Guild Wars 2

Dear Community,

I read a lot of complaints about zergs and stacking and such… so I wanted to tell you why it happens and why it will never go away until Anet really cares about providing quality support roles.

Anet designed most support skills to be point blank aoe effective skills. There are not any meaningful ranged support skills. There is no targeting players from range to support them in any way, and minus the few ranged ground target skills (that are awful to use on moving targets), that’s it…

The entire support system forces players to “turtle up” to gain the maximum benefits and be more effective. And the more that players gather up, the more benefits they get.

Until Anet modernizes support roles and improves support skills and skill designs… zerging and stacking will never change and will always remain the most beneficial way to play as a team.

Thank you for reading!

They wont modernize, that means change pve to something where players need effort as well… And gw2 was designed to be a dull and easy game.

This game is for players who dont like effort overall, sadly this is the most modernized version we migh see of gw2, and its simple, they wont do any of that, on future releases will be a add more aoe stuff, spammable and keep pressing 11111111.
Anet will keep carrying its players due damage and not trough “clever gameplay”.

Gw2 needs to be more similiar to Gw1 when were talking about skills and team gameplay.

(EDIT)They will hide the zergs and lag, trough servers pairing to make servers that fight in the same period of the day to not fight each other or at least try, that would be a lag fest due its aoe spam due brainless turtling as well.
They have been workign in placebos… its is disgustfull…

There is absolutely no way to design fun 1v1 combat that doesnt mean 2v1 is always the stronger choice.

Ergo zergs.

Because human brain stuff 101.

Because we are extroverts.

Dawdler.8521:

There is absolutely no way to design fun 1v1 combat that doesnt mean 2v1 is always the stronger choice.

Ergo zergs.

Because human brain stuff 101.

Not even.

It’s not going away because the entire framework supporting the purpose of small groups in WvW was systematically removed with HoT, exacerbated by what can only be defined as an un-fun PvP experience in general in the game that came from the elite specs’ poor designs and power creep.

So with the small-scale-havoc and PPT scene completely and totally destroyed, there’s no incentive to not just omniblob/ktrain since it’s actually the most optimal strategy, now, and nobody really has fun doing otherwise unless it’s just scumbag gankers who get off on 5+v1’ing people, as most of the diversity and skilled play in small-scale has since been outright removed/nullified.

Like pretty much every issue in the game right now, it’s all on profession design and balance at its core.

Sadly, that team seems to be the one that tries to make the fewest changes possible, while somewhere in the chain there’s a critical failure of understanding that the entire game is tilting away from success because of the poor decision-making made here.

As far as “modernizing” support roles into ranged capability; that’s very, very far from “modernizing” its identity; core D&D and most games since have kept the support as some kind of backline buffer/augmenter for the melee beatface. Fact is that there’s simply too much support and sustain available in the game right now in general and next to no build investment to get it. We don’t need to fall back to ancient, dated, and frankly underwhelming role-based systems to make WvW any good; the very nature of the professions and sustain and supportive abilities in the game just need to be re-examined and rebuilt to promote a healthier state of build variety and purpose for each individual and the goal his or her group is trying to achieve.

Dawdler.8521:

There is absolutely no way to design fun 1v1 combat that doesnt mean 2v1 is always the stronger choice.

Ergo zergs.

Because human brain stuff 101.

Maybe for 2v1, but a strong “overcrowded” debuff has been asked for ages to fight against blobs. That may not solve other problems pointed in this thread, but it surely would help.

There are more reasons why zerguing is so famous, successful and desired, rather than just the way support skills are designed.

First there’s the common rule of numbers being better. Having more warriors at war tent to be a big advantage, playing 11vs10 in football has a big impact, a chorus made of more singers is more harmonious and can produce a bigger scene, a team of several members can achieve quicker results than a single dude or a couple, and so on.
Same happens in Gw2. If there are 3 guys taking a camp, it will be easier for your team to fight them with 5 players instead of 2. At the same time, the enemy has more changes to take it with 6-7 players instead of 3. And now you need to bring more people to defend it. It’s a vicious circle.

But also, gw2 has implemented 4 major mechanics that induce people to stack:

• WvW is meant for big battles by putting structures with several layers of very tanky defenses and siege with insane range compared to class skills. Defense is extremely easy and stacking is the only way to have a comparable offense. If WvW was all about camps, zergs wouldn’t be so successful.
• Ranged skills have a rather small range compared to melee skills and the dimensions the game is built on. Fights happen to be very compacted and developed in a rather small area for these reasons. Ranged pressure being limited to 1200 range and often at only 900 when melee is 130-200 in a battleground of several thousands, forces offensive players to be very exposed and support is required around them. That or the offense comes from the melee itself, which is what we see now.
• No body-block. Without it, there is no limitation on how many people can be in the same spot, changing entirely how the combat is developed. Gw1 had it btw.
• As nearly all offensive AoE skills in gw2 are limited to 5 targets, their effect is diminished when the enemy gets bigger. Zerguing is not only required for surviving, but also for killing.

HoT only enchanted the zerg mechanic by killing roaming options and making melee based classes tanky and offensive at the same time. But zerguing was already there before.
To prevent it, the entire game has to be redesigned and that’s why zerg will never disappear, it’s not just a matter of redesigning support.

DeceiverX.8361:

Sadly, that team seems to be the one that tries to make the fewest changes possible, while somewhere in the chain there’s a critical failure of understanding that the entire game is tilting away from success because of the poor decision-making made here.

