Guild Wars 2

blobs are what a many players standing on top of each other are called to stack buffs. by staying in a blob and tab-targeting you can get many kills without strategy, just spaming your default #1 attack.

But why are buffs applied in a circle?`why is it not a straight line that players have to fill. or a arrow shaped formation circle. then players would move like an army. a light blue force field, that applies the buffs to everyone in the field. so a army of 50-100 players would have a really long horizontal, arrow shaped or some other army formation, and a player on on end, would have all his party buffs, and effects applied to everyone within the big field. that way you could have armies fight opposite each other. picture below to illustrate

if enemy players kill people in the middle of this buff/protection line, the line has been broken. just like in real warfare.

this would increase the level of strategy significantly and allow enemies to try and flank and attack another group of players with a different purpose!

I have no idea how it would work, it just seems weird to me that we are just doing the blob thing. it might have something to do with players being able to go through each other. I understand this is an anti-griefing mechanic as players. never the less its strange.

just an idea!

In the line format, people could still stand directly on the commander and be on the line.

Also the main reason for stacking, or turtling, is damage mitigation. If one side decided to spread out, the other could stack tight and push the very center of the line (on the commander). In which case the commander would take a full 50 AA’s a second. Where’as if his side also stacked, those 50 AA’s would disperse over his zerg, and he would only cop a fraction of them.

As stated, the aoe cap of 5 from most skills is a big reason for this, being tight reduces the number of hits each person is going to receive, also, combat and “real” warfare is not arrow or line formations, not really sure where you got this idea or why you think that is how real fights happen. Balling up IS a tactic that takes advantage of the current system, it allows for the damage to be spread out, it allows buffs to hit more people, it takes advantage of culling (hiding your true numbers, veil etc etc), it gives an easy team for pugs to follow, it makes it harder to target down a single person, it gives coverage to the commander, if you down a commander in a battle, often times all is lost as the time it takes for someone else to take command the fight is over.

• AOE cap of 5
• small range of most buffs

These directly cause the stacked blobs.

Lord Kuru.3685:

• AOE cap of 5
• small range of most buffs

These directly cause the stacked blobs.

If they increase the AoE from 5 to say 10-20 can you imagine how fast Retal would kill you when you drop that AoE bomb into it, I remember the day they changed the Retal in WvW my Mesmer exploded when I dropped staff skill 5 into the enemy zerg.

I appreciate the OP effort; however, I have difficulty with both the premise and the conclusion.

A rational counter-argument has been well expressed above. However, I would add — despite the meta — I am not keen on moving to a meta that can best be described as rugby or pre-20th century (line up and shoot at each other) war.

Largely, the present tactics are optimal for and governed by the current meta.

I remember when AOE, portals, and invis was less limited. Tactics have always adapted to the meta.

Everything else aside, the “turtle” concept presented (as a sit-and-spin, buff-and-shoot tactic) is simply non-optimal. The current optimal tactic is to first stack and buff (out of range) — back-and-forth “push through” the enemy. Move-move-move. The non-moving turtle will ultimately lose to attrition (or ctrl-T/T focus-fire).

But guys, that’s the thing.

Why should players be able to stand 50 people “inside” each other? why cant they disable this for WvW. after all, it forces you to tab target into stead of relying movements and positioning right?

And if people cant run through each other, you cant have 50 people right by the commander. So create force field, in which everyone in the field gets any buff and passive bonus as long as they are in the field.

Hello

The game engine has no collision detection, that’s why we can all merge into 1 spot. Other rvr games like the 2008 Warhammer online had it.

FW

Sad Swordfish.9743:

But guys, that’s the thing.

Why should players be able to stand 50 people “inside” each other? why cant they disable this for WvW. after all, it forces you to tab target into stead of relying movements and positioning right?

And if people cant run through each other, you cant have 50 people right by the commander. So create force field, in which everyone in the field gets any buff and passive bonus as long as they are in the field.

Fannwong.3059:

The game engine has no collision detection, that’s why we can all merge into 1 spot. Other rvr games like the 2008 Warhammer online had it.

qft and +1 Internets. ^^^ lack of collision is definitely part of the problem

While I miss the [WM] FW, I’m thrilled we have the [SoX] FW.

I actually like your idea of quite literally “holding the line” to be an effective battlefield force very, very much.
With fields like this they could also include more pulsating ones.

Well it is a real world tactic.. And so happens to be most beneficial in game so ppl do it..

Hello Jamais vu,

If collision detection was implemented, the next most effective battlefield formation would the line formation (and variations of it) much like ancient warfare/battles.

I remember that in WAR, we could do a 300 style defense. It was possible to hold off 50+ players with 20+ just because the castle outer door was extremely narrow and we could use 3-4 tanks to blockade the front for while range were dps-ing.

@Dank, this tactic is called Testudo formation. It involves stacking but to a limit, there are various counters against it. In GW2, lack of collision detection along with 5man AOE limit makes it unbeatable atm.

@Zortek, thank you, much appreciated. The JQ community has a great number of really fun folks.

FW

Jamais vu.5284:

I actually like your idea of quite literally “holding the line” to be an effective battlefield force very, very much.
With fields like this they could also include more pulsating ones.

