Guild Wars 2

I’ve wondered this since the earliest days of WvW over a year ago, and there is still no explanation why this buff doesn’t effect combat stats. In a game like this, where population imbalance is the #1 deciding factor of success/failure in WvW, adding combat stat buffs to Outnumbered would fix so many problems.

In the last dev stream that previewed the Borderland changes, the dev speaking (sorry forgot his name) said that they couldn’t add combat stats to Outnumbered, because people would get mad when new players joined the map and they lost the buff. So say there is 20 people on map, and they have the Outnumbered buff, then a 21st player joins and they lose it. The dev thought for some reason that all civility would break down, and the 21 players would just start arguing about who should leave the map so they can get the buff back…

Ok, so how about this:

• EVERY player on EVERY team gets a “Hardened” buff
• This buff is permanent on every player in WvW, you can never lose it
• This buff is completely dynamic, and scales proportionally based on your server’s pop compared to the highest pop on map.
• If your server has the highest pop on map, the buff provides 0 stat increase
• If your server does not have the highest pop, you gain a buff equal to your pop ratio
• For example (these numbers are completely made up), if you are outnumbered 5:1 compared to the highest pop server, you gain something like a 20% all-stat buff. Outnumbered 4:1 = 15%, 3:1 = 10%, 1.275:1 = 5.75%, etc.
• This buff does not have “tiers” or any hard limits, it is completely fluid and updates frequently.

I have seen a system like this implemented in 2 other MMOs that have medium-to-large scale PVP, and it has such a profound effect, it’s amazing. It still allows for stat diversity and progression for each individual player, but equalizes the combat forces. If you are outnumbered 5:1 on your map, you still have a chance to make a difference, because each of your players is significantly more effective that the other team.

The only thing that would need to be tweaked is how strongly the buff scales (does a 5:1 outnumber equal a 10% stat increase, 20%, more? ), and how frequently it updates. Ideally, the buff would update whenever a player joined or left the server, on any team. It seems like that system is already in place for determining the Outnumbered buff, so it may not be very intensive to run that calculation each time.

If you want fair fights, you are going to have to provide some balancing mechanism. There will always be population imbalances, the best you can do is make an active attempt to balance the combat effectiveness of each team, regardless of pop.

Because the dev’s like to do things kitten -backwards.

Ya something about they didn’t want in game fighting/harassment on each maps between the lower pop servers to get the buff so instead they just pretty much gave it to the winning side because that makes alot more sense.

Yeah, I don’t understand the reasoning behind giving combat advantages to the winning team. You just widen the gap.

My idea from the OP is also reminiscent of the “catch-up” option that is sometimes available in racing games. Basically, anyone who is not in first place gets a speed buff, to help them stay in the race. That system has worked for years (if not decades) in that genre, and keeps things competitive right to the end.

Because if you’re the one dude who joins the Borderlands and causes everyone else to lose the bonus stats, everyone will start sending you nasty messages and telling you to leave so they can get their buff back. Any mechanic that encourages people to send you nasty messages is not really something that they’re going for.

Sarrs.4831:

Because if you’re the one dude who joins the Borderlands and causes everyone else to lose the bonus stats, everyone will start sending you nasty messages and telling you to leave so they can get their buff back. Any mechanic that encourages people to send you nasty messages is not really something that they’re going for.

Aww, how gullible you are, eating the kittens the anet staff feeds you. Just 2 things:
1 – They can make it so the buff disappears with 5-10 mins delay and reappears with 5-10 mins delay too, so this will be pointless… (and how will they know who is the reason they lost the buff btw, huh?)
2 – What about the points on stomp now? Wanna bet uplevels are being kitten talked to when someone sees one and they aren’t holding the bloodlust buff?

Pavel.8531:

Aww, how gullible you are, eating the kittens the anet staff feeds you. Just 2 things:
1 – They can make it so the buff disappears with 5-10 mins delay and reappears with 5-10 mins delay too, so this will be pointless… (and how will they know who is the reason they lost the buff btw, huh?)
2 – What about the points on stomp now? Wanna bet uplevels are being kitten talked to when someone sees one and they aren’t holding the bloodlust buff?

1a. Er. Can they? What makes you think they can?
b. They don’t need to know who did it. All they have to say is “which one of you kittens made us lose the buff” in mapchat (and if the stat difference is actually meaningful, everyone on the map will do this) and any newbie who was previously interested in the game is suddenly turned off by a huge spike of negativity directed at them. The game already has enough of a problem with getting new blood.
2. I never said I liked Bloodlust.