Because there’s a fundamental lack of resources in that area and with the resources they have they put an incompetent yes man in charge of it.

Because Zergging has been going on for longer then GW2 ….. People won’t change something that’s been a staple in games for quite a number of years and games.

I agree that the lack of skill balance and diversity is a big factor in the death of solo-roaming. The game gets stale when underused weapon sets, skills, and traits go unchanged year after year. I also feel that the power creep introduced with the trait changes and elite specs also make it much more difficult to win outnumbered fights due to the over abundance of AOE damage, CC, and damage immunity.

There were also several gameplay changes which made small groups and roamers unnecessary. Auto upgrades and spotting by sentries allow players to group up and stay with the zerg. It’s also more difficult to ninja objectives with small groups when you have to deal with Watchtower upgrades and buffed lord HP. The spotted affect on keep capture also prevents roamers from sneaking in behind enemy zergs to steal or re-take the keep.

Players zerg because the defensive buffs over the years DEMAND players zerg to take objectives. This is the side effect of making it easier for smaller numbers to defend things, it mandates that you need larger numbers to take things.

For the first couple years I ran in smaller groups and was consistently able to break into keeps and towers to force things. That just isn’t possible now, and if we run into a fortified wall with just one dedicated guy with siege, it isn’t worth 1hour to fight 1 guy and break in.

Defensive buffs are dumb, remove fortified walls, bring back old arrow cart damage, make it all paper forever.

Pinko.2076:

Players zerg because the defensive buffs over the years DEMAND players zerg to take objectives. This is the side effect of making it easier for smaller numbers to defend things, it mandates that you need larger numbers to take things.

For the first couple years I ran in smaller groups and was consistently able to break into keeps and towers to force things. That just isn’t possible now, and if we run into a fortified wall with just one dedicated guy with siege, it isn’t worth 1hour to fight 1 guy and break in.

Defensive buffs are dumb, remove fortified walls, bring back old arrow cart damage, make it all paper forever.

That’s an interesting problem, and it seems to be one of WvW huge problem. The point of WvW is take and hold objectives, so it requires such a balance in mechanics that

1. Defenders will not be totally useless.
2. Attackers won’t feel like an upgraded tower or keep is beyond their reach.

In the current status of WvW, we’re inside a vicious circle. Indeed, siege weapons have been buffed so that few defenders can hold an objective against a zerg for enough time for reinforcements to come. This isn’t even properly working because of sight blocking, and death traps walls…
On the other hand, attackers are only required to do damage (to walls, gates, lord) and to bear defense if they want to take an objective.

Both of these clearly incitate the zerg-tactics. So maybe some thoughts about other mechanics are required it. Either put new mechanics that’d be more destined to small-scale or roaming players, alongside current system, or simply remove the need to deal any damage to structure when taking objectives.

Some ideas I saw here and there :

• Dolly bombers launched from camps
• Bring back that siege commander with his own siege as the only way to open a tower/gate
• Hire henchmens in camps or towers to attack an objective, they’d be the only ones able to damage walls or gates
• Infiltration kit allowing sneaky classes (thieves or mesmers) to get inside.

After all, if players are only supposed to fight players, then NPC’s are required to fight “environmental” things.

So overcomplicating it. Players zerg because they enjoy it. That’s been self-evident from conversation in the zergs for years. Players who don’t enjoy it either don’t zerg or don’t speak – or they come to a forum outside the game, like this one, and complain.

If you want to look at the mechanics rather than the psychology, GW2 is designed from the ground up to encourage players to gather in very large groups. The entire open-world PvE set-up works like that, from Orr through to Heart of Thorns. WvW is a PvE offshoot that follows the same design principles.

Tiny Doom.4380:

If you want to look at the mechanics rather than the psychology, GW2 is designed from the ground up to encourage players to gather in very large groups. The entire open-world PvE set-up works like that, from Orr through to Heart of Thorns. WvW is a PvE offshoot that follows the same design principles.

That is true. The design, or mechanics, is roughly to just smash whatever is coloured red on the screen.

Tiny Doom.4380:

So overcomplicating it. Players zerg because they enjoy it. That’s been self-evident from conversation in the zergs for years. Players who don’t enjoy it either don’t zerg or don’t speak – or they come to a forum outside the game, like this one, and complain.

That’s oversimplifying. Why do people enjoy zergs ? Because it works. Because they just need to run and spam 1, while laughing or trolling on the chat or TS, and they’ll get bags and loot. It requires no effort, and it works. So players can enjoy it (some do not, that’s why I’m using “can”).

Now, if zergs were purely 0 use, and even worse, if they were a turndown (because lack of effectivity or dimnished rewards, e.g.), I guess less people would enjoy it.

So, it ends up to what the game mechanics favor as an simple and rewarding (hence enjoyable) way of playing. I agree : currently, it’s zergs. I’m not against that. I’m only sad there’s less and less space for other ways to enjoy the game.

maybe you guys should try running as 10 in t1 or versus Yaks Bend and see why barely anyone bothers

you either roam as few numbers, or you zerg to force server-size fights. the middle ground has been washed away with defensive buffs over the years

Swagger.1459:

snipples

Saying the support system is at fault is ridiculous. Since the same mechanics apply to a group of 3 as it does to a group of 60, there really is no basis for the support system being the problem. People zerg up because of the offensive aoe cap; it is the best defensive option against large numbers to ball up and share the damage payload. This has been stated by many people, including Red Guard who practically wrote the book on wvw. As for there not being any meaningful ranged support skills, wow lol. Maybe you should take a look through the wiki. I will agree that the best support options are short ranged, but blanket statements like that are plain false.

