Guild Wars 2

jkctmc.8754:

Sure, when AoEs stop doing more damage than single target abilities, I’m game for that.

Many of those “AoE’s doing more damage than single target abilities” are channels that require the caster to stand there for the full cast, out in the naked reach of the enemy, to get it off. Meteor Shower takes 3.25sec of channeling cast….a Mesmer with Focus #4 can pull the Ele off to both interrupt and get them into the group to kill (so can a Thief with Scorpion Wire, and an Engineer with Magnetic Pull off their Tool Kit utility). Not only is that one thing, but it’s also random hit inside the radius of the effect, where the ‘ball drops’ is where it damages…which is more of an RNG system with the spell than anything.

Even without consideration of that one spell, other AoE’s have issues of a delay result or are channeled as well. Dragons Tooth hovers there for a while and it’s an obvious “take a step right to avoid”, same goes for dropping the ice shard from the sky. A Ranger’s longbow ability is the same issue as Meteor Shower.

Ralathar.7236:

Because new school players are too big of kittens to accept proper resource management as part of play style. We don’t wanna wait, or conserve. We want is all now.

So instead of a power or mana limit to curb your AOE form being a permenently unstoppable force you have cooldowns and target caps. Note I’m not talking a Wowesque theoretical mana limit I’m talking a DAOCesque hardcore power limit.

But the problem with this games is they were mechanics to drag out the fight: artificial limitations against the player. What I mean is would you rather be in a fight and keep fighting until the enemy is dead (or you are), or would you rather cast 2-5 spells then head to the far back behind the front line and sit and drink water/eat food for 30sec-1min? To have to do 5 minutes -1hr of prep before actually doing something in the game that’s enjoyable is not fun, it’s work. This is a game and not work.

Kso.6458:

Because this game caters to bads. Its watered down pvp lite for babies. A pointless carebear kittenfest.

Well certainly allowing anyone that can faceroll onto their AOE button to kill everyone in a group would be catering only to the most skilled of players.

Siphaed.9235:

jkctmc.8754:

Sure, when AoEs stop doing more damage than single target abilities, I’m game for that.

Many of those “AoE’s doing more damage than single target abilities” are channels that require the caster to stand there for the full cast, out in the naked reach of the enemy, to get it off. Meteor Shower takes 3.25sec of channeling cast….a Mesmer with Focus #4 can pull the Ele off to both interrupt and get them into the group to kill (so can a Thief with Scorpion Wire, and an Engineer with Magnetic Pull off their Tool Kit utility). Not only is that one thing, but it’s also random hit inside the radius of the effect, where the ‘ball drops’ is where it damages…which is more of an RNG system with the spell than anything.

Even without consideration of that one spell, other AoE’s have issues of a delay result or are channeled as well. Dragons Tooth hovers there for a while and it’s an obvious “take a step right to avoid”, same goes for dropping the ice shard from the sky. A Ranger’s longbow ability is the same issue as Meteor Shower.

While this is true of some AE abilities, it only takes one or two that aren’t to create a bad situation wherein a small group and swiftly nuke down an unlimited number of people in a small area. Thief cluster bomb, for instance, can not only be fired without any kind of channel, but can be fired from stealth and the stealth won’t even drop until the projectiles land.

Siphaed.9235:

Ralathar.7236:

Because new school players are too big of kittens to accept proper resource management as part of play style. We don’t wanna wait, or conserve. We want is all now.

So instead of a power or mana limit to curb your AOE form being a permenently unstoppable force you have cooldowns and target caps. Note I’m not talking a Wowesque theoretical mana limit I’m talking a DAOCesque hardcore power limit.

But the problem with this games is they were mechanics to drag out the fight: artificial limitations against the player. What I mean is would you rather be in a fight and keep fighting until the enemy is dead (or you are), or would you rather cast 2-5 spells then head to the far back behind the front line and sit and drink water/eat food for 30sec-1min? To have to do 5 minutes -1hr of prep before actually doing something in the game that’s enjoyable is not fun, it’s work. This is a game and not work.