Thanks for assuming I’m kissing Devon’s kitten ?… There’s something like two things that I agree with him on.

I don’t care what they say. Any commander knows boots on the ground is worth more than a buff. No one in WvW is gonna get kitten ed because they finally have enough players. And I agree that the delay of 10 minutes could work fine.

Entropy.4732:

I don’t care what they say. Any commander knows boots on the ground is worth more than a buff. No one in WvW is gonna get kitten ed because they finally have enough players. And I agree that the delay of 10 minutes could work fine.

I agree that more players would solve most issues. But with 3 servers in each match, and 8 tiers of matchs, it’s impossible to have an even match at every tier. There’s no way to solve the population issue…but ANet could at least do something to help the situation.

And if the buff was implemented as I describe in the OP (always on, no matter what, and provides a completely dynamic buff based on current populations), you wouldn’t have any griefing concerns. One person would only change the buff like 0.1%, one way or the other.

If ANet was really paranoid about some kind of grief issue, they could even hide the values of the buff completely. Don’t show any numbers on the buff icon, and don’t show any changes to stats in character sheets. I don’t think that is necessary, but there are options available.

I am against any form of stat boost. Outmanned should solve the core of the problem by giving the outmanned server more npcs to help them defend and attack. A few champions and veterans would be great. Imagine attacking a keep with the Aetherblade pirates as your allies. Heck let’s Scarlett be our commander. lol

because devon knows best

“Why doesn’t Outnumbered increase stats?”

Because that would take common sense, foresight &/or reading the dozens of threads pointing out how idiotic giving the winning zervers even more of a buff, which the devs have decided to completely ignore.

it still remains one of the biggest mysteries of the game…

Doon.2364:

I am against any form of stat boost. Outmanned should solve the core of the problem by giving the outmanned server more npcs to help them defend and attack. A few champions and veterans would be great. Imagine attacking a keep with the Aetherblade pirates as your allies. Heck let’s Scarlett be our commander. lol

NPCs are a cool idea, but I dunno how effective they would be, or if the server could handle them. And how would you control where they went? They wouldn’t be very effective if they moved at Siegerazer’s pace, and just walked from tower to tower.

Silly OP! Making the outnumbered buff meaningful would not PUNISH the server with the lower population and we are all quite well aware of the fact that WvW mechanics are meant to punish the weaker server for not having the people. AOE limit? Ha take that weaker server! Timers on swords appearing? Ha! We will be through the gate and in the Lord’s Room before they know what hit them while they are all at that other keep! Bloodlust buff? Oh, I have a good one, let us give the stronger force a buff so those weaklings can get rotflstomped!

If your server cannot field adequate forces to fill maps in WvW You WILL be punished!

I suppose I do not have to qualify the above as blatant sarcasm!

More live players are going to be worth more than a stats buff, so I don’t buy the devs comment about people yelling at each other to get off the map. Not unless those players care only to have 1v1 dueling advantage and have no care for the intention of the mode, and someone like that doesn’t have a worthy opinion anyway.

The alternative and what we have right now is far worse than what is envisioned above, and that is a slow drip drip evacuation of lower servers to higher tier servers as everyone stacks on the already overpopulated servers in order to secure the better buffs and to win at the same time.

This will kill the game far faster than any wild fears about people actually wanting to be outmanned just to get a buff. Extra stats won’t help an outmanned side defend multiple positions on a map, it won’t help them have enough men to man all the siege to properly defend a structure. It wont secure camps and supply routes.

20 guys, buffed or not, are not going to overcome a map with 60 because they simply can’t be in enough places at once, even if they could somehow through skill and the buff defeat all those players at once. All the buff is going to do is give them a little better chance, and more fun underdog experience, instead of them getting slaughtered even if they run into even numbers of an opponent that already has 3x their numbers on map, due to the bigger side also having mass statistical advantages.

Right now WvW is like one of those wrestling matches where one guy’s side rushes in a gang of people from the locker room to beat down their opponent. And Bloodlust only compounds it, like saying to the gang, “Here, its already 5 v 1, but why not have some steel chairs to beat them down even more!”

The outnumbered buff is meh, and personally I don’t care. I guess the wxp bonus is ok.
Giving +15o to all stats on the zergy/winning servers on the other hand, is a game ruining experience.