Guild Wars 2

Hopefully Anet can answer this or someone can point me in the direction of a post that answers this. I will put out a guess that 5 was used since sPvP is 5v5, so there is no reason to have it unlimited. This breaks in WvW and even PvE.

Can we have the limit removed? If not removed, how about raised? This will help with many situations, most importantly for me (WvW) is the mesmer portal bomb.

It was actually implemented later than sPvP. It’s to limit the damage output of AoE versus zerg’s. Basically having 5 guys who can wipe 20 on a spike was frowned upon (as funny as it is).

Which inadvertently led to solidifying the need for a zerg & numbers to be a success factor in wvw. No one can justly argue the skill factor versus the numbers = win and threads pop up about it all the time.

boneduste.4023:

Hopefully Anet can answer this or someone can point me in the direction of a post that answers this. I will put out a guess that 5 was used since sPvP is 5v5, so there is no reason to have it unlimited. This breaks in WvW and even PvE.

Can we have the limit removed? If not removed, how about raised? This will help with many situations, most importantly for me (WvW) is the mesmer portal bomb.

To be completely honest i’d rather have a limit of 5 than let 1 elementalist and necromancer deathshroud drain *facepalm steamroll an entire zerg
Seige is not limited
Mesmer portal bomb breaks WvW because of culling and turtling (thank god that was fixed

Here here to that one but you’ve also forgot to add the main reason for the AoE limit and that is Anet’s inability to stop the bots and this is their lazy way of limiting the damage full AoE bot farming would do.
Please Anet make AoE skills in WvW fully unlimited and bring back the balanced gaming you so vehemently advertise, because at the moment the only balance we are seeing is in your bank balance

and @ Predator.7321
Bud 1 Ele or Necro doing AoE’s against a whole zerg won’t change a thing if they learn to dodge and use their brains than follow ma leader Turtles that are only their to farm the karma, as I’ve seen it meany times that there are loads just running with the crowd and not even doing any skills

Predator.7321:

boneduste.4023:

Hopefully Anet can answer this or someone can point me in the direction of a post that answers this. I will put out a guess that 5 was used since sPvP is 5v5, so there is no reason to have it unlimited. This breaks in WvW and even PvE.

Can we have the limit removed? If not removed, how about raised? This will help with many situations, most importantly for me (WvW) is the mesmer portal bomb.

To be completely honest i’d rather have a limit of 5 than let 1 elementalist and necromancer deathshroud drain *facepalm steamroll an entire zerg
Seige is not limited
Mesmer portal bomb breaks WvW because of culling and turtling (thank god that was fixed

If you spread out and don’t turtle, removing the AoE limit will not crush an entire zerg since there is a radius limit on all AoE attacks. It will crush the dozens of people who huddle together using the % to their advantage (hoping they are not one of the 5).

Predator.7321:

Mesmer portal bomb breaks WvW because of culling and turtling (thank god that was fixed

Changing any abilities because of culling is poor practice. Culling should be fixed prior to class skills and abilities. Stop breaking classes because of a fault in the games ability to display graphics in a timely manner.

Predator.7321:

To be completely honest i’d rather have a limit of 5 than let 1 elementalist and necromancer deathshroud drain *facepalm steamroll an entire zerg
Seige is not limited

Small AoEs taking out 5 or more huddled players = stupid huddled players, smart AoE usage.
Don’t arrow carts have a 5 target limit?

Basically, AoE should affect everything in the area. This allows 1 smart person to disrupt a mindless non-tactical group = disrupting large portal bombs, large turtling groups, and clustered zergs.

boneduste.4023:

If you spread out and don’t turtle, removing the AoE limit will not crush an entire zerg since there is a radius limit on all AoE attacks. It will crush the dozens of people who huddle together using the % to their advantage (hoping they are not one of the 5).

You cannot stay spread all time. If AOE cap will be removed, then 5 ele + 5 necro will easily be able to completely lock any breached gate/wall with aoe, making impossible to pass by.

And eles make up for that by being incredibly easy to kill. They totally neutered staff for ele.

Rednik.3809:

boneduste.4023:

If you spread out and don’t turtle, removing the AoE limit will not crush an entire zerg since there is a radius limit on all AoE attacks. It will crush the dozens of people who huddle together using the % to their advantage (hoping they are not one of the 5).

You cannot stay spread all time. If AOE cap will be removed, then 5 ele + 5 necro will easily be able to completely lock any breached gate/wall with aoe, making impossible to pass by.