You obviously never played DAOC. Point was you didn’t just randomly spam stuff. You placed it well and people died. Battles didn’t last long at all unless there was a standoff where both sides were too afraid to properly commit, and that still happens here all the time.

I won’t go into specifics with you on it because you are plainly not in a position to understand how that game works having never experienced it. Suffice to say even with such harsh restriction cloth casters were FEARED and either they or the healer were the first target in every fight because of their power.

People whining about elementalist AOE limitations plainly do not know how to properly chain their AOE abilities or use Armor of earth to ensure they get to unload the entire chain. I can easily unload 4-8 AOE’s in a row most times. The initial AOE’s cover your application of the others if done right.

Yes it entails some risk, but with proper timing the risk is lowl. With group coordination the risk is minimal. With vapor form instantly available that risk is even less. This of course requires that you know when to get out of dodge, you don’t ALWAYS complete the AOE chain, just most of the time.

people seem to forget that in DAOC AE damage spells could a) only be casted while standing still, b) had base casting time of 2.5 – 3 seconds, c) were interupted if you took damage, d) had AE-dropoff (reduction in damage the further of the center of the target/cast).

and yes a handfull of AE damage specialist casters with some suport could wipe zergs. it was not common, but it was always spectacular to do/experience, or read in area chat :p

… and only 30 people fights, lol. “a guard was kill at Bledmeer Faste with 500 enemies in the area”.

It is a rather pointless mechanic. Perhaps it came about with good intentions (making balance easier), all it did was encourage turtling and bigger more mindless zergs.

Also, it can be extremely frustrating at times. You know what it feels like for a Guardian to channel Tome of Courage 5 for a full party heal in a dungeon… and then a thieves guild/illusion/pet to take a full heal leaving party members dangerously low on HP?… it doesn’t feel good.

If you see everyone travelling in a big clump in any other game you would think that they are stupid… and proceed to kill them all with AoE for being such dummies. Why are those that spread out, or fight in smaller numbers punished so harshly? It doesn’t make sense.

boneduste.4023:

MysticoN.5068:

Siege should NOT (!) have the 5 target limit, but players should. Also Siege should be cheaper and easyer to build. Make em more fearsome.

Whould also fix the zerg “problem”.

Why should players have the limit, but not siege?

Why? An arrow cart, for instance, costs 6 silver or, I think it is, 6 badges. It takes three trips to supply (or three people with supply) to build it (two if supply carry is boosted to 15). It goes away on its own if not used, and can be destroyed even by an occassional passerby dropping AoE on a wall without even seeing. It cannot be moved or repaired, and even a moderate size attack force can destroy all the siege on the walls within the first 10 seconds of a fight. If the asset is taken, then the enemy will destroy it.

By contrast, the only cost to a player for casting his skills is if he is killed, which can be avoided. The cost of armor and weapons does not count because those same armor and weapons are used to make more than enough money/karma/tokens to pay for themselves. They are not destroyed and never simply vanish. You don’t have to make supply runs to build them, and they are present even if you show up to location where there is no supply. If one spot is too dangerous to stand in and attack from, you can easily move to another postion and cast from there. Likewise, since you are mobile and siege is not, if the enemy is out of range or moves, you can move to where they can be attacked.

Either way, asking why players should have an AoE limit while siege does not is like asking why Keep walls can take several minutes of pounding from a cat or trebuchet when a player gets killed in just a few hits by them. The answer is simple. You are not a fortress, and you are not a siege engine. You are not supposed to have the same capabilities.

No, just NO, I could see for instance 2 D/D Eles , and say 2 Warrior and a Guardian (5 people) wiping unlimited people simply by being the initiator of a fight, Knockdowns would totally own and coordinated there is no moving out of the AoE. Engineer Bright Wizard from Warhammer comes to mind real quick. I’m sure some other class combos would be as good or better but those 3 could keep a whole group on their backs a long time. There are no CC diminishing returns in this game either.

AoE cap is stupid. If it would be removed the zergfest would actually be cut down. People would play smarter. The game would be more enjoyable.

