Guild Wars 2

JaNordy.6149:

Cause this game is aimed as casuals and they need second chance after dying cause they are bad.

so what you saying is any person every injured(downed) on a battlefield in the history of battles was bad? try explaining that to all the wounded soldiers in the world and see what happens..im sure they will tell you they are happy the buddies where there to save them…..

So we have players who want it removed and players who want it to stay .
We all agree that a downed player has been defeated.
Give the credit (loot) to the player /players who defeated him/her.
and count it as a kill.

Fjandi.2516:

Nope sorry what you are describing is a typical zerg vs zerg fight. You don’t play “organized” wvw…you do play in a zerg spamming buttons and following your commander. That’s not “organized” wvw. I’m not saying your bad i don’t even know who you are. That’s simply the only way to play in a fight like that…so much aoe, so many effects, pulls, knockdowns, lag…it’s terrible. Fights like that shouldn’t even exist in this game.

This mode called “World versus World”, not gang vs. gang, 5 vs. 5 or something alike. It’s all about large battles, large maps, large populations, and about ways to manage them. Game of small scale encounters is sPvP thing, and it shall stay that way.

Because most players like following their zergs with their zerker gear, and tag as many enemies as they can to have higher chances of getting loot bags and rallying?

Or because people running around with 2 friends would rage quit and /uninstall if a solo roamer could actually kill them instead of downing them and watch them res each other time after time after time?

Too many questions.

Rednik.3809:

This mode called “World versus World”, not gang vs. gang, 5 vs. 5 or something alike. It’s all about large battles, large maps, large populations, and about ways to manage them. Game of small scale encounters is sPvP thing, and it shall stay that way.

Absolutely. Too bad the devs failed badly at that so your “large population” fights are terrible and most players detest them (yes, i’m sure about that). Also spvp has only 1 game mode and, again, most players do not like that mode, so yea if you wanna play small fights without running around capping flags wvw is probably the best choice.
Oh btw gang vs gang sounds c00l. They should change the name.

Engels.8537:

Because most players like following their zergs with their zerker gear, and tag as many enemies as they can to have higher chances of getting loot bags and rallying?

Or because people running around with 2 friends would rage quit and /uninstall if a solo roamer could actually kill them instead of downing them and watch them res each other time after time after time?

Too many questions.

Lol so true.

Anyways, looking at the mechanics of WvW i’ve noticed that the downed state really promotes large group gameplay. It practically chokes out any sort of motive for small coordinated groups to take on larger ones.

I was wondering if Arena Net was thinking about re-working the downed state/Dead?

The issue I see many times, is that many servers don’t field as many players as others. Reworking this downed state would give WvW much more versatility in its gameplay, promoting more tactical play through smaller groups rather than just massing around. It would bring a whole level of tactical gameplay that many people would enjoy.

In regards to the downstate, perhaps reworking the mechanic of how many people can res someone at once would solve that issue. Instead of 4 people, maybe just make it 1 or 2. It wouldn’t affect the overall gameplay of guild wars other than only two people max on downed state rather than four. This also would promote much more strategy and not just running in face first to everything knowing 4 people are ready to res you right back up.

Larger groups often “Power res” their downed before someone can even get a stomp off. They res before you even half way finish your stomp. Not to mention the interupts and CC’s the larger groups are going to inflict on you to save their ally. So even if small squads manage to down someone toe to toe combat, it doesnt matter because they just power res them right back up. It’s an endless struggle that in the end goes to the larger forces favor. Its a matter of quantity, not quality.

As far as dead goes, often times the same situation happens. If the smaller groups manages to get a stomp, and they are really outnumbered. 3-4 people can power res that person in a very short amount of time, and there isn’t much that smaller group can do about it while in combat. At that point, it’s back to square one for that smaller group and again back to the larger groups favor simply because of numbers.

I think a reasonable way to handle this would be to put a “cooldown” timer on a dead state if they are in combat. Once they die, and they are still in combat they can’t be ressed (other than waypoint) for a certain amount of time, say 1 minute. However, if they are out of combat completely (that goes for the ressers as well) then they can be ressed.

It would eliminate the issue of always balancing toe to toe battles in WvW in the larger groups favor, and promote smaller more tactical squads to fight these larger groups because they have a chance at actually being victorious regardless of numbers. This also would not have a huge impact on the over all gameplay of guild wars, when people go down they can be ressed like normal.