Fannwong.3059:

I remember that in WAR, we could do a 300 style defense. It was possible to hold off 50+ players with 20+ just because the castle outer door was extremely narrow and we could use 3-4 tanks to blockade the front for while range were dps-ing.

Yes.

There were tactics for gate and ramp defenses. And there were tactics for open field engagements.

Knockbacks were an important consideration and a skilled defense would have secondary and tertiary lines. While at the same time, a skilled offense would not always commit full resources to frontal assaults.

Healing was a critical element (and ultimately the lack of healer love by Mythic forced the best and brightest RMs and Zealots to quit).

That was a point in time when some of the greatest players (and guilds) in the world came together in the same venue for a brief moment. The game introduced us to new potentials and new challenges. Despite its failings, I certainly have more good memories of WAR than I do bad.

I don’t think people are practicing revisionist history when they reflect on past titles. I think there is exceptional learning in such reflections. It is an opportunity to celebrate those things that WORKED.

Mythic (twice) gave us a taste of gamer crack. I think some share my desire for another fix. I know the current offerings are not providing the gamer high I remember or desire. Perhaps we have built up a tolerance. That said, the present market is all we have… so, we make do.

Sad Swordfish.9743:

But guys, that’s the thing.

Why should players be able to stand 50 people “inside” each other? why cant they disable this for WvW. after all, it forces you to tab target into stead of relying movements and positioning right?

And if people cant run through each other, you cant have 50 people right by the commander. So create force field, in which everyone in the field gets any buff and passive bonus as long as they are in the field.

Because, out of frustration, people would log off more than anything.

Imagine trying to kite your enemy when, suddenly, your friendly kiting the other way bumps into you. The two of you effectively stun eachother in a nasty aoe and the enemy calls it a day. Awesome.

Warhammer did have CD but it worked pretty poorly in the beginning. I don’t know if it ever got really good.

dank.3680:

Well it is a real world tactic.. And so happens to be most beneficial in game so ppl do it..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=8sFsSJMrQaE#t=47

Blobbing ultimately requires the least amount of coordination. Doesn’t matter who you are, what class you’re on, what direction the enemy is in, what everyone else is playing, whether people are on teamspeak or in squad or not. All you need is a single beacon and a single word: “Stack”.

The real world tactic part of this is a phalanx. Soldiers would stack together such that their shields cover each other. This protects them from ranged attack until they can get to melee range. In melee range they’re stronger.

A phalanx is not without it’s drawbacks. Namely mobility. It is not easy to move a phalanx without weakening its coverage. The guys in that picture up there would have a difficult time moving across a battlefield strewn with bodies. The defense isn’t perfect either. Some holes would let occasional arrows slip through and their feet are exposed to fire.

This is what a blob recreates in GW2. The designs in GW2 make the phalanx more powerful than pretty much any other formation. Without body collision a phalanx can move at will and rather quickly. Without body collision a line formation is useless. They run right through you. With the 5 target AOE cap there is no weapon that can easily penetrate the phalanx and no need to actually coordinate anything. Separating out actually makes aoe more effective than stacking tight.

Finally blobbing is the most rewarding formation. Everyone shows up in the capture circle in time to get credit. If your server is able to get simply overwhelming force then it can stream reward.

I highlighted above some changes that would be necessary to make zerg blobbing less effective and make other formations more effective. These would be

• body blocking: It doesn’t have to be rigid body collision. Simply 2D circle collision would do and each only requires a single distance calculation to do. Manhattan distance calculation is extremely cheap for a server to do (x*x+y*y+z*z < dist*dist) (2 adds, 4 multiplies, 1 comparison)
• AOE cap removal: This more than anything encourages the blobbing formation we see today. With AOE cap at 5 there is no danger to stacking in a blob. If AOE cap goes to 15-20 then blobbing becomes a death trap for your server.

Since the rules today are no collision and AOE capped really low there is no downside to blobbing. Combined with the simplicity and high reward output of such formation there is no reason for players to strategize anything beyond that (unless they want to kill such blobs).

Is the OP from an usa server? Good guild groups love when you all standing close together. Gives them a place to nuke. Like the same reason why portal bombs doesn’t work anymore. Give the other group enough time to buff up and do a coordinated nuke.

But guild groups use the blobbing tactic too, but they place all the wells and nukes on themselves as soon they see the enemy incoming. That’s why groups do fake attacks these days.. so the enemy blob use all their wells etc..
Buts that all for very organized groups to use.. The usual pug zerg without much comm, is probably better if they spread out and give the guild groups melee train no big target to hit and makes it easier for individual players to see when to dodge away.

I would love to see a 50 man Zerg walk, yes walk, in a massive line into battle, it would be so epic!!!

PvP tanking in WAR is the most fun I’ve had in an MMO.

Buuut, if you think framerate is bad in WvW … oy.

Don’t know why anyone hasn’t borrowed the idea of offensive and defensive targeting though. That was awesome. You could bunker a flag with a tank+healer practically forever.

Theres barely any terrain in any map that can fit 50 ppl lined up hotizontally without any obstruction, it might look cool but it’d woudnt be effective

Doesn’t blob and zerg go hand in hand? Strength in numbers.

Also, with the AoE cap, it is more intelligent to run in a blob.