Guild Wars 2

It has been a year and yet the notion of using a trebuchet to blast your OWN tower/keep gates to defend isn’t removed yet? At the very least, trebuchet should damage your own gates/walls while destroying rams/golems.

Anyone else agree with me?

PS: If that cannot be done because of griefing, trebuchet should not be able to damage through the door.

Being able to damage your own side should never be implemented for obvious trolling reasons.

And if they remove trebs damaging through doors, they better removed AoE attacks hitting through them too.

Why even have gates. Just let the zergs run straight in. No need to even flip camps for supply.

If you can’t set up defensive trebs, then you must remove the ability to AoE damage the tops of walls, otherwise, there’s no way to defend structures at all.

Rev I don’t believe he’s asking why you should be able to use them as defense. Just why you are able to do things like put it directly behind a gate so that the aoe hits the rams/golems directly on the other side.

Aberrant.6749:

Rev I don’t believe he’s asking why you should be able to use them as defense. Just why you are able to do things like put it directly behind a gate so that the aoe hits the rams/golems directly on the other side.

Rev’s point is, without trebs, how do you propose people defend against a gate assault? For the defenders, the assaulters have the advantage aoe’ing up to walls, and even aoe’ing the gate to stop repair efforts.

Aberrant.6749:

Rev I don’t believe he’s asking why you should be able to use them as defense. Just why you are able to do things like put it directly behind a gate so that the aoe hits the rams/golems directly on the other side.

Then by the same token, ACs and catapults shouldn’t be able to hit through the door too. Neither should people be able to attack through the door. You therefore need to balance it by allowing people to stand on top of the wall to damage your enemy without dying instantly due to ranged AoE damage.

Let’s keep em the way they are please. Trebs places behind gates are an excellent defence, if not the best. One of the only ways to counter blobs or golem rushing.

Clearly defensive siege is OP in this game… yeah no. Treb is about the only thing that can slow a zerg down since it sucks supplies. It is being used as intended. Might not make much RL sense but this is a game.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-March-26-2013/1700276

“Catapult damage no longer affects rams through gates.”

Not sure if treb was nerf along with it but for some reason this change had been reverted. Catas and trebs are able to damage through gates now. I think letting siege hit through the gate is good though because offense had already been buffed too much by the introduction of ram mastery.

2 ac can deal the same amount of damage as a treb and cost 60% the supplies to build so I hardly think a treb behind gate is op.

This is funny, you are the same guys that made two threads about how arrow carts should be nerfed

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/wuv/wuv/I-m-getting-sick-of-this-nonsense/first#post2870463

You dont like defense play, do you XD.

But yeah on topic, trebs behind gate is a very powerful defensive siege but its not broken as it can be countered. So my answer is no, leave the defenders some power.

Cymric.7368:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-March-26-2013/1700276

“Catapult damage no longer affects rams through gates.”

Not sure if treb was nerf along with it but for some reason this change had been reverted. Catas and trebs are able to damage through gates now. I think letting siege hit through the gate is good though because offense had already been buffed too much by the introduction of ram mastery.

Are you sure about this ? Yesterday there was a catapult hitting us through the wall while we were on rams. I don’t recall getting any damage on us or the rams, but we were however knocked back.

Natronix.9827:

This is funny, you are the same guys that made two threads about how arrow carts should be nerfed

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/wuv/wuv/I-m-getting-sick-of-this-nonsense/first#post2870463

You dont like defense play, do you XD.

But yeah on topic, trebs behind gate is a very powerful defensive siege but its not broken as it can be countered. So my answer is no, leave the defenders some power.

Think this as an example. A dota/lol game lasts for an hour, while WvW can take hours just to cap something (a keep) because there’s “siege defence” consisting of tons of arrow carts and trebuchet defending one point. It is slow and boring. Fast paced battles with lots of areas that can be flipped should be how WvW is.

You can have a waypointed keep for days just because it’s nearly uncappable, and that’s not something that should be accepted. Conquering something makes you feel that you achieve something, but this sort of siege defence is nothing more than cheese. Add to the fact you can use waypoint in keeps every 3 minutes to gain a sudden number of people?

However, in that aspect where defensive sieges are to be nerfed, the time to upgrade walls/doors for should take lesser time. Also, there should be an automatic reduction nerf in damage if you’re using burning oil/cannons. Wall AOE killing defensive players immediately is also not a good thing. Things being reduced to nothing more than golem rushes or 5 super rams on 1 door is completely thanks to this stupid mechanic of having overpowered defence.

Holding a tower against all odds with some smart siege placement and a bit of luck may be one of the most fun things I’ve ever done in a video game. – Devon carver.