It doesn’t help that PvE was designed to encourage zerging. If there were ways to punish people for zerging, then we would see a vast change in group size variability. Since the belief that bigger numbers have the advantage can be true, the deciding factor being coordination, if you take away the number advantage then coordination would be the only deciding factor.

Please note that I do realize that removing the aoe cap would create massive lag, but if lag wasn’t a problem, how do you think it would do as a concept?

Dawdler.8521:

There is absolutely no way to design fun 1v1 combat that doesnt mean 2v1 is always the stronger choice.

Ergo zergs.

Because human brain stuff 101.

Read above.

Ansau.7326:

snipples

Very right on points. Good post! Only question I would pose to you is: if skills could target more people, then zerging could be punished more, thus do you think zergs would dissipate over time or would people be unwilling to adapt to the change? What about for a completely different game?

Stand The Wall.6987:

if skills could target more people, then zerging could be punished more, thus do you think zergs would dissipate over time or would people be unwilling to adapt to the change? What about for a completely different game?

Removing the AOE’s cap is a thing, but clearly won’t be enough for different reasons :

• Skill-lag usually happens even before the zerg is at range, so it’ll be hard to channel a skill without being crushed first in a open-field battle.
• Zergs will still spontaneously be the main way of playing, because the drawback would only occur when there’re playing enemies, not against objectives.
• The buff and bunker fashion still mitigate strongly the effect of AoE skills. There’d be a need for lots of AoE’s to really be an annoyance.

As far as I’m concerned, I stand for a hard option to cut zergs, i.e. an “overcrowded” debuff, that’d strongly nerf stats, damage, defense, speed…

There’s also the issue of most zerglings leaving the game because it’s no as easy as should be to get bags… Well… I’m all for letting them go, have a healthier gameplay, and get fresh healthy players. I’m not sure ANet can afford such a cut, on the other hand.

Here, big zerg can just stack on top of each other, press 111111 and win

In DAOC, your 30 people doing that would be mezzed and PBAOED down in about 3 seconds by competent group of 8 (my best ever is killing 96 with 8 in less than 10s, btw)

Check at 1:10, 1:40 etc

So its just about game design

ThomasC.1056:

Removing the AOE’s cap is a thing, but clearly won’t be enough for different reasons :

• Skill-lag usually happens even before the zerg is at range, so it’ll be hard to channel a skill without being crushed first in a open-field battle.
• Zergs will still spontaneously be the main way of playing, because the drawback would only occur when there’re playing enemies, not against objectives.
• The buff and bunker fashion still mitigate strongly the effect of AoE skills. There’d be a need for lots of AoE’s to really be an annoyance.

As far as I’m concerned, I stand for a hard option to cut zergs, i.e. an “overcrowded” debuff, that’d strongly nerf stats, damage, defense, speed…

There’s also the issue of most zerglings leaving the game because it’s no as easy as should be to get bags… Well… I’m all for letting them go, have a healthier gameplay, and get fresh healthy players. I’m not sure ANet can afford such a cut, on the other hand.

Good stuff, although I specifically stated that “if skill lag wasn’t a problem”. As far as objectives go, you’re absolutely right, big numbers would be needed, and against other players less. This would create a sort of fluctuation which imo would be a great way to introduce a dynamic variability, unlike current status of things where everything is ktrained. Your third point doesn’t make sense to me, because if for example 5 eles and 5 necros all used their meteor showers/wells at once (assuming retal stripped), and skills hit like 20 people each, then this buff and bunker thing you mention wouldn’t matter. Obviously all of the classes would need their aoe capabilities buffed so no one class would be the best option.

The overcrowded and outmanned debuff/buff thing would be good if the aoe cap couldn’t be lifted, but its still a vastly inferior option because you are effectively punishing a server for having/not having population.

As for zerglings leaving the game, you’re probably right. It is hard to tell though, if all the old players heard that you could actually take down 10 times your numbers, we could see a lot of them coming back. New players looking for blood, that value coordination over numbers, would perk their ears as well. No doubt there would be a risk, but imo the risk is worth it seeing as though most servers wvw population is dead already.

Nikola.3841:

snipples

Good share, thank you. I wish GW2 could be like that. I think we would see a huge influx of players willing and able to achieve this level of play if the GW2 servers could handle the load.

Nikola.3841:

Here, big zerg can just stack on top of each other, press 111111 and win

In DAOC, your 30 people doing that would be mezzed and PBAOED down in about 3 seconds by competent group of 8 (my best ever is killing 96 with 8 in less than 10s, btw)

Check at 1:10, 1:40 etc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mI250gU4Ct8

So its just about game design

This still happens in non casual skill based MMORPGs of todays time. Here I’ll post a video for you guys.

The only reason why zerging is the only playstyle in GW2 is simple. It just the direction the devs went with their HoT expansion. Can’t have groups of 50 plus bads upset at the fact they got outplayed by 8 people. So ANet just make sure that it’s not possible.

