition damage.

What this means in game terms is certain Condition builds can in fact increase damage output by sacrificing one of the three stats offerred up by dire for another armor set. The necromancer immediately springs to mind with many of the skills linking Critical hits to condition damage application. For this reason many necromancer condition builds use armor other then Dire. (They also are one of the most "complained about condition builds).

The reasons some of those other classes might stick to dire is not because it OP , it because their traits offer less opportunity to increase condition build application via the use of other stats (such as precision). If a thief had a trait as example that applied poison on evry crit , you would see a pile of thives that might be in dire get some precision into their builds. One of the reasons Sigil of Torment fetches such a high price at the TP is that it does exactly this, adding torment based upon a crit.

Currently I am using a hybrid build of power/condition damage on a s/p thief. He wears Carrion. His damage output is HIGHER then were I wearing Dire and focused only on Condition damage. As such when he comes up against a Dire build he is at advantage because his Condition damage the same, He gets more raw power damage, his vitality the same and the added toughness armor the other has will not do a heck a lot of good against conditions that are applied. Yes that persons Dire will help against my added power damage output but that advantage not as great as the added damage i can apply. If we trait the same number of Cleanses I will always be further yet ahead as I can mitigate a much greater percentage of his total damage.

This is like arguing that if full soldiers had the same damage as full berserkers it wouldnt be OP at all because the toughness mean nothing when you are duelling a condi.

But hes has some points and thats why condi engi for example is not seen as very strong and rarely played. He needs to play condidmg, preci, toughness and maybe some duration to deal dmg which makes him kind of squischy in combination with his few stunbreaks, low mobillity and weakness to condis. I think looking at traits of certain condi-builds would be a better way than just scrap stats. Maybe reduce dmg, cleanse, overall and overhault resistance.

schloumou.3982:

But hes has some points and thats why condi engi for example is not seen as very strong and rarely played.

No, the reason engie isnt seen as very strong is because necro is so much kittening stronger by condi overloading than any other condi build. Ele, engie, guard, warrior etc take your pick they all just dump out 2-3 different condis that is more easily cleansed, especially as groups grow larger. A necro dumping 30+ bleed stacks covered by 10 other random condis, not so much. Most condis get by with their burst stack of a single condi.

…but every build isn’t a condition build? Are people complaining about this for roaming or zergs?? If it’s that much of an issue, just spec for more condi removal.

Dawdler.8521:

schloumou.3982:

But hes has some points and thats why condi engi for example is not seen as very strong and rarely played.

No, the reason engie isnt seen as very strong is because necro is so much kittening stronger by condi overloading than any other condi build. Ele, engie, guard, warrior etc take your pick they all just dump out 2-3 different condis that is more easily cleansed, especially as groups grow larger. A necro dumping 30+ bleed stacks covered by 10 other random condis, not so much. Most condis get by with their burst stack of a single condi.

Aha….nice numbers. I will leave at this point.

Another problem with some Condi builds is they take very little effort to reach 100% Condi duration. Traits can give +33%, Runes can give up to 30%, and food give 20%. This leaves only 17% to be made up with either TB/Givers, toxic crystal or a sigil.

Dire isn’t strong, tb is.

SkyShroud.2865:

Dire isn’t strong, tb is.

Umm, what?

Because having around 3k Armor and 25k+ Health, while doing considerable DoT is not strong.

Condis in general to be looked at,not the stats.I doubt the removal of more stats is a good idea while neglecting the real issue,as they did before with pvp amus.But it Is easier to make a tanky condi build while dishing out high condi dmg compared to making a tanky power build and dealing null dmg since power is relying on 3 stats.

SkyShroud.2865:

Dire isn’t strong, tb is.

My condi necro in all exotic dire gear begs to differ. I literally smash buttons on cooldown and win fights that I clearly should not be winning.

Odokuro.5049:

SkyShroud.2865:

Dire isn’t strong, tb is.

Umm, what?

Because having around 3k Armor and 25k+ Health, while doing considerable DoT is not strong.

Because your maths fail? Tb easily mathematically higher stats than dire while at the same time boosting duration, this easily benefits high damage but low duration condition like burn.

Do you see any comparable power HOT gear that has power, precision, toughness and vitality? If you gonna say paladin, this isn’t spvp and tb do not exist in spvp and guess that is spvp way of saying tb is op.

Turk.5460:

SkyShroud.2865:

Dire isn’t strong, tb is.

My condi necro in all exotic dire gear begs to differ. I literally smash buttons on cooldown and win fights that I clearly should not be winning.

That has nothing to do with dire. Dire exist since 4 years ago, it is the boost to conditions through the balance that makes you win easily, absolutely nothing to do with dire. Then again, even before hot, a necro could melt people easily with condition on roaming but it was nerfed after that.

Turk.5460:

SkyShroud.2865:

Dire isn’t strong, tb is.

My condi necro in all exotic dire gear begs to differ. I literally smash buttons on cooldown and win fights that I clearly should not be winning.

and if you hemorrhaged some gold instead of cheaping out, it would be even more ridiculous!!

insanemaniac.2456:

Turk.5460:

SkyShroud.2865:

Dire isn’t strong, tb is.

My condi necro in all exotic dire gear begs to differ. I literally smash buttons on cooldown and win fights that I clearly should not be winning.

and if you hemorrhaged some gold instead of cheaping out, it would be even more ridiculous!!

Yeah Tb wins it over Dire for sure,the added duration adds a ton of dmg.

I personally play these “OP builds” before I lay claim how bad or skill less they are (and when I play them, I play them for a while as I too understand there are those that are easily beaten, either because they are new(er) or having a bad day). Same with the cheese DPS builds (Vault spammer, DPS GS/M+SH zerker for example).

A lot of classes condi sustain can exceed a lot of classes DPS sustain so I can agree that some condis need balancing (inb4 I play a condi engi in WvW/PvP and can pump out some wicked DoT sustain, and a burn DH in PvP when I need an easy win for a daily b/c of this the burn applications are also unbalanced imo).

SkyShroud.2865:

Turk.5460:

SkyShroud.2865:

Dire isn’t strong, tb is.

My condi necro in all exotic dire gear begs to differ. I literally smash buttons on cooldown and win fights that I clearly should not be winning.

That has nothing to do with dire. Dire exist since 4 years ago, it is the boost to conditions through the balance that makes you win easily, absolutely nothing to do with dire. Then again, even before hot, a necro could melt people easily with condition on roaming but it was nerfed after that.

It has everything to do with Dire/TB. In WvW condi builds are the tankiest offensive builds available. In sPvP condi builds are squishier than their power counter parts for every class except Mesmer. Why is there such a difference between the modes? Hint: gear stats.

Mal.1670:

…but every build isn’t a condition build? Are people complaining about this for roaming or zergs?? If it’s that much of an issue, just spec for more condi removal.

People continue to make the claim that all builds they encounter are condition builds. I have called them on that indicating such note the case given I myself play a roaming power build more often then not.

This thread is not about condition builds or power builds in general . It to refute the claim made by some that issues of balance are caused by DIRE and TB armor which I contend simply not the case.

Crinn.7864:

SkyShroud.2865:

Turk.5460:

SkyShroud.2865:

Dire isn’t strong, tb is.

My condi necro in all exotic dire gear begs to differ. I literally smash buttons on cooldown and win fights that I clearly should not be winning.

That has nothing to do with dire. Dire exist since 4 years ago, it is the boost to conditions through the balance that makes you win easily, absolutely nothing to do with dire. Then again, even before hot, a necro could melt people easily with condition on roaming but it was nerfed after that.