There’s no luck and no “smart siege placment”, because it’s actually unhittable defensive arrow carts and 1 super trebuchet placed in difficult to see spots. We all should know that the devs made this defence to solve the population imbalance.

Trebuchet’s cost a lot of supply. A superior trebuchet is almost 4 superior AC’s. I don’t see how it is overpowered or broken for the supply cost. It won’t be able to hit an omega golem firing from 1500 range and it can usually be taken down by a well placed AC too if the treb isn’t manned immediately. Alternatively, they can switch to the wall and if are at the right distance, the treb won’t be able to hit it because it’ll be just out of blast radius from the wall but if the treb shoots over the wall, it goes too far. If there was no defending, then everyone would just run around ramming and it would just be endless repetition with zero strategy because everything is an uncontested capture. I don’t see how that would make the game any more fun. If you go hours without taking anything, you or your group is likely bad. Plus, almost all of the recent updates to siege (especially ram mastery) have made stuff easier to take so I don’t see why someone would feel that it has to be made even easier. More people are asking for more improvements to defense, especially now that one superior ram can ram down a gate in 1 min 38 seconds.

Radian.2478:

Trebuchet’s cost a lot of supply. A superior trebuchet is almost 4 superior AC’s. I don’t see how it is overpowered or broken for the supply cost. It won’t be able to hit an omega golem firing from 1500 range and it can usually be taken down by a well placed AC too if the treb isn’t manned immediately. Alternatively, they can switch to the wall and if are at the right distance, the treb won’t be able to hit it because it’ll be just out of blast radius from the wall but if the treb shoots over the wall, it goes too far. If there was no defending, then everyone would just run around ramming and it would just be endless repetition with zero strategy because everything is an uncontested capture. I don’t see how that would make the game any more fun. If you go hours without taking anything, you or your group is likely bad. Plus, almost all of the recent updates to siege (especially ram mastery) have made stuff easier to take so I don’t see why someone would feel that it has to be made even easier. More people are asking for more improvements to defense, especially now that one superior ram can ram down a gate in 1 min 38 seconds.

You make it sound like golems or omega golems don’t cost the same amount of supplies.

The problem of natural siege defences like oil/mortar/cannons how terrible the mechanics are. You don’t get a chance to use it because the enemy AOE hurts the player enough to down him almost immediately. Instead of having such an issue, the player using the oil/cannon should have an automatic 90% damage reduction (not through WXP). This way it makes SENSE, not build a superior treb and then having it not hurt your own towers.

Burning oil > Super rams/golems. Cannon > Players . Not trebuchets hitting from inside the tower ground. That is silly.

And having more siege defences is a terrible idea. You want better paced combat. If I see more nonsense like additional defenses and requiring 20 omegas to kill that area, I’ll curse the people who voted for the idea. This is unacceptable. Find a way to raise population, not pad it up with horrible mechanics.

If you siege an area in real life, you’re supposed to get more advantages (because the people being sieged can’t go in or out and start to starve.).

A siege occurs when an attacker encounters a city or fortress that cannot be easily taken by a coup de main and refuses to surrender. Sieges involve surrounding the target and blocking the reinforcement or escape of troops or provision of supplies (a tactic known as “investment”²), typically coupled with attempts to reduce the fortifications by means of siege engines, artillery bombardment, mining (also known as sapping), or the use of deception or treachery to bypass defences. Failing a military outcome, sieges can often be decided by starvation, thirst or disease, which can afflict either the attacker or defender.

Next time the new mechanic should be “Diseased”. Each time 20 players from the same server dies in a keep/tower, they will get a new mechanic where they receive a Diseased stack. Players will have to wait 120 seconds outside a keep/tower to completely remove the diseased stack. This will stop players from rushing in blindly with a waypointed keep.

If players die with the Diseased stack and revives, they get a new status called “Fever” which does 50 damage/diseased stack. That way it should reward the attackers (they also get the diseased stack, but the time to run back from the waypoint should take 120 seconds).

A well placed trebuchet can take care of pretty much any siege in any towers. It amazes me how many time a zerg will bash their head against ACs and door trebs instead of just building a treb to destroy all the siege weapons.

For keeps and SM, it’s a bit harder and requires a bit more thinking.

LoneWolfie.1852:

Next time the new mechanic should be “Diseased”. Each time 20 players from the same server dies in a keep/tower, they will get a new mechanic where they receive a Diseased stack….

Yes, far too many people are defending towers and keeps, this needs to be reduced.

I would like to see friendly fire in wvw but then there should be friendly fire on everything, Not just trebuchet.
A better question would be why is pot of oil completely useless and never kill a player except for maybe some level 1 that never played before. What can they do about that maybe more HP on oil and then it should be 50x as much because it get destroyed in
10 seconds max. And it never ever kill any players.