Vataire.8302:

No, just NO, I could see for instance 2 D/D Eles , and say 2 Warrior and a Guardian (5 people) wiping unlimited people simply by being the initiator of a fight, Knockdowns would totally own and coordinated there is no moving out of the AoE. Engineer Bright Wizard from Warhammer comes to mind real quick. I’m sure some other class combos would be as good or better but those 3 could keep a whole group on their backs a long time. There are no CC diminishing returns in this game either.

Then maybe those zerglings should all be standing on top of each other.

They deserve to get utterly destroyed by AoE. I can’t think of any other game or genre that has this sort of AoE cap mechanic, and it never seems to be a problem in other games.

xxxzavulonxxx.8413:

AoE cap is stupid. If it would be removed the zergfest would actually be cut down. People would play smarter. The game would be more enjoyable.

I see Zergs wiped by AOE every night as it is, I can only imagine the devestation with no cap. But hey I have all 3 classes I mentioned in my last post so go for it, but mark my words the game would suffer greatly. Warhammer and Bright Wizards has shown what can happen when AOE is too powerful. I know alot of people that quit that game just because of it.

Vataire.8302:

I see Zergs wiped by AOE every night as it is, I can only imagine the devestation with no cap. But hey I have all 3 classes I mentioned in my last post so go for it, but mark my words the game would suffer greatly. Warhammer and Bright Wizards has shown what can happen when AOE is too powerful. I know alot of people that quit that game just because of it.

Those zergs that get wiped by AoE aren’t properly abusing the mechanics. If they would simply stand on top of each other (thereby taking advantage of the AoE cap) they would be much safer. Throw in a bunch of healing as well and there is your zerg that is not phased by AoE.

Massive groups die to AoE when they spread out (like common sense would tell you to do when dealing with AoE). Rather than avoiding the AoE, spreading out and trying to avoid the AoE actually focuses more of the AoE effects and damage on you.

The AoE cap will not effect big zergs that are spread out, it only effects the ones that are very concentrated… which which completely defies common sense.

Switched away from shout-heal build due to 5-traget cap. Switched away from AoE-DD build due to low dps.

Please Anet, cap both at 10 to make those builds viable again!

Surbrus.6942:

Vataire.8302:

I see Zergs wiped by AOE every night as it is, I can only imagine the devestation with no cap. But hey I have all 3 classes I mentioned in my last post so go for it, but mark my words the game would suffer greatly. Warhammer and Bright Wizards has shown what can happen when AOE is too powerful. I know alot of people that quit that game just because of it.

Those zergs that get wiped by AoE aren’t properly abusing the mechanics. If they would simply stand on top of each other (thereby taking advantage of the AoE cap) they would be much safer. Throw in a bunch of healing as well and there is your zerg that is not phased by AoE.

Massive groups die to AoE when they spread out (like common sense would tell you to do when dealing with AoE). Rather than avoiding the AoE, spreading out and trying to avoid the AoE actually focuses more of the AoE effects and damage on you.

The AoE cap will not effect big zergs that are spread out, it only effects the ones that are very concentrated… which which completely defies common sense.

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Lets use an example with you using your aoe skills on a zerg. You use your first aoe and it hits 4 people, but guess what, the zerg was spread out. You use your second aoe, it hits 3 people. Those 2 aoe skills you used were on a spread out zerg.

Now its time for you to use aoe on a zerg thats standing on top of each other. You use aoe #1, it hits 5 people. Then aoe #2 hits 5 people.

Its the same…wait a second…

“Those zergs that get wiped by AoE aren’t properly abusing the mechanics. If they would simply stand on top of each other (thereby taking advantage of the AoE cap) they would be much safer”

….yep you are right, standing on top of each other sure does make it safer (thats what you wanted me to say right?)

So in reality, a zerg that stands on top of each other is much easier to kill even with the much needed 5 player cap on aoe.

ShadowSoljer.6524:

So in reality, a zerg that stands on top of each other is much easier to kill even with the much needed 5 player cap on aoe.