It has everything to do with Dire/TB. In WvW condi builds are the tankiest offensive builds available. In sPvP condi builds are squishier than their power counter parts for every class except Mesmer. Why is there such a difference between the modes? Hint: gear stats.

As pointed out your post a contradiction. Dire armor does little to create a tanky build against another condition build. The more condition builds there are the less tanky the build becomes in relative terms.

What COUNTERS condition builds is not toughness or adding toughness. If you want to counter a condition build you trait cleanse , vitality and healing from a defensive perspective, or try and pump out more damage over a shorter period of time.

That said If a person does sacrifice toughness so as to battle a DIRE user with those other stats , then he in turn becomes more vulnerable to power builds.

A necro condition build in carrion facing a Necro condition build in Dire is just as tanky given the added toughness the Necro in dire has does little to protect against condition damage. There certainly less raw damage taken due to that dire but that more then made up for by the added power of the necro in Carrion. There no practical reason in such a fight that Necro in Dire should outlast the one in carrion.

Bigpapasmurf.5623:

I personally play these “OP builds” before I lay claim how bad or skill less they are (and when I play them, I play them for a while as I too understand there are those that are easily beaten, either because they are new(er) or having a bad day). Same with the cheese DPS builds (Vault spammer, DPS GS/M+SH zerker for example).

A lot of classes condi sustain can exceed a lot of classes DPS sustain so I can agree that some condis need balancing (inb4 I play a condi engi in WvW/PvP and can pump out some wicked DoT sustain, and a burn DH in PvP when I need an easy win for a daily b/c of this the burn applications are also unbalanced imo).

I played the suposedly OP d/d daredevil death blossom build for about 3 months. I encountered enemies and groups of enemies that fell quickly to it. I encountered enemies that dismantled it in short order. I then retraited out of that build and recognize its shortcomings rarely dying to one.

A simple observation. If a given build can be defeated with regularity by an enemy player and by more then just 2 or three classes (which is the case with the DB DrD build) it can not be deemed an OP build.

Dawdler.8521:

This is like arguing that if full soldiers had the same damage as full berserkers it wouldnt be OP at all because the toughness mean nothing when you are duelling a condi.

No it is not.

A Condition Necro in DIRE is NOT putting out the same damage as a Condition Necro In Carrion or one that traits for higher Crit rates. The latter is putting out more damage.

A Condition Thief in Carrion is putting out more damage then a condition thief in dire.

babazhook.6805:

Bigpapasmurf.5623:

I personally play these “OP builds” before I lay claim how bad or skill less they are (and when I play them, I play them for a while as I too understand there are those that are easily beaten, either because they are new(er) or having a bad day). Same with the cheese DPS builds (Vault spammer, DPS GS/M+SH zerker for example).

A lot of classes condi sustain can exceed a lot of classes DPS sustain so I can agree that some condis need balancing (inb4 I play a condi engi in WvW/PvP and can pump out some wicked DoT sustain, and a burn DH in PvP when I need an easy win for a daily b/c of this the burn applications are also unbalanced imo).

I played the suposedly OP d/d daredevil death blossom build for about 3 months. I encountered enemies and groups of enemies that fell quickly to it. I encountered enemies that dismantled it in short order. I then retraited out of that build and recognize its shortcomings rarely dying to one.

A simple observation. If a given build can be defeated with regularity by an enemy player and by more then just 2 or three classes (which is the case with the DB DrD build) it can not be deemed an OP build.

Oh I played it too, don’t get me wrong. It was fun at first as I was wrecking small groups but felt dirty of the cheese (played it to learn its evade frames). After experiencing it’s short comings (Not as much mobility and no good ranged condi damage for starters) I started to see some people doing well against me (pewpew druids were still a pain in my butt, trapper DH not so much anymore tho). Range is def a weakness. Anything with over 1k range poses a decent threat. Baiting out the init draining dodges (siggy and physical heal are what you want to force out) is crucial. Issue is they are still unbalanced due to the amount of evades they spew out while dealing a very decent amount of DoT output. If it wasn’t for the 12 back to back evades while doing the amount of DoT, wouldn’t be so bad….but if you can bait out those 12 evades and cleanse when necessary, you are golden (Which means its a l2p issue despite the imbalance)

once you learn to beat their evades, you already won…thank and if you can load them up with condi’s, stop attacking them and wait out the ticks. If you dont attack, they can’t remove that many condis effectively.

babazhook.6805:

Crinn.7864:

SkyShroud.2865:

Turk.5460:

SkyShroud.2865:

Dire isn’t strong, tb is.

My condi necro in all exotic dire gear begs to differ. I literally smash buttons on cooldown and win fights that I clearly should not be winning.

That has nothing to do with dire. Dire exist since 4 years ago, it is the boost to conditions through the balance that makes you win easily, absolutely nothing to do with dire. Then again, even before hot, a necro could melt people easily with condition on roaming but it was nerfed after that.

It has everything to do with Dire/TB. In WvW condi builds are the tankiest offensive builds available. In sPvP condi builds are squishier than their power counter parts for every class except Mesmer. Why is there such a difference between the modes? Hint: gear stats.

As pointed out your post a contradiction. Dire armor does little to create a tanky build against another condition build. The more condition builds there are the less tanky the build becomes in relative terms.

What COUNTERS condition builds is not toughness or adding toughness. If you want to counter a condition build you trait cleanse , vitality and healing from a defensive perspective, or try and pump out more damage over a shorter period of time.

That said If a person does sacrifice toughness so as to battle a DIRE user with those other stats , then he in turn becomes more vulnerable to power builds.

A necro condition build in carrion facing a Necro condition build in Dire is just as tanky given the added toughness the Necro in dire has does little to protect against condition damage. There certainly less raw damage taken due to that dire but that more then made up for by the added power of the necro in Carrion. There no practical reason in such a fight that Necro in Dire should outlast the one in carrion.

You do know that Dire has secondary stat vitality and that the only harder counter to such a build would be a nomad’s full-tank, right?

You do also know that vitality counters power damage efficacy, right?

You do realize your entire argument here is based on condi vs condi, while Dire is the hardest-countering set to power builds out there due to its damage:EHP ratio, right?

The argument for comparison would be more consistent for Carrion vs Valkyrie, not Dire.

And there is very good reason to suspect that Dire would outlast carrion in a fight; Dire ticks for more damage from utility consumables which scale both toughness and vitality into condition damage, and the power component of carrion would be substantially negated into rough equality hit-for-hit due to carrion’s lack of toughness not inhibiting the damage of no-power dire.

Which of course, depending on the profession, gets even more favorable for dire the more might which is stacked, given how %-wise, the efficiency favors higher toughness to higher base power.

Mathematically, Dire is and has been a problematic stat distribution since its inception. The only thing holding it back was the lower damage/burst throughput of condition builds early on. Even still, stat-for-stat, it’s always had the best efficiency in every way compared to other options, TB aside (although even some will argue Dire is still better than TB due to its higher tick damage and base HP).

DeceiverX.8361:

babazhook.6805:

Crinn.7864:

SkyShroud.2865:

Turk.5460:

SkyShroud.2865:

Dire isn’t strong, tb is.

My condi necro in all exotic dire gear begs to differ. I literally smash buttons on cooldown and win fights that I clearly should not be winning.

That has nothing to do with dire. Dire exist since 4 years ago, it is the boost to conditions through the balance that makes you win easily, absolutely nothing to do with dire. Then again, even before hot, a necro could melt people easily with condition on roaming but it was nerfed after that.

It has everything to do with Dire/TB. In WvW condi builds are the tankiest offensive builds available. In sPvP condi builds are squishier than their power counter parts for every class except Mesmer. Why is there such a difference between the modes? Hint: gear stats.