GW2 is the most brainless zerg friendly game on the market. ANet make bank off of this point more so then anything else. Only MMORPG on the market where one just don’t have to work to be good, one can just either exploit leader boards with no recourse, or one just have to stack servers and hide in a blobs of 50 plus people and bam instantly gets rewarded.

Reaper Alim.4176:

Nikola.3841:

Here, big zerg can just stack on top of each other, press 111111 and win

In DAOC, your 30 people doing that would be mezzed and PBAOED down in about 3 seconds by competent group of 8 (my best ever is killing 96 with 8 in less than 10s, btw)

Check at 1:10, 1:40 etc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mI250gU4Ct8

So its just about game design

This still happens in non casual skill based MMORPGs of todays time. Here I’ll post a video for you guys.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gVIftIeAdw

The only reason why zerging is the only playstyle in GW2 is simple. It just the direction the devs went with their HoT expansion. Can’t have groups of 50 plus bads upset at the fact they got outplayed by 8 people. So ANet just make sure that it’s not possible.

GW2 is the most brainless zerg friendly game on the market. ANet make bank off of this point more so then anything else. Only MMORPG on the market where one just don’t have to work to be good, one can just either exploit leader boards with no recourse, or one just have to stack servers and hide in a blobs of 50 plus people and bam instantly gets rewarded.

I’m gonna guess ESO, but what game is that? It looks really fun and challenging. I never tried that one personally.

Reaper Alim.4176:

snipples

noted.
I would definitely hate that game, i’m never going to try it. looks so skill intensive, and oh my god 75 aoe cap? what are they trying to do, make the game so noob friendly to the point where…?

Rambitshouse.8712:

I’m gonna guess ESO, but what game is that? It looks really fun and challenging. I never tried that one personally.

Yep the guy in the video is one of the best ESO pvpers in that game both in terms of playing and theorycrafting pvp builds.

Reaper Alim.4176:

Rambitshouse.8712:

Reaper Alim.4176:

Nikola.3841:

Here, big zerg can just stack on top of each other, press 111111 and win

In DAOC, your 30 people doing that would be mezzed and PBAOED down in about 3 seconds by competent group of 8 (my best ever is killing 96 with 8 in less than 10s, btw)

Check at 1:10, 1:40 etc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mI250gU4Ct8

So its just about game design

This still happens in non casual skill based MMORPGs of todays time. Here I’ll post a video for you guys.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gVIftIeAdw

The only reason why zerging is the only playstyle in GW2 is simple. It just the direction the devs went with their HoT expansion. Can’t have groups of 50 plus bads upset at the fact they got outplayed by 8 people. So ANet just make sure that it’s not possible.

GW2 is the most brainless zerg friendly game on the market. ANet make bank off of this point more so then anything else. Only MMORPG on the market where one just don’t have to work to be good, one can just either exploit leader boards with no recourse, or one just have to stack servers and hide in a blobs of 50 plus people and bam instantly gets rewarded.

I’m gonna guess ESO, but what game is that? It looks really fun and challenging. I never tried that one personally.

It is ESO. However I honestly do not recommend ESO to GW2 players. I say this because as you see in the video above. I you think you just going to be able to nut hug and omni blob and win in that game by pressing one or two buttons you are wrong.

ESO is also a MMORPG that eat casuals for breakfast, lunch, and dinner should they try to do PvP or challenging End Game PvE content. ESO has very little place for average casual gamers. Most buy the game and leave after a month, after seeing the amount of word and effort it takes to grind gear and then get gud at playing.

That is why I can not recommend ESO to any of you guys here on these forums. It’s more then likely a game yall would absolutely hate becaus it is the complete oppisite of GW2. Also next month ZOS is reducing the AOE cap to 75 players so you causal zerg lovers will absolutely have no place in ESO.

Oh I forgot to mention the grind is very real, it is beyond real, almost Asian Real. Do I like ESO yes ESO is my primary MMO, GW2 is my vaction MMO away from ESO, Smite, and other hardcore games I like to play. So take it from me, you will more then likely not like the skill, grind, or competitive floor or cap in ESO, It is like the mountain while GW2 is like the ant, far as skill and grind goes, for both PvP and End Game PvE.

I think that’s my issue with gw2…..it’s just boring and I feel like most of the builds just carry me. Want something challenging.

Stand The Wall.6987:

Reaper Alim.4176:

snipples

noted.
I would definitely hate that game, i’m never going to try it. looks so skill intensive, and oh my god 75 aoe cap? what are they trying to do, make the game so noob friendly to the point where…?

Noob friendly? Lol quite the reverse actually. They are trying to make it more hardcore and spread the zergs out more. They are just trying to make the zerg playstyle have cons, and not just be face roll. So there’s not whats going on in GW2, where people are just stacking servers and just running over much smaller groups. ZOS actually wants to make players pay dearly for utilizing skill-less stack, outnumber , and steamroll zerg tactics. They want to make the zerg playstyle more risk versus rewards, and not all rewards and no risks. Solo and Small Group activities are a thing, in other MMOs.

But then again, I don’t expect many people in these forums, to understand such things.

Reaper Alim.4176:

Noob friendly? Lol quite the reverse actually. They are trying to make it more hardcore and spread the zergs out more. They are just trying to make the zerg playstyle have cons, and not just be face roll. So there’s not whats going on in GW2, where people are just stacking servers and just running over much smaller groups. ZOS actually wants to make players pay dearly for utilizing skill-less stack, outnumber , and steamroll zerg tactics. They want to make the zerg playstyle more risk versus rewards, and not all rewards and no risks. Solo and Small Group activities are a thing, in other MMOs.

