Guild Wars 2

Hello, below is a list of topics as to why servers tend to shy away from the PPT play style and more into a Zerg/Blob/K-Train style. Feel free to add your own thoughts or comment on mine below. For a tl;dr just read the bold sections, the bullets below them explain on the point more:

Often coverage determines the winner of a match

• Unfortunately WvW is a coverage game and I think this hurts it the most. Even if when I’m on and I lead my server to hold the highest PPT for a few hours that easily get’s negated if later in the day or week my server doesn’t have people to even compete for PPT. This is a simple problem with no real good solution or I think Arena Net would be implementing it. They are always looking for ways to fix this problem.
• Maybe a solution would be to split up the server into different ‘time zones’ and each has it’s own points, population, and ladder rank. However, this would only divide servers more and make WvW ladders look super confusing.

No real reward or triumph from winning a match

• The rank system makes it so that it takes a long time to move any reasonable distance in the ladder. I’m not against this system but when you win you don’t feel immediately rewarded in this aspect
• Just getting 3 bonus chests isn’t a big reward. I think the main reason for this is because it is so easy to obtain. Maybe the reward should scale better based on how much you helped your server to win. Many players often spend 3+ hours a day each day of the week only to get rewarded with 3 bonus chests
• Other than sitting at the top of a leader-board on a website there is no real benefit to being one of the best servers. Adding something would not help the bandwagon to the top servers problem (which is now not possible with the new population out).

Active rewards while are to basic

• This is what is the easiest to change and I think would have the biggest impact to the enjoyment of WvW
• Rewards for taking objectives should be based on how many players took the objective, and how long the other server has held the objective. The more players that participate in taking a objective the less of a reward it should be down to a minimum. Rewards need to be based on difficulty. The longer a server holds and objective or the higher tier it has reached the more the reward should be. Again reward should be based on difficulty. You can even use this to remove the RI buff from objectives by making there be little or even no reward for flipping a camp before 5 min have passed. However that should only be the case if RI is to prevent people constantly flipping it for rewards.
• There is a lack of reward/game-play for scouting the enemy servers yet it’s is important for earning high PPT. Maybe add some telescope upgrade to towers/keeps that give the ability to see players farther away and ‘mark’ them. Player gets reward based on marking players and rewards can only be earned so quick so there is no exploiting. Marked players would show briefly on the map similar to how EotM works. Add a flare item(similar to how the traps work they need supply) that will mark enemies and give rewards for marking them, more for out of objective scouting.
• Tweak defending events and how you get credit for them. It seems silly to me if I’m defending a tower and I kill an attacking teams siege that I don’t get credit for defending. The only way to get credit currently is kills and repairing. A lot more goes into defending objectives and one of the most important killing siege isn’t rewarded. This makes defending fairly undesirable because if you bring people to kill of the attackers they run before they die so no credit unless you repair. Using supply to repair is normally not wanted because it’s a waste unless it stalls the other server out so your team can arrive and defend or the siege has been cleared and the tower defended already.
• Besieging an objective will only give you rewards if your server takes the objective. This one isn’t to bad because normally you server takes an objective when you have been attacking it for a while. However a crucial part of taking a larger more fortified keep requires several attacks to weaken the keep and drain it’s supply. This can take a long time and often you might have to log before your team takes it. You should get rewarded for knocking down walls and doors a bit more than the little bit of WXP.

Supply is important

• This is an intended feature but it only enhances the large group style because more players equals more supply. The more supply the more you can do to attack, defend, or fight other groups with. There are a few mechanics to try and make this not so bad such has supply camps only having 100 on flip, supply drain traps, and trebuchet cows removing supply. Maybe add a few more features to help this out like supply can only be taken so fast from objectives (100 supply per min)
• Larger groups with more supply can place more siege down to take objectives quicker allowing for more rewards quicker. There is a siege cap in place however it could be refined a bit more. The siege disruption devices were a big help to this problem but it still doesn’t prevent 5 guild catapults spread out taking down a wall. This might be a bit tricky to change but maybe make the siege placement checks a bit different. Make them look of siege of the same type and cap that lower with a larger range on the check. Make different caps per siege like 1 for ram, 2 catapults, 3 trebuchets, 4 arrowcarts and make the range the size of a tower. This will also help limit spam of arrowcarts on defense to a reasonable number. Unfortunately people can miss use this to place siege in bad locations blocking good ones, maybe cap is much higher inside objectives for defending teams.
• If siege get’s destroyed larger groups can simply rebuild with the large amounts of supply. To fix this maybe make it so that destroyed siege stay put for a few min and still blocks new siege (if at siege cap) from being placed. This problem isn’t to bad because normally if you found a way to destroy it the first time you have means to destroy any new siege placed.
• Repairing objectives is a quick process for a large group as they can fix everything without any supply running needed. This makes it harder for smaller groups to defend a tower from multiple waves of attack. Maybe limit how quick a wall can be repaired to 5 repairs a minute. Also make towers that don’t need anymore upgrades use supply to repair automatically if supply is above a threshold (or not using supply with the changes to upgrades).

