Guild Wars 2

Hey guys!

So I have been playing in a WvW guild which takes wvw quite seriously and I have been playing on my necro since that is basicly meta.
However my main is engineer and I wondered, why are they found not useful in zergs? I mean they have huge AoE pressure, access to important fields like water, burns stability easy with slick shoes and high AoE burst (like jump shot)

Ps, yes yes i know play what I want, but just wondering:)

The main reason why GWEN professions are meta for zerg is because of group synergy. Tanky frontline, zerk backline for damage. The problem for engi is many people cannot play it properly, it has a very high learning curve, probably the hardest profession for most people to understand because of its versatility. Engi is much better for small teams and havok squads then zerging because thats where their skills can really shine.

Heres some problems for engi:

-Grenades lots of spamming the #1 key and constant aoe targeting because no auto attack on it bothers many people and makes it uncomfortable to play, also can make movement and positioning difficult for some players. Grenades are also subject to very high damage from retaliation because many trait for grenadier and the fast attacks from the #1 skill can cause more damage to the engi than an enemy zerg. An issue also with this is the fly times of the grenades you might take a ton of retaliation damage from a previous attack while your next attack is already up in the air causing extra incoming damage.

-Bomb kit is useful for melee and upclose fights, and have to be careful in zerg fights

-Rifle has small range for some reason than it should, #2 skill has an immob better for small team stuff, #3 skill good damage and bleeds but short range, #4 knockback but short range better for small team stuff, #5 leap and vuln and good dmg but better for small teams because most of the time you dont want to leap into a giant enemy zerg

-Turrets not very useful for zerging, they melt almost instantly, but can be useful in small teams

-Heal skills can be unreliable at times, heal turret is not great for zergs because of the low heal and slow activation time for the 2nd heal. Medkit can be decent but if you have autoattack on it will constantly drop the 1st bandage infront of you basically wasting it, also the bandages and antidote/stimulant are dropped in front of you which can make it difficult to actually heal yourself when moving because you can actually not interact with it and it can be picked up by allies. AED is prob your best bet but very high cd.

Engi has many uses, good mobility and escape options, tons of ccs, lots of condi spamming abilities, good power based damage ability and can add group support as well. That being said its best used for small teams, not that engi is not useful in zergs, its just better for small teams in my opinion

1. The point you have about retal is very strong an understandable indeed. When it comes down to aiming however, its not that hard to hit a giant blob with AoE, especially for experienced engis.
2. I did actually not think about bomb because of the delay ,causing bombing your enemies to be late
3. Jump shot can also be done on one spot, where necro bombs are happening for example.
4. Exclude turrets. Turrets are indeed a no go
5. If you double press your water turret, the water field actually pops up inmediatly making it great for AoE heal.

I was actually thinking about running nades, with toolkit and slick shoes. Add in leg mods with condi duration food and runes of melandru and you basicly wont be bothered by soft cc. Only thing you need is to have guards for stability, and you can happily run forward out of you zerg with superspeed+slick shoes to burn the stabil stacks when your allies arrive 1s later.
I think engineers can be immense strong because when you are pulling back a bit or empowering, you can still easily pressure the enemy.

Key word “experienced” the thing is it is very easy to stand there and target a enemy zerg with grenades, the problem is when your trying to move and target moving enemies at the same time it creates this awkward hand positioning that makes it uncomfortable for many people and can make it difficult to properly respond with other skills.

And yea sorry I forgot tool kit, has good blocks and engi shield can give blocks as well giving good survivability and the pull is popular for commander sniping. Turrets yea near useless for wvw, but popular for pvp. And have to be careful with the leap skill or you can get hit with the kitten immobilized in the air bug :/

Bomb kit is very strong for melee support, but as XTD said, you need to be very good with engineer to survive in the frontline. Here’s an example of a frontline engineer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHHTeP_Xh68

I’ve used engineers as a “water field” for blasting – it’s very difficult to make other players blast the field. You typically would need to have the engineer countdown in TS, and after he says “water” he has to wait 1/2 a second and then cast the spell in order for other players to have a chance to blast the field.

Engineers are great for AOEing downed enemies, applying Poison to the downed in order to prevent Warbanners from resing enemies.

The main reason they’re not meta is because it’s not simple to play an engineer, and they’re difficult to survive with against large numbers.

I dunno. Slick shoes stripping an entire zerg of stability and knocking down masses of them at once seems fairly “meta” in my opinion.

They are meta, people just don’t know it yet or are not mechanically proficient enough.