Then use a different tactic.
And impossible doesn’t sound right, surely people can think of ways to outsmart such a simple thing – change tactical focus, jump attacks, multiple breaches, dodge, etc.
“Up the guts with heaps of smoke” is not the only way to fight a battle.

Rednik.3809:

boneduste.4023:

If you spread out and don’t turtle, removing the AoE limit will not crush an entire zerg since there is a radius limit on all AoE attacks. It will crush the dozens of people who huddle together using the % to their advantage (hoping they are not one of the 5).

You cannot stay spread all time. If AOE cap will be removed, then 5 ele + 5 necro will easily be able to completely lock any breached gate/wall with aoe, making impossible to pass by.

Then you can possibly use a portal to push a small group in and push the back line or , thieves sneak through the front and attack, which would give you room in the front to push. THAT is tactics. ‘Exploiting’ the fact that AoE can only affect 5 targets simply reinforces zerg mentality.

I will take having a multiple-front, complex game, over zerg tactics any day.

it was because of the party size, that was the argument i saw from a designer in an interview

in the other hand was designed too for the people who ‘’cant stay out of the fire’’
arguments such ‘’for make five people not able to beat 20’’ is delusional, if those 20 guys cant stay out of the rain OR if those 20 guys CANT outaoe them with 4x the numbers, giggles me.

If AOE limit was removed or increased for damage, the ally-buff and heal limit should also increase accordingly for parity. Then everyone will start running bunker retaliation builds.

It’s a complicated problem.

Telegraph.7509:

If AOE limit was removed or increased for damage, the ally-buff and heal limit should also increase accordingly for parity. Then everyone will start running bunker retaliation builds.

It’s a complicated problem.

It’s not complicated. I said nothing about increased dmg, I said remove the AoE limit.

boneduste.4023:

Telegraph.7509:

If AOE limit was removed or increased for damage, the ally-buff and heal limit should also increase accordingly for parity. Then everyone will start running bunker retaliation builds.

It’s a complicated problem.

It’s not complicated. I said nothing about increased dmg, I said remove the AoE limit.

Neither did I, but I think I worded it poorly. I meant to say if the AOE limit was increased or removed for skills that do damage.

If you ever played Warhammer Online you’d know why an AoE limit is needed. 5 bright wizards could insta-gib any unfortunate soul that happened to be standing in a certain location. In 50+ vs 50+ battles, if half your army were bright wizards or sorceresses you’d continually be melted into the face of the earth if you were anywhere near the front lines… And WAR had healing classes to help mitigate the damage, and they couldn’t keep you alive. How the hell do you expect to survive with no healers at all?

People will say “Yeah but DAoC didn’t either”. Well here’s the thing with that. DAoC didn’t have many players. Even in it’s absolute peak, you’d never see more then 30 players roaming together. In the new age of gaming, everybody is playing MMOs now. Games have a minimum of half a million players. This ain’t 2002.

Telegraph.7509:

If AOE limit was removed or increased for damage, the ally-buff and heal limit should also increase accordingly for parity. Then everyone will start running bunker retaliation builds.

It’s a complicated problem.

AoE is AoE. AoE heal (or anything AoE) should do the area.
Not complicated. Anet code it – we deal with it, tactics change, people adapt.

Retaliation builds – no tactic to combat it?

Rottaran Owain.6789:

Rhyis.7058:

If you ever played Warhammer Online you’d know why an AoE limit is needed. 5 bright wizards could insta-gib any unfortunate soul that happened to be standing in a certain location. In 50+ vs 50+ battles, if half your army were bright wizards or sorceresses you’d continually be melted into the face of the earth if you were anywhere near the front lines… And WAR had healing classes to help mitigate the damage, and they couldn’t keep you alive. How the hell do you expect to survive with no healers at all?

People will say “Yeah but DAoC didn’t either”. Well here’s the thing with that. DAoC didn’t have many players. Even in it’s absolute peak, you’d never see more then 30 players roaming together. In the new age of gaming, everybody is playing MMOs now. Games have a minimum of half a million players. This ain’t 2002.

Pretty much this.

Pretty much what? The first game that isnt GW2 or the second game that isnt GW2?

The use of tactics in a battle/war is very important. Lets not g i m p tactics.
The one person holding off a massing enemy is possible, in the real world and the fantasy world. The few against the many can work, unless it is purely a numbers game.

Suun.2856:

Pretty much what? The first game that isnt GW2 or the second game that isnt GW2?

The use of tactics in a battle/war is very important. Lets not g i m p tactics.
The one person holding off a massing enemy is possible, in the real world and the fantasy world. The few against the many can work, unless it is purely a numbers game.