But then again, I don’t expect many people in these forums, to understand such things.

I don’t understand how you have this perception of things. We anet has continuously reduced aoe caps and damage, while increasing group defensive capabilities since june 23rd 2015.

lol, I thought you were being sarcastic so I was too. eso looks awesome, haven’t given it much thought until I saw some vids.

Reaper Alim.4176:

Oh I forgot to mention the grind is very real, it is beyond real, almost Asian Real. Do I like ESO yes ESO is my primary MMO, GW2 is my vaction MMO away from ESO, Smite, and other hardcore games I like to play. So take it from me, you will more then likely not like the skill, grind, or competitive floor or cap in ESO, It is like the mountain while GW2 is like the ant, far as skill and grind goes, for both PvP and End Game PvE.

Not sure I buy your opinion on ESO since your assessment of gw2 is a bit off.

A competent group can easily kill a much larger casual zerg in GW2. There aren’t many guilds left that are capable since anet drove them all off with HoT and empty promises.

It might not be some 8v90..but honestly that is a bit ridiculous and I wouldn’t want that in a game anyways sounds awful.

No just a little better balancing and maybe reduce the map cap a little…add in dikus guesting proposal things would look a lot better.

Eval.2371:

Reaper Alim.4176:

Noob friendly? Lol quite the reverse actually. They are trying to make it more hardcore and spread the zergs out more. They are just trying to make the zerg playstyle have cons, and not just be face roll. So there’s not whats going on in GW2, where people are just stacking servers and just running over much smaller groups. ZOS actually wants to make players pay dearly for utilizing skill-less stack, outnumber , and steamroll zerg tactics. They want to make the zerg playstyle more risk versus rewards, and not all rewards and no risks. Solo and Small Group activities are a thing, in other MMOs.

But then again, I don’t expect many people in these forums, to understand such things.

I don’t understand how you have this perception of things. We anet has continuously reduced aoe caps and damage, while increasing group defensive capabilities since june 23rd 2015.

What? The AOE cap has been at 5 since the games launch.

Reaper Alim.4176:

So take it from me, you will more then likely not like the skill, grind, or competitive floor or cap in ESO, It is like the mountain while GW2 is like the ant, far as skill and grind goes, for both PvP and End Game PvE.

So the difference is basicly if you play GW2 you will be part of a thriving anthill where everyone is working together and if you play ESO you will be alone on top of a mountain, surrounded by frozen corpses and have 20m left to live due to lack of oxygen.

Reaper Alim.4176:

Nikola.3841:

Here, big zerg can just stack on top of each other, press 111111 and win

In DAOC, your 30 people doing that would be mezzed and PBAOED down in about 3 seconds by competent group of 8 (my best ever is killing 96 with 8 in less than 10s, btw)

Check at 1:10, 1:40 etc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mI250gU4Ct8

So its just about game design

This still happens in non casual skill based MMORPGs of todays time. Here I’ll post a video for you guys.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gVIftIeAdw

The only reason why zerging is the only playstyle in GW2 is simple. It just the direction the devs went with their HoT expansion. Can’t have groups of 50 plus bads upset at the fact they got outplayed by 8 people. So ANet just make sure that it’s not possible.

GW2 is the most brainless zerg friendly game on the market. ANet make bank off of this point more so then anything else. Only MMORPG on the market where one just don’t have to work to be good, one can just either exploit leader boards with no recourse, or one just have to stack servers and hide in a blobs of 50 plus people and bam instantly gets rewarded.

DAOC is still around, too
I guess its not a coincidence that Matt Firor from Mythic is the main guy behind ESO.
Just bad luck for me that GW2 came out before ESO, I guess, really have not enough time to start another MMO

Nikola.3841:

DAOC is still around, too
I guess its not a coincidence that Matt Firor from Mythic is the main guy behind ESO.
Just bad luck for me that GW2 came out before ESO, I guess, really have not enough time to start another MMO

“Start” being the keyword. If you think WvW isnt in a good state because Anet is ignoring it, Cyrodill launch was a complete and utter disaster. Broken servers, broken mechanics, broken balance and devs that didnt say a word.

Few had the patience to start an MMO like that.

Dawdler.8521:

Nikola.3841:

DAOC is still around, too
I guess its not a coincidence that Matt Firor from Mythic is the main guy behind ESO.
Just bad luck for me that GW2 came out before ESO, I guess, really have not enough time to start another MMO

“Start” being the keyword. If you think WvW isnt in a good state because Anet is ignoring it, Cyrodill launch was a complete and utter disaster. Broken servers, broken mechanics, broken balance and devs that didnt say a word.

Few had the patience to start an MMO like that.

Also very true and the game was dead for that period of time. Until ZOS decided to pull a CCP and make ESO a decent game again. I should know I stopped playing ESO during that time period, when it was a beyond terrible game and GW2 seemed at the time it’s kitten just did not and could not stink. Man was I so totally wrong.

So since to me the roles of the two games, IMO have be completely reversed I have stop doing RvR in GW2 and moved to ESO for RvR. Skill actually matters, and a group of 25 or more players just can’t steam roll you because they have numbers.

Fights actually happens alot now in Cyrodiil during all times of the day. ZOS gave the ESO PvPers dueling. Battlegrounds are being talked about, 5v5, 3v3, and 2v2.