Summary: Smaller populations are hurt by the down/dead state. It dictates that mass numbers = skill, and makes small squad gameplay irrelevant. A small adjustment to this state by perhaps setting in a timer before a dead player can be ressed again (unless waypoint) and a max of 1-2 people ressing downed states would give the smaller more coordinated groups a chance to be viable in WvW.

I’d like to hear all of your suggestions/opinions about the matter, for I do think that this small fix would greatly change WvW and the whole game for the better good. Please leave your suggestions, comments and criticisms.

They need to balance out the downed states.

Downed State 1) Damage
Downed State 2) Hard CC
Downed State 3) Class specific ability that does not prevent a stop, but slows down someone stomping you. Things like thief/warrior 3 should be replaced.
Downed State 4) heal

You currently have some classes than can prevent up to two stomp attempts and some that can hardly prevent even one attempt. I’m not the biggest fan of downed state since the revive ca kitten o high, but if it was balanced I could live with it.

MrChandMan.8253:

Lyonell.1753:

Down state is garbage, plain and simple, you’re doing your kitten in WvW, random elementalist jumps down, spams all his cool downs you “Down him” he turn into mist runs back into the keep/building lalala self res himself via #4 comes out and do the same again. Now a warrior comes out, he spams his cool downs you “down him” he throws his hammer and get’s killed right after cause there is nothing else he can do.

Thief and warrior fight, thief “downs” warrior and thief got 2%? of his hp left, thief stealths goes behind the warrior and finish him no problem. Same Scenario with warrior downing thief, warrior starts his lame animation, thief downs him due to high down damage warrior goes down, thief continies pressure, warrior res himself, if his frenzy goes off cool down, thief #4 while warrior is having his glorified summon of a lame stick > when he is about to hit thief tele’s behind him, warrior runs to him, he stealths, by the time warrior starts a 3rd attempt his vengance is over he dies anyways and the thief rally :P.

Big keep I down 5 people, they down 1 they focus fire that 1 and all 5 rally bam balance right there. Warrior drops his elite banner rally all 5… downed an elementalist he runs back to his friends for res so on. Mesmers got the worse down state imo. All they can do is clone to die… so yeah. Downed state only makes WvW lame as kitten, is good for pve maybe but pvp and WvW no way in hell.

Nop, the mechanic is bullkitten, I just explained why, if this is the best you can do as a “troll” I feel sorry for you…

Would be c0000l if a dev replied to this thread. I really want to know their opinion on this subject, like:
- we know downed state is a total fail in wvw and promotes zerg but we can’t rework/fix that cos we don’t have time to waste on this…we are too busy creating a new green quaggan backpack.
- we know downed state is a total fail in wvw and promotes zerg but we don’t care at all.
- we know downed state is a total fail in wvw and promotes zerg and we are going to fix this soon (probably in 2016).
- we have never realized that OMGGG thanks for this thread!

Ummm…. because it’s a part of the game….?

Fjandi.2516:

Would be c0000l if a dev replied to this thread. I really want to know their opinion on this subject, like:
- we know downed state is a total fail in wvw and promotes zerg but we can’t rework/fix that cos we don’t have time to waste on this…we are too busy creating a new green quaggan backpack.
- we know downed state is a total fail in wvw and promotes zerg but we don’t care at all.
- we know downed state is a total fail in wvw and promotes zerg and we are going to fix this soon (probably in 2016).
- we have never realized that OMGGG thanks for this thread!

Maybe they don’t think it is an issue? I don’t think it is.

It is not an issue for me and I have never thought of it as promoting zergs. It has never really hindered me when fighting outnumbered.

MethaneGas.8357:

Ummm…. because it’s a part of the game….?

Ah so they shouldn’t rework or fix something bad only cos “it’s a part of the game”. Lol thanks for your opinion.

Caliban.3176:

I have never thought of it as promoting zergs.

So basically it’s option number 4:
- we have never realized that OMGGG thanks for this thread!