No, because then boon / regen / healing AoE will hit all 5 players as well. The cap just turns things into a battle of statistics.

zastari.1730:

ShadowSoljer.6524:

So in reality, a zerg that stands on top of each other is much easier to kill even with the much needed 5 player cap on aoe.

No, because then boon / regen / healing AoE will hit all 5 players as well. The cap just turns things into a battle of statistics.

Not when the boon / regen healing AoE will hit 5 RANDOM players, thus further strengthening my argument that a zerg standing in one spot is easier to kill.

It’s a stupid arbitrary mechanic and those defending it know it. As for being OP, 3 ele with air focus 4 can negate all the ranged damaged in the world and protect the precious zerg. A few mesmers and their bounce back bubble would destroy an army of AoEers. Frankly there are many counters to Area of Effects abilities, they are just ignored, because they can be.

zastari.1730:

How about doubling the limit to 10 in WvW maps only?

This has always been my idea, somewhat.

Something along the lines of, “First 5 targets take full damage, next 5 take 40% damage, ALL the rest take 10% damage”. You’d need 10+ Ele’s all nuking the exact same spot to take down a 50 man zerg so it wouldn’t be crazy overpowered (like completely removing the cap would be), but it would make turtling/clumping just a bit more dangerous because you’d still be taking splash damage if you weren’t one of the chosen 5…

And no AOE limit on siege other than arrow carts (which would work on the system described above). Turtling to completely negate AOE damage is NOT true tactics (just clever use of game mechanics) and although it shouldn’t be punished with near instant death, it should be discouraged in some manner unless you bring enough defensive talents to keep a protective shield up (ala the phalanx from history).

If a coordinated attack is such a huge issue when there is no AOE-limit, why shouldn’t other skills be affected as well? Take for example resurrection skills of the Elementalist or Warrior. Having just one of them could counter that entire well prepared coordinated attack by dropping a banner in the middle. I do agree, that healing and such, should be limited (or rather, effectiveness reduced when the number of people increases), but there is no good reason for damage and utilities..

ShadowSoljer.6524:

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Lets use an example with you using your aoe skills on a zerg. You use your first aoe and it hits 4 people, but guess what, the zerg was spread out. You use your second aoe, it hits 3 people. Those 2 aoe skills you used were on a spread out zerg.

Now its time for you to use aoe on a zerg thats standing on top of each other. You use aoe #1, it hits 5 people. Then aoe #2 hits 5 people.

Its the same…wait a second…

“Those zergs that get wiped by AoE aren’t properly abusing the mechanics. If they would simply stand on top of each other (thereby taking advantage of the AoE cap) they would be much safer”

….yep you are right, standing on top of each other sure does make it safer (thats what you wanted me to say right?)

So in reality, a zerg that stands on top of each other is much easier to kill even with the much needed 5 player cap on aoe.

You are missing a key part of the equation. When you are hitting lone players and small groups, every single attack you hit them with does its damage to that one player. The power behind turtling is that every single attack that hits a player, has a random chance to actually effect that player. If there are 50 players and they get hit by a 5-target skill, then each player has a 10% chance of taking damage, and a 1% chance of taking damage from two attacks in a row.

Taking only 10% of the damage/effects from attacks, and being basically immune from focus fire (0.001% chance to be effected by 5 attacks in a row) is where the turtling strategy gets its power… and what makes it so stupid and contrary to common sense.

Also, while most supportive abilities may be capped to 5 targets, combo fields are not capped to who can and cannot use them. A big ball of 50 players just needs a couple people to put down water/light fields and everyone else just using combo finishers to cleanse all conditions and heal up the big boring ball of players.

ajm.2931:

A few mesmers and their bounce back bubble would destroy an army of AoEers.

I see that you don’t play a Mesmer. I would kindly ask you to refrain from spreading this misinformation, I see it all too often (especially in “nerf Mesmer” posts).

Hm, both sides make good points. My impulse is to support anything that prevents turtling.

SteepledHat.1345:

Hm, both sides make good points. My impulse is to support anything that prevents turtling.

I was under the impression that the 5 person limit on heals and buffs was patched in specifically because of turtling.