Most wvwers are very casual and not suited to the class. Better guilds will use them more and more in the future.

They will be the new meta when Engi hammer specialization comes in. Frontline Engi HYPE!!!!

we dont need hammer for a frontline build, we frontline very well with slicky, rifle, and bombs.

we need hammer for a commanding build, where we cant dedicate 2 utilities to slicky and bombs, and slicky is obviously the 1 we cant give up.

Because it is hard class for most people to play good. The Gwen classes are all pretty simple to pick up

Indie.4129:

Because it is hard class for most people to play good. The Gwen classes are all pretty simple to pick up

No, they are not “pretty simple” you cant just play them with little knowledge of the class, improper gear and build setups and expect to do well in fights. They are meta classes because they bring the most to the fight, and because they are the most effective with excellent group synergy, there is a reason nobody asks for rangers and thieves in parties for example and their need in guild recuitment for wvw is always low or none at all.

I predict engi will soon become part of the meta, filling the same roll as the ele. Their anti siege capabilities are better and they bring similar combo field options.c

Synosius.9876:

I predict engi will soon become part of the meta, filling the same roll as the ele. Their anti siege capabilities are better and they bring similar combo field options.c

The GWEN meta hasn’t got anything to do with siege lol

Flyphish.6398:

They are meta, people just don’t know it yet or are not mechanically proficient enough.

Most wvwers are very casual and not suited to the class. Better guilds will use them more and more in the future.

Meta is what players know and use now
Engi is not a meta. Engi is a small scale and 1v1 prof

An engi using sd build can have extreme burst, good aoe pressure, 1 waterfield (2 actually but the second lasts only 1sec though), 2 blasts, a 1200 range pull, a 1200 (traited) rifle that can hit like a truck and a very good immobilize (focus party wink wink :P).

Currently the engi does work with the pirate meta. Make sure you run fire sigil and grenades. Run something like sinister and watch the enemy die at 1500 range arrrrrrggghhhh matey!

X T D.6458:

Indie.4129:

Because it is hard class for most people to play good. The Gwen classes are all pretty simple to pick up

No, they are not “pretty simple” you cant just play them with little knowledge of the class, improper gear and build setups and expect to do well in fights. They are meta classes because they bring the most to the fight, and because they are the most effective with excellent group synergy, there is a reason nobody asks for rangers and thieves in parties for example and their need in guild recuitment for wvw is always low or none at all.

That all sounds nice and good but there is a reason so many people run warrior and guardian for instance. Yeah they provide a lot, but they are also very forgiving in a Zerg environment. Let’s try to look at the pug Zerg not balanced guild groups.

GWEN works for a variety of reasons.

Guardians and Warriors can generate a lot of AOE stability to carry the Necros stability while the Elementalists get tons with Armor of Earth now. Other classes need a lot of sources. Rangers can work because of Rampage as One and Signet of the Wild for example.

In addition many of these classes buff and provide utilities to each other outside of the Necros who are primarily there for their massive Well spike damage. Mesmers also part of this and provide veils, portals and other utility as needed (reflects, etc).

However GWEN’s damage is largely melee or ground target based and not projectile based. Anyone who has played a ranger out in WvW knows that feeling when you run into 4-5 guardians and Mesmers running reflect and nothing you do is applying any kind of damage or worse you are killing your own team. Engineers are also largely projectile based as well which hurts them immensely. Rangers can at least swap out to Great Sword and with stability and the rest of their protection actually perform pretty well in the melee.

A lot of people like to go on and on and on (and on and on and on…) about how easy GWEN classes are to play. The simple truth here is that things were made simple for people because it’s good commanding to make things simple for your people. Expecting everyone to play their class like it’s high end tourney play is ridiculous and unrealistic when you’re talking about 40+ people let alone enforceable. If other classes like Engineer had something to offer GWEN then they’d be made simplified as well.

Ignoring the melee, its quite simple. It doesnt have the specific utility of ele and it not even close to the instant AoE bomb of the necro. The engineer cannot replace any of these classes. If we look the toward the focus parties, its not as good as thieves, ranger or mesmers vs single targets. The engineer is flexible and I like it for random roaming, but it doesnt quite excel at anything required of the meta.

Well, except i the first hour of a 40 man engineer raid dropping supplies as one and instakilling same size guild raids (pre stab nerf) :p

After that they learned

dancingmonkey.4902:

I dunno. Slick shoes stripping an entire zerg of stability and knocking down masses of them at once seems fairly “meta” in my opinion.