Again I’m not saying GW2 is bad per say. I’m just saying that as ANet makes it’s game more of a numbers game and ZOS makes it’s game more of a skill and grind based game. And since people are saying that zergs are also the path of least resistance, are actually wrong. I just wanted give a example of such.

The mob did used to rule back in old times. Now we have weapons capable of dealing super effective damage to such carelessly stacked mobs in a small area. The key is to get the coordination of assets to strike with precision for the attended goal. A group with equal assets and skill but greater numbers then it’s enemies should always win. A carefree enemy just comprised of numbers should not always beat a small group of superior tactics, assets, coordination, and skill just based off of game design.

Because the last is happening is the number one reason people are so willing to server stack and just omni blob down servers with lessor numbers. Best ANet has made doing so a near absolute META to win the battles and the war for the week. I didn’t play ESO during the times in the past when it was as such. Times have change and the roles are reverse, lucky for me not time invested, nor money invested in a game will keep me chain down, if I’m personally not having fun in said game.

Seems to me that all of yall are actually having fun just being able to stack servers. Then completely carelessly kill your enemies by out blobbing them down, with effort or expectation of counter play. So again yes you will absolutely hate ESO. Skill, gear, and tactics, win against numbers in ESO. You have been warned not to try this game. But if you do just get ready for that one to 4 month Champion Point system grind, get ready for the month of gear grinding, get ready for that looking a guides time to optimize your skills and builds, just to begin to compete with some of the more dedicated PvPers of ESO. ZOS is making the game more and more of, your carefree skill-less numbers will not save you type of game.

Reaper Alim.4176:

Seems to me that all of yall are actually having fun just being able to stack servers. Then completely carelessly kill your enemies by out blobbing them down, with effort or expectation of counter play. So again yes you will absolutely hate ESO. Skill, gear, and tactics, win against numbers in ESO. You have been warned not to try this game. But if you do just get ready for that one to 4 month Champion Point system grind, get ready for the month of gear grinding, get ready for that looking a guides time to optimize your skills and builds, just to begin to compete with some of the more dedicated PvPers of ESO. ZOS is making the game more and more of, your carefree skill-less numbers will not save you type of game.

It actually took about a year to ding 50 on my first character in DAOC
And let me not start about crafting there

Nikola.3841:

Reaper Alim.4176:

Seems to me that all of yall are actually having fun just being able to stack servers. Then completely carelessly kill your enemies by out blobbing them down, with effort or expectation of counter play. So again yes you will absolutely hate ESO. Skill, gear, and tactics, win against numbers in ESO. You have been warned not to try this game. But if you do just get ready for that one to 4 month Champion Point system grind, get ready for the month of gear grinding, get ready for that looking a guides time to optimize your skills and builds, just to begin to compete with some of the more dedicated PvPers of ESO. ZOS is making the game more and more of, your carefree skill-less numbers will not save you type of game.

It actually took about a year to ding 50 on my first character in DAOC
And let me not start about crafting there

Sounds like your dedication and skill means something in these other games. GW2 is practically handing out everything for free, there’s no sense of…..difficulty?

RodOfDeath.5247:

Nikola.3841:

Reaper Alim.4176:

Seems to me that all of yall are actually having fun just being able to stack servers. Then completely carelessly kill your enemies by out blobbing them down, with effort or expectation of counter play. So again yes you will absolutely hate ESO. Skill, gear, and tactics, win against numbers in ESO. You have been warned not to try this game. But if you do just get ready for that one to 4 month Champion Point system grind, get ready for the month of gear grinding, get ready for that looking a guides time to optimize your skills and builds, just to begin to compete with some of the more dedicated PvPers of ESO. ZOS is making the game more and more of, your carefree skill-less numbers will not save you type of game.

It actually took about a year to ding 50 on my first character in DAOC
And let me not start about crafting there

Sounds like your dedication and skill means something in these other games. GW2 is practically handing out everything for free, there’s no sense of…..difficulty?

You had to craft for about 800 hours to reach max level in some DAOC crafts, I think…then again, you’d become sort of a star at game release if you were able to construct ram on the field, alone

Reaper Alim.4176:

. A carefree enemy just comprised of numbers should not always beat a small group of superior tactics, assets, coordination, and skill just based off of game design.

That, however, was one of the unintended consequences of increasing the value of ppk. The intent was to reward fights. The actuality was it promoted outnumbering and running from equal ish fights.

What a hillarious thread from you swagger,

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/ranger/Amazing-Druid-Support-Ideas/first#post6303696

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Sugg-Another-Ground-Targeting-Option/first#post6271726

Guess I was the one who knew what they were talking about.

IMO, it’s not really the aoe that causes zerging. It’s the reward structure.

If 5 players kill 1 player, they all get rewarded. It’s faster and safer and there’s no real downside. It’s boring, yes, but running back 5 minutes across the desert borderlands because you died in a 1v1 is boring too.

So, just for the sake of discussion, on the topic of removing target limit of aoe. Do you not think that this will just further increase the gulf between efficacy of aoe skills and single target skills in the game mode? And hence the attractiveness of a smaller and smaller group of professions/weapon specs to WvWers (less build diversity). Is that just something that’s willing to be lived with for the sake of the desired end goal?
The other point of discussion I was curious about was of diminishing returns for larger groups, I’d be worried that the ideal quantity would be minmaxed within a week and then any new players being attracted to the game mode from there on would be made feel unwelcome to join a group after that critical number had been reached.
As is that sort of elitism/cliquiness is usually not present in the game mode because “more bodies almost always = better” and I tend to see that as one of the big plusses to wvw.
Just thoughts, not meant as attacks or anything.