As pointed out your post a contradiction. Dire armor does little to create a tanky build against another condition build. The more condition builds there are the less tanky the build becomes in relative terms.

What COUNTERS condition builds is not toughness or adding toughness. If you want to counter a condition build you trait cleanse , vitality and healing from a defensive perspective, or try and pump out more damage over a shorter period of time.

That said If a person does sacrifice toughness so as to battle a DIRE user with those other stats , then he in turn becomes more vulnerable to power builds.

A necro condition build in carrion facing a Necro condition build in Dire is just as tanky given the added toughness the Necro in dire has does little to protect against condition damage. There certainly less raw damage taken due to that dire but that more then made up for by the added power of the necro in Carrion. There no practical reason in such a fight that Necro in Dire should outlast the one in carrion.

You do know that Dire has secondary stat vitality and that the only harder counter to such a build would be a nomad’s full-tank, right?

You do also know that vitality counters power damage efficacy, right?

You do realize your entire argument here is based on condi vs condi, while Dire is the hardest-countering set to power builds out there due to its damage:EHP ratio, right?

The argument for comparison would be more consistent for Carrion vs Valkyrie, not Dire.

And there is very good reason to suspect that Dire would outlast carrion in a fight; Dire ticks for more damage from utility consumables which scale both toughness and vitality into condition damage, and the power component of carrion would be substantially negated into rough equality hit-for-hit due to carrion’s lack of toughness not inhibiting the damage of no-power dire.

Which of course, depending on the profession, gets even more favorable for dire the more might which is stacked, given how %-wise, the efficiency favors higher toughness to higher base power.

Mathematically, Dire is and has been a problematic stat distribution since its inception. The only thing holding it back was the lower damage/burst throughput of condition builds early on. Even still, stat-for-stat, it’s always had the best efficiency in every way compared to other options, TB aside (although even some will argue Dire is still better than TB due to its higher tick damage and base HP).

You probably weren’t paying attention to what he said. He said toughness has no bearing on condi, so a dire against a carrion may lose because carrion has additional power stats on top of its condi damage. Dire gives only condi damage which toughness has no effect on.

DeceiverX.8361:

babazhook.6805:

Crinn.7864:

SkyShroud.2865:

Turk.5460:

SkyShroud.2865:

Dire isn’t strong, tb is.

My condi necro in all exotic dire gear begs to differ. I literally smash buttons on cooldown and win fights that I clearly should not be winning.

That has nothing to do with dire. Dire exist since 4 years ago, it is the boost to conditions through the balance that makes you win easily, absolutely nothing to do with dire. Then again, even before hot, a necro could melt people easily with condition on roaming but it was nerfed after that.

It has everything to do with Dire/TB. In WvW condi builds are the tankiest offensive builds available. In sPvP condi builds are squishier than their power counter parts for every class except Mesmer. Why is there such a difference between the modes? Hint: gear stats.

As pointed out your post a contradiction. Dire armor does little to create a tanky build against another condition build. The more condition builds there are the less tanky the build becomes in relative terms.

What COUNTERS condition builds is not toughness or adding toughness. If you want to counter a condition build you trait cleanse , vitality and healing from a defensive perspective, or try and pump out more damage over a shorter period of time.

That said If a person does sacrifice toughness so as to battle a DIRE user with those other stats , then he in turn becomes more vulnerable to power builds.

A necro condition build in carrion facing a Necro condition build in Dire is just as tanky given the added toughness the Necro in dire has does little to protect against condition damage. There certainly less raw damage taken due to that dire but that more then made up for by the added power of the necro in Carrion. There no practical reason in such a fight that Necro in Dire should outlast the one in carrion.

You do know that Dire has secondary stat vitality and that the only harder counter to such a build would be a nomad’s full-tank, right?

You do also know that vitality counters power damage efficacy, right?

You do realize your entire argument here is based on condi vs condi, while Dire is the hardest-countering set to power builds out there due to its damage:EHP ratio, right?

The argument for comparison would be more consistent for Carrion vs Valkyrie, not Dire.

And there is very good reason to suspect that Dire would outlast carrion in a fight; Dire ticks for more damage from utility consumables which scale both toughness and vitality into condition damage, and the power component of carrion would be substantially negated into rough equality hit-for-hit due to carrion’s lack of toughness not inhibiting the damage of no-power dire.

Which of course, depending on the profession, gets even more favorable for dire the more might which is stacked, given how %-wise, the efficiency favors higher toughness to higher base power.

Mathematically, Dire is and has been a problematic stat distribution since its inception. The only thing holding it back was the lower damage/burst throughput of condition builds early on. Even still, stat-for-stat, it’s always had the best efficiency in every way compared to other options, TB aside (although even some will argue Dire is still better than TB due to its higher tick damage and base HP).

Carrion has Vitality as a second stat. Carrion has same viatlity as DIRE.

A person In carrion has as much vitality and as much condition damage output as one in Dire. Utility consumable add is margnal. Assuming a 1k toughness advantage at 6 percent that all of 60 added condition damage.

Dire does little to defend against condition builds.

Carrion pumps out more damage then does Dire. Carrion against Dire is at advantage.

I have a warrior that wears Settlers. This warrior has a base health of 22k (as much as any thief in Dire as example)

This warrior has armor of over 4k.

This warrior has regen/adrenal/signet ticks of well over 1k per second. This warrior has marginally less Condition damage then a person in dire and MUCH greater healing via any number of sources wherin due to the high armor Health can be kept near peak because of the huge ongoing heals (Just as example If I take to the limit over healing signet the heal is 13000 every 24 seconds. This coupled with adrenal that can tick at 560 per second , regen ticking 250 per second and can even trait RR for a 7k+ heal on stun break or a shout for a heal of well over2k per shout.

This warrior in settlers does not put out as much damage as one in dire but has far more sustain and if he fought a warrior in Dire would simply outheal the added damage dire can do.

I speak from experience. You speculate. I took a DD thief using DB condition build and put him in a mic of Apothecary and Shamans. He fought head to head a thief using the same build wearing Dire and beat him each and every time they faced. The extra damage the other put out was more then made up for with the added healing my build had. In fact with this build GI was usable out of ACRO because health was nearly always over the threshold meaning Confusion , weakness vulnerability and slow were readily cleansed. This in turn made the EA cleanses more efficient.

I suggest you go in and try it.

Idk i feel like these 2 stats play quite a big part in the situation wvw is in if you consider that in order to win in wvw zerging its just a matter of stacking necros and other condi or cele bs

babazhook.6805:

DeceiverX.8361:

babazhook.6805:

Crinn.7864:

SkyShroud.2865:

Turk.5460:

SkyShroud.2865:

Dire isn’t strong, tb is.

My condi necro in all exotic dire gear begs to differ. I literally smash buttons on cooldown and win fights that I clearly should not be winning.

That has nothing to do with dire. Dire exist since 4 years ago, it is the boost to conditions through the balance that makes you win easily, absolutely nothing to do with dire. Then again, even before hot, a necro could melt people easily with condition on roaming but it was nerfed after that.

It has everything to do with Dire/TB. In WvW condi builds are the tankiest offensive builds available. In sPvP condi builds are squishier than their power counter parts for every class except Mesmer. Why is there such a difference between the modes? Hint: gear stats.

As pointed out your post a contradiction. Dire armor does little to create a tanky build against another condition build. The more condition builds there are the less tanky the build becomes in relative terms.

What COUNTERS condition builds is not toughness or adding toughness. If you want to counter a condition build you trait cleanse , vitality and healing from a defensive perspective, or try and pump out more damage over a shorter period of time.

That said If a person does sacrifice toughness so as to battle a DIRE user with those other stats , then he in turn becomes more vulnerable to power builds.