Explain to me how 1 slick shoes is gonna strip an entire zerg from stability. Not only will you have to get close, which is a pain for engi and will most likely get CCed himself, it will only rip 1 maybe 2 stacks of stab per person. There are so many more effective ways of CCing someone then hoping them to run into your slick shoes.

Engi can be good, but not more than 2 and that would be for pulls only. The problem you get though with that is that you have to give up 2 mesmer/thieves or 1 mesmer/thief + 1 ele probably, which is not exactly what you want.
In the current pirateship meta you could probably make 2 engies and 2 rangers as fp work though. Just use the engi smokefield as blast finisher for stealth .

BlackDevil.9268:

dancingmonkey.4902:

I dunno. Slick shoes stripping an entire zerg of stability and knocking down masses of them at once seems fairly “meta” in my opinion.

Explain to me how 1 slick shoes is gonna strip an entire zerg from stability. Not only will you have to get close, which is a pain for engi and will most likely get CCed himself, it will only rip 1 maybe 2 stacks of stab per person. There are so many more effective ways of CCing someone then hoping them to run into your slick shoes.

Engi can be good, but not more than 2 and that would be for pulls only. The problem you get though with that is that you have to give up 2 mesmer/thieves or 1 mesmer/thief + 1 ele probably, which is not exactly what you want.
In the current pirateship meta you could probably make 2 engies and 2 rangers as fp work though. Just use the engi smokefield as blast finisher for stealth .

imagine 5 engis rocket booting into you and all using slick shoes on your hammer train, followed by their hammer train. if something goes wrong and you do significant damage to them, they shrink when they hit 25% and gtfo. and they have 98% reduction on soft cc (and super speed to bypass the 1 minute of cripple that stacks up on them anyways).

I find my engi is useful for getting in the back lines (away from the retal) and attacking their necros and eles, or chasing off any thiefs playing around in our backlines.

Nades are a death sentence against any organised zerg with the current broken retal mechanic- you get back more in damage than you cause to the average guard..

McWolfy.5924:

Flyphish.6398:

They are meta, people just don’t know it yet or are not mechanically proficient enough.

Most wvwers are very casual and not suited to the class. Better guilds will use them more and more in the future.

Meta is what players know and use now
Engi is not a meta. Engi is a small scale and 1v1 prof

True, they are top tier in terms of performance, not popularity. It will take top guilds to use them in greater numbers for the masses to catch the trend, hence becoming meta.

To your second point, I disagree. They are top tier in big fights as well, just much more mechanically taxing. People that follow GWEN blindly lack imagination and skill.

insanemaniac.2456:

BlackDevil.9268:

dancingmonkey.4902:

I dunno. Slick shoes stripping an entire zerg of stability and knocking down masses of them at once seems fairly “meta” in my opinion.

Explain to me how 1 slick shoes is gonna strip an entire zerg from stability. Not only will you have to get close, which is a pain for engi and will most likely get CCed himself, it will only rip 1 maybe 2 stacks of stab per person. There are so many more effective ways of CCing someone then hoping them to run into your slick shoes.

Engi can be good, but not more than 2 and that would be for pulls only. The problem you get though with that is that you have to give up 2 mesmer/thieves or 1 mesmer/thief + 1 ele probably, which is not exactly what you want.
In the current pirateship meta you could probably make 2 engies and 2 rangers as fp work though. Just use the engi smokefield as blast finisher for stealth .

imagine 5 engis rocket booting into you and all using slick shoes on your hammer train, followed by their hammer train. if something goes wrong and you do significant damage to them, they shrink when they hit 25% and gtfo. and they have 98% reduction on soft cc (and super speed to bypass the 1 minute of cripple that stacks up on them anyways).

Think his point is you can do the same with guardian lines without losing 5 slots on your team comp :P

Key point here is you need to think 1) what can my class do that others cant 2) if others classes also have the ability to do whatever im saying the biggest reason to bring my class is, how much risk/damage does each class have to sustain to do this and which class can do more things on top of that

insanemaniac.2456:

BlackDevil.9268:

dancingmonkey.4902:

I dunno. Slick shoes stripping an entire zerg of stability and knocking down masses of them at once seems fairly “meta” in my opinion.

Explain to me how 1 slick shoes is gonna strip an entire zerg from stability. Not only will you have to get close, which is a pain for engi and will most likely get CCed himself, it will only rip 1 maybe 2 stacks of stab per person. There are so many more effective ways of CCing someone then hoping them to run into your slick shoes.