Fjandi.2516:

Would be c0000l if a dev replied to this thread. I really want to know their opinion on this subject, like:
- we know downed state is a total fail in wvw and promotes zerg but we can’t rework/fix that cos we don’t have time to waste on this…we are too busy creating a new green quaggan backpack.
- we know downed state is a total fail in wvw and promotes zerg but we don’t care at all.
- we know downed state is a total fail in wvw and promotes zerg and we are going to fix this soon (probably in 2016).
- we have never realized that OMGGG thanks for this thread!

off the description page of wvw under Participation

WvW is designed to accommodate players that would not normally participate in PvP…wait…omg wow so they ment for it to be for people who dont wanna do normal pvp..ok so now that thats outa the way…..if you want downed state taken out of pvp thats fine but leave it alone in wvw because its actually just fine and just like killing any major army(zerg) part of killing that army(zerg) is going back and making sure all the injured(downed) people are dead…you know…so they dont take you guys later

downed state is not a total fail…its part of the game…as iv said b4 elite warrior banner also picks people up so why mess with it because the pvp elite think it should be just like pvp when its actually designed to not be just like pvp….tpvp and spvp are for small scale fights…wvw is for worlds vs worlds so of course your going to have big army fighting each other

Fjandi.2516:

Caliban.3176:

I have never thought of it as promoting zergs.

So basically it’s option number 4:
- we have never realized that OMGGG thanks for this thread!

No it is not option number 4.

I’ve read this thread, and still don’t believe it promotes zergs. You have not made me realize anything new and while I think all discussion is good to be had, this thread does not distinguish itself above others and does not need to be thanked.

There might be a fifth option. There is nothing big wrong with downed state.

I’ve lost some kills b/c of downed state (power res) and I’ve gotten some extra kills b/c of downed state (someone focused on healing their buddy instead of taking care of me). All in all it is a net neutral to the game as far as favoring one play style over another. However, it can add quite a bit of tension to the game which is generally a positive.

BTW, if you are running a focused gank group, it takes about another 3-5 seconds (sometimes less) to put a downed player down permanently via dps or spiking them. Realistically, it isn’t a big deal. If it is, you need to make some adjustments to your play style and then it won’t be anymore.

The downed state is awesome. Give players a reason to go balls deep. Frankly in WvW if you get downed its become a major burden for your team to res you. I always down someone, throw my thief SB 4 on their body. Then begin to trick shot and cluster bomb anyone to goes for the res. Usually results in a 2 for 1 kill

Fjandi.2516:

Ah so they shouldn’t rework or fix something bad only cos “it’s a part of the game”. Lol thanks for your opinion.

No problem
Reworking or fixing something that isn’t broken is a waste of energy and resource <3

The downed state doesn’t need to be removed, it just needs to be reworked. Especially in WvW.

To heck with down state, keep it or not, make no difference….get rid of rally. I am sick of having multiple people rally just because everyone is aoe’ing and one guy (usually underlevel) or some mob dies.

Ressing in combat is extremely powerful in most PvP games

Giving any terrible player the ability to do it, along with not actually have any penalty for being downed, along with having Random mobs instantly rally people is borderline stupid, and the worst mechanic i’ve seen in an MMO to date.

It is pointless to have a downed state in PvP… thats just my opinion…

On a more constructive note, if you insist keeping downed state why dont you make it more fair… (and i am sorry if this is mentioned before) why dont you put a disadvantage for the downed and rallied people?

i.e.; you re downed and rallied…

you will have only 75% of your HP max for “n” seconds/minutes
you will not be able to use your #4 #5 weapon skills for “n” seconds/minutes
you will not be able to use your elite skill or switch weapons for “n” seconds

you can however run away from the main combat area (i.e.; 4000 yards away) get out of combat for 10 secs and have your punishment removed… and reengage if you can…

that would be more logical if you ask me…

I am fine with the downed state idea. If it got removed I’d be okay with that too. That said, some classes are extremely powerful in downed state. That should be addressed.

Personally, I think having a downed state adds a totally different dimension to the game. It gives you a split second chance to turn the tide of the battle.

People can try to banner ress their mates, they can attempt to kill someone quickly to rally their team mate. It allows battles to ebb and flow, introducing sudden changes that can make it interesting and challenging.

I won’t see it as promoting zerging but rather at promoting organized play.

BenL.5312:

Personally, I think having a downed state adds a totally different dimension to the game. It gives you a split second chance to turn the tide of the battle.