A necro condition build in carrion facing a Necro condition build in Dire is just as tanky given the added toughness the Necro in dire has does little to protect against condition damage. There certainly less raw damage taken due to that dire but that more then made up for by the added power of the necro in Carrion. There no practical reason in such a fight that Necro in Dire should outlast the one in carrion.

You do know that Dire has secondary stat vitality and that the only harder counter to such a build would be a nomad’s full-tank, right?

You do also know that vitality counters power damage efficacy, right?

You do realize your entire argument here is based on condi vs condi, while Dire is the hardest-countering set to power builds out there due to its damage:EHP ratio, right?

The argument for comparison would be more consistent for Carrion vs Valkyrie, not Dire.

And there is very good reason to suspect that Dire would outlast carrion in a fight; Dire ticks for more damage from utility consumables which scale both toughness and vitality into condition damage, and the power component of carrion would be substantially negated into rough equality hit-for-hit due to carrion’s lack of toughness not inhibiting the damage of no-power dire.

Which of course, depending on the profession, gets even more favorable for dire the more might which is stacked, given how %-wise, the efficiency favors higher toughness to higher base power.

Mathematically, Dire is and has been a problematic stat distribution since its inception. The only thing holding it back was the lower damage/burst throughput of condition builds early on. Even still, stat-for-stat, it’s always had the best efficiency in every way compared to other options, TB aside (although even some will argue Dire is still better than TB due to its higher tick damage and base HP).

Carrion has Vitality as a second stat. Carrion has same viatlity as DIRE.

A person In carrion has as much vitality and as much condition damage output as one in Dire. Utility consumable add is margnal. Assuming a 1 toughness advantage at 6 percent that all of 60 added condition damage.

Dire does little to defend against condition builds.

Carrion pumps out more damage then does Dire. Carrion against Dire is at advantage.

I have a warrior that wears Settlers. This warrior has a base health of 22k (as much as any thief in Dire as example)

This warrior has armor of over 4k.

This warrior has regen/adrenal/signet ticks of well over 1k per second. This warrior has marginally less Condition damage then a person in dire and MUCH greater healing via any number of sources wherin due to the high armor Health can be kept near peak because of the huge ongoing heals (Just as example If I take to the limit over healing signet the heal is 13000 every 24 seconds. This coupled with adrenal that can tick at 560 per second , regen ticking 250 per second and can even trait RR for a 7k+ heal on stun break or a shout for a heal of well over2k per shout.

This warrior in settlers does not put out as much damage as one in dire but has far more sustain and if he fought a warrior in Dire would simply outheal the added damage dire can do.

I speak from experience. You speculate. I took a DD thief using DB condition build and put him in a mic of Apothecary and Shamans. He fought head to head a thief using the same build wearing Dire and beat him each and every time they faced. The extra damage the other put out was more then made up for with the added healing my build had. In fact with this build GI was usable out of ACRO because health was nearly always over the threshold meaning Confusion , weakness vulnerability and slow were readily cleansed. This in turn made the EA cleanses more efficient.

I suggest you go in and try it.

said warrior would get poison from the thief, said warrior would be on the floor after 10 sec.

zealex.9410:

babazhook.6805:

DeceiverX.8361:

babazhook.6805:

Crinn.7864:

SkyShroud.2865:

Turk.5460:

SkyShroud.2865:

Dire isn’t strong, tb is.

My condi necro in all exotic dire gear begs to differ. I literally smash buttons on cooldown and win fights that I clearly should not be winning.

That has nothing to do with dire. Dire exist since 4 years ago, it is the boost to conditions through the balance that makes you win easily, absolutely nothing to do with dire. Then again, even before hot, a necro could melt people easily with condition on roaming but it was nerfed after that.

It has everything to do with Dire/TB. In WvW condi builds are the tankiest offensive builds available. In sPvP condi builds are squishier than their power counter parts for every class except Mesmer. Why is there such a difference between the modes? Hint: gear stats.

As pointed out your post a contradiction. Dire armor does little to create a tanky build against another condition build. The more condition builds there are the less tanky the build becomes in relative terms.

What COUNTERS condition builds is not toughness or adding toughness. If you want to counter a condition build you trait cleanse , vitality and healing from a defensive perspective, or try and pump out more damage over a shorter period of time.

That said If a person does sacrifice toughness so as to battle a DIRE user with those other stats , then he in turn becomes more vulnerable to power builds.

A necro condition build in carrion facing a Necro condition build in Dire is just as tanky given the added toughness the Necro in dire has does little to protect against condition damage. There certainly less raw damage taken due to that dire but that more then made up for by the added power of the necro in Carrion. There no practical reason in such a fight that Necro in Dire should outlast the one in carrion.

You do know that Dire has secondary stat vitality and that the only harder counter to such a build would be a nomad’s full-tank, right?

You do also know that vitality counters power damage efficacy, right?

You do realize your entire argument here is based on condi vs condi, while Dire is the hardest-countering set to power builds out there due to its damage:EHP ratio, right?

The argument for comparison would be more consistent for Carrion vs Valkyrie, not Dire.

And there is very good reason to suspect that Dire would outlast carrion in a fight; Dire ticks for more damage from utility consumables which scale both toughness and vitality into condition damage, and the power component of carrion would be substantially negated into rough equality hit-for-hit due to carrion’s lack of toughness not inhibiting the damage of no-power dire.

Which of course, depending on the profession, gets even more favorable for dire the more might which is stacked, given how %-wise, the efficiency favors higher toughness to higher base power.

Mathematically, Dire is and has been a problematic stat distribution since its inception. The only thing holding it back was the lower damage/burst throughput of condition builds early on. Even still, stat-for-stat, it’s always had the best efficiency in every way compared to other options, TB aside (although even some will argue Dire is still better than TB due to its higher tick damage and base HP).

Carrion has Vitality as a second stat. Carrion has same viatlity as DIRE.

A person In carrion has as much vitality and as much condition damage output as one in Dire. Utility consumable add is margnal. Assuming a 1 toughness advantage at 6 percent that all of 60 added condition damage.

Dire does little to defend against condition builds.

Carrion pumps out more damage then does Dire. Carrion against Dire is at advantage.

I have a warrior that wears Settlers. This warrior has a base health of 22k (as much as any thief in Dire as example)

This warrior has armor of over 4k.

This warrior has regen/adrenal/signet ticks of well over 1k per second. This warrior has marginally less Condition damage then a person in dire and MUCH greater healing via any number of sources wherin due to the high armor Health can be kept near peak because of the huge ongoing heals (Just as example If I take to the limit over healing signet the heal is 13000 every 24 seconds. This coupled with adrenal that can tick at 560 per second , regen ticking 250 per second and can even trait RR for a 7k+ heal on stun break or a shout for a heal of well over2k per shout.

This warrior in settlers does not put out as much damage as one in dire but has far more sustain and if he fought a warrior in Dire would simply outheal the added damage dire can do.

I speak from experience. You speculate. I took a DD thief using DB condition build and put him in a mic of Apothecary and Shamans. He fought head to head a thief using the same build wearing Dire and beat him each and every time they faced. The extra damage the other put out was more then made up for with the added healing my build had. In fact with this build GI was usable out of ACRO because health was nearly always over the threshold meaning Confusion , weakness vulnerability and slow were readily cleansed. This in turn made the EA cleanses more efficient.

I suggest you go in and try it.

said warrior would get poison from the thief, said warrior would be on the floor after 10 sec.

Your point? A warrior in dire would not last any longer .