What does insta-gibbing players with auto attacks have to do with tactics? It’s the exact kitten opposite of tactics. It promotes facerolling more then there already is.

I for one am against the promotion of facerolling.

I’d love to see how fast people who want unlimited-cap AE would make a 180 change in opinion once 5-man perma-stealth cluster bomb thief squads start roaming around.

Rhyis.7058:

If you ever played Warhammer Online you’d know why an AoE limit is needed. 5 bright wizards could insta-gib any unfortunate soul that happened to be standing in a certain location. In 50+ vs 50+ battles, if half your army were bright wizards or sorceresses you’d continually be melted into the face of the earth if you were anywhere near the front lines… And WAR had healing classes to help mitigate the damage, and they couldn’t keep you alive. How the hell do you expect to survive with no healers at all?

People will say “Yeah but DAoC didn’t either”. Well here’s the thing with that. DAoC didn’t have many players. Even in it’s absolute peak, you’d never see more then 30 players roaming together. In the new age of gaming, everybody is playing MMOs now. Games have a minimum of half a million players. This ain’t 2002.

I played WarHammer Online for many years. In that game there were issues of balance, because you had one set of characters (order) fighting a totally separate set of characters (chaos). GW2 doesn’t have that as you have the exact same character classes/races available to both sides. Also damage mitigation was complicated. You had mitigation against magic, physical, elemental. You had totally separate block/dodge/disrupt mechanics and investing in one was at the expense of others. In this game EVERYONE can dodge with a keystroke, WH Online if I was a choppa, I had 0 evade capability, which means ranged ALWAYS hit.

Apples-to-Oranges.

Tulisin.6945:

I’d love to see how fast people who want unlimited-cap AE would make a 180 change in opinion once 5-man perma-stealth cluster bomb thief squads start roaming around.

I think people would prefer being able to defend against portal bombs than to worry about getting 5 thieves with that specific build roaming around.

I agree this game could have the cap raised without many issues. I wouldn’t argue to make it unlimited because I still have nightmares about sorc/bw ramp defense.

@Rhyis: Daoc had 200+ man zergs, you didn’t play at peak or even a year or two after peak if you only saw 30. That said, ranged aoe required a target and while gtaoe was in the game, it ignored los and was very very weak compared to any other damage in the game.

I quit whenever ToA hit, which was the destruction of RvR imo.

Sure, when AoEs stop doing more damage than single target abilities, I’m game for that.

jkctmc.8754:

Sure, when AoEs stop doing more damage than single target abilities, I’m game for that.

That is a weak argument. Unless you are in a zerg there is a guarantee you will be affected by AoE, so why limit the damage? You are looking to exploit the chance that you won’t be one of the ones chosen when dozens of people sit on the same spot.

Let’s not forget the ability for nearly all, if not all, classes to cleanse some, if not all, conditions on you at some point.

boneduste.4023:

Tulisin.6945:

I’d love to see how fast people who want unlimited-cap AE would make a 180 change in opinion once 5-man perma-stealth cluster bomb thief squads start roaming around.

I think people would prefer being able to defend against portal bombs than to worry about getting 5 thieves with that specific build roaming around.

“Hey, you, equip a shortbow and throw Shadow Refuge on your utility bar” isn’t exactly a specific build. Permastealth is easy with no bells and whistles if you’re talking about a group of thieves. This is pretty much the only reason I’d be in favor of this change, insta-downing/finishing large groups of unsuspecting people forming up to go somewhere, building some siege, attacking an NPC, etc, would be a hoot.

Siege should NOT (!) have the 5 target limit, but players should. Also Siege should be cheaper and easyer to build. Make em more fearsome.

Whould also fix the zerg “problem”.

MysticoN.5068:

Siege should NOT (!) have the 5 target limit, but players should. Also Siege should be cheaper and easyer to build. Make em more fearsome.

Whould also fix the zerg “problem”.

Why should players have the limit, but not siege?

All these limitations on AoE effects in general, feel like shortcuts and band-aids for other issues.

I don’t know why people who play this game feel they need to have things go so firmly ‘their way’ and do not want to adapt to the game mechanics. “Having 5 guys who can wipe 20 on a spike” is not in itself a problem. Whiny players who don’t want to have to have situational awareness and somehow want PVP to be a series of balanced 1v1s and want to ignore group dynamics no matter how many players are on the battlefield, is.

boneduste.4023:

MysticoN.5068:

Siege should NOT (!) have the 5 target limit, but players should. Also Siege should be cheaper and easyer to build. Make em more fearsome.

Whould also fix the zerg “problem”.

Why should players have the limit, but not siege?