Engi can be good, but not more than 2 and that would be for pulls only. The problem you get though with that is that you have to give up 2 mesmer/thieves or 1 mesmer/thief + 1 ele probably, which is not exactly what you want.
In the current pirateship meta you could probably make 2 engies and 2 rangers as fp work though. Just use the engi smokefield as blast finisher for stealth .

imagine 5 engis rocket booting into you and all using slick shoes on your hammer train, followed by their hammer train. if something goes wrong and you do significant damage to them, they shrink when they hit 25% and gtfo. and they have 98% reduction on soft cc (and super speed to bypass the 1 minute of cripple that stacks up on them anyways).

Imagine those 5 engies getting insta bombed by range and fp the moment they do that. Imagine those 5 engies taking up 5 melee slots how poor your melee damage is or taking up 5 backline slots how poor your ranged pressure, venom bomb, CC or how freefarm your backline is for the enemy fp the moment that melee jumps into the enemy melee. Imagine enemies that are smart enough do use a dodge backwards and kite the slick shoes.
No, sorry. The idea sounds cool, but in practice it’s way too easy to counter.

if they get insta bombed, they get a free out and a heal recharge at 25%.
they dont have crap melee damage with bombs.
they arent taking up backline slots, theyre replacing warriors because now warriors suck.

GWEN still works? I thought it was about range crapping these days.

ArchonWing.9480:

GWEN still works? I thought it was about range crapping these days.

yes, GWEN still works.

The change is that you’ve inverted the ratio of the GW to the EN it used to be 60/40 and now there’s more backline and periphery than melee train.

insanemaniac.2456:

if they get insta bombed, they get a free out and a heal recharge at 25%.
they dont have crap melee damage with bombs.
they arent taking up backline slots, theyre replacing warriors because now warriors suck.

Yes warriors totally suck.
They can only deal good CC bombs, good immobilizes and banners.
And what melee train do you expect to come after the engies? 6 guardians? Yeah massive bomb lol.

BlackDevil.9268:

insanemaniac.2456:

if they get insta bombed, they get a free out and a heal recharge at 25%.
they dont have crap melee damage with bombs.
they arent taking up backline slots, theyre replacing warriors because now warriors suck.

Yes warriors totally suck.
They can only deal good CC bombs, good immobilizes and banners.
And what melee train do you expect to come after the engies? 6 guardians? Yeah massive bomb lol.

your typical warrior is what… this? watch this replace it. because slick shoes doesnt have a target limit.

I do not believe BlackDevil. is actually aware of how SS functions. Thus, I do not believe he fully comprehends how much stability it can strip.

i think so too

I like to run this sometimes.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fdAQFAUlUUpkr9ZxzLseRSbBNyv0mQNRRuxp8xFEAA-TFCEwA22fol6PRVasVJITlZGuAAAeAAu1BEAABgbezbezbezyAUsAA-w

Decent damage. Food and runes synergize well with traits. It may be a bit squishy for some but I like it this way.

Edit: sry linked wrong build

If only eles couldn’t do the same thing from 1200 away.

Edit: stripping stab that is.

Kraljevo.2801:

I like to run this sometimes.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fdAQFAUlUUpkr9ZxzLseRSbBNyv0mQNRRuxp8xFEAA-TFCEwA22fol6PRVasVJITlZGuAAAeAAu1BEAABgbezbezbezyAUsAA-w

Decent damage. Food and runes synergize well with traits. It may be a bit squishy for some but I like it this way.

Edit: sry linked wrong build

trade out backpack regen for S @ 25%
getting in the middle of a regroup will make up for anything the regen could do

insanemaniac.2456:

BlackDevil.9268:

insanemaniac.2456:

if they get insta bombed, they get a free out and a heal recharge at 25%.
they dont have crap melee damage with bombs.
they arent taking up backline slots, theyre replacing warriors because now warriors suck.

Yes warriors totally suck.
They can only deal good CC bombs, good immobilizes and banners.
And what melee train do you expect to come after the engies? 6 guardians? Yeah massive bomb lol.

your typical warrior is what… this? watch this replace it. because slick shoes doesnt have a target limit.

Again line of warding does the same thing from range, you need more justification for swapping out 5 slots on your team comp.

Zetsumei.4975:

insanemaniac.2456:

BlackDevil.9268:

insanemaniac.2456:

if they get insta bombed, they get a free out and a heal recharge at 25%.
they dont have crap melee damage with bombs.
they arent taking up backline slots, theyre replacing warriors because now warriors suck.

Yes warriors totally suck.
They can only deal good CC bombs, good immobilizes and banners.
And what melee train do you expect to come after the engies? 6 guardians? Yeah massive bomb lol.

your typical warrior is what… this? watch this replace it. because slick shoes doesnt have a target limit.