People can try to banner ress their mates, they can attempt to kill someone quickly to rally their team mate. It allows battles to ebb and flow, introducing sudden changes that can make it interesting and challenging.

I won’t see it as promoting zerging but rather at promoting organized play.

A whole different dimension that nobody likes except casuals. Kinda like underwater fighting..that’s a whole new dimension for you..look how much people like it. The only dimension I see the downed state/AOE limit zerg friendly mechanics is a dimension called ESO.

XII.9401:

BenL.5312:

Personally, I think having a downed state adds a totally different dimension to the game. It gives you a split second chance to turn the tide of the battle.

People can try to banner ress their mates, they can attempt to kill someone quickly to rally their team mate. It allows battles to ebb and flow, introducing sudden changes that can make it interesting and challenging.

I won’t see it as promoting zerging but rather at promoting organized play.

A whole different dimension that nobody likes except casuals. Kinda like underwater fighting..that’s a whole new dimension for you..look how much people like it. The only dimension I see the downed state/AOE limit zerg friendly mechanics is a dimension called ESO.

I’m not sure why you jump to the conclusion that it is a dimension that only casuals like and why would they like it?

Perhaps some elaboration would help explain where you are coming from. You still have a chance to get the person full down while in that downed state.

Many of the assertions against the downed state appear to take on the tone of “I don’t like it, get rid of it because I say so”

You know that feel when you are outnumbered in a 2v1 and you pull through to down one enemy You think “Yes! I killed one, now I can focus on this other dude I’m so good!” but then the dude gets rezed in 2 seconds flat and then you die.

Downed state promotes low skill and strength in numbers rather than what we should be aiming for: high skill and effective gameplay.

I think its only power ressing that is the problem. Just make ressing available only to one player and thats it.

Xsorus.2507:

Ressing in combat is extremely powerful in most PvP games

Giving any terrible player the ability to do it, along with not actually have any penalty for being downed, along with having Random mobs instantly rally people is borderline stupid, and the worst mechanic i’ve seen in an MMO to date.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aviO-mBg6s8

Video says it all.
But the saddest part is that downed state is the only reason why most players engage in 2vs1 – 3vs1 fights. Because they know the chances are they are not gonna die. All they have to do is res eachother until the enemy is full of cooldowns or more allies show up.
Remove downed state and players will even run away from 3vs1 fights until they can come back with 20 other people and zerg you down.

And watching the vid I can’t avoid thinking about rangers old quickness stomp.
I know Anet said it was bad cus people “couldn’t react”, but IMO it was perfect and everyone should stomp at that speed naturally.
Zergs never stomp their enemies anyways, it would only give roamers the chance to kill enemies in outmanned fights.

As many people here I don’t think downed state needs to go, I actually think it could break the game if you take it out.

But I do have a problem with the rallying mechanic. It is a mechanic in which one bad player dying can revive an entire zerg of downed enemies. That in a game where there is no real way of filtering who is running alongside you, and even allow lvl1 characters play against lvl80 fully geared characters.

As many people here I don’t think downed state needs to go, I actually think it could break the game if you take it out.

But I do have a problem with the rallying mechanic. It is a mechanic in which one bad player dying can revive an entire zerg of downed enemies. That in a game where there is no real way of filtering who is running alongside you, and even allow lvl1 characters play against lvl80 fully geared characters.

Yes, rallying could use a little update.

This for example:
When you rally off of a player you get back a set percentage of your health based on the level of that character. for example 1/3 of that level. So a level 60 rally would see you come back with 20% health, a level 80 rally would equate with a 23% health. The lowest cap should be 10% so for all rally off of characters of level 30 or lower they would all rally with 10% health. 10% also applies to rallies of mobs (maybe 15% off of rallies from veteran npc’s like guards)

The numbers are just an example but it would be a better system. I would welcome a change to that system.

There are however a lot of things that need fixing before they touch on this. This is not a big issue, hardly an issue at all.

EDIT: This is just for first rallies of course, other downed penalties should still apply (scaled)

BenL.5312:

I won’t see it as promoting zerging but rather at promoting organized play.