For those complaining about trebs, they should probably get on and man a treb for a couple hours and actually learn how it works.

1. Trebs cannot hit certain angles
2. There are more ways into a tower or keep besides a front gate.
3. If I can get a wall down at garrison solo running supply to a cata, without the benefit of a zerg, and with trebs firing (because I have used trebs and placed my cata in a spot where they couldn’t hit me) .. and actually get the wall down, surely a guild group can do the same?

Cymric.7368:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-March-26-2013/1700276

“Catapult damage no longer affects rams through gates.”

Not sure if treb was nerf along with it but for some reason this change had been reverted. Catas and trebs are able to damage through gates now. I think letting siege hit through the gate is good though because offense had already been buffed too much by the introduction of ram mastery.

2 ac can deal the same amount of damage as a treb and cost 60% the supplies to build so I hardly think a treb behind gate is op.

AC deal puny dmg to rams and easy to destroy by big zerg AOI. It is impossible to compare Treb to AC . Even AC placed inside tower behind the gate is easy to destroy and does almost no DMG to zerg outside. Currently treb is one thing that keep towers from being flip in the same rate as camps. Do you really wonna see every tower change hands every 10-15 min?

RedStar.4218:

Are you sure about this ? Yesterday there was a catapult hitting us through the wall while we were on rams. I don’t recall getting any damage on us or the rams, but we were however knocked back.

I was knock back by a cata behind gate while ramming and thus I assume that damage was indeed dealt. My bad if this isn’t the case. Didn’t really notice since that catapult’s damage is so puny against a ram.

Ptolemy.5086:

Cymric.7368:

I think letting siege hit through the gate is good though because offense had already been buffed too much by the introduction of ram mastery.

2 ac can deal the same amount of damage as a treb and cost 60% the supplies to build so I hardly think a treb behind gate is op.

AC deal puny dmg to rams and easy to destroy by big zerg AOI. It is impossible to compare Treb to AC . Even AC placed inside tower behind the gate is easy to destroy and does almost no DMG to zerg outside. Currently treb is one thing that keep towers from being flip in the same rate as camps. Do you really wonna see every tower change hands every 10-15 min?

Please learn to read. I stated that I do not think a treb behind gate is op and I think offense is too strong right now. If your ac behind the gate is destroyed, you might want to reconsider your ac placement to somewhere out of sight of the gate. An AC deal ~50% of the damage of a treb, hardly puny. I thought that a treb is much stronger too, until I did an actual test. Take a look at the video if you don’t believe me.

Why can I drop a bomb on myself and not get hurt, but healed?
Why can my friends drop meteor showers on my head and I’m ok?
Why can I run through everyone?! The bonds between my digital molecules are weak!!!! AiiiIEEEE!!!!

Makes absolutely no sense whatsoever…

@Chaba: lol, especially at the third one. xD

On-topic: While I don’t really have a problem with the treb defense strategy, I do think ANet could make some minor QoL changes to make it a little easier for players to defend with their own skills.

One of the biggest would be trying to fix the fact that you have to jump up on the little parapet at the very edge of the wall in order to have line of sight to target the ground below. That should not be necessary, and it causes all kinds of problems for defenders. That tiny parapet edge should not block my character’s line of sight to the ground, considering that it’s no higher than her knee.

A second possibility is allowing ground targeting through the arrowslits in the keep walls. Yes, it should have a narrow line-of-sight, but it’s the same concept as was actually done in Medieval times, and would open up defensive possibilities beyond sitting on top of the wall.

Yes Virginia, I love killing mindless zergs with defensive works. Yep I said Mindless. In the history of Man defensive works were made for the few to fight effectively against the many. Conflict involves speed, skill, equipment, and thought. The combination of these factors is called STRATEGY. A great warrior is defined by the number and greatness of his foes. If it was easy Grandma would be in here doing it for us. Change nothing ArenaNet, so that we learn to fight Greatly.

As long as only certain player AoE’s can hit over walls (necro and ele AoEs especially which seem to hit you even if your arrow cart is not in the circle), and as long as players can constantly AoE and AC through gates, the treb is one of the few pieces of defense which you can ACTUALLY count on. Many AC positions can just be AoE spammed down even though it really shouldn’t reach. Since you realistically cannot repair while the enemy is attacking because the AoE, defensive trebs are really the only piece of siege you can place which is actually difficult for the enemy to just spam away.

Get rid of defensive trebs, and you’ll have to get rid of all the other offensive nonsense (AoE’ing over walls, AC’s over walls, etc). The very fact walls can just be AoE’ed on in my opinion makes them fairly worthless…in fact all doors and walls in WvW seem to not actually be too useful in the end.