Im refering to a condi thief in which case yes he wouldnt but what about any power class? Both dire and traib hard counter powerclasses. Im not asking for both these stat types to be removed i ask for their stats to be normalised with one losing vit and the other losing toughness. In the case of ire remove which ever of the 2 and give either prec or power.

zealex.9410:

Im refering to a condi thief in which case yes he wouldnt but what about any power class? Both dire and traib hard counter powerclasses. Im not asking for both these stat types to be removed i ask for their stats to be normalised with one losing vit and the other losing toughness. In the case of ire remove which ever of the 2 and give either prec or power.

Yet I play power and do not have all these issues people seem to have killing people in Dire. I have already given the example of my Thief built to hard counter condtion classes wherein he loaded with cleanses.

That said there is an underlying problem with “removing a stat from either dire or TB” as is being suggested. This is the very OPPOSITE of balance. What is being said in essence is “Condition users must take a stat that is of no benefit to their build”. This akin to saying a power build “must take Condition damage”

When we look at pure condition versus builds everyone looks at it from only one side.

Condition builds do not benefit from Ferocity to any great degree. They do not benefit from Precision (with some small exceptions). They do not benefit from Power.

The only stat a power build can not benefit from is Condition damage. (healing is a wash)

What you are saying is “we can not allow a condition build to benefit from Toughness and or Vitality They must take a stat that conditions can not benefit from”

How is this equitable? The end result is of Healing , Power, Condition damage, Precision, Toughness, Vitality and Ferocity" condition builds are only allowed Condition damage and one of Toughness or Vitality to enhance their build.

babazhook.6805:

zealex.9410:

Im refering to a condi thief in which case yes he wouldnt but what about any power class? Both dire and traib hard counter powerclasses. Im not asking for both these stat types to be removed i ask for their stats to be normalised with one losing vit and the other losing toughness. In the case of ire remove which ever of the 2 and give either prec or power.

Yet I play power and do not have all these issues people seem to have killing people in Dire. I have already given the example of my Thief built to hard counter condtion classes wherein he loaded with cleanses.

That said there is an underlying problem with “removing a stat from either dire or TB” as is being suggested. This is the very OPPOSITE of balance. What is being said in essence is “Condition users must take a stat that is of no benefit to their build”. This akin to saying a power build “must take Condition damage”

When we look at pure condition versus builds everyone looks at it from only one side.

Condition builds do not benefit from Ferocity to any great degree. They do not benefit from Precision (with some small exceptions). They do not benefit from Power.

The only stat a power build can not benefit from is Condition damage. (healing is a wash)

What you are saying is “we can not allow a condition build to benefit from Toughness and or Vitality They must take a stat that conditions can not benefit from”

How is this equitable? You are closing off more then have the attributes to a condition build making them of little benefit while the only one a power build can not work off of Condition damage.

In this case what he meant was that power needed 3 stats to work: power ferocity and precision whereas condi doesn’t need 3 stats. Only 2 at most which is condi dura and condi dmg. Hence condi builds reign supreme because they can use the space needed for prec and ferocity to stack up on survivability. Which was always balanced by the fact that condi hurt less before.

Roxanne.6140:

babazhook.6805:

zealex.9410:

Im refering to a condi thief in which case yes he wouldnt but what about any power class? Both dire and traib hard counter powerclasses. Im not asking for both these stat types to be removed i ask for their stats to be normalised with one losing vit and the other losing toughness. In the case of ire remove which ever of the 2 and give either prec or power.

Yet I play power and do not have all these issues people seem to have killing people in Dire. I have already given the example of my Thief built to hard counter condtion classes wherein he loaded with cleanses.

That said there is an underlying problem with “removing a stat from either dire or TB” as is being suggested. This is the very OPPOSITE of balance. What is being said in essence is “Condition users must take a stat that is of no benefit to their build”. This akin to saying a power build “must take Condition damage”

When we look at pure condition versus builds everyone looks at it from only one side.

Condition builds do not benefit from Ferocity to any great degree. They do not benefit from Precision (with some small exceptions). They do not benefit from Power.

The only stat a power build can not benefit from is Condition damage. (healing is a wash)

What you are saying is “we can not allow a condition build to benefit from Toughness and or Vitality They must take a stat that conditions can not benefit from”

How is this equitable? You are closing off more then have the attributes to a condition build making them of little benefit while the only one a power build can not work off of Condition damage.

In this case what he meant was that power needed 3 stats to work: power ferocity and precision whereas condi doesn’t need 3 stats. Only 2 at most which is condi dura and condi dmg. Hence condi builds reign supreme because they can use the space needed for prec and ferocity to stack up on survivability. Which was always balanced by the fact that condi hurt less before.

But power does not need to take those three stats via gear in order to make a viable build. They choose to. Power builds have more choices as to what they will use to enhance their builds. People confuse more choices with being FORCED to make those choices.

As example My power warrior does not use precision gear yet has close to 90 percent crit rate when Fury up. He can do this via traits. My Thief can trait a whole pile of Ferocity out of the CS line meaning it not required that he get it all from gear. Fury on its own is like 420 precision.

My power theif in Valkyrie gear uses Daredevil runes. It traited to have ;ots of dodges and has a sigil of intel on one weapon set. It has all the crits it needs without traiting for precision via gear stats.

babazhook.6805:

Roxanne.6140:

babazhook.6805:

zealex.9410:

Im refering to a condi thief in which case yes he wouldnt but what about any power class? Both dire and traib hard counter powerclasses. Im not asking for both these stat types to be removed i ask for their stats to be normalised with one losing vit and the other losing toughness. In the case of ire remove which ever of the 2 and give either prec or power.

Yet I play power and do not have all these issues people seem to have killing people in Dire. I have already given the example of my Thief built to hard counter condtion classes wherein he loaded with cleanses.

That said there is an underlying problem with “removing a stat from either dire or TB” as is being suggested. This is the very OPPOSITE of balance. What is being said in essence is “Condition users must take a stat that is of no benefit to their build”. This akin to saying a power build “must take Condition damage”

When we look at pure condition versus builds everyone looks at it from only one side.

Condition builds do not benefit from Ferocity to any great degree. They do not benefit from Precision (with some small exceptions). They do not benefit from Power.

The only stat a power build can not benefit from is Condition damage. (healing is a wash)

What you are saying is “we can not allow a condition build to benefit from Toughness and or Vitality They must take a stat that conditions can not benefit from”

How is this equitable? You are closing off more then have the attributes to a condition build making them of little benefit while the only one a power build can not work off of Condition damage.

In this case what he meant was that power needed 3 stats to work: power ferocity and precision whereas condi doesn’t need 3 stats. Only 2 at most which is condi dura and condi dmg. Hence condi builds reign supreme because they can use the space needed for prec and ferocity to stack up on survivability. Which was always balanced by the fact that condi hurt less before.

But power does not need to take those three stats via gear in order to make a viable build. They choose to. Power builds have more choices as to what they will use to enhance their builds. People confuse more choices with being FORCED to make those choices.

As example My power warrior does not use precision gear yet has close to 90 percent crit rate when Fury up. He can do this via traits. My Thief can trait a whole pile of Ferocity out of the CS line meaning it not required that he get it all from gear. Fury on its own is like 420 precision.

My power theif in Valkyrie gear uses Daredevil runes. It traited to have ;ots of dodges and has a sigil of intel on one weapon set. It has all the crits it needs without traiting for precision via gear stats.

For the context of this discussion, we are only talking about gear as it is only a subset of the things that can give stats. If you want to extend the conversation to traits and skills, then similarly, condi builds do not need to utilize their traits to give prec and ferocity and can choose instead to trait for more offensive tactics like cc, stun bla. What is perceived as being imbalanced is the need for 3 stats vs 2 stats (condi dura is arguable). The need determines how far you have to go to achieve the same result. It is like in real life, some people need only work 1 hour a week to earn a kitten ton of money whilst others must work till they drop to get less. If you do not infer from this, then I will thus far be unable to proceed with further discussion.