Oh rly? Watch the video posted above, there’s nothing more to say. If you still don’t realize how stupid current downed state mechanic is in wvw…well nvm you know what i mean…

Engels.8537:

And watching the vid I can’t avoid thinking about rangers old quickness stomp.
I know Anet said it was bad cus people “couldn’t react”, but IMO it was perfect and everyone should stomp at that speed naturally.

Absolutely. It was much better back then. The old quickness stomp was awesome. To be honest i had never realized how bad ds was untill they nerfed quickness stomps.

Downed state is great, but the stomp is too slow. If you try to stomp in the middle of a fight, you get wtfpwned.

I’m sure they came up with the downed state because it kind of goes along with removing the triad. Unfortunately, it has made it even more difficult to solo or small man further encouraging “safety in numbers”. The only thing that bothers me is not getting credit for the kill in both xp & loot.

IMO, you should still get credit for the kill. They can leave everything as is, but if you drop someone to zero health, you should get credit for that.

I really think the downed state should be exclusive to whatever side is currently Outmanned. I agree with OP, it is a frusterating mechanic, and only encourages poor play in groups, “cuz my teammates will pick me up!”

I realize some PvE content would be unbearable to get through without it (due to bad players getting killed by bosses and a lack of trinity), but it has no purpose in PvP other than to prolong fights.

Nateeight.1498:

Agree,

Downed state is so kitten atm, it amazes me that some idiot allowed it to go live the way it is. Ranger downed state wtf ever. Mist form downed state run into a tower/keep wtf ever.

The hp pool of someone downed needs to be reduced by 75%, the damage caused by someone downed needs to be reduced by 75%, and the healing someone does to themselves while downed needs to be reduced by 75%. When a mfer gets downed, that mfer needs to die unless left alone. Not rally 10 times and spring back up like a gd Peter Pan kitten with 50% of their original hp pool.

Totally broken dumb kitten idea. What another person also said. All downed abilities need to be the same, and they need to be severely nerfed. When a kitten goes down, that kitten needs to die.

Fix it kitten

You sound mad I must ask why so mad? Izjusagame calm down don’t be mad it’ll all be all right…

Fjandi.2516:

Watch the video posted above, there’s nothing more to say. If you still don’t realize how stupid current downed state mechanic is in wvw…well nvm you know what i mean…

Oh noes, poor ranger tried to gank lone PvE lolzerk warrior, don’t want to save stability for stomp and don’t want to have any blind abilities to prevent anti-stomp knockdown. Lol’d at this video, really.

Rednik.3809:

Fjandi.2516:

Watch the video posted above, there’s nothing more to say. If you still don’t realize how stupid current downed state mechanic is in wvw…well nvm you know what i mean…

Oh noes, poor ranger tried to gank lone PvE lolzerk warrior, don’t want to save stability for stomp and don’t want to have any blind abilities to prevent anti-stomp knockdown. Lol’d at this video, really.

If anything, that video proves how bad mechanic downed state is. That ranger probably could have taken out two or three of them without it, but “lol” at any skillful play in Guild Wars 2, amiright?

McFribble.2349:

If anything, that video proves how bad mechanic downed state is. That ranger probably could have taken out two or three of them without it, but “lol” at any skillful play in Guild Wars 2, amiright?

Ganking PvE guys is now called a “skillful play”? Sure…

I am fine with the downed state system, what I disagree with strongly in WvW is rally.

I also think you shouldn’t be doing damage in downed state in wvw, you should be laying there trying to heal yourself up, with one stomp break, but I can live with the damage, rally kittens me off.

Rednik.3809:

McFribble.2349:

If anything, that video proves how bad mechanic downed state is. That ranger probably could have taken out two or three of them without it, but “lol” at any skillful play in Guild Wars 2, amiright?

Ganking PvE guys is now called a “skillful play”? Sure…

Yes…?

If a bunch of PvE players who have little clue how to PvP take on a PvP player, how is it NOT skillful play for the PvP player to come out on top? The PvP player is more skilled in PvP, therefore it is a skillful play.

You sure have a weird definition of the word if you think otherwise.

McFribble.2349:

If a bunch of PvE players who have little clue how to PvP take on a PvP player, how is it NOT skillful play for the PvP player to come out on top? The PvP player is more skilled in PvP, therefore it is a skillful play.

The problem is – i don’t see here “bunch of PvE players take on a PvP player”. I see wannabe lolpwnU ranger, who started the fight trying to gank lone PvE player and fail.