Not too hard.

Boons have a short range (for some reason Anet nerfed the range of guardian virtues to further push everyone to stack together, and scale really well, so yes in a sense this is related to range support, though Eles and Mesmers can still do that fine.

But I think the biggest reason is that in a large group, the strategical aspect is greatly simplified. That is, you have one leader deciding where to go or where to attack. An individual only has to worry now about tactics, and really their own positioning as that is also mostly decided.

RodOfDeath.5247:

Nikola.3841:

Reaper Alim.4176:

Seems to me that all of yall are actually having fun just being able to stack servers. Then completely carelessly kill your enemies by out blobbing them down, with effort or expectation of counter play. So again yes you will absolutely hate ESO. Skill, gear, and tactics, win against numbers in ESO. You have been warned not to try this game. But if you do just get ready for that one to 4 month Champion Point system grind, get ready for the month of gear grinding, get ready for that looking a guides time to optimize your skills and builds, just to begin to compete with some of the more dedicated PvPers of ESO. ZOS is making the game more and more of, your carefree skill-less numbers will not save you type of game.

It actually took about a year to ding 50 on my first character in DAOC
And let me not start about crafting there

Sounds like your dedication and skill means something in these other games. GW2 is practically handing out everything for free, there’s no sense of…..difficulty?

You can always try l2p in gw2 or go play games where gear give you advantage.

Junkpile.7439:

You can always try l2p in gw2 or go play games where gear give you advantage.

Theres nothing to learn….you can’t learn how to mapblob, you either have numbers or you don’t have numbers, lol

Rashagar.8349:

So, just for the sake of discussion, on the topic of removing target limit of aoe. Do you not think that this will just further increase the gulf between efficacy of aoe skills and single target skills in the game mode? And hence the attractiveness of a smaller and smaller group of professions/weapon specs to WvWers (less build diversity). Is that just something that’s willing to be lived with for the sake of the desired end goal?
The other point of discussion I was curious about was of diminishing returns for larger groups, I’d be worried that the ideal quantity would be minmaxed within a week and then any new players being attracted to the game mode from there on would be made feel unwelcome to join a group after that critical number had been reached.
As is that sort of elitism/cliquiness is usually not present in the game mode because “more bodies almost always = better” and I tend to see that as one of the big plusses to wvw.
Just thoughts, not meant as attacks or anything.

I would imagine all classes and specs get adequate aoe capabilities, with some doing specific types of aoes better. For example ele excels at damage, ranger at soft cc, necro at boon strip, thief at burst damage etc.

The second point is a very good one, and pretty tricky. There is no real way to keep players from just running amok and possibly ruining another small groups gameplay, and there shouldn’t be. There can be ways to encourage grouping though, and while this would take away some power from the players, could work out for the better. If you join a wvw map, you have a couple of choices for pug groups, depending on what style of play you want to do (scout/build, roam, zerg). For organized guild teams, they can create their own groups. The separate groups gain increased/different rewards based off of quality and quantity of participation (you don’t get the same rewards for escorting a yak as you do for building a keep to t3), different bonuses (for example small teams get a small bonus to defense and roamers get a small bonus to speed for every kill they get), support skills and boons cannot be applied to people outside of your group, stuff like that. As for who leads pug groups, that’s up for debate. It could be assigned randomly within the group, and the group can vote who the commander is. Commanders could have a queue of their own, and when it pops they can lead a specific group for a specific time. Maybe it should be based off a commanders wvw rank and/or kdr. All of this will of course create a different set of problems, question is, is it worth it.

Junkpile.7439:

RodOfDeath.5247:

Nikola.3841:

Reaper Alim.4176:

Seems to me that all of yall are actually having fun just being able to stack servers. Then completely carelessly kill your enemies by out blobbing them down, with effort or expectation of counter play. So again yes you will absolutely hate ESO. Skill, gear, and tactics, win against numbers in ESO. You have been warned not to try this game. But if you do just get ready for that one to 4 month Champion Point system grind, get ready for the month of gear grinding, get ready for that looking a guides time to optimize your skills and builds, just to begin to compete with some of the more dedicated PvPers of ESO. ZOS is making the game more and more of, your carefree skill-less numbers will not save you type of game.

It actually took about a year to ding 50 on my first character in DAOC
And let me not start about crafting there

Sounds like your dedication and skill means something in these other games. GW2 is practically handing out everything for free, there’s no sense of…..difficulty?

You can always try l2p in gw2 or go play games where gear give you advantage.

But gear does give you an advantage in GW2, a big one in some cases, and GW2 is pretty much the least skillful mmo around.

morrolan.9608:

Junkpile.7439:

RodOfDeath.5247:

Nikola.3841:

Reaper Alim.4176:

Seems to me that all of yall are actually having fun just being able to stack servers. Then completely carelessly kill your enemies by out blobbing them down, with effort or expectation of counter play. So again yes you will absolutely hate ESO. Skill, gear, and tactics, win against numbers in ESO. You have been warned not to try this game. But if you do just get ready for that one to 4 month Champion Point system grind, get ready for the month of gear grinding, get ready for that looking a guides time to optimize your skills and builds, just to begin to compete with some of the more dedicated PvPers of ESO. ZOS is making the game more and more of, your carefree skill-less numbers will not save you type of game.