Again line of warding does the same thing from range, you need more justification for swapping out 5 slots on your team comp.

again, no… no it doesnt. 1 engi can do more than all the lines of warding.

I thought Slick shoes was able to remove 5 stacks.
And Line of Warding 1?(unless the enemy walks back and forth across the line.)

ZhouFusion.1826:

I thought Slick shoes was able to remove 5 stacks.
And Line of Warding 1?(unless the enemy walks back and forth across the line.)

Are you assuming they’re running through all the little puddles or are you saying running over one puddle removes five stacks?

this thread can help to educate people on the mechanics of slick shoes

insanemaniac.2456:

this thread can help to educate people on the mechanics of slick shoes

In that case it can be interesting to have one engi on the gank squad assuming they can get out without relying on the 25% health trait proc otherwise they will easily be picked off by the enemy gank squad. It won’t be useful to have 5, other guilds have tried engis in the past eager to make use of magnetic pull but no they wont have a place on the frontline if this is all the argument for them is. One slick shoes on top of the guard lines and statics is enough.

insanemaniac.2456:

BlackDevil.9268:

insanemaniac.2456:

if they get insta bombed, they get a free out and a heal recharge at 25%.
they dont have crap melee damage with bombs.
they arent taking up backline slots, theyre replacing warriors because now warriors suck.

Yes warriors totally suck.
They can only deal good CC bombs, good immobilizes and banners.
And what melee train do you expect to come after the engies? 6 guardians? Yeah massive bomb lol.

your typical warrior is what… this? watch this replace it. because slick shoes doesnt have a target limit.

1. Engineer is far too slow. You need leaps to get into the enemy and leaps to get out, else bombing them will be far too obvious and will just result into the enemy melee leaping in your backline, killing 2 and getting out before you could even reach them.
2. You don’t have banners.
3. You don’t have stability
4. Slick shoes is on yourself, meaning you have to be on the enemy melee to actually hit it.
5. If you get immobilized mid-slick shoes you’re wasting a 36 seconds cd since you have no condi removal.
6. If you get caught by immob you’re practically dead.
7. You have far lower armor than a warrior, so you gotta compensate for that defensive loss, meaning you will have to reduce your damage. I wouldn’t be surprised at all if your damage is kitten.

Overall the build is very selfish and has no team support. It might work vs blobs, but that’s possible on arguably any class.

I’m very aware of how slick shoes work and also very aware of how things in theory can sound amazing, but just don’t work because people aren’t that dumb to fall for it.

p.s. I’m not trying to get you off your idea. If you think it can work, go for it man. I actually would love to see the gameplay of it as it’s probably pretty fun to watch.

Zetsumei.4975:

ZhouFusion.1826:

I thought Slick shoes was able to remove 5 stacks.
And Line of Warding 1?(unless the enemy walks back and forth across the line.)

Are you assuming they’re running through all the little puddles or are you saying running over one puddle removes five stacks?

That is not how it works. you can use rocket boots or super speed + slick shoes and put the puddle at their feet. Slick shoes can optimally remove 3 stacks of stability per player, per seconds, for 3 seconds.

Zetsumei.4975:

insanemaniac.2456:

this thread can help to educate people on the mechanics of slick shoes

In that case it can be interesting to have one engi on the gank squad assuming they can get out without relying on the 25% health trait proc otherwise they will easily be picked off by the enemy gank squad. It won’t be useful to have 5, other guilds have tried engis in the past eager to make use of magnetic pull but no they wont have a place on the frontline if this is all the argument for them is. One slick shoes on top of the guard lines and statics is enough.

Why do you think they would need to be on the tank squad?

Do you seriously think no one has played rangers, mesmers, and engineers in WvW for the past 2-3 years?

There have been well known front line commanders of all of those professions in the past as well.

The inability to think outside the box, on these forums, is sometimes baffling to me.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Zetsumei.4975:

ZhouFusion.1826:

I thought Slick shoes was able to remove 5 stacks.
And Line of Warding 1?(unless the enemy walks back and forth across the line.)

Are you assuming they’re running through all the little puddles or are you saying running over one puddle removes five stacks?

That is not how it works. you can use rocket boots or super speed + slick shoes and put the puddle at their feet. Slick shoes can optimally remove 3 stacks of stability per player, per seconds, for 3 seconds.