Removal of downed state would be the best thing that could happen to WvW.

Wait no. Actually second place, skill lag is still worse >.<

Fjandi.2516:

Absolutely. It was much better back then. The old quickness stomp was awesome. To be honest i had never realized how bad ds was untill they nerfed quickness stomps.

Oh man, same thing happens to me :/ but to be fair, quickness resses was pretty crappy.
I just wish everyone could stomp at +75% speed at least.

Rednik.3809:

Oh noes, poor ranger tried to gank lone PvE lolzerk warrior, don’t want to save stability for stomp and don’t want to have any blind abilities to prevent anti-stomp knockdown. Lol’d at this video, really.

Errr rangers only source of stability is our elite rampage as one and he’s using entangle instead, and our only blind source is raven’s F2, wich misses too much, and he’s running with drakes. That said, warriors kd is easily avoidable using melee pets so yeah, that wasn’t great.

Rednik.3809:

The problem is – i don’t see here “bunch of PvE players take on a PvP player”. I see wannabe lolpwnU ranger, who started the fight trying to gank lone PvE player and fail.

But assuming everyone soloing on a ranger is a wannabe who copypasted a build he saw on the forums cus people said it was OP it’s pretty lame too, and this guy is not one of them.

Besides that, I think what a lot of people here are saying is that a PvPer should be able to kill 2-3 PvErs who have no idea what they are doing, and we all agree that 1vs3 equally skilled players is always gonna end up the same way.

The most fun play style for me is either solo roaming or less then 10 players running around taking guards, camps and if its not upgraded a tower.

Going solo is always the most challenging because if you come up on 2v1, even if one is upleveled, you are at a disadvantage. It’s just that simple. I think you get better at your class when you always put yourself as an underdog, but it’s definitely a frustrating play style and it can be a slower way to rank up.

As far as the down state goes, I think it adds an interesting dynamic to the equation. This is coming from a rangers perspective, and I agree some down states are just TERRIBLE (sorry warriors, you just die) so I can completely understand why some players think its a really dumb mechanic.

It definitely encourages group play, which I think is wonderful. A lot of the design decisions in this game seem to be geared toward encouraging group play. Helping someone kill stuff at random is rewarded. In most other games, if someone randomly comes by and helps you, it very well costs a person experience or coin.

This game doesn’t do that. If you don’t want to be social, that’s fine, but this game doesn’t half your reward, it just gives to everyone.

After reading the entire thread, I would have to agree that balancing all the downed states and making rally a one time only thing would be a good way to make things a bit more fair.

I really like that people can stop and res each other, but it takes time and you can’t defend yourself while ressing someone else. If we were to take out DS, I’d still want the ability to res the fallen put in.

A lot of times, I find that I die trying to be a hero, but other times I really am a hero and we’re able to successfully retreat with most of our numbers.

As I originally said, it adds an interesting dynamic, and until the person is completely dead, they aren’t dead. I do agree doing damage while in DS is pretty kitten, and some classes definitely need some help while others a nerf.

I enjoy the down state. I normally run around in a group of 2 or 3, and down state allows us to try and take large groups if we coordinate and stun/push anyone trying to stomp and res people who are down. As for the abilities in the down state, I really don’t think they are any more unbalanced then the normal abilities.

A lot of people seem to be going after the semantics of the down state. Would it make you feel better if the health pull would be increased by the down state hp, and you would go into the down state not at 0 but once you hit the down state hp?

Lol Jokes, thread isn’t dead… it was just downed.

Let me address some common points

1) How does downed state promote zerging?
Downing makes anything 1v anything > 1 nigh on impossible (varying difficulties between classes though) and even gives massive advantages to some classes even in 1v1s. This means numbers usually come out on top 90% of the time. Therefore it pushes to find strength in numbers. This then has other implications like killing any form of tactical play whatsoever… and to think Anet wants to push guild wars 2 into the e-sport scene. Good joke Anet, maybe you guys should be comedians instead of developing games.

2) It’s fun being able to revive downed players and makes things more fluid (or realistic? I dunno wtf some people are on about)
I said take out downed state, not the ability to revive. You can still revive people when they’re fully dead. Now this would make it a lot more realistic…