Roxanne.6140:

babazhook.6805:

Roxanne.6140:

babazhook.6805:

zealex.9410:

Im refering to a condi thief in which case yes he wouldnt but what about any power class? Both dire and traib hard counter powerclasses. Im not asking for both these stat types to be removed i ask for their stats to be normalised with one losing vit and the other losing toughness. In the case of ire remove which ever of the 2 and give either prec or power.

Yet I play power and do not have all these issues people seem to have killing people in Dire. I have already given the example of my Thief built to hard counter condtion classes wherein he loaded with cleanses.

That said there is an underlying problem with “removing a stat from either dire or TB” as is being suggested. This is the very OPPOSITE of balance. What is being said in essence is “Condition users must take a stat that is of no benefit to their build”. This akin to saying a power build “must take Condition damage”

When we look at pure condition versus builds everyone looks at it from only one side.

Condition builds do not benefit from Ferocity to any great degree. They do not benefit from Precision (with some small exceptions). They do not benefit from Power.

The only stat a power build can not benefit from is Condition damage. (healing is a wash)

What you are saying is “we can not allow a condition build to benefit from Toughness and or Vitality They must take a stat that conditions can not benefit from”

How is this equitable? You are closing off more then have the attributes to a condition build making them of little benefit while the only one a power build can not work off of Condition damage.

In this case what he meant was that power needed 3 stats to work: power ferocity and precision whereas condi doesn’t need 3 stats. Only 2 at most which is condi dura and condi dmg. Hence condi builds reign supreme because they can use the space needed for prec and ferocity to stack up on survivability. Which was always balanced by the fact that condi hurt less before.

But power does not need to take those three stats via gear in order to make a viable build. They choose to. Power builds have more choices as to what they will use to enhance their builds. People confuse more choices with being FORCED to make those choices.

As example My power warrior does not use precision gear yet has close to 90 percent crit rate when Fury up. He can do this via traits. My Thief can trait a whole pile of Ferocity out of the CS line meaning it not required that he get it all from gear. Fury on its own is like 420 precision.

My power theif in Valkyrie gear uses Daredevil runes. It traited to have ;ots of dodges and has a sigil of intel on one weapon set. It has all the crits it needs without traiting for precision via gear stats.

For the context of this discussion, we are only talking about gear as it is only a subset of the things that can give stats. If you want to extend the conversation to traits and skills, then similarly, condi builds do not need to utilize their traits to give prec and ferocity and can choose instead to trait for more offensive tactics like cc, stun bla. What is perceived as being imbalanced is the need for 3 stats vs 2 stats (condi dura is arguable). The need determines how far you have to go to achieve the same result. It is like in real life, some people need only work 1 hour a week to earn a kitten ton of money whilst others must work till they drop to get less. If you do not infer from this, then I will thus far be unable to proceed with further discussion.

I disagree entirely. The claim is made that DIRE and condition builds OP because they only have to trait one stat and this relates directly to the origin of the thread wherein people are calling for DIRE to be removed from game as a solution to this problem.

I am pointing out the reality is that Power builds in fact just have MORE choices and these choices are not forced on them.

It like this. A kid gets a potato to eat every night for supper. He is told he can watch TV after he eats his supper. Another kid gets to choose from a menu what he wants for supper and because the menu selection so large it takes him longer to choose and to eat. He then complains that because kid one only gets to choose a potato kid one gets to watch more TV.

The reality is that Power builds have more choices. they are not forced to make those choices. They choose to make them and then complain when they made the wrong choice. Power builds can CHOOSE to take less power or ferocity or precision and get some added toughness and or vitality. Using traits as an example I have shown how they can do that without overly impacting damage. You do not NEED 230 percent damage on crits.

As I stated previously many Necromancers do not use Dire. They decide to get some precision into the build so as to take advantge of various on crit add condition traits which increases overall damage. When compared to other classes that build for conditions they have more choices in this regard and are thus more willing to give up Dire.

Were the same options available to others they too would give up dire so as to increase overall condition damage. That those choices are not there (unless one goes hybrid) does not translate to Dire and TB being OP.

Power builds are rewarded via Precision and ferocity when they sacrifice Toughness and vitality for those stats with much greater damage output. There is no like reward for condition builds. A greater number of “stats” are of less use to them and people are suggesting as a fix that even more of those stats become of less use as in not allowing them to be included in Condition sets.

I do not see that as fair or balanced in the least.

so if a soldier geared character fought against a dire geared character, who would win?

Roxanne.6140:

so if a soldier geared character fought against a dire geared character, who would win?

The game mechanic is a bit more complex…

Actually the best power based counter stat to dire/tb is marauder plus condi cleanses. And here we can see that condi reaper and condi mesmer are broken as:

condi reaper negates power damage in various ways like 50% power damage reduction in shroud combined with lots of life force combined with perma weakness combined with might corruption.

condi mesmer spams absurd amounts of confusion and torment while being ultra mobile punishing you for moving and using skills to catch up. Super frustrating to fight against – even more than fighting a PI teef on a GS reaper.

The removal of dire/tb would solve these classes imbalance as it would be much easier to burst them. Fixing skills and traits should also get the job done, but then more squishy condi stat combinations would become unviable.

Btw.: Soldiers is not meant to counter condi. It’s a brute force stat combination to live as long as possible in a zerg fight where 20 players focus on one target – otherwise you can’t kill anything with this gear (I have a full soldiers set on my reaper and it’s pathetic).

Roxanne.6140:

so if a soldier geared character fought against a dire geared character, who would win?

It is not the dire gear doing the winning, It is the conditions the condition player can apply.

I can beat a power build in soldiers using settlers or shamans or apothecary.

So last night I hit another warrior (full beserker stat like me) for 10k evis (core warrior with might stacks)

I then hit a dire/tb reaper for 5k evis. No weakness on me as bersker stance was up and the 5k was a crit, infact I hot him twice and both were 5k. Now the only dmg reduction they get is while be in shroud or from spectral skills if I remember correctly.

So yeah ofc dire/tb are not an issue.

Condition gear (Dire/TB) alone offeres zero dmg. Yes, absolutely no dmg, so even less than soldiers. Why? Because without condition application a build won’t deal any condition dmg no matter what stats. It is different for power, because pretty much every attack deals at least some direct dmg (I know, there are very few exceptions). Of course not all attacks are equally efficient in dealing power dmg, but the difference is not as huge compared to conditions.

You can not compare gear stats in a vacuum and claim A is better than B. Put dire and soldier on the same build and what’s better will depend entirely on the build, not on the gear. Gear doesn’t define builds. It supplements builds and can make op builds even stronger, but it is not what makes said builds op in the first place. So please stop arguments like dire is better than soldier or dire deals more dmg than zerker and stuff like that, because it is absolute nonesense. It always depends on the build (class, skills, traits, …) and those builds can and should be balanced arround existing gear.

Removing gear might tone down a few op builds, but it will also destroy lots of already weak builds. It won’t increase balance, it will just hurt diversity.

I’d like to briefly point out that cleanse throws a nasty variable into this discussion.

Without cleanse a soldiers vs Dire battle will result in Dire winning hands down. A soldiers build with a lot of cleanse will beat the Dire.

Further, build matters a lot. Even if a build uses a lot of cleanse that doesn’t make it a good build (it still needs to enhance damage through trait synergy with the skills). All these complaints about necro keep mentioning power damage reduction traits. Maybe that’s your issue and not Dire? Blaming it on the armor is hardly fair.