Yeah.. theyre not gonna stay still, from that thread that was linked it seems running over a puddle once would remove 5 stacks. You run to make a make-shift line of warding with it that removes 5 stacks by running through once which will strip most of it and the lines and statics will do the actually stunning. That ofcourse is disregarding all the other problems such as how are you gonna get in and how are you gonna get out and no, being a one-trick pony by relying on that trait only to be picked off by the gank squad isnt the preferred situation, you need a leap but you can probably rely on your gank squads stealth, stun break and the rocket boots out.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Zetsumei.4975:

ZhouFusion.1826:

I thought Slick shoes was able to remove 5 stacks.
And Line of Warding 1?(unless the enemy walks back and forth across the line.)

Are you assuming they’re running through all the little puddles or are you saying running over one puddle removes five stacks?

That is not how it works. you can use rocket boots or super speed + slick shoes and put the puddle at their feet. Slick shoes can optimally remove 3 stacks of stability per player, per seconds, for 3 seconds.

Zetsumei.4975:

insanemaniac.2456:

this thread can help to educate people on the mechanics of slick shoes

In that case it can be interesting to have one engi on the gank squad assuming they can get out without relying on the 25% health trait proc otherwise they will easily be picked off by the enemy gank squad. It won’t be useful to have 5, other guilds have tried engis in the past eager to make use of magnetic pull but no they wont have a place on the frontline if this is all the argument for them is. One slick shoes on top of the guard lines and statics is enough.

Why do you think they would need to be on the tank squad?

Do you seriously think no one has played rangers, mesmers, and engineers in WvW for the past 2-3 years?

There have been well known front line commanders of all of those professions in the past as well.

The inability to think outside the box, on these forums, is sometimes baffling to me.

Well I guess the problem here is im talking about one guild group taking on another guild group not pug commanding.

Honestly, It seems to me the problem is that you arguing out of a complete lack of knowledge. You made it quite clear you have no experience playing one. Yet you actually believe you can argue against the virtues of it.

BlackDevil.9268:

1. Engineer is far too slow. You need leaps to get into the enemy and leaps to get out, else bombing them will be far too obvious and will just result into the enemy melee leaping in your backline, killing 2 and getting out before you could even reach them.

Too slow? You mean with the 1500 range leap of Super Speed + Rocket Boots? Unlimited swiftness with speedy kits? Acid bomb leap?

I am not even sure you have even seen an engineer at this point.

BlackDevil.9268:

2. You don’t have banners.

Neither does any other profession besides warrior. Guess in your argument it is go warrior or go home.

We do have http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Toss_Elixir_R

BlackDevil.9268:

3. You don’t have stability.

We don’t?
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Toss_Elixir_B
Are you sure you actually know what an engineer is?

But you should know, 5 other professions have been playing with out this crutch for years.

BlackDevil.9268:

4. Slick shoes is on yourself, meaning you have to be on the enemy melee to actually hit it.

Yeah. Thanks for pointing that out. I do not think a single engineer like Boom stick, Coglin, or the other engineers commanding have ever thought of this in the entire history of the game.

BlackDevil.9268:

5. If you get immobilized mid-slick shoes you’re wasting a 36 seconds cd since you have no condi removal.

You poor poor, uninformed back liner you.

BlackDevil.9268:

6. If you get caught by immob you’re practically dead.

Any other class isn’t? You really think engineer is less equipped to get out then any other profession?

BlackDevil.9268:

7. You have far lower armor than a warrior, so you gotta compensate for that defensive loss, meaning you will have to reduce your damage. I wouldn’t be surprised at all if your damage is kitten.

AH. Perfect. Glad you finally admit you haven’t a clue what our armor and damage is. I run a 2/0/6/4/2 build that has 3400 armore 26000 hp. 1400 AoE auto attack damage. on bomb kit, AoE blind (and smoke field) on bomb kit. 2 water fields. Fire fields. 5 blast finishers.

BlackDevil.9268:

Overall the build is very selfish and has no team support. It might work vs blobs, but that’s possible on arguably any class.

I’m very aware of how slick shoes work and also very aware of how things in theory can sound amazing, but just don’t work because people aren’t that dumb to fall for it.

p.s. I’m not trying to get you off your idea. If you think it can work, go for it man. I actually would love to see the gameplay of it as it’s probably pretty fun to watch.

So 2 AoE water fields, and AoE condition removal Are selfish? AoE might stacking is selfish? AoE debuffs, such as invulnerability are selfish?

How many hours in WvW do you have on your engineer?

Zetsumei.4975:

Well I guess the problem here is im talking about one guild group taking on another guild group not pug commanding.