To stop makeing small aoe focused groups roam around owning zergs. Its going to make this forum a huge whine spot.

That also going to make it a hell for the Dev to balance.

Siege on the other hand, A treb hitting 100 ppl and only hurt 5 is kinda strange. Changeing siege is going to force zerges to split up in groups and start cordinate. Like it is now it takes 2 min to take a upgraded keep and its almost imposible to defend.

I LOL’d when an enemy’s treb/cata throw a rock to my face but I received NO DMG

this is something i never was sure at the start.

if 1 elementalist use meteor shower, at same time or may be not same time another one do the same, in the same place, this means there will be two meteor showers, would this mean 1 rain will hit 5 people max and the other one will hit another 5 max?

or

the rain will be like if it was one single rain? like if one meteor shower wasnt casted at all.

oh btw iam with the people who say: aoe is aoe, if you dont move from the rain, you deserve to lay down, however does anybody know the answer from my question? because sometimes i feel my meteor shower isnt doing damage when theres another one

Rhyis.7058:

If you ever played Warhammer Online you’d know why an AoE limit is needed. 5 bright wizards could insta-gib any unfortunate soul that happened to be standing in a certain location. In 50+ vs 50+ battles, if half your army were bright wizards or sorceresses you’d continually be melted into the face of the earth if you were anywhere near the front lines… And WAR had healing classes to help mitigate the damage, and they couldn’t keep you alive. How the hell do you expect to survive with no healers at all?

People will say “Yeah but DAoC didn’t either”. Well here’s the thing with that. DAoC didn’t have many players. Even in it’s absolute peak, you’d never see more then 30 players roaming together. In the new age of gaming, everybody is playing MMOs now. Games have a minimum of half a million players. This ain’t 2002.

Even preToA daoc had large zergs. 100+ people (not even counting 8mans) nearly daily. I saw 400+ guard spam multiple times, although rare. AE was never game breaking. Even when a pbae bomb wiped 50+ people it was fine, because most of the time those 50 people were huddled up and not paying attention. The limit is just laziness and reinforces the zerg.
Ps Posting on these forums is the only thing that has ever caused my mobile browser to crash, ever, in 3years.

What about some sort of damage scaling for 5+X targets? That way your AoE’s effectiveness isn’t directly correlated to the number of people (and charr) you’re hitting. I know a couple other MMO’s have used this system (unfortunately, WoW comes to mind). I’m sure we could talk all night about how diluted a skill should be for however many people, but maybe it’s worth a shot. It could always be tweaked. Plus, DD might go down, but conditions would probably have to go off on everyone in the AoE… thus giving condi builds more viability in WvW.

Siege on the other hand, shouldn’t have any such cap.

apparently people are unable to move out of aoes

how about we try and let them fix current issues before adding more issues for them to try and tackle.

removing aoe target limit for certain seige might be nice but i would say not for arrow carts. there has been passages/tunnels where theres is only 1 way in and there was so many AC constantly barraging the area u cant even get a stealth mesmer to sneak in. they dont stop just because no one appears to be charging the passage and just standing outside. they only stop after they pushed everyone out of the area. would have been impossible if those AC are unlimited target
and no, the ac was out of direct LoS and ballistas cant hit. enclosed area, no cata/treb hittable.

@SuiRyuJin.4615

This is a issue.

Because new school players are too big of kittens to accept proper resource management as part of play style. We don’t wanna wait, or conserve. We want is all now.

So instead of a power or mana limit to curb your AOE form being a permenently unstoppable force you have cooldowns and target caps. Note I’m not talking a Wowesque theoretical mana limit I’m talking a DAOCesque hardcore power limit.

While I understand the need for cap, five is an odd number to set. For one, it’s below the spvp max of 8v8. As for wvw, it’s really low.

People still compare GW2 to others games, thats nots facts thats comparisons…

The only thing i have to say about the 5 limit is:

-SO a zerg cant wait untill the Aoe efect ends, the skill is on cooldown and you advance? if you cant maybe you need to use your brin more…

Now even against arrow carts theres always something to do:
- Stability, protection and your mesmer with a blink skill to place the portal?
-Guardians hmmm i think they have some skills to reflect stuff and things like that? ^^

The thing is if they remove teh aoe limit the yes things would be more strategical

Why is everyone forgetting the reflect skill some classes have all they have to do is pop that on and the player doing the AoE will go down faster than Paris Hiltons Knickers.
Sorry but peeps saying that making AoE fully unlimited would kill of WvW hasn’t looked into what skills there are to counter the AoE.
But then all people are bothered about in WvW is the Karma farming not the skill of really playing WvW to it’s fullest and the way it was originally designed to be played.
added to this rant is the fact that Ele’s are tied to one weapon and don’t have the the option to switch mid battle unless the have their inventory open all the time as well as the Hero page to drag weapons into it.
In short the Ele is the weakest class to play in WvW as most of their skills are AoE based even the CD ones

How about doubling the limit to 10 in WvW maps only?