It actually took about a year to ding 50 on my first character in DAOC
And let me not start about crafting there

Sounds like your dedication and skill means something in these other games. GW2 is practically handing out everything for free, there’s no sense of…..difficulty?

You can always try l2p in gw2 or go play games where gear give you advantage.

But gear does give you an advantage in GW2, a big one in some cases, and GW2 is pretty much the least skillful mmo around.

Isn’t it like a 10-15% boost or something in stats if you run full ascended crap? I still run exotics, I just don’t care enough to win anymore lol

RodOfDeath.5247:

morrolan.9608:

Junkpile.7439:

RodOfDeath.5247:

Nikola.3841:

Reaper Alim.4176:

Seems to me that all of yall are actually having fun just being able to stack servers. Then completely carelessly kill your enemies by out blobbing them down, with effort or expectation of counter play. So again yes you will absolutely hate ESO. Skill, gear, and tactics, win against numbers in ESO. You have been warned not to try this game. But if you do just get ready for that one to 4 month Champion Point system grind, get ready for the month of gear grinding, get ready for that looking a guides time to optimize your skills and builds, just to begin to compete with some of the more dedicated PvPers of ESO. ZOS is making the game more and more of, your carefree skill-less numbers will not save you type of game.

It actually took about a year to ding 50 on my first character in DAOC
And let me not start about crafting there

Sounds like your dedication and skill means something in these other games. GW2 is practically handing out everything for free, there’s no sense of…..difficulty?

You can always try l2p in gw2 or go play games where gear give you advantage.

But gear does give you an advantage in GW2, a big one in some cases, and GW2 is pretty much the least skillful mmo around.

Isn’t it like a 10-15% boost or something in stats if you run full ascended crap? I still run exotics, I just don’t care enough to win anymore lol

My friend use exotics and win almost all fights.

Junkpile.7439, doesnt that deppends the class and the damage output his build does?
for sure he is not playing a guardian :P

RodOfDeath.5247:

morrolan.9608:

Junkpile.7439:

RodOfDeath.5247:

Nikola.3841:

Reaper Alim.4176:

Seems to me that all of yall are actually having fun just being able to stack servers. Then completely carelessly kill your enemies by out blobbing them down, with effort or expectation of counter play. So again yes you will absolutely hate ESO. Skill, gear, and tactics, win against numbers in ESO. You have been warned not to try this game. But if you do just get ready for that one to 4 month Champion Point system grind, get ready for the month of gear grinding, get ready for that looking a guides time to optimize your skills and builds, just to begin to compete with some of the more dedicated PvPers of ESO. ZOS is making the game more and more of, your carefree skill-less numbers will not save you type of game.

It actually took about a year to ding 50 on my first character in DAOC
And let me not start about crafting there

Sounds like your dedication and skill means something in these other games. GW2 is practically handing out everything for free, there’s no sense of…..difficulty?

You can always try l2p in gw2 or go play games where gear give you advantage.

But gear does give you an advantage in GW2, a big one in some cases, and GW2 is pretty much the least skillful mmo around.

Isn’t it like a 10-15% boost or something in stats if you run full ascended crap? I still run exotics, I just don’t care enough to win anymore lol

It’s not like having Exotic Armor and only Ascended weapon and trinkets make it impossible to play… Honestly, a bunch of the competent players I know took years to get Ascended armor and it was never a issue for them.
I still play exotic armors on my alt account myself and the only issue I have is that it feel most of the professions can no longer compete without having their Elite Spec unlocked (as my alt account have no HoT).

RodOfDeath.5247:

morrolan.9608:

Junkpile.7439:

RodOfDeath.5247:

Nikola.3841:

Reaper Alim.4176:

Seems to me that all of yall are actually having fun just being able to stack servers. Then completely carelessly kill your enemies by out blobbing them down, with effort or expectation of counter play. So again yes you will absolutely hate ESO. Skill, gear, and tactics, win against numbers in ESO. You have been warned not to try this game. But if you do just get ready for that one to 4 month Champion Point system grind, get ready for the month of gear grinding, get ready for that looking a guides time to optimize your skills and builds, just to begin to compete with some of the more dedicated PvPers of ESO. ZOS is making the game more and more of, your carefree skill-less numbers will not save you type of game.

It actually took about a year to ding 50 on my first character in DAOC
And let me not start about crafting there

Sounds like your dedication and skill means something in these other games. GW2 is practically handing out everything for free, there’s no sense of…..difficulty?

You can always try l2p in gw2 or go play games where gear give you advantage.

But gear does give you an advantage in GW2, a big one in some cases, and GW2 is pretty much the least skillful mmo around.

Isn’t it like a 10-15% boost or something in stats if you run full ascended crap? I still run exotics, I just don’t care enough to win anymore lol

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3xd0ex/ascended_vs_exotic_updated/

It’s a good 12% which does matter. However this is full ascended vs full exotic; getting ascended trinkets is really easy.

It’s 2% between Exotic Armor + ascended everything else vs full ascended. And armor is the most expensive part. So the QQ over it is pretty overblown but the weapons/trinkets do matter a bit in practice. Honestly, food probably matters more.

Now if we’re talking about certain stats …..