No, not really. What it strikes me as, is that every time someone strikes a reasonable counter argument, you change your requirements for the situation of the argument.

Really causes one to wonder, why you are so against them, that you would risk arguing about something you know so little about

I have found two ways for Engi to fit very well into the meta atm. You have to adjust your expectations of the class and utilize it properly. I saw two but have listed a third which may or may not work better for you but doesn’t work well for me personally lol.

1. Probably my favorite build to fit into the meta, you focus around high survival and bombs with power, rather than condi. You can also stack healing pretty well with this. I tend to pick up a number of self and ally survival tools to help with as many blast finishers as I can fit on my bar. The basic goal is to drop bombs while stacked on pin, and provide support to allied melee with small bomb tick heals. The number of blasts in this build alone makes it perfect for the meta just a high skill curve. I use pistol shield over rifle in zergs for the block and additional blast finisher.

2. Heavy Grenade focus – This fits very well into pirate ship meta just need to have the health pool to make up for retal damage. Also choose to stack condi or power for your grenades, and adjust your build accordingly. I also tend to enjoy building this with HgH and slotting elixirs into my additional slots. This will give you additional group utility, and condition cleanse.

3* Bunker Flamethrower – I have a friend who plays this build and will speak the world of it, personally I cannot get it to work properly for me in zerg play so I stick to my bomb bunker. He is build with a combination of Valk/Knights/Sent to get a good balance of damage and survival, and he just goes to town with a flame thrower and blasts. Play similar to a D/D ele in the sense you dance on and off commander point rather than being stacked directly on.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Honestly, It seems to me the problem is that you arguing out of a complete lack of knowledge. You made it quite clear you have no experience playing one. Yet you actually believe you can argue against the virtues of it.

No I’m looking at the facts what a class can do and what it can’t. With that I took the 2 builds you linked and compared them. These responses you’re giving to me are quite leading towards personal attack so might wanna tone it down a little will ya.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Too slow? You mean with the 1500 range leap of Super Speed + Rocket Boots? Unlimited swiftness with speedy kits? Acid bomb leap?

The way you said slick shoes would work, is by using rocket boots + super speed into the enemy and then use your slick shoes. What are you supposed to use to get out? Acid bomb? That’s gonna be very unreliable. Any decent focus party will snipe you in seconds the moment you do that, not to mention that they should already kill that 75% hp before you even activated your slick shoes. Also you will not have any stability with that build the moment you jump in with rocket boots since guards use their stab 1 once they engage, which is after you jumped in. So yeah, 50/50 you will get stuck against any decent guild.

Any frontline class has perm swiftness. That doesn’t count towards your mobility compared to other classes.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Neither does any other profession besides warrior. Guess in your argument it is go warrior or go home.
We do have ‘’Toss Elixir R’’

Well you’re the one saying it should/could replace warrior, not me. So with that I will compare warrior to engineer. That gives me enough reason to include banner into the arguments.

You’re not using that skill in the build, so why even mention it? It’s also absolutely horrible next to banner.

dancingmonkey.4902:

We don’t have stability?
‘’Toss elixir B’’
Are you sure you actually know what an engineer is?

You’re not using that skill in your build and the stab is very poor and stripped off in just a matter of seconds. Not worth mentioning either.

BlackDevil.9268:

5. If you get immobilized mid-slick shoes you’re wasting a 36 seconds cd since you have no condi removal.

dancingmonkey.4902:

You poor poor, uninformed back liner you.

Such arguments used here… Much wow…
You don’t have any reliable instant condition removal. Don’t tell me you actually are able to avoid all immobilizes cause I’m sure my guild would love to show you and your engineer guild you can’t.

BlackDevil.9268:

6. If you get caught by immob you’re practically dead.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Any other class isn’t? You really think engineer is less equipped to get out then any other profession?

Nope, any other class can easily get out or just use one of their 2/3 immunities to outlast the immobilize.

dancingmonkey.4902:

AH. Perfect. Glad you finally admit you haven’t a clue what our armor and damage is. I run a 2/0/6/4/2 build that has 3400 armore 26000 hp. 1400 AoE auto attack damage. on bomb kit, AoE blind (and smoke field) on bomb kit. 2 water fields. Fire fields. 5 blast finishers.

3400 armor… What are you fighting to deal 1400 aoe attack? EotM raids ftw? That’s full soldiers on medium armored classes. I can’t even reach that much armor in the builder on engi.
Bomb kit? You actually spam auto attack bomb kit? Idk which eotm blobs you’re fighting, but if my guild’s melee would be so slow to even get hit by your auto attack bomb kit I would instantly delete my game.

dancingmonkey.4902:

So 2 AoE water fields, and AoE condition removal Are selfish? AoE might stacking is selfish? AoE debuffs, such as invulnerability are selfish?