I feel most of the complaints about Dire boil down to complaints about cleanse, class vs class balance, and the classic problem that some builds/players are simply better than others. It’s an illusion that everything is easier when you take out stat combinations. It’s actually harder because now all the condition builds that were using Dire swap to even higher DPS builds and suddenly everything gets “worse” because “condi builds are hitting harder than ever.”

I use Deadshot in pvp. It is more effective in small scale than Dire would be (at same amount of available stats). Even if Dire were offered I would take the Deadshot option. I take Dire in WvW so I can roam and survive being jumped by 3-5 people. Cleanse, toughness, damage reduction traits and mobility are what save me. Dire is just a factor I use because the meta remains power damage and so the toughness helps me out.

Give me Deadshot armor in WvW. See how you like it.

saerni.2584:

I’d like to briefly point out that cleanse throws a nasty variable into this discussion.

Without cleanse a soldiers vs Dire battle will result in Dire winning hands down. A soldiers build with a lot of cleanse will beat the Dire.

Further, build matters a lot. Even if a build uses a lot of cleanse that doesn’t make it a good build (it still needs to enhance damage through trait synergy with the skills). All these complaints about necro keep mentioning power damage reduction traits. Maybe that’s your issue and not Dire? Blaming it on the armor is hardly fair.

I feel most of the complaints about Dire boil down to complaints about cleanse, class vs class balance, and the classic problem that some builds/players are simply better than others. It’s an illusion that everything is easier when you take out stat combinations. It’s actually harder because now all the condition builds that were using Dire swap to even higher DPS builds and suddenly everything gets “worse” because “condi builds are hitting harder than ever.”

I use Deadshot in pvp. It is more effective in small scale than Dire would be (at same amount of available stats). Even if Dire were offered I would take the Deadshot option. I take Dire in WvW so I can roam and survive being jumped by 3-5 people. Cleanse, toughness, damage reduction traits and mobility are what save me. Dire is just a factor I use because the meta remains power damage and so the toughness helps me out.

Give me Deadshot armor in WvW. See how you like it.

Power builds have to make choices and sacrifice stuff to play against condi but for condi builds it doesnt matter they can use the stats they only need and then overload with defensive stats an be cool. For our dire and deadshot comparison, dire was in pvp it was added and in like less than a day or 2 it was removed due to player complaints. Do you think changing these stats in wvw would hurt anyone? Yes it would but condi builds just abuse survivability because they dont need anything else. Just changing the stats wont hurt anyone it will just make thee game more enjoyable. It is also easier than rebalancing condis as a reason they are broken to begin with are these stat sets.

saerni.2584:

I’d like to briefly point out that cleanse throws a nasty variable into this discussion.

Without cleanse a soldiers vs Dire battle will result in Dire winning hands down. A soldiers build with a lot of cleanse will beat the Dire.

Further, build matters a lot. Even if a build uses a lot of cleanse that doesn’t make it a good build (it still needs to enhance damage through trait synergy with the skills). All these complaints about necro keep mentioning power damage reduction traits. Maybe that’s your issue and not Dire? Blaming it on the armor is hardly fair.

I feel most of the complaints about Dire boil down to complaints about cleanse, class vs class balance, and the classic problem that some builds/players are simply better than others. It’s an illusion that everything is easier when you take out stat combinations. It’s actually harder because now all the condition builds that were using Dire swap to even higher DPS builds and suddenly everything gets “worse” because “condi builds are hitting harder than ever.”

I use Deadshot in pvp. It is more effective in small scale than Dire would be (at same amount of available stats). Even if Dire were offered I would take the Deadshot option. I take Dire in WvW so I can roam and survive being jumped by 3-5 people. Cleanse, toughness, damage reduction traits and mobility are what save me. Dire is just a factor I use because the meta remains power damage and so the toughness helps me out.

Give me Deadshot armor in WvW. See how you like it.

Really? You really think soldier’s stats would defeat a dire stat just because of cleanses? Barely any crit, no extra crit damage – which is pathetic vs today’s sustain, not to mention the toughness + hp pool of a dire wearer.

In a soldier’s vs. dire fight, on pretty much any condi spec could stand still while fighting and still win, there are no cleanses that can out-cleanse condi application for a sustained period of time. (arguably not thief, due to 1 type of condi being the only one truly spammable)

Cleanses have a MUCH higher cooldown than condi application.

Technically a soldiers build wouldn’t need the toughness. It would be more apt to put power, vitality, precision or power, vitality, ferocity (depending on the builds).

Still the problem relates to cleanse. Toughness, I would argue, is much less important to whether a person can survive power damage than cleanse is to whether a person can survive conditions.

I can build with a lot of toughness and still take a lot of damage. It’s only when you add in high damage reduction builds (specialization choices and some weapon/utility choices) that overall sustain against power damage is an issue. Why ask to take away someone’s armor when the real problem is perma protection and -% damage traits?

In the case of defense against condi it isn’t the armor that is preventing you from having cleanse. It’s the balance of cleanse and application. People complain they die to conditions too quickly given only one stat is involved and blame the armor when they should be asking for nerfs to cleanse and application to bring down condition based DPS in the context of one primary damage stat.

Taking away armor stats is a stupid suggestion. It won’t happen in a game based around earning rewards. Balancing suggestions are what people need to be making. This whining about a stat set is not productive to improving balance.

saerni.2584:

Technically a soldiers build wouldn’t need the toughness. It would be more apt to put power, vitality, precision or power, vitality, ferocity (depending on the builds).

Still the problem relates to cleanse. Toughness, I would argue, is much less important to whether a person can survive power damage than cleanse is to whether a person can survive conditions.

I can build with a lot of toughness and still take a lot of damage. It’s only when you add in high damage reduction builds (specialization choices and some weapon/utility choices) that overall sustain against power damage is an issue. Why ask to take away someone’s armor when the real problem is perma protection and -% damage traits?

In the case of defense against condi it isn’t the armor that is preventing you from having cleanse. It’s the balance of cleanse and application. People complain they die to conditions too quickly given only one stat is involved and blame the armor when they should be asking for nerfs to cleanse and application to bring down condition based DPS in the context of one primary damage stat.

Taking away armor stats is a stupid suggestion. It won’t happen in a game based around earning rewards. Balancing suggestions are what people need to be making. This whining about a stat set is not productive to improving balance.

In an ideal GW2, sure.

This is not ideal, and whether you see it or not does not change the fact that armor stats are part of the balance. And since we are not seeing any balance relating to the condi application rate, damage, or potency of cleanses – we now look towards balancing the armor instead so there is more counterplay – I.E. being able to kill those players at the same rate as players who require 3 stats to dish out similar damage.

Fat Disgrace.4275:

So last night I hit another warrior (full beserker stat like me) for 10k evis (core warrior with might stacks)

I then hit a dire/tb reaper for 5k evis. No weakness on me as bersker stance was up and the 5k was a crit, infact I hot him twice and both were 5k. Now the only dmg reduction they get is while be in shroud or from spectral skills if I remember correctly.

So yeah ofc dire/tb are not an issue.

You remember not correctly. The direct damage reduction is a base mechanic. As a power reaper you desperately need this mechanic.

But a 3k armor + rise! + protection dire/tb reaper in shroud laughs about every direct damage you throw at him. And we don’t even speak about his constant weakness application. Most of these reapers I run into don’t even mind to dodge hardhitters like gravedigger as they cost them 10 to 20% hp – laughable. They are doing better in just continuing stacking tons of bleeds, poison and cover conditions. Lowest skillfloor possible and the skillcap is almost immortality in smallscale.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death_Shroud

“While in Death Shroud, direct damage is halved, except when the hit depletes all of the life force. This damage reduction isn’t shown in the combat log.”