TBH, the limit of 5 on AOE’s is kitten Technically there shouldn’t be a problem letting people hit on a whole zerg if they’re huddled up. Learn to spread out and anticipate if an enemy force is planning to setup a timed aoe assault. Although to allow people to spread out anet needs to allow peeps to attack gates at ALL corners of the gate and not merely the middle of that gate.

Why were AOE assaults dangerous in DAoC (sorry, never bothered with WH cause i expected failure there)? Cause along with aoe damage, there were also stationary aoe CC, the only aoe CC you have in GW2 are fears (which make you scatter by default) or a short duration knockdown. In DAoC you had a minute mezz, that made it so you couldn’t evade the damage until it was being thrown on you or in midgard’s case an aoe stun that made it so you couldn’t even run after they started tossing it on you.

If you see yourself being damaged, learn to dodge away and they won’t be able to kill you. This 5 man limit is only anet showing they want to defend dumb players who are too braindead to avoid getting hit (see it as the peeps that stood in fires in WoW raids)

JemL.3501:

this is something i never was sure at the start.

if 1 elementalist use meteor shower, at same time or may be not same time another one do the same, in the same place, this means there will be two meteor showers, would this mean 1 rain will hit 5 people max and the other one will hit another 5 max?

or

the rain will be like if it was one single rain? like if one meteor shower wasnt casted at all.

oh btw iam with the people who say: aoe is aoe, if you dont move from the rain, you deserve to lay down, however does anybody know the answer from my question? because sometimes i feel my meteor shower isnt doing damage when theres another one

Again, this is an educated guess. Each of the meteor showers has a center and a radius. When it is cast, the system determines the 5 closest players to the center of EACH cast. If both happen to cast the center on top of one another, then the system has a good chance of picking the same 5 targets to hit.

Klawlyt.6507:

What about some sort of damage scaling for 5+X targets? That way your AoE’s effectiveness isn’t directly correlated to the number of people (and charr) you’re hitting. I know a couple other MMO’s have used this system (unfortunately, WoW comes to mind). I’m sure we could talk all night about how diluted a skill should be for however many people, but maybe it’s worth a shot. It could always be tweaked. Plus, DD might go down, but conditions would probably have to go off on everyone in the AoE… thus giving condi builds more viability in WvW.

Siege on the other hand, shouldn’t have any such cap.

There is no need for dmg scaling as it is already pre-determined in the skill. I can hit a potentially unlimited number of people in a specific radius. The dmg of the skill and the radial limit are what prevents a single person from taking out an entire zerg. What it will do is make the zerg dynamic change from a flock of birds following a commander tag, to a bunch of organized groups working to a common goal.

Ralathar.7236:

Because new school players are too big of kittens to accept proper resource management as part of play style. We don’t wanna wait, or conserve. We want is all now.

So instead of a power or mana limit to curb your AOE form being a permenently unstoppable force you have cooldowns and target caps. Note I’m not talking a Wowesque theoretical mana limit I’m talking a DAOCesque hardcore power limit.

What style of resource management are you talking about? I am talking about having 40 people banging at a door and the best I can do is hit 5 of them. Oh and by the way if there are 5 pets at the door, then I hit NO ONE. That’s just ludicrous. I have yet to see an AoE drop a person who was paying attention. As soon as you see the red circle you make a decision; “Do I stay in the circle and finish whatever I was doing or do I hop out”. Right now most people don’t even pay attention to the circle because they think “I won’t be the one who gets hit, I’ve got 10 people right next to me”.

Because this game caters to bads. Its watered down pvp lite for babies. A pointless carebear kittenfest.

zastari.1730:

How about doubling the limit to 10 in WvW maps only?

It just pushes the issue farther out, meaning I just need to have 20 people to make it ineffective. If you make it unlimited then people have to take AoE into consideration. Right now, I bust down a wall and if I have enough people you just rush through, because even if the area is covered with AoE, you take your chances that you won’t get hit. This makes AoE less of a deterrent and more of an annoyance.

I agree is should be removed.

As far as i’m aware AC’s dont have a 5 target restriction. I’m sure when i fire an arrow cart into a cluster i got a whitewash of damage numbers. I’m sure ballista also hits more than 5 targets.