The water fields are okish, something you also gain from eles and far longer/better.
The aoe might stacking is a joke right? Cause I’m pretty sure the might stacking you mean, is by laying down a fire field and then blasting it. Something an ele + warrior can do aswell. Not only that but the most might stacking in WvW comes from empowers, which is related to guardian.

Aoe debuffs -> aoe invurnability ??
Invurnability is a buff
Since when can an engi give allies invurnability?

BlackDevil.9268:

3400 armor… What are you fighting to deal 1400 aoe attack? EotM raids ftw? That’s full soldiers on medium armored classes. I can’t even reach that much armor in the builder on engi.

Why do you project your inabilities on others?
I have been PIN of a build group on T1 since release, and those are perfectly reasonable stats (I generally exceed those numbers slightly)

Try putting the builder aside once and a while, and have some actually experience with a profession, before you attempt to tell folks what it can or cannot do please.

BlackDevil.9268:

No I’m looking at the facts what a class can do and what it can’t. With that I took the 2 builds you linked and compared them. These responses you’re giving to me are quite leading towards personal attack so might wanna tone it down a little will ya.

Facts? No, not really. Your making very many statements that display a lack of understanding of the profession as a whole.

It is not a personal attack to inform you that you that you are making inaccurate statements.

Personal attacks, in my opinion, is more in line with your dishonest claims that they stated “replacing” warrior with engineer. Can you quote specifically where anyone claimed that in this thread at all?

Seems to me, that reasonable posters are suggesting using them in conjunction with. As most of us do now. You are the only one speaking in terms of “either or”

BlackDevil.9268:

Aoe debuffs -> aoe invurnability ??
Invurnability is a buff
Since when can an engi give allies invurnability?

I think it was a typo and he meant vulnerability.

BlackDevil.9268:

The water fields are okish

“okish”?

What kind of guild group are you in in which waters are simply “okish”???

BlackDevil.9268:

The water fields are okish, something you also gain from eles and far longer/better.
The aoe might stacking is a joke right? Cause I’m pretty sure the might stacking you mean, is by laying down a fire field and then blasting it. Something an ele + warrior can do aswell.

Not entirely certain where you are going with this.

So it is a joke when any profession other then guardians or warriors do it? When a profession with a 5 blast finisher build does it, it is a joke?

By the way, I see you avoided answering the question asking how many hours you have on an engineer in WvW?

BlackDevil.9268:

Bomb kit? You actually spam auto attack bomb kit? Idk which eotm blobs you’re fighting, but if my guild’s melee would be so slow to even get hit by your auto attack bomb kit I would instantly delete my game.

For the record, please do not cry fowl, and point fingers about personal attacks, then make uninformed accusations of this nature.

coglin.1867:

BlackDevil.9268:

3400 armor… What are you fighting to deal 1400 aoe attack? EotM raids ftw? That’s full soldiers on medium armored classes. I can’t even reach that much armor in the builder on engi.

Why do you project your inabilities on others?
I have been PIN of a build group on T1 since release, and those are perfectly reasonable stats (I generally exceed those numbers slightly)

Try putting the builder aside once and a while, and have some actually experience with a profession, before you attempt to tell folks what it can or cannot do please.

BlackDevil.9268:

No I’m looking at the facts what a class can do and what it can’t. With that I took the 2 builds you linked and compared them. These responses you’re giving to me are quite leading towards personal attack so might wanna tone it down a little will ya.

Facts? No, not really. Your making very many statements that display a lack of understanding of the profession as a whole.

It is not a personal attack to inform you that you that you are making inaccurate statements.

Personal attacks, in my opinion, is more in line with your dishonest claims that they stated “replacing” warrior with engineer. Can you quote specifically where anyone claimed that in this thread at all?

Seems to me, that reasonable posters are suggesting using them in conjunction with. As most of us do now. You are the only one speaking in terms of “either or”

BlackDevil.9268:

Aoe debuffs -> aoe invurnability ??
Invurnability is a buff
Since when can an engi give allies invurnability?

I think it was a typo and he meant vulnerability.

BlackDevil.9268:

The water fields are okish

“okish”?

What kind of guild group are you in in which waters are simply “okish”???

aaaand it begins – arguing about arguing.. thread derailed

also he was talking about how the engi waterfields compare to ele waterfields not the effectiveness of water fields in general