But to be fair in WvW I have also met a few direct damage warriors with similar tankiness. My full marauder gravedigger deals 4k damage on them, their evis deals 10k on me. We have a similar healhpool. Couldn’t ever beat one of these even with perfectly timed F1 dodges to prevent their absurd regeneration. The game mode is so full of cheese, it’s ridiculous…

KrHome.1920:

Fat Disgrace.4275:

So last night I hit another warrior (full beserker stat like me) for 10k evis (core warrior with might stacks)

I then hit a dire/tb reaper for 5k evis. No weakness on me as bersker stance was up and the 5k was a crit, infact I hot him twice and both were 5k. Now the only dmg reduction they get is while be in shroud or from spectral skills if I remember correctly.

So yeah ofc dire/tb are not an issue.

You remember not correctly. The direct damage reduction is a base mechanic. As a power reaper you desperately need this mechanic.

But a 3k armor + rise! + protection dire/tb reaper in shroud laughs about every direct damage you throw at him. And we don’t even speak about his constant weakness application. Most of these reapers I run into don’t even mind to dodge hardhitters like gravedigger as they cost them 10 to 20% hp – laughable.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death_Shroud

“While in Death Shroud, direct damage is halved, except when the hit depletes all of the life force. This damage reduction isn’t shown in the combat log.”

But to be fair in WvW I also have met a few direct damage warriors with similar tankiness. My full marauder gravedigger deals 4k damage on them, their evis deals 10k on me. We have a similar healhpool. Couldn’t ever beat one of these even with perfectly timed dodges. The game mode is so full of cheese, it’s ridiculous…

^So much this. 3k armor doesn’t really mean much anymore, it’s all the damage reduction traits, passives, etc. that provide the real tankiness now, and there are plenty of power builds that can abuse the hell out of that tankiness while still dishing out a kitten ton of damage.

KrHome.1920:

Fat Disgrace.4275:

So last night I hit another warrior (full beserker stat like me) for 10k evis (core warrior with might stacks)

I then hit a dire/tb reaper for 5k evis. No weakness on me as bersker stance was up and the 5k was a crit, infact I hot him twice and both were 5k. Now the only dmg reduction they get is while be in shroud or from spectral skills if I remember correctly.

So yeah ofc dire/tb are not an issue.

You remember not correctly. The direct damage reduction is a base mechanic. As a power reaper you desperately need this mechanic.

But a 3k armor + rise! + protection dire/tb reaper in shroud laughs about every direct damage you throw at him. And we don’t even speak about his constant weakness application. Most of these reapers I run into don’t even mind to dodge hardhitters like gravedigger as they cost them 10 to 20% hp – laughable. They are doing better in just continuing stacking tons of bleeds, poison and cover conditions. Lowest skillfloor possible and the skillcap is almost immortality in smallscale.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death_Shroud

“While in Death Shroud, direct damage is halved, except when the hit depletes all of the life force. This damage reduction isn’t shown in the combat log.”

But to be fair in WvW I have also met a few direct damage warriors with similar tankiness. My full marauder gravedigger deals 4k damage on them, their evis deals 10k on me. We have a similar healhpool. Couldn’t ever beat one of these even with perfectly timed F1 dodges to prevent their absurd regeneration. The game mode is so full of cheese, it’s ridiculous…

He did say about the DS reducing damage, bolded it for you. As for warriors, if it’s a berserker a lot run rousing resilience which adds 1000 toughness and heals for 2.5k which with outrage and headbutt amounts to a lot of damage reduction and sustain. They’re much weaker against condition builds as no cleanse on burst skill but they will usually run from those fights once berserker stance has been used.

DeceiverX.8361:

babazhook.6805:

Crinn.7864:

SkyShroud.2865:

Turk.5460:

SkyShroud.2865:

Dire isn’t strong, tb is.

My condi necro in all exotic dire gear begs to differ. I literally smash buttons on cooldown and win fights that I clearly should not be winning.

That has nothing to do with dire. Dire exist since 4 years ago, it is the boost to conditions through the balance that makes you win easily, absolutely nothing to do with dire. Then again, even before hot, a necro could melt people easily with condition on roaming but it was nerfed after that.

It has everything to do with Dire/TB. In WvW condi builds are the tankiest offensive builds available. In sPvP condi builds are squishier than their power counter parts for every class except Mesmer. Why is there such a difference between the modes? Hint: gear stats.

As pointed out your post a contradiction. Dire armor does little to create a tanky build against another condition build. The more condition builds there are the less tanky the build becomes in relative terms.

What COUNTERS condition builds is not toughness or adding toughness. If you want to counter a condition build you trait cleanse , vitality and healing from a defensive perspective, or try and pump out more damage over a shorter period of time.

That said If a person does sacrifice toughness so as to battle a DIRE user with those other stats , then he in turn becomes more vulnerable to power builds.

A necro condition build in carrion facing a Necro condition build in Dire is just as tanky given the added toughness the Necro in dire has does little to protect against condition damage. There certainly less raw damage taken due to that dire but that more then made up for by the added power of the necro in Carrion. There no practical reason in such a fight that Necro in Dire should outlast the one in carrion.

You do know that Dire has secondary stat vitality and that the only harder counter to such a build would be a nomad’s full-tank, right?

You do also know that vitality counters power damage efficacy, right?

You do realize your entire argument here is based on condi vs condi, while Dire is the hardest-countering set to power builds out there due to its damage:EHP ratio, right?

The argument for comparison would be more consistent for Carrion vs Valkyrie, not Dire.

And there is very good reason to suspect that Dire would outlast carrion in a fight; Dire ticks for more damage from utility consumables which scale both toughness and vitality into condition damage, and the power component of carrion would be substantially negated into rough equality hit-for-hit due to carrion’s lack of toughness not inhibiting the damage of no-power dire.

Which of course, depending on the profession, gets even more favorable for dire the more might which is stacked, given how %-wise, the efficiency favors higher toughness to higher base power.

Mathematically, Dire is and has been a problematic stat distribution since its inception. The only thing holding it back was the lower damage/burst throughput of condition builds early on. Even still, stat-for-stat, it’s always had the best efficiency in every way compared to other options, TB aside (although even some will argue Dire is still better than TB due to its higher tick damage and base HP).

But gears were initially balance in that manner, having comparable total stats points then further balancing it via skills / traits balancing. Yet, hot bought in a lot of new variables and this literally bring balancing to a whole new level of difficulties. Basically, anet dug their own grave.

Why not just nerf these op builds? It’s not hard to figure out what makes some build op. My trailblazer reapper can’t do kitten if i can’t land reapper shroud 5 and 4 skills. It’s like only way to make some dmg.

Junkpile.7439:

Why not just nerf these op builds? It’s not hard to figure out what makes some build op. My trailblazer reapper can’t do kitten if i can’t land reapper shroud 5 and 4 skills. It’s like only way to make some dmg.

A 2, 3, 4, 5 Staff Mark spam alone stacks 11 bleeds
Reaper Rune + Suffer! = 6 Bleeds (9 Bleeds if Chilling Nova triggers)
CTTB! = 3 Bleeds
Geomancy + Hydromancy Proc = 6 Bleeds
Grasping Darkness = 3 Bleeds
Nightfall + Trait = 3 to 6 Bleeds
[…]

The combo is important in sPvP. In WvW it’s not.It’s very easy to bait cleanses with the skills mentioned above as they have enough pressure to kill most classes and then set up the 5+4 combo to wreck face.

apharma.3741:

He did say about the DS reducing damage

Thanks, I read someting like “only from spectal skills in shroud”. My bad!