Thanks for taking the time to read my ideas and good luck on the battlefield.

AHH – they do in T1 – infact the blobs are mostly about PPT and K-Training. So your points have no meaning.

PPT and K-Training are different. K-Training is about flipping as many objectives as possible. PPT is about Holding as many objectives as possible and bigger point objectives are better. T1 Servers K-Train and will just flip as many objectives as possible in turn they ‘hold’ lots of objectives so their PPT is high. Many higher tier objectives are lost because the K-Train doesn’t defend because they are busy attacking some other objective on the other side of the map. Also they can just come K-Train flip it easy after the attackers are gone. If a server were to play for PPT they could group up to stop a zerg from K-Training them. Most K-Trains move on if they run into opposition looking for easier flips really depends on the guild running it. Once they leave your stuff alone you can split up and attack theirs half the time they don’ t defend unless it’s a upgraded objective.

I play in T1 NA and have taken many towers with a small 5 man group with enemy blobs on the map. These normally only get retaken after then finish K-Training where they were on the map losing the points for a few ticks.

WvW gameplay got bored, people spended to much time and effort organizing their guild and server, they werent rewarded at that, cause effort will be reseted, bandwagons, hacks, coverage problems, and BEING PPT the reward in WvW, makes a castles the PvD prize/trophy, theres not point also on holding a tower besides the ppt tick.

Anything besides the fights was worthless in WvW……it should be fancy and have a good objective for a guild/alliance to hold it and defend it and not playing for a ppt that means nothing.

The problem with WvW is being designed for casual players that barelly log on the game…

Aeolus.3615:

they werent rewarded at that

That is my point in this post. I’m pointing out the reasons that people play the way the do, and possible fixes to the ‘problem’ if it is even a problem. I’m not saying people should go about not K-Training just the reasons for it happening since there is a large portion of the Guild Wars 2 community and Arena Net themselves that don’t like this style. It being a problem is subjective .

PPT playstyle can be boring. That’s the biggest reason. Sometimes the most PPT-efficient strategy requires avoiding fights or ktraining. It’s BORING!

Chaba.5410:

PPT playstyle can be boring. That’s the biggest reason. Sometimes the most PPT-efficient strategy requires avoiding fights or ktraining. It’s BORING!

I actually find defending objective quite fun and interesting. I play a ranger and often sit on the walls finding someone that oversteps just a bit so I can burst them to down state. If I’m luck then I get the kill on them if not I might have still knocked stacks off them. After a while of this their numbers dwindle and eventually our group can push out and have a good fight. This is more subjective so it will depend form player to play.

However I don’t think boring is everything. Look at how many players go to Silverwastes and farm gold all day. That is boring to me and I feel it is to most of them as well however they feel they are getting rewarded for it so they do it anyhow.

Yes if you play for PPT and other servers don’t it feels just like normal K-Train except you keep a closer eye on what you control and defend smaller objectives. I think the main reason this is the case is because other servers are not playing for PPT either. So you don’t get the fun (in my opinion) times of attacking a tower while it is getting defended.

Right now playing for PPT is boring and unrewarding and that’s why people chose the slightly more rewarding K-Train zerging. It’s is about as boring but at least you are earning rewards.

Also when running with a 5 man group it can be fun trying to take objectives while a much larger group is around. Got to play sneaky and keep eyes out in all directions.

Pink Ninja Man.4375:

Chaba.5410:

PPT playstyle can be boring. That’s the biggest reason. Sometimes the most PPT-efficient strategy requires avoiding fights or ktraining. It’s BORING!

I actually find defending objective quite fun and interesting. I play a ranger and often sit on the walls finding someone that oversteps just a bit so I can burst them to down state. If I’m luck then I get the kill on them if not I might have still knocked stacks off them. After a while of this their numbers dwindle and eventually our group can push out and have a good fight. This is more subjective so it will depend form player to play.

You are a ranger, you are about the only class that have the range to hit things outside the walls. Most other classes get insta pulled or gibbed by ground marks because they lack the range to do much of anything unless they stand right on top of attackers and poke their heads out like target dummies. Rangers can stand to the side and safely pluck away.

I agree with the person you quoted, ppt/pvdoor is just boring. Defending at its current form is boring for most classes. Defending is also whacked because of zoom hacks with ac’s that can destroy everything inside, and you can’t even mount a last stand in lords room without standing in ac fire.

Bottom line is people don’t ppt because it’s boring. But even T1 servers have turned into ppt fest because people fear of dropping out of T1. It’s ridiculous watching a zerg of 30+ run away from fights just so they can ppt more.

gavyne.6847:

You are a ranger, you are about the only class that have the range to hit things outside the walls. Most other classes get insta pulled or gibbed by ground marks because they lack the range to do much of anything unless they stand right on top of attackers and poke their heads out like target dummies. Rangers can stand to the side and safely pluck away.

I agree with the person you quoted, ppt/pvdoor is just boring. Defending at its current form is boring for most classes. Defending is also whacked because of zoom hacks with ac’s that can destroy everything inside, and you can’t even mount a last stand in lords room without standing in ac fire.

Bottom line is people don’t ppt because it’s boring. But even T1 servers have turned into ppt fest because people fear of dropping out of T1. It’s ridiculous watching a zerg of 30+ run away from fights just so they can ppt more.

Any class can hop on an arrowcart and defend. Yes the arrowcarts are not in a good place but that is a different discussion. Also non-ranged classes tend to be stronger so they can leave the tower (depending on attacking force) and harass the siege and bring it down. Nobody defends because the rewards are little and don’t count killing siege.

Also T1 server’s aren’t a PPT fest. The are K-Train fests. If they were PPT fests then how come servers don’t respond to me taking a paper keep in their home bl with a small group (10ish) with one golem (alpha) and 1 ram on each door. We got scouted and a few from the map tried to stop us but didn’t bring us down. After we took the keep we held it for an hour at least before a K-Train finally showed up to take it back. What took them so long? They though they would get more PPT by taking 2 towers in EBG then defending a keep? I’m not sure why people think T1 plays for PPT when they don’t. I join JQ public Teamspeak form time to time and never to they seem to have a concern as to how our PPT compares to other servers. Depending on the guild running the Zerg they are either looking for fights (fun) or just running through as many paper objectives as they can before porting to another map and repeating.

Pink Ninja Man.4375:

Chaba.5410:

PPT playstyle can be boring. That’s the biggest reason. Sometimes the most PPT-efficient strategy requires avoiding fights or ktraining. It’s BORING!

I actually find defending objective quite fun and interesting. I play a ranger and often sit on the walls finding someone that oversteps just a bit so I can burst them to down state. ….

I’m not talking about as a solo player. I’m talking as a player who leads a guild and frequently tags up to lead militia. If you’re playing PPT and not just ktrain, that role often requires situational awareness of 4-map “politics” and deciding upon the over-all strategy to maximize your PPT depending upon what forces the other servers have out and how they are playing. Sometimes strategy dictates that you avoid fights because if you get tied up in a long fight you could end up losing objectives you’re trying to hold onto.

Chaba.5410:

I’m not talking about as a solo player. I’m talking as a player who leads a guild and frequently tags up to lead militia. If you’re playing PPT and not just ktrain, that role often requires situational awareness of 4-map “politics” and deciding upon the over-all strategy to maximize your PPT depending upon what forces the other servers have out and how they are playing. Sometimes strategy dictates that you avoid fights because if you get tied up in a long fight you could end up losing objectives you’re trying to hold onto.

Agreed you have to pick and choose fights. Also you need to split up some times to take multiple objectives quicker. Example you main force is headed to a tower and needs supply so you send two groups(5 – 10) out to capture nearby camps. A larger group can still use the same tactics to defend as I mentioned, weaken them until you can take them. You can defend objectives against larger groups and you have to keep in mind that you are occupying a large amount of their force defending. If you have same numbers send a group of 10 or so to go capture another one of their objectives while you hold them off. If they leave communicate that to your other team so they can fall back and regroup. Does your guild or server do these tactics often or do you just try to get as much PPT but not in the most optimal way? If they do what server do you play on, and/or what guild?

Pink Ninja Man.4375:

Also T1 server’s aren’t a PPT fest. The are K-Train fests. If they were PPT fests then how come servers don’t respond to me taking a paper keep in their home bl with a small group (10ish) with one golem (alpha) and 1 ram on each door. We got scouted and a few from the map tried to stop us but didn’t bring us down. After we took the keep we held it for an hour at least before a K-Train finally showed up to take it back. What took them so long? They though they would get more PPT by taking 2 towers in EBG then defending a keep? I’m not sure why people think T1 plays for PPT when they don’t. I join JQ public Teamspeak form time to time and never to they seem to have a concern as to how our PPT compares to other servers. Depending on the guild running the Zerg they are either looking for fights (fun) or just running through as many paper objectives as they can before porting to another map and repeating.

I can tell you it’s ppt, as all 3 servers in T1 right now are ppt’ing hard to avoid dropping to T2. As for your calls unanswered, a lot depends on the timezone, and often it has to do with the current pin being preoccupied. If it’s during NA, NA has a lot of smaller guilds, many prefer to fight than pvd.

Anyways, if you know JQ, none of the guilds on JQ likes to ktrain or play the ppt/backcapping game. But right now with BG pushing hard 2 weeks in a row now, everybody’s forced into this boring ppt-fest. Most guilds would prefer to fight, but you can’t fight if you are either 1) outblobbed, or 2) opponents waypoint to empty maps to pvd whenever you show up.

If you don’t understand map politics, I suggest you talking to the commanders. Also if you aren’t on ts, you’re simply not understanding what’s going on elsewhere. Don’t just assume, join ts so you know what they’re doing. Rather than assume people aren’t helping you because of this and that.

T1 Servers are fairly far away from dropping out of T1 so nobody is PPTing to avoid that. For and example of what I mean by playing for PPT look at the last Borderland Stress Test. Two servers opted for Zerging/Blobing/K-Train style and one played for PPT by splitting up and taking objectives and only defending if possible with numbers and to stall out long enuf for a tick. Yes the Zergin/Blobling/K-Train servers had a lead at points and had high PPT for parts, but at the end of the day the server going for PPT and not Zerging won. What T1 servers are doing is not playing for PPT, and if it is they then are not good at it. I don’t think with how WvW works currently that playing for PPT should happen. As people have said they find it boring and it is unrewarding in comparison to K-Train. The WvW T1 K-Train isn’t as bad as EotM but it’s definitely not PPT focused gameplay. I do understand a lot of guilds in T1 love to fight and will often map hop untill they find fights.

gavyne.6847:

Pink Ninja Man.4375:

Also T1 server’s aren’t a PPT fest. The are K-Train fests. If they were PPT fests then how come servers don’t respond to me taking a paper keep in their home bl with a small group (10ish) with one golem (alpha) and 1 ram on each door. We got scouted and a few from the map tried to stop us but didn’t bring us down. After we took the keep we held it for an hour at least before a K-Train finally showed up to take it back. What took them so long? They though they would get more PPT by taking 2 towers in EBG then defending a keep? I’m not sure why people think T1 plays for PPT when they don’t. I join JQ public Teamspeak form time to time and never to they seem to have a concern as to how our PPT compares to other servers. Depending on the guild running the Zerg they are either looking for fights (fun) or just running through as many paper objectives as they can before porting to another map and repeating.

I can tell you it’s ppt, as all 3 servers in T1 right now are ppt’ing hard to avoid dropping to T2. As for your calls unanswered, a lot depends on the timezone, and often it has to do with the current pin being preoccupied. If it’s during NA, NA has a lot of smaller guilds, many prefer to fight than pvd.

Anyways, if you know JQ, none of the guilds on JQ likes to ktrain or play the ppt/backcapping game. But right now with BG pushing hard 2 weeks in a row now, everybody’s forced into this boring ppt-fest. Most guilds would prefer to fight, but you can’t fight if you are either 1) outblobbed, or 2) opponents waypoint to empty maps to pvd whenever you show up.

If you don’t understand map politics, I suggest you talking to the commanders. Also if you aren’t on ts, you’re simply not understanding what’s going on elsewhere. Don’t just assume, join ts so you know what they’re doing. Rather than assume people aren’t helping you because of this and that.

lol JQ doesn’t like to PPT or Ktrain, suuuure.

Pink Ninja Man.4375:

T1 Servers are fairly far away from dropping out of T1 so nobody is PPTing to avoid that.

As a regular commander on a NA T1 server, I want to suggest that you learn to speak for yourself, and stop implying you speak for everyone to add false weight to your opinion.

From my perspective, T1 servers appear to me to make a conscious effort to maintain the highest PPT they can. Unlike you though, I am speaking from my perspective and what I see and hear of those in my circles.

I do not see intentional K training from where I stand. It appears to me that this generally happens late at night when there are not enough on to put 4 maps of coverage out. Generally when I cam commanding, I try to focus on holding hills and bay where I can. I Make an effort to pressure the enemies bay and hills, and occasionally garrison. The only K training that might occur is the occasional flipping of camps and the lesser keeps on the way part to accomplish the aspects of my previously stated goal. If you and yours are karma training, that is on you, but you shouldn’t claim to speak for me, and then suggest my goals are the same as yours.

coglin.1867:

It appears to me that this generally happens late at night when there are not enough on to put 4 maps of coverage out.

I would say that most of the time there is not coverage for 4 maps, on JQ at least maybe that is why it seems to me it’s happening often. I understand that there are guilds and groups that sill play for PPT but a majority jump on the Zerg and just follow from one objective to another.

Updated topic title to Why Zerging is the Meta as its represents this discussion better I believe. I was more trying to discuss why people don’t split up more for capturing objectives where it’s clear that you will get objectives faster split earning more PPT. Also why small groups aren’t sent back to defend objectives often, it’s either send the whole zerg (only done if they have run out of paper to flip or if it’s a major objective like WP keep). I’m not saying that 100% of the population plays this way just that a majority do especially unorganized groups.

Zerging is optimal because of the 5 player cap on damage, buffs / shout cleansing effecting non-party members, and commander tags saying “follow my condom around the map.”

• Remove the 5 player cap on damage. This cap was in place because of performance. Well, fix your performance problems because this ruins your game.
• Buffs you provide now only affect allies in your Party (not Raid, just Party).
• Commander tags are invisible unless you have joined that commanders Raid. Oh man, people will actually have to talk to each other and be part of the community in order to know where to go.

Encourage Defending:

• Players in guilds of sponsored keeps now get messages stating how many enemies were in the area when one of their guards dies. This (1) encourages a response force (2) encourages communication between guilds (3) gives a real sense of ownership when sponsoring an objective.
• Arrowcarts, like cannons, can now only be built at specified locations in the game (eg on keep walls in designated spots by the faction of the keep owner).
• Players in designated areas on keep/tower walls gain 25% bonus damage with player skills (not siege).
• Increase the strength of keep/tower lords drastically. It should take 5 players a longer amount of time to kill a tower lord (more than 1 minute: Think something like siegerazer). It should take 10 players more than 2 minutes to kill a keep lord.
• Increase the variety of tower guards. Healers, defensive spell casters, guardians, thieves, mesmers, engineers. Ranger guards should have their own pets.
• Adjust keep lord “rooms” so that they have real LoS barriers and choke points. Hills Lord’s room = Smart design. Garrison / Bay Lord’s Room = Bad design.
• Adjust pathing of keep lords and their court members to not flee the Lord’s Room, Bosses reset if pulled outside of their area.

@Raven, do you think attacking teams should still be able to place arrowcarts with the defenders only having specific spots?

Yea I think the tower lords need some help, luckily with the new map from what I saw they were more unique and stronger.

Pink Ninja Man.4375:

@Raven, do you think attacking teams should still be able to place arrowcarts with the defenders only having specific spots?

Yea I think the tower lords need some help, luckily with the new map from what I saw they were more unique and stronger.

attackers wouldnt have access to arrow carts. they wouldnt be field siege. they’d just be a different type of cannon.

Zerging is the current meta mostly because it’s all around the most effective way to do things in the current wvw.

-More people means more supply so you can build more siege to take things more quickly. Taking things more quickly means less chance of a defense.

-Safety in numbers. Having numbers means it will take numbers to wipe your group.

-It’s generally more fun and profitable to zerg than it is to sit in a keep waiting